12-Apr-2010 - Dungeoneering Skill!

[AlexRose]

platebody and spear

My friend's received a primal rapier and dagger, and she's destroyed both of them in favor of a promethium spear.

So I'll take her word for it on the spear.

 

As for the platebody, it just saves you sooo much time making armor later on.

Hell I tackle all solo and most duo bosses with just a plaetbody now.

the fact that it saves you the trouble of making armor is just priceless.

 

Good armor early on as well, also priceless.

 

In fairness, the Dagger and Rapier are probably the worst weapons when used alone. Crush is absolutely vital in Dungeoneering, and neither weapon can effectively do more than one type of attack, let alone crush. I've heard a lot of good things about Spears, however. But those bonuses seem a bit ugly to me, and even with the potential to utilize all three styles I think I would end up doing less damage.

[Stev]

I love this new skill!

 

To be honest... I like it because it's not like RuneScape. Sure, it's addicting, but for the first time since dungeoneering came out I left Daemonheim and went to the Grand Exchange and other areas. I did not like it at all.

 

I play Dungeoneering as it's own game. In my opinion it should in no way be considered a skill but maybe a minigame. Either way, if I play RuneScape it will be nothing but Dungeoneering.

[Kalafai]

Was using a Katagon Longsword, but it didn't have enough stab to take on the icefeinds, and slash did nothing on the ice elementals. Picked up an Argonite Rapier, and that did MUCH better on everything, with a little magic on the side for things vulnerable to crush. Gonna probably quaff an artisan's potion to make a Katagon Spear, and try that out. I currently have death runes for amunition since I can't quite make them yet, and just pop into a complexty 1 for a few seconds to bind more every once in a while. As for my second item... well, gonna see about getting one of those slayer rewards when I get there... bloodfury amulet :ohnoes: just plain scary.

[AlexRose]

Was using a Katagon Longsword, but it didn't have enough stab to take on the icefeinds, and slash did nothing on the ice elementals. Picked up an Argonite Rapier, and that did MUCH better on everything, with a little magic on the side for things vulnerable to crush. Gonna probably quaff an artisan's potion to make a Katagon Spear, and try that out. I currently have death runes for amunition since I can't quite make them yet, and just pop into a complexty 1 for a few seconds to bind more every once in a while. As for my second item... well, gonna see about getting one of those slayer rewards when I get there... bloodfury amulet :ohnoes: just plain scary.

 

Is that 110+ strength bonus actually intended, or is it a bug? I sure hope not, but the other attack stats given are +11; no where near the ballpark of 110 and making it very plausible it was just a type.

 

/killjoy

[Kalafai]

Was using a Katagon Longsword, but it didn't have enough stab to take on the icefeinds, and slash did nothing on the ice elementals. Picked up an Argonite Rapier, and that did MUCH better on everything, with a little magic on the side for things vulnerable to crush. Gonna probably quaff an artisan's potion to make a Katagon Spear, and try that out. I currently have death runes for amunition since I can't quite make them yet, and just pop into a complexty 1 for a few seconds to bind more every once in a while. As for my second item... well, gonna see about getting one of those slayer rewards when I get there... bloodfury amulet :ohnoes: just plain scary.

 

Is that 110+ strength bonus actually intended, or is it a bug? I sure hope not, but the other attack stats given are +11; no where near the ballpark of 110 and making it very plausible it was just a type.

 

/killjoy

$ Every 10 seconds, the blood necklace deals 20 damage to all enemies adjacent to you, and heals you for half of the damage that has been dealt.

 

Well, guess it's a little less than I thought... but will be noticeable healing for battling Frostweb and other summoners.... maybe bad about hunter animals though.

^ The doomcore staff increases magic damage by 25%.

Doomcoreis a must for serious mages.

While wearing the shadow silk hood, you are invisible to any humanoids who are not mages or bosses. If spotted by a mage or seeker, all enemies in the room will be able to see you.

This was on that Erik the Viking movie weren't it? And invisibility sounds nice.

[Mecakoto]

Was using a Katagon Longsword, but it didn't have enough stab to take on the icefeinds, and slash did nothing on the ice elementals. Picked up an Argonite Rapier, and that did MUCH better on everything, with a little magic on the side for things vulnerable to crush. Gonna probably quaff an artisan's potion to make a Katagon Spear, and try that out. I currently have death runes for amunition since I can't quite make them yet, and just pop into a complexty 1 for a few seconds to bind more every once in a while. As for my second item... well, gonna see about getting one of those slayer rewards when I get there... bloodfury amulet :ohnoes: just plain scary.

