Item Duping

[Smapla]

Game morals cannot be compared to real life. That's the end of the story.

 

Oh, and I was playing Devil's Advocate; I was just emphasizing someone's point that if you made an argument against game morals on this forum, you'll have a lot of people getting pissed off and comparing you to a sociopath.

It is a form of psychopathy. Basically you are saying that a layer of abstraction allows you to do almost anything. If you were playing a board game in the park, and I came by and wiped all you pieces of the board, would that be ok because its only a game? If you were playing a sport, and I walked out on the field and started sunbathing, or interducing a bunch of new balls to the court, that would be just fine, because its only a game? Why even bother to have rules in games then only allowed 5 people on the court at a time I DONT THINK SO!!!. At this point every game just will break down into a brawl.

 

This is the same damn excuse that lets people make predatory loans and a host of other indirect crimes. Because the person on the computer/piece of paper is just an abstraction, a thing instead of a person, and not something that involves a moral decision. The break down of the banking system is a direct result of people performing cause never thinking/seeing/carring about effect.

 

The intersession of a game between yours and my direct interaction does not change the fact that we are interacting one human being to another. And as such, that interaction, no matter what the mediary, is still governed by the rules of basic moral conduct in interactions between people. We can argue about the rights and responsibilities that are involved in our interaction, but do not think that we are not moral agents or moral patients just because we are in a game.

 

You are awesome.

[la la la]

Game morals cannot be compared to real life. That's the end of the story.

 

Oh, and I was playing Devil's Advocate; I was just emphasizing someone's point that if you made an argument against game morals on this forum, you'll have a lot of people getting pissed off and comparing you to a sociopath.

It is a form of psychopathy. Basically you are saying that a layer of abstraction allows you to do almost anything. If you were playing a board game in the park, and I came by and wiped all you pieces of the board, would that be ok because its only a game? If you were playing a sport, and I walked out on the field and started sunbathing, or interducing a bunch of new balls to the court, that would be just fine, because its only a game? Why even bother to have rules in games then only allowed 5 people on the court at a time I DONT THINK SO!!!. At this point every game just will break down into a brawl.

 

This is the same damn excuse that lets people make predatory loans and a host of other indirect crimes. Because the person on the computer/piece of paper is just an abstraction, a thing instead of a person, and not something that involves a moral decision. The break down of the banking system is a direct result of people performing cause never thinking/seeing/carring about effect.

 

The intersession of a game between yours and my direct interaction does not change the fact that we are interacting one human being to another. And as such, that interaction, no matter what the mediary, is still governed by the rules of basic moral conduct in interactions between people. We can argue about the rights and responsibilities that are involved in our interaction, but do not think that we are not moral agents or moral patients just because we are in a game.

 

Oh my goodness, well put.

 

On a slightly off-topic note, it upsets me when people say 'end of story" or "/topic" in their post, like their post is the definitive final word in the argument. It just seems pretty arrogant to me.

[ArtemisCatal]

Game morals cannot be compared to real life. That's the end of the story.

 

Oh, and I was playing Devil's Advocate; I was just emphasizing someone's point that if you made an argument against game morals on this forum, you'll have a lot of people getting pissed off and comparing you to a sociopath.

It is a form of psychopathy. Basically you are saying that a layer of abstraction allows you to do almost anything. If you were playing a board game in the park, and I came by and wiped all you pieces of the board, would that be ok because its only a game? If you were playing a sport, and I walked out on the field and started sunbathing, or interducing a bunch of new balls to the court, that would be just fine, because its only a game? Why even bother to have rules in games then only allowed 5 people on the court at a time I DONT THINK SO!!!. At this point every game just will break down into a brawl.

 

This is the same damn excuse that lets people make predatory loans and a host of other indirect crimes. Because the person on the computer/piece of paper is just an abstraction, a thing instead of a person, and not something that involves a moral decision. The break down of the banking system is a direct result of people performing cause never thinking/seeing/carring about effect.

 

The intersession of a game between yours and my direct interaction does not change the fact that we are interacting one human being to another. And as such, that interaction, no matter what the mediary, is still governed by the rules of basic moral conduct in interactions between people. We can argue about the rights and responsibilities that are involved in our interaction, but do not think that we are not moral agents or moral patients just because we are in a game.

 

You are awesome.

 

:wink:

I have a high fever from bronchitis and dimly in the background I hear my ethics professor jumping up and down clapping. Oh, I hope it's just the drugs, or the lack of sleep.

[canadiansmurf]

And as such, that interaction, no matter what the mediary, is still governed by the rules of basic moral conduct in interactions between people.

 

Are you on crack?

 

In this game we kill other players for fun. In the real world PVP would be illegal.

 

 

 

Another person brought up racism, at one time it was legal and encouraged to be racist.

