12-Apr-2010 - Dungeoneering Skill!

[Dragonlordjl]

Frankly, I don't give a rip towards this whole debate. I got a new piece of content, and I'm gonna enjoy it. Kthxbye.

 

 

It is content geared for F2P more it can't be that great.

 

Now if they only surprise us with one more real new member skill this year it would be nice. :wall:

 

 

 

 

 

It is a mini-game and it's pure marketing to call it a skill. It isn't a coincidence that mini-games were renamed activities.

Hopefully the next skill in the year 1013 won't be a minigame so they can be forgiven.

 

 

Personally I think they are just bored with creating Runescape.

They should create a new game, oh wait they are.

 

 

 

I sort of agree with Queltar.

They are insulting RS players by tacking on a flimsy veneer of a skill to a minigame.

But really who cares?

If you like the new content use it, if not avoid it.

 

There are a bunch of skills I never level.

 

You won't like every piece of content.

 

 

And jagex will never admit that this is a minigame even though it is.

 

Well, they pretty much destroyed the "F2P" aspect of the skill by tacking on the ridiculous "You're above X arbitrary level, therefore we will dock most of your exp as a penalty" addendum. Also, I don't see how this skill is an advertisement for P2P... None of the stuff you get in the dungeon can be used outside the dungeon, so it's really not advertising members' content. Also, you can only go up to t5 equipment in the dungeon in F2P, so again... It doesn't advertise members' content.

[Omali]

It is a mini-game and it's pure marketing to call it a skill. It isn't a coincidence that mini-games were renamed activities.

Hopefully the next skill in the year 1013 won't be a minigame so they can be forgiven.

 

But I couldn't afford the internet a thousand years ago!

 

Personally I think they are just bored with creating Runescape.

They should create a new game, oh wait they are.

 

I disagree. I think they're trying to do what Blizzard is doing with World of Warcraft: Reinvent it. Renaming stuff that doesn't need to be renamed.

 

I will agree, calling Dungeoneering a skill is a bit of a stretch, but an expansion pack? Now you're pushing it.

 

I sort of agree with Queltar.

They are insulting RS players by tacking on a flimsy veneer of a skill to a minigame.

But really who cares?

If you like the new content use it, if not avoid it.

 

I don't see it as much of an insult.

 

There are a bunch of skills I never level.

 

I haven't touched crafting since around Enakhra's Lament release.

 

You won't like every piece of content.

 

I haven't used the past two distractions and diversions (summoning and the one before it) because I find them useless, cumbersome updates that advertise to no one.

 

And jagex will never admit that this is a minigame even though it is.

 

Agree to disagree.

[AlexRose]

Ever since the "fire cape debacle", your debating skills have really taken a plunge into the abyss. It seems like everything you post is a simple hand-wave without any facts of your own to back up your stance. All hand-waving and ad infinitum fallacies, with a bit of personal attacks mixed in.

 

I've noticed this as well. I used to enjoy seeing your intelligent imput on updates (if you remember, you were a large contributor to REMOVE Updates), but now you're a lot more affrontive and tend to skirt factual argument in favor of generalization throwing. I'm not sure whether this is intentional (trolling) or for other reasons, but either way its a tad dissapointing to see it happening.

 

 

Since we're so insistent to remain on the "Minigame vs. Skill" topic, could we actually attempt to define both as they currently are in the context of Runescape? What precisely is a skill, and what precisely is a minigame? If we can agree on some indentifiable qualities, then we can actually make some headway on this debate.

 

 

 

 

It isn't idiotic at all. The idea behind having doors that connot be opened by one player, is to encourage you to go in a team with diverse skills. It is meant as a party skill. You get rewarded for having a party with skills spread out and not having one person do all the work.

 

The problem is that element still applies to an entire team, in addition to solo play. It's helpful somewhat to have a larger amount of skills, in the fact that a team would be more likely to have the random level requirement, but unless you all have level 90+ skills this effect can still occur. This is even worse in F2p, where an impassable door is far more likely to occur, even if your party has well rounded F2p skills. The fact that it adds a large amount of unpredicability and randomness to potential expirience gained, in upwards of at least 25%, is in fact a design flaw that should be fixed.

[Myweponsg00d]

Translation: I can't understand it. I can't refute it. Therefore I will belittle it.

 

Cowardice noted.