 

Is that 110+ strength bonus actually intended, or is it a bug? I sure hope not, but the other attack stats given are +11; no where near the ballpark of 110 and making it very plausible it was just a type.

 

/killjoy

 

I don't see a reason for it not to be a real bonus seeing as one of the Melee shields provides bonuses to attack above 50, none of which end in 0.

[canadiansmurf]

When I first tried this skill out I was hesitant. I barely thought one could call it a skill at all, with the fact that dungeoneering is absolutely useless outside its own little area, which is totally unlike how any other skill works.

 

But now.... I think it is the best skill in the game. Reasons why:

 

 

 

It's not a skill it's a minigame. It just combines elements of mini-games we've seen so far. Stealing creation, castle wars, FOG and all.

 

 

 

 

 

[*]Exciting gameplay - The dungeons are never boring due to the fact that every dungeon is randomly generated each time you play. You never know what will be on the other side of a door, and you never know what boss you're up against til near the end.

 

 

 

There is a lot of repetition especially if you reset. I think bosses are dependent on what level floor you are doing as well as your dungeon level. It's not exactly that random.

 

 

 

 

[*]The revivial of lost items/classes - I LOVE the fact that meleers, rangers, and mages are all equally powerful in the dungeons. Its great to know that rushing in with five melee tanks against a lvl 500 mage boss simply doesn't work (like it would work aboveground). Because certain bosses have certain weaknesses, all three classes of the combat triangle are needed. Also- I'm so glad the runes aren't expensive- it means maging doesn't cost an arm and a leg like it does on the surface.

 

 

 

 

I range in the dungeons and my main complaint is that there are NO safe spots for magers/rangers. There should have been some put in place but I've found maybe a handful of safe spots most dungeon rooms have 0 safe spots. This doesn't make all classes equal. If I'm eating I might as well be using melle.

 

Mage is free to level at FOG. The rewards from that minigame are easier to obtain and can be sold to other players. There are also some good unique rewards for skilling such as rc gloves. There was even FOG mage robe rewards.

 

The dungeon "skill" has great graphics for the armour too bad those weren't released as rewards.

 

 

 

 

I like minigames and I like dungeon but I don't see myself levelling it past 75.

I would be bored of it despite how good the rewards may be. Reset is already annoying me.

[crashNburn]

Can you not make potions with boosted herblore? I tried to make some strong poison after downing a naturalist's potion, raised my herblore to 87, but I still couldn't make the pot.

 

I know you can smith stuff with potion boosts (used an artisan's potion to make my gorg spear), so is this a bug or intentional?

[Obtaurian]

Canadian, I've rarely had trouble finding safespots. Sometimes you have to run around ala-Sara GWD, but all you need is a little creatively when using ranged/mage.

[Myu]

Can you not make potions with boosted herblore? I tried to make some strong poison after downing a naturalist's potion, raised my herblore to 87, but I still couldn't make the pot.

 

I know you can smith stuff with potion boosts (used an artisan's potion to make my gorg spear), so is this a bug or intentional?

 

It's probably intentional.

[Zepheras]

If you did floor 17 before you had the level to access floor 18, you have to do 17 again to unlock 18.

 

Yes, it's idiotic, but the list of design elements in this "skill" meeting that description is very long.

 

List them for me. I'm sure half of your "long list" is your unreasonable arguments that you cannot defend.

^

This

 

Also, To Qeltar, i made a nice argument on why this IS a skill not a mini game, since you seem to be strongly against calling this a skill can you read that it if you get the chance

 

Dont worry, he will only respond with anecdotal exaggerations.

 

I can't find Ring_world's argument. Which page is it on?

[Amundogus2]

Ok, Im up to lvl 41 now I think, which meens I can make a fair judgement I think.

 

I honestly was a bit disappointed at release, but all that has gone ^^ This game (ye, it feels like a seperate game) seems so polished, and I cant wait for the second batch =) What I love about it is the diversity of the tasks you perform, and the fact that I continually discover new content as I level. I really like the teaming aspect of it aswell, and how that was reinforced in a good way (for example you don't have to do the floors in a set order after resetting, making it easier to make teams).

 

One of the few downsides is created by players rather than the developer, some people just seem to not want to stay in spirit of the game and (luckily) loses massive amounts of xp in doing so. I'm talking about the people who just rush bosses until they're dead, dying 1-10 times in the process. It really ruins alot for me, especially when they call me a leecher because I didn't immediately run into the boss room with 3 food on me =/

 

Other than that its very enjoyable though, and who knows, maybe people will come to their senses after a while.