 

Morals change with time, nothing is absolute.

 

 

Cheating on an online game is like telling a white lie. It doesn't harm anyone.

[Jehosaphat]

And as such, that interaction, no matter what the mediary, is still governed by the rules of basic moral conduct in interactions between people.

 

Are you on crack?

 

In this game we kill other players for fun. In the real world PVP would be illegal.

 

 

 

Another person brought up racism, at one time it was legal and encouraged to be racist.

 

Morals change with time, nothing is absolute.

 

 

Cheating on an online game is like telling a white lie. It doesn't harm anyone.

In RS we kill other players for fun, but only on specific servers. When the human race hits interplanetary galactic colonization, you can sure as heck bet that there will be planets coated with total anarchy. And you can bet that I have no intention of stepping foot on those planets.

 

It's still legal and, in some cases, encouraged to be racist. Acting upon racism, however, is now more restrained.

 

You're right-ish with the "nothing is absolute" line. The only thing that is absolute is that nothing is absolute.

 

And while cheating on an online game may not directly harm anyone, it can cause anger and depression in some cases, which may (or may not) end up being enough to push someone to do something they normally wouldn't, and, in that process of acting upon those negative emotions, harm someone.

[predator1030]

I can bet a lot of people are gonna make a killing when the bolts stabilize and then start rising like crazy. I might be one of these people :P

[Defy]

And as such, that interaction, no matter what the mediary, is still governed by the rules of basic moral conduct in interactions between people.

 

Are you on crack?

 

In this game we kill other players for fun. In the real world PVP would be illegal.

 

 

 

Another person brought up racism, at one time it was legal and encouraged to be racist.

 

Morals change with time, nothing is absolute.

 

 

Cheating on an online game is like telling a white lie. It doesn't harm anyone.

 

Unless your durial and you go around killing everyone in w2 falador :P

[canadiansmurf]

And while cheating on an online game may not directly harm anyone, it can cause anger and depression in some cases, which may (or may not) end up being enough to push someone to do something they normally wouldn't, and, in that process of acting upon those negative emotions, harm someone.

 

Too convoluted.

[ArtemisCatal]

And as such, that interaction, no matter what the mediary, is still governed by the rules of basic moral conduct in interactions between people.

 

Are you on crack?

 

In this game we kill other players for fun. In the real world PVP would be illegal.

 

 

 

Another person brought up racism, at one time it was legal and encouraged to be racist.

 

Morals change with time, nothing is absolute.

 

 

Cheating on an online game is like telling a white lie. It doesn't harm anyone.

 

As for PvP, you are choosing to enter that environment, no one is forcing you to. A person knows that they can be killed or can kill. The difference between PvP and murder is the fact YOU COME BACK. You may have lost your stuff, but you knew you could lose your stuff, just like the other person knew they could lose there stuff. If isn’t murder, it’s GAMBLING!!! You are going in to an area, betting that your skills and your character are better than the person that comes along. Some times you win, sometimes you lose, but PvP does not have anything to do with the dynamic in the rest of the game.

 

And I would say that not all cheats are created equal. Being able to clip through walls is one thing, making hundreds of thousands of bolt that totally screw over anyone who was actually making and selling bolts for exp and money is another. Not all lies are created equal, not all cheats are created equal.

 

And I also think that we can look back and say that morals of another time are immoral. That’s like saying I can't condemn slavery, or apartheid, or racism or sexism because they were “artifacts of their time”. Sure, it the study of history you should look and contemplate actions in the morality of the time, but this is not history, this is ethics. And philosophers and ethicists have been searching for MILLENNIA, dating back to Plato and Socrates for an “absolute morality”. Just because we have not reached it yet, we should see as a failure of our time, and not a failure of there being an absolute morality. Maybe there is, maybe there isn't, but that is not reason not to strive to live as moral a life as we can, withing the best moral framework we can reason out.

[canadiansmurf]

As for PvP, you are choosing to enter that environment, no one is forcing you to. A person knows that they can be killed or can kill. The difference between PvP and murder is the fact YOU COME BACK. You may have lost your stuff, but you knew you could lose your stuff, just like the other person knew they could lose there stuff. If isnt murder, its GAMBLING!!! You are going in to an area, betting that your skills and your character are better than the person that comes along. Some times you win, sometimes you lose, but PvP does not have anything to do with the dynamic in the rest of the game.

And I would say that not all cheats are created equal. Being able to clip through walls is one thing, making hundreds of thousands of bolt that totally screw over anyone who was actually making and selling bolts for exp and money is another. Not all lies are created equal, not all cheats are created equal.