It's not cowardice, it's simply a decision that spending an hour properly responding to your overly verbose post is not worth my time. Anyone who knows me knows I hardly shy away from an argument, but when the other party doesn't even make an effort to make concise, well-thought-out points, it's not worh the bother. Nobody read your post, and they wouldn't read an equally lengthy reply; thus, the only reason to write it would be to convince you, and sorry pal, you're just not that important. ;)

 

The points ARE concise. They are logical, they are well stated.

 

The phrase you are looking for is "Omg theres just too much" which just shows how many arguments can be made against your wildly irrational viewpoint.

 

 

The mere fact of being dogpiled doesn't make the person in the minority a troll. I post what I do because I believe it, not to get a rise out of a bunch of obnoxious jerks -- that's just a side benefit. ;)

 

Nobody would be saying anything if you just said "My opinion is simply that: an opinion. The things I am saying are just things that I choose to believe, and there very well may not be any logical reason to think the way that I do."

 

But you are spreading your opinion asthough it is an objective truth. It isnt, it isnt rational, it isnt reasonable.

 

This debate is like when I get into an argument with a creationist. They try to rationalize their belief in god. They try to provide evidence for the failure of evolution. But none of it is true, or rational at all. Eventually they realize that what they percieve as the truth is simply a perception and not a logical truth.

[qeltar]

I've noticed this as well. I used to enjoy seeing your intelligent imput on updates (if you remember, you were a large contributor to REMOVE Updates), but now you're a lot more affrontive and tend to skirt factual argument in favor of generalization throwing. I'm not sure whether this is intentional (trolling) or for other reasons, but either way its a tad dissapointing to see it happening.

Can you people PLEASE give this crap a rest? This thread is not about me, and nothing has changed. Yes, I'm an opinionated loudmouth, and people always think I'm a wonderful commentator when they agree with what I'm saying, and an annoying troll when they don't. I don't have time to respond to every single post made, and I *won't* respond to people who flame me constantly.

 

Just drop it, please. Anyone who thinks I'm so awful can avail themselves of the excellent ignore feature on this board. I do.

 

Since we're so insistent to remain on the "Minigame vs. Skill" topic, lets actually attempt to define both as they currently are in the context of Runescape. What precisely is a skill, and what precisely is a minigame? If we can agree on some indentifiable qualities, then we can actually make some headway on this debate.

As far as I am concerned, a skill should be something that, when you train it, you gain a ... skill ... an ability that allows you to play the rest of the game in a new and innovative way. It should be something that gives a new way to get resources useful in other skills, or enables capabilities that dynamically aler how the game works. The rewards should be directly tied to the training of the skill, either in the form of relevant material outputs or unlocking the ability to play differently.

 

A minigame is an optional activity that is separate from most of existing gameplay. It primarily uses existing skills in a new or interesting way. It does not unlock new capabilities. It does not provide direct rewards as a consequence of doing it, but usually rather as specific item rewards after accomplishing a certain number of repetitions of the activity.

 

Now, does this mean there can't be any overlap between these, or there's something wrong with making a skill that's like a minigame? No. But really, a new skill should add a new dimension to existing gameplay, not be something entirely separate from it. That's where I think this largely fails.

 

I'm now level 50 Dungeoneering. What have I accomplished? The ability to train more of Dungeoneering -- that's it. Even if they throw in a few new trinkets at lower levels, this will not feel like a skill to me. It will feel like I am using existing skills to get trinkets: a minigame.

 

Where's the creativity? Why didn't they make it so X level in Dungeoneering helps you in dungeons in "real RS"? That would have made this much more arguably a real skill.

[Emmentail]

I'm gonna say it once again. Stealing Creation with monsters, but worse rewards. Infact no rewards until you hit at least 130k xp. Assuming you get 13k tokens at that xp which is unlikely because of the brilliant rounding down that Jagex performs.

[Zepheras]

I'm now level 50 Dungeoneering. What have I accomplished? The ability to train more of Dungeoneering -- that's it. Even if they throw in a few new trinkets at lower levels, this will not feel like a skill to me. It will feel like I am using existing skills to get trinkets: a minigame.

 

Where's the creativity? Why didn't they make it so X level in Dungeoneering helps you in dungeons in "real RS"? That would have made this much more arguably a real skill.