 

It doesnt feel very skill-ish, thats true. But it doesnt feel very minigame-ish either, so I dunno where they should put it tbh xD Not that it really matters ^^

[qeltar]

I barely thought one could call it a skill at all, with the fact that dungeoneering is absolutely useless outside its own little area, which is totally unlike how any other skill works.

Absolutely true..

 

But now.... I think it is the best skill in the game.

It may be the best minigame in RS. It's not a skill.

 

All of the attributes you listed are applicable to a good minigame. It's a nice piece of content (except for all the design flaws) but it's not a skill because it doesn't fit the requirements, period. As others have pointed out, it feels like a separate game entirely, and that's because it basically is.

 

Some of the many design flaws (can't be bothered to list all of them):

 

1. Rewards are unreasonably difficult to obtain. You can get to level 50 without getting anything at all for your effort.

2. Very slow leveling.

3. Mismatches between reward requirements and minimum levels to get them.

4. Inability to suspend play as a solo player.

5. Too-rare instances of monsters dropping high quality items as a solo player.

6. Double-counting of XP modifiers.

7. Extremely, unnecessarily confusing "prestige" system.

8. Silly 30 second "countdown" after the end of every level that can't be turned off.

9. Guide mode forced on for lower complexity levels.

10. Complete uselessness of lower complexity levels due to severe XP penalties.

11. Forced replay of lower level content.

12. Poor handling of multiplayer games where a player leaves mid dungeon.

13. Insufficient number of bound items.

14. Horrible integration into the rest of RS.

15. Laughably unfair "partial XP" rewards for not completing a dungeon -- even if the boss has been killed.

 

PS All the sniping flamers can kiss my donkey.

[Hajutze]

I barely thought one could call it a skill at all, with the fact that dungeoneering is absolutely useless outside its own little area, which is totally unlike how any other skill works.

Absolutely true..

 

But now.... I think it is the best skill in the game.

It may be the best minigame in RS. It's not a skill.

 

You seem to miss an important fact. The definition for a runescape skill is - what Jagex says =/ You may not like it but their opinion on what is a skills > your opinion.

[Zepheras]

 

Some of the many design flaws (can't be bothered to list all of them):

 

1. Rewards are unreasonably difficult to obtain. You can get to level 50 without getting anything at all for your effort.

2. Very slow leveling.

3. Mismatches between reward requirements and minimum levels to get them.

4. Inability to suspend play as a solo player.

5. Too-rare instances of monsters dropping high quality items as a solo player.

6. Double-counting of XP modifiers.

7. Extremely, unnecessarily confusing "prestige" system.

8. Silly 30 second "countdown" after the end of every level that can't be turned off.

9. Guide mode forced on for lower complexity levels.

10. Complete uselessness of lower complexity levels due to severe XP penalties.

11. Forced replay of lower level content.

12. Poor handling of multiplayer games where a player leaves mid dungeon.

13. Insufficient number of bound items.

14. Horrible integration into the rest of RS.

15. Laughably unfair "partial XP" rewards for not completing a dungeon -- even if the boss has been killed.

 

PS All the sniping flamers can kiss my donkey.

 

1. Can be fixed.

2. Not an issue. Comparable to RC, Slayer. Might be even faster.

3. Can be fixed.

4. Can be fixed, and is being fixed.

5. True, can't get a full fractite most of the time in F2P. Can it be fixed?

6. A little too harsh, from what I saw the tipit general F2P thread. It's about a 50% loss of floor and prestige XP if you don't have any room bonus.

7.I find it confusing, but necessary. What's a better way to encourage players to replay every level instead of only the last level?

8. It synchronises the timing for a team to enter the next floor at the same time. If I off it and you don't, I'll be at the next floor picking the resources first.

9. Guide mode is pretty useless for its penalty as well. Need to be fixed, or just off it.

10. Who bothers playing on lower complexity?

11. This is related to 7. You're going to replay some levels anyway. Might as well have a system to replay lower levels for some benefits, than have everyone utilising only the best levels. I like revisiting the bosses on the ice level without fear that I must play the best level for the best XP.

12. It's the same with many multiplayer games. Doubt it can be fixed.

13. Agree. Everyone binds a weapon for starters. You can't bind a good piece of armour.

14. The integration of other skills into this skill is great. The integration of this skill into other skills (unless you consider the 'rewards' as integration), is....there none.

15. I don't get this.

[qeltar]

1. Can be fixed.

This was a list of design flaws, not unfixable design flaws.

 

2. Not an issue. Comparable to RC, Slayer. Might be even faster.

Those skills don't require gobs of XP to get anything useful out of them.

 

6. A little too harsh, from what I saw the tipit general F2P thread. It's about a 50% loss of floor and prestige XP if you don't have any room bonus.