 

And I also think that we can look back and say that morals of another time are immoral. Thats like saying I can't condemn slavery, or apartheid, or racism or sexism because they were artifacts of their time. Sure, it the study of history you should look and contemplate actions in the morality of the time, but this is not history, this is ethics. And philosophers and ethicists have been searching for MILLENNIA, dating back to Plato and Socrates for an absolute morality. Just because we have not reached it yet, we should see as a failure of our time, and not a failure of there being and absolute morality. Maybe there is, maybe there isn't, but that is not reason not to strive to live as moral a life as we can, withing the best moral framework we can reason out.

 

 

 

I can tell you didn't get an A in your ethics class.

 

 

totally screw over anyone who was actually making and selling bolts for exp and money is another.

 

Merchant clans do this all the time. Maybe not with bolts but plenty of other items.

 

 

Not all lies are created equal, not all cheats are created equal.

Exactly, imho this bolt bug is harmless to others.

 

Bolt prices were too high.

 

Bolt's are a consumable.

 

The market will reach an equilibrium for bolts in probably less than 6 months.

 

It's not like the extra coins entering the economy from bolts will significantly affect the market.

It will be a minor effect.

 

There are so many coins already entering this game through alching, bots, drops and all that.

[Bladewing]

These bolts will be alched for coins.

 

Why does everyone [bleep] about PvP inflation, but inflation from bug abuse is not a problem.

:wall:

 

EDIT: fixed my obscenity.

[ArtemisCatal]

As for PvP, you are choosing to enter that environment, no one is forcing you to. A person knows that they can be killed or can kill. The difference between PvP and murder is the fact YOU COME BACK. You may have lost your stuff, but you knew you could lose your stuff, just like the other person knew they could lose there stuff. If isnt murder, its GAMBLING!!! You are going in to an area, betting that your skills and your character are better than the person that comes along. Some times you win, sometimes you lose, but PvP does not have anything to do with the dynamic in the rest of the game.

And I would say that not all cheats are created equal. Being able to clip through walls is one thing, making hundreds of thousands of bolt that totally screw over anyone who was actually making and selling bolts for exp and money is another. Not all lies are created equal, not all cheats are created equal.

 

And I also think that we can look back and say that morals of another time are immoral. Thats like saying I can't condemn slavery, or apartheid, or racism or sexism because they were artifacts of their time. Sure, it the study of history you should look and contemplate actions in the morality of the time, but this is not history, this is ethics. And philosophers and ethicists have been searching for MILLENNIA, dating back to Plato and Socrates for an absolute morality. Just because we have not reached it yet, we should see as a failure of our time, and not a failure of there being and absolute morality. Maybe there is, maybe there isn't, but that is not reason not to strive to live as moral a life as we can, withing the best moral framework we can reason out.

 

 

 

I can tell you didn't get an A in your ethics class.

 

 

totally screw over anyone who was actually making and selling bolts for exp and money is another.

 

Merchant clans do this all the time. Maybe not with bolts but plenty of other items.

 

 

Not all lies are created equal, not all cheats are created equal.

Exactly, imho this bolt bug is harmless to others.

 

Bolt prices were too high.

 

Bolt's are a consumable.

 

The market will reach an equilibrium for bolts in probably less than 6 months.

 

It's not like the extra coins entering the economy from bolts will significantly affect the market.

It will be a minor effect.

 

There are so many coins already entering this game through alching, bots, drops and all that.

One action of debatable morality (merchant clans) does not magical cancel out another action (in this case bolt duping). They are totally unrelated issues.

 

Bolts prices being to high is a debatable opinion. I would be inclined to agree just I havent really looked into the situation all that much.

 

And so you wish to argue that the short term harm of some (people who make and sell bolts) vs the shorter gain of some rangers who get cheaper bolts, and faster range exp because they can afford better bolts. Ok, now we are down to dilemma. One action had both good consequences and bad consequences for people. So I guess the morality is depended upon whether greater harm, or greater good happened. Only time will tell, and without research on a large percentage of people affected, we will never know whether the greater good or the greater harm triumphed. Because I agree, barring action by Jagex, the market will stabilize after all the bolts are consumed not counting the extra cash from hi-alching, etc. which is forever present unless died with/dropped and not picked up.So based on your ethics system, this too is based on an opinion of whether the harm is greater than the aid.

 

I would say the harm is greater because it violates the social contract of the game. The rules of the game, applicable equality to everyone is what a game is about. Breach them, and you have breached your word to abide by the rules to every single person in the game.

 

Edit: and I would also tell you to leave personal attack out of it. We can have differences of opinion, even differences in the moral philosophies we follow, without there being that.

Edited February 25, 2010 by ArtemisCatal

[ArtemisCatal]

I came up with a better example. This bolt dupe, is like using steroids in baseball. Your team wins games, which makes the team and the fans happy. It makes the owner happy because more fans buy tickets. The games are may be more interesting because of more home runs/action. But is it right to use steroids? Even though it violates the rules of the game? Even if it violates the spirit of the game (in this context , as in RS, I would argue spirit being the relationship between the fans (RS= the players) and the game. Their time/monetary/emotional investment in the game. It is an entangle, but I would argue, an important aspect of the game and the social contract within the game. It is the reason people feel betrayed when their sports heroes cheat.)?