 

I'll add one more point; you don't gain anything to help your dungeoneering experience either. Qeltar's point can be refuted with a comparison to the mechanics of Slayer, but at least slayer levels (or sometimes, points) unlocks slayer stuff to help slayers.

 

 

Anyone who's 100% going to attend the live Q&A session? I'm hoping that someone can post on my behalf since I can't make it.

[qeltar]

A real Dungeoneering skill could have easily been incorporated into real RS.

 

Level 9 - You learn how to enter the Lumbridge caves without a light source.

Level 17 - Gain a +5 Agility capability bonus on dungeon-based obstacles.

Level 23 - Slayer creatures in dungeons can still not be damaged without appropriate gear, but will no longer damage you if you attack them

Level 29 - Protection prayers used in dungeons drain prayer points 10% slower.

Level 35 - Increased chance of gem drops mining in underground areas.

Level 44 - You learn how to bypass the vines in the Brimhaven dungeon without needing an axe

...

Level 94 - Your expertise in Dungeoneering allows you to open the doors to Waterbirth Dungeon by yourself.

 

And so on. That's off the top of my head in five minutes. They couldn't have done something much better over the course of two years?

[Zepheras]

A real Dungeoneering skill could have easily been incorporated into real RS.

 

Level 9 - You learn how to enter the Lumbridge caves without a light source.

Level 17 - Gain a +5 Agility capability bonus on dungeon-based obstacles.

Level 23 - Slayer creatures in dungeons can still not be damaged without appropriate gear, but will no longer damage you if you attack them

Level 29 - Protection prayers used in dungeons drain prayer points 10% slower.

Level 35 - Increased chance of gem drops mining in underground areas.

Level 44 - You learn how to bypass the vines in the Brimhaven dungeon without needing an axe

...

Level 94 - Your expertise in Dungeoneering allows you to open the doors to Waterbirth Dungeon by yourself.

 

And so on. That's off the top of my head in five minutes. They couldn't have done something much better over the course of two years?

 

I'm impressed with the concept, and also worried that Jagex might somehow make them unlockable using tokens instead of just giving it to us.

[Kiriyama]

A real Dungeoneering skill could have easily been incorporated into real RS.

 

Level 9 - You learn how to enter the Lumbridge caves without a light source. More suited to Magic, being able to see in the dark.

Level 17 - Gain a +5 Agility capability bonus on dungeon-based obstacles.Okay, I'll give you this.

Level 23 - Slayer creatures in dungeons can still not be damaged without appropriate gear, but will no longer damage you if you attack them More suited as a high level Slayer perk

Level 29 - Protection prayers used in dungeons drain prayer points 10% slower. More of a Prayer update

Level 35 - Increased chance of gem drops mining in underground areas. Higher mining perk

Level 44 - You learn how to bypass the vines in the Brimhaven dungeon without needing an axe More suited to agility

...

Level 94 - Your expertise in Dungeoneering allows you to open the doors to Waterbirth Dungeon by yourself.Crafting or Magic, crafting you create something from stone that lasts 10 minutes on that spot, or with Magic you create a double that disappears once you go past

 

And so on. That's off the top of my head in five minutes. They couldn't have done something much better over the course of two years?

 

Okay..

 

Bolded some alternatives.

[Guthorm]

A real Dungeoneering skill could have easily been incorporated into real RS.

 

Level 9 - You learn how to enter the Lumbridge caves without a light source.

Level 17 - Gain a +5 Agility capability bonus on dungeon-based obstacles.

Level 23 - Slayer creatures in dungeons can still not be damaged without appropriate gear, but will no longer damage you if you attack them

Level 29 - Protection prayers used in dungeons drain prayer points 10% slower.

Level 35 - Increased chance of gem drops mining in underground areas.

Level 44 - You learn how to bypass the vines in the Brimhaven dungeon without needing an axe

...

Level 94 - Your expertise in Dungeoneering allows you to open the doors to Waterbirth Dungeon by yourself.

 

And so on. That's off the top of my head in five minutes. They couldn't have done something much better over the course of two years?

 

Hey thats not a bad idea, the concept is pretty good.