If you play on complexity 1 your room XP gets whacked, your prestige XP gets whacked, you lose the room bonuses, you get a guide mode penalty AND a 50% penalty on top of that. I mean really -- five penalties? They might as well have just removed complexities 1 to 5 entirely. Very poor design.

 

7.I find it confusing, but necessary. What's a better way to encourage players to replay every level instead of only the last level?

Why is it ncessary to do this at all? Am I forced to hunt polar kebbits when I get to level 90, or kill chickens half the time to level combat?

 

8. It synchronises the timing for a team to enter the next floor at the same time. If I off it and you don't, I'll be at the next floor picking the resources first.

It already asks the leader if he's ready for his whole team to go. It's also unneeded for solo play.

 

10. Who bothers playing on lower complexity?

Then why have it? Proper design means reasonable tradeoffs to broaden a piece of content; there should be both advantages and disadvantages to different complexity levels. If everyone knows you should always play on level 6, then the design is broken.

 

12. It's the same with many multiplayer games. Doubt it can be fixed.

It could if they bothered to make an effort to do so.

 

15. I don't get this.

You are supposed to be given a partial XP reward if you don't complete a floor, but that partial XP reward is a tiny fraction of what it should be. I actually had an occasion where I completed all of a floor except one monster -- I went into the boss room early by accident, killed it, then went back to the other rooms. I D/Ced with one regular monster to kill and got 1/6th of the normal XP for the floor.

 

You seem to miss an important fact. The definition for a runescape skill is - what Jagex says =/

It is what it is. Jagex can call a turnip a hamburger if they want, but that doesn't make it so.

[Guthorm]

I think for number 15 Qeltar meant that if you complete only parts of the dungeon, even if you have killed the boss, and logs out, you only receive a tiny amount of exp. I think maybe it will be better for players to receive exp based on rooms they have unlocked and a bonus exp for killing a boss. Sort of like agility perhaps, a small amount of exp per room and the rest of the exp for finishing the boss room, the exp has to be balanced to prevent players from boss rushing but I think it can be done.

[Zepheras]

So, if the majority of the design flaws are fixed, this skill would be pretty decent. No?

 

Your comeback for Point 2 is still about the mismatch in token cost (and hence XP) and the dungeoneer level for the items. I'm personally not worried about flaws that can be fixed by just changing a little here and there, compared to complicated flaws in the game mechanics, like the complexity system, XP calculation involving bonus rooms and such.

 

Point 10, I meant something similar to yours. Remove it.

 

Point 12, it's a complex issue. for example, the switch puzzle depends on the number of players in the team. A 4-man team can still complete a 5-switch puzzle, but 3 is impossible. Same for the behemoth, where a duo team can't beat it (with two piles of food) if one accidentally logs off. If he guy who logs logs off returns to the party, you still have a chance. But if he's deserting you, I don't think the system can reload the dungeon just to remove the extra food pile, or adjust the enemy level.

 

 

7.I find it confusing, but necessary. What's a better way to encourage players to replay every level instead of only the last level?

Why is it ncessary to do this at all? Am I forced to hunt polar kebbits when I get to level 90, or kill chickens half the time to level combat?

 

 

Now now, here's the thing. What you consider as being forced is different from mine.

 

You:

You do floor 1 to 20, and since you can't do 21, you decide to repeat floor 20 multiple times until you unlock floor 21. Whoever wants to do lower floors (as a choice) can go ahead, no one's stopping them, but they get penalised in XP. That's not much of a choice, actually.

 

Me:

I do floor 1 to 20, and since I can't do 21, and there's a system to re-do all the lower levels while obtaining XP through prestige, why not? Whoever wants to repeat specific level (as a choice) can go ahead, no one's stopping them, but they get penalised in XP. The only reason to do the same level x times is for the XP, now there's no reason to do this.

 

Seeing that XP would be the only reason to keep doing the best level over and over, Jagex remove this 'grinding' factor at a single level. And in the situation where you don't want your older content to be ignored the moment you pass the level for them, the prestige system is great as well. You are rewarded with XP along with a change of environment and monsters. If there's a system where you can hunt any species, or cut any tree without a XP penalty, who wouldn't want it?

[Lunar_Drifter]

I barely thought one could call it a skill at all, with the fact that dungeoneering is absolutely useless outside its own little area, which is totally unlike how any other skill works.

Absolutely true..

 

But now.... I think it is the best skill in the game.

It may be the best minigame in RS. It's not a skill.

 

You seem to miss an important fact. The definition for a runescape skill is - what Jagex says =/ You may not like it but their opinion on what is a skills > your opinion.