[Bladewing]

^ Baseball analogy is not even CLOSE to what the dupe is.

[deletemeplease]

My views on it are neutral.

I myself have not used this glitch, and had no plans to, as with any other glitch.

I believe in playing the game fairly.

 

I also believe that the ones who did abuse the glitch, that karma will return the favour, whether it is in a banning, or a conscious nagging in their head.

 

Either way, I know I make my money and bolts truthfully, so I will continue playing happily and truthfully.

[ArtemisCatal]

^ Baseball analogy is not even CLOSE to what the dupe is.

 

Steroids give the baseball player strength to play baseball

 

Duped bolts gives the runescape player more economic strength, a major factor, whether we like it or not, in playing Runescape. The more money, the more things you can buy, the more you can level buyable skills. Just having better armor makes training go faster, not mentioning buying herbs, seeds, wood, bow strings, etc.

 

It is a different type of strength, but it is someone getting strength of stronger/faster/better gameplay over a supposedly equal under the rules, player. It’s rigging the game in one persons favor based on breaking the rules.

 

edit: I’m going to try to go to sleep now. I’ll probably be up in a few hours, having been positionally asphyxiated by my bronchitis (every time I lie down too long, it feels like I’m suffocating). But it’s worth a shot. Good night/day, etc everyone.

Edited February 25, 2010 by ArtemisCatal

[knight10071]

Jagex is definately banning/suspending accounts for this:

 

 

At the time of writing my woodcutting rank has risen by 116. Normally it decreases by about 300 daily. This means there have been at least 200 bannings of people with a woodcutting level of 83 or higher.

[Mercifull]

I checked my Runemonkey too. I have also gone up in ranks for skills I didn't train yesterday. Unfortunatly my details updated half hour ago so I can only see the rank changes from the past 34mins. At least 1 99 fletcher has been banned in the last half hour :P

[Assume Nothing]

I checked my Runemonkey too. I have also gone up in ranks for skills I didn't train yesterday. Unfortunatly my details updated half hour ago so I can only see the rank changes from the past 34mins. At least 1 99 fletcher has been banned in the last half hour :P

Definately alot of people abusing this. I think it would be a nice idea to check the hiscores of those who gained mage ranks, because it was the enc hantment of the bolts which was the part which gained any xp. I think even bots started abusing this bug. Luckily for me, as with most bugs, I wouldn't even know about it and it would be patched. I'd be wayyy too tempted.

 

Hmm.

[bedman]

These bolts will be alched for coins.

 

Why does everyone [bleep] about PvP inflation, but inflation from bug abuse is not a problem.

:wall:

 

EDIT: fixed my obscenity.

How much does a bolt alch for? I dont think they will drop this low that alching would become a viable option.

[Bladewing]

These bolts will be alched for coins.

 

Why does everyone [bleep] about PvP inflation, but inflation from bug abuse is not a problem.

:wall:

 

EDIT: fixed my obscenity.

How much does a bolt alch for? I dont think they will drop this low that alching would become a viable option.

Onyx Bolts (e)

Grand Exchange Price: 8833

High Alchemy Value: 9000

[ilovecuttingyews]

These bolts will be alched for coins.

Why does everyone [bleep] about PvP inflation, but inflation from bug abuse is not a problem.

:wall:

EDIT: fixed my obscenity.

How much does a bolt alch for? I dont think they will drop this low that alching would become a viable option.

He's talking about onyx bolts I believe which alch for 9k each. If people were able to take 1 bolt and turn it into 12, that means they introduced 99k per dupe. People could do litterally thousands per hour. I think a good estimate is 10k/hour because at 7k ea people made 60M/hour profit (see the vid). So at 10k bolts per hour * 9k per bolt = 90M PURE GP introduced into the game PER HOUR. That is far more then the PVP tricking. Sure, not as many people could do onyx bolts as could trick, but the fact still remains that it introduced loads of GP into the game.

[Everyonedies]

So did the glitch work by casting enchant on one bolt and that in turn "dupped" 11 new (e)bolts + 1(e)bolt that you already had? I always read these forums from work so im not able to look at the utube vids and some pictures that other users post.

[Bladewing]

The bug involved "tricking" the enchant bolt spell into making 12 enchanted bolts but only taking away 1 unenchanted bolt.

[Danqazmlp]

I am still disappointed with the amount of people here who say they would cheat if they got the chance. I think the comparison to real world games is the best I have seen here, I will remember that one.

 

Jagex need to re--enforce the reading of, and sticking to the rules with the players.