 

One thing about the token system, you know what it reminds me of? The emblem of frost in WoW, you raid dungeons and you get the emblems from bosses aka completeing a dungeon. You then trade the emblems for gear/potions/food/etc, it seems to be working pretty well and nobody complained about how unrealistic these are. Why is this a big problem here? I mean it would be pretty simple for Jagex to say "the items you collected through this dungeons have to be destoryed, they formed these crystals and if you give them to that guy over there, he will make something awesome for you." Would it be better then?

[qeltar]

The specifics don't matter. The point is to have your Dungeoneering level help you in ... dungeons! Then this could at least be argued to be a skill.

 

Sure, all of the items I listed also involve other skills, but that's sorta the point. And really, even that hastily prepared list is a lot more relevant to what you do in training the skill than the current rewards. Let's see... I run through dungeons and kill bosses to get a bag that lets me hold gems? Or something that gives me prayer XP? Somewhat amusing given not one single gem exists in Daemonheim, and bones are the last thing I pick up after killing a creature there! ;)

[Myweponsg00d]

A real Dungeoneering skill could have easily been incorporated into real RS.

 

Level 9 - You learn how to enter the Lumbridge caves without a light source.

Level 17 - Gain a +5 Agility capability bonus on dungeon-based obstacles.

Level 23 - Slayer creatures in dungeons can still not be damaged without appropriate gear, but will no longer damage you if you attack them

Level 29 - Protection prayers used in dungeons drain prayer points 10% slower.

Level 35 - Increased chance of gem drops mining in underground areas.

Level 44 - You learn how to bypass the vines in the Brimhaven dungeon without needing an axe

...

Level 94 - Your expertise in Dungeoneering allows you to open the doors to Waterbirth Dungeon by yourself.

 

And so on. That's off the top of my head in five minutes. They couldn't have done something much better over the course of two years?

 

These are great ideas. Not really going to lie. I'm not saying that it wouldn't be nice if having the skill directly affected gameplay like that. But I think theres a difference between nice and necessary.

 

But you are calling it necessary. Again, I ask you what the difference is between the "lack" that dungeoneering has, and Slayer. The only thing that a Slayer level lets you do is Slay in different ways. Slayer isn't worked into other skills. In fact, the only in-game benefit of the skill is making money to use on other skills. You dont even need to have Slayer to use the whip.

 

In dung, you dont make money, but you still get acess to 20-some new features that you seem to be ignoring. And I think that there is a good aspect in the fact that you NEED to get these items yourself.

[Kiriyama]

So you don't pick up the bones in there, making the Bonecrusher useless?

 

If anything, the Bonecrusher is one of the more worthwhile awards, giving a slight amount of prayer experience for each kill of something that gives bones. I could have used something like that whilst Slaying.

[Zepheras]

 

Hey thats not a bad idea, the concept is pretty good.

 

One thing about the token system, you know what it reminds me of? The emblem of frost in WoW, you raid dungeons and you get the emblems from bosses aka completeing a dungeon. You then trade the emblems for gear/potions/food/etc, it seems to be working pretty well and nobody complained about how unrealistic these are. Why is this a big problem here? I mean it would be pretty simple for Jagex to say "the items you collected through this dungeons have to be destoryed, they formed these crystals and if you give them to that guy over there, he will make something awesome for you." Would it be better then?

 

Is raiding dungeon a class or a skill in WoW? :rolleyes:

 

If there's some sort of lore to support it, I'm alright with it. Some people on RSOF suggested about collecting tokens/crystals/gift vouchers (last one's mine) in the dungeon itself and exchanging for the items. But right now, tokens are strongly linked to your XP, and the items themselves are in no way linked to the Dungeoneer lore as well. Do you get a coal bag made out of behemoth skin? Or a scroll used by the geomancer? Or is the tome of frost used by Lexicus Runewright?

[Hajutze]

So you don't pick up the bones in there, making the Bonecrusher useless?

 

If anything, the Bonecrusher is one of the more worthwhile awards, giving a slight amount of prayer experience for each kill of something that gives bones. I could have used something like that whilst Slaying.

Bonecrusher would be a nice addition when your training at zombie monkeys, armored zombies, bandits ... anything similiar. Not a great prayer exp boost, but I guess if you start earlier it would add up in time. (if you start at 70/70/70 at armored zombies, you'll get 488k until you hit 99/99/99)

[Louisc111]

A real Dungeoneering skill could have easily been incorporated into real RS.

 

Level 9 - You learn how to enter the Lumbridge caves without a light source.