 

Don't question qeltar. He is the provider- nay, the soul source of information that Jagex must rely on to make content, but doesn't. Although they don't listen to him and his infinite wisdom, they have miraculously given him an unabridged dictionary of terms, definitions, and implied contracts between Jagex and the players. And now, this awe inspiring man is here to spread the knowledge to the unknowing and brainless zombie drones who are currently feeding off of Jagex fanboyism.

 

:rolleyes:

 

Basically, it doesn't fit some people's definition of what a skill is- so some people are going to argue with us relentlessly (read: futilely).

[LatinII]

It's a bit unfair that there are P2P doors on F2P dungeons... it can really hurt your XP.

[Youmu]

It's a bit unfair that there are P2P doors on F2P dungeons... it can really hurt your XP.

Or 100+ level requirement doors in F2P?

[Zepheras]

It's a bit unfair that there are P2P doors on F2P dungeons... it can really hurt your XP.

Or 100+ level requirement doors in F2P?

 

Somewhat related to the problem with the complexity system. I presume everyone plays on Complexity 6 no? So as a F2P, you're enjoying the same benefits of zero XP penalty as a member for choosing 6, but at the same time, you don't have the skills to clear obstacles like summoning, thieving and herblore. I'm not sure how to go about this. Remove members skill-related doors and puzzles on F2P dungeon, but remove complexity level 4, 5 and 6 since you shouldn't even have access to members? That would be a nerf on XP for all F2P players (not up to 50% though), and we can remove the 50% XP penalty for level 90+ as well.

[Beloved]

It's a bit unfair that there are P2P doors on F2P dungeons... it can really hurt your XP.

Or 100+ level requirement doors in F2P?

 

Somewhat related to the problem with the complexity system. I presume everyone plays on Complexity 6 no? So as a F2P, you're enjoying the same benefits of zero XP penalty as a member for choosing 6, but at the same time, you don't have the skills to clear obstacles like summoning, thieving and herblore. I'm not sure how to go about this. Remove members skill-related doors and puzzles on F2P dungeon, but remove complexity level 4, 5 and 6 since you shouldn't even have access to members? That would be a nerf on XP for all F2P players (not up to 50% though), and we can remove the 50% XP penalty for level 90+ as well.

i agree, that would have been more sensible. Although i still think they should have just included harder bosses and enemies with the increase of combat level, exactly like it is now on P2P.

[Zepheras]

It's a bit unfair that there are P2P doors on F2P dungeons... it can really hurt your XP.

Or 100+ level requirement doors in F2P?

 

Somewhat related to the problem with the complexity system. I presume everyone plays on Complexity 6 no? So as a F2P, you're enjoying the same benefits of zero XP penalty as a member for choosing 6, but at the same time, you don't have the skills to clear obstacles like summoning, thieving and herblore. I'm not sure how to go about this. Remove members skill-related doors and puzzles on F2P dungeon, but remove complexity level 4, 5 and 6 since you shouldn't even have access to members? That would be a nerf on XP for all F2P players (not up to 50% though), and we can remove the 50% XP penalty for level 90+ as well.

i agree, that would have been more sensible. Although i still think they should have just included harder bosses and enemies with the increase of combat level, exactly like it is now on P2P.

 

The reason for the 50% XP nerf was because members could complete the same floor on F2P in a shorter time and hence faster XP than playing on members' world. I'm wondering why it is so though, more preparation time required to make better food and armour?

[Beloved]

It's a bit unfair that there are P2P doors on F2P dungeons... it can really hurt your XP.

Or 100+ level requirement doors in F2P?

 

Somewhat related to the problem with the complexity system. I presume everyone plays on Complexity 6 no? So as a F2P, you're enjoying the same benefits of zero XP penalty as a member for choosing 6, but at the same time, you don't have the skills to clear obstacles like summoning, thieving and herblore. I'm not sure how to go about this. Remove members skill-related doors and puzzles on F2P dungeon, but remove complexity level 4, 5 and 6 since you shouldn't even have access to members? That would be a nerf on XP for all F2P players (not up to 50% though), and we can remove the 50% XP penalty for level 90+ as well.

i agree, that would have been more sensible. Although i still think they should have just included harder bosses and enemies with the increase of combat level, exactly like it is now on P2P.

 

The reason for the 50% XP nerf was because members could complete the same floor on F2P in a shorter time and hence faster XP than playing on members' world. I'm wondering why it is so though, more preparation time required to make better food and armour?

 

No, like i said, it was because enemies and bosses on F2P are much lower leveled than on P2P.

 

/edit: and hence: easier killed --> easier completed --> faster xp