Level 17 - Gain a +5 Agility capability bonus on dungeon-based obstacles.

Level 23 - Slayer creatures in dungeons can still not be damaged without appropriate gear, but will no longer damage you if you attack them

Level 29 - Protection prayers used in dungeons drain prayer points 10% slower.

Level 35 - Increased chance of gem drops mining in underground areas.

Level 44 - You learn how to bypass the vines in the Brimhaven dungeon without needing an axe

...

Level 94 - Your expertise in Dungeoneering allows you to open the doors to Waterbirth Dungeon by yourself.

 

And so on. That's off the top of my head in five minutes. They couldn't have done something much better over the course of two years?

 

Credit where credit is due, those are not bad ideas, a bit overpowered in one or two instances perhaps, but not bad. As a general point this is a good extension to Dungeoneering. See what constructive effort brings?

 

However, did you really have to frame it as a No True Scotsman? We have a *real* dungeoneering skill, it's the one we've got. No one is saying that it's perfect or that there's no room for potential improvement. You do realise that in disagreeing with you insisting your opinions are facts, it doesn't follow that people have no time for positive, constructive contributions?

[Guthorm]

 

Hey thats not a bad idea, the concept is pretty good.

 

One thing about the token system, you know what it reminds me of? The emblem of frost in WoW, you raid dungeons and you get the emblems from bosses aka completeing a dungeon. You then trade the emblems for gear/potions/food/etc, it seems to be working pretty well and nobody complained about how unrealistic these are. Why is this a big problem here? I mean it would be pretty simple for Jagex to say "the items you collected through this dungeons have to be destoryed, they formed these crystals and if you give them to that guy over there, he will make something awesome for you." Would it be better then?

 

Is raiding dungeon a class or a skill in WoW? :rolleyes:

 

If there's some sort of lore to support it, I'm alright with it. Some people on RSOF suggested about collecting tokens/crystals/gift vouchers (last one's mine) in the dungeon itself and exchanging for the items. But right now, tokens are strongly linked to your XP, and the items themselves are in no way linked to the Dungeoneer lore as well. Do you get a coal bag made out of behemoth skin? Or a scroll used by the geomancer? Or is the tome of frost used by Lexicus Runewright?

 

Well, many people say that raiding dungeons IS WoW. Sure there are battle grounds and PvP, but really PvE end dungeons is where the game is at. I am sure many wow players will support me on this.

[Kiriyama]

LCoolL, in the end, that 488k, assuming you use D Bones and Altars, would save a decent amount of cash.

 

Let's add in the Tome of Frost, for those who Barrage with a Master Wand/SOL (if the latter is 1 handed) it's actually pretty good, since it gives +10 Magic attack (less than Mage's Book I believe) and also infinite water runes.

 

Arcane Stream Necklace: +15% Magic damage and +14 Magic attack, not the best for Magic Attack, but 15% extra damage.

 

Chaotic Rapier: I do not know if you'd keep it on death, but it would be useful for Corp Beast, considering it is better in stats than Zamorakian Spear (is it the same speed though?) and I assume 1 handed, allowing use of the Rune Defender, which is only beaten by Vesta's Longsword (probably not on speed) yet it lasts for 10 hours, rather than the 1 hour of Vesta's Longsword.

 

And the shields could probably see situational use for those who can't afford the better Spirit Shields.

[michel555555]

I would have liked it if the bosses themselves would have a chance to give out the rewards.

 

gluttenouse behometh- gem bags

astea frostweb - tome of frost/necklace

bulwark beas- coal bag

skele horde- bone crusher

and on and on

 

 

Would have been much better this way but other then that i love the skill.

 

And why are people so foccused on the bone crusher? Its good and all but am i the only one who sees the benefit from the gem bag, especially if it can hold uncut gems? would never have to drop food to pick up gems while slaying again.

[Guthorm]

I would have liked it if the bosses themselves would have a chance to give out the rewards.

 

gluttenouse behometh- gem bags

astea frostweb - tome of frost/necklace

bulwark beas- coal bag

skele horde- bone crusher

and on and on

 

 

Would have been much better this way but other then that i love the skill.

 

And why are people so foccused on the bone crusher? Its good and all but am i the only one who sees the benefit from the gem bag, especially if it can hold uncut gems? would never have to drop food to pick up gems while slaying again.

 

I would be pretty annoyed if the luck based factor is back again. I mean yes some lore on how did we get the tokens or whatever would be nice, but the reason I like it is because the system right now is because it completely takes out the luck factor. If Jagex let the bosses drops loots, I will be disappointed.

[jsboutin2]

I would have liked it if the bosses themselves would have a chance to give out the rewards.

 

gluttenouse behometh- gem bags

astea frostweb - tome of frost/necklace

bulwark beas- coal bag

skele horde- bone crusher

and on and on

 

 

Would have been much better this way but other then that i love the skill.

 

And why are people so foccused on the bone crusher? Its good and all but am i the only one who sees the benefit from the gem bag, especially if it can hold uncut gems? would never have to drop food to pick up gems while slaying again.

 

This and the coal bag look awesome. And they are quite "affordable", when compared to the bonecrusher.

[Zepheras]

I would have liked it if the bosses themselves would have a chance to give out the rewards.

 

gluttenouse behometh- gem bags

astea frostweb - tome of frost/necklace

bulwark beas- coal bag

skele horde- bone crusher

and on and on

 

 

Would have been much better this way but other then that i love the skill.

 

And why are people so foccused on the bone crusher? Its good and all but am i the only one who sees the benefit from the gem bag, especially if it can hold uncut gems? would never have to drop food to pick up gems while slaying again.

 

I would be pretty annoyed if the luck based factor is back again. I mean yes some lore on how did we get the tokens or whatever would be nice, but the reason I like it is because the system right now is because it completely takes out the luck factor. If Jagex let the bosses drops loots, I will be disappointed.

 

Not impossible. For example, you'll always get the coal bag from the 6th Gluttonous Behemoth. Or you get a frosted page for every even numbered encounter with Astea Frostweb, and 20 pages = one tome of Frost. Granted the chance to meet each boss is randomised, but I'll prefer this over tokens and vouchers and a whole bunch of excuses (lore) for it.

[Obtaurian]

I would have liked it if the bosses themselves would have a chance to give out the rewards.

 

gluttenouse behometh- gem bags

astea frostweb - tome of frost/necklace

bulwark beas- coal bag

skele horde- bone crusher

and on and on

 

 

Would have been much better this way but other then that i love the skill.

 

And why are people so foccused on the bone crusher? Its good and all but am i the only one who sees the benefit from the gem bag, especially if it can hold uncut gems? would never have to drop food to pick up gems while slaying again.

 

I would be pretty annoyed if the luck based factor is back again. I mean yes some lore on how did we get the tokens or whatever would be nice, but the reason I like it is because the system right now is because it completely takes out the luck factor. If Jagex let the bosses drops loots, I will be disappointed.

 

Not impossible. For example, you'll always get the coal bag from the 6th Gluttonous Behemoth. Or you get a frosted page for every even numbered encounter with Astea Frostweb, and 20 pages = one tome of Frost. Granted the chance to meet each boss is randomised, but I'll prefer this over tokens and vouchers and a whole bunch of excuses (lore) for it.

 

I would be happy with that.

[Guthorm]

I would have liked it if the bosses themselves would have a chance to give out the rewards.

 

gluttenouse behometh- gem bags

astea frostweb - tome of frost/necklace

bulwark beas- coal bag

skele horde- bone crusher

and on and on

 

 

Would have been much better this way but other then that i love the skill.

 

And why are people so foccused on the bone crusher? Its good and all but am i the only one who sees the benefit from the gem bag, especially if it can hold uncut gems? would never have to drop food to pick up gems while slaying again.

 

I would be pretty annoyed if the luck based factor is back again. I mean yes some lore on how did we get the tokens or whatever would be nice, but the reason I like it is because the system right now is because it completely takes out the luck factor. If Jagex let the bosses drops loots, I will be disappointed.

 

Not impossible. For example, you'll always get the coal bag from the 6th Gluttonous Behemoth. Or you get a frosted page for every even numbered encounter with Astea Frostweb, and 20 pages = one tome of Frost. Granted the chance to meet each boss is randomised, but I'll prefer this over tokens and vouchers and a whole bunch of excuses (lore) for it.

 

There is still chance involved because the bosses would be randomised as you have stated. Don't get me wrong though, I would love some lore, but I would perfer a token system over an explained luck based system(even if it is just a little) anyday. Thats just me though.