12-Apr-2010 - Dungeoneering Skill!

[STDracula]

They still got alot of stuff to fix before it is class as a real skill.

 

The rewards

Amount of tokens obtain

P2p stuff mix with F2p stuff - i mean... Lvl 103 mining in f2p and can't use herby... that's just madness

Change some of the context in this skill because it feels more like a minigame then a skill

 

Hopefully they will fix it in 2 weeks time - really want the bone crasher rewards lol

[Zepheras]

It's a bit unfair that there are P2P doors on F2P dungeons... it can really hurt your XP.

Or 100+ level requirement doors in F2P?

 

Somewhat related to the problem with the complexity system. I presume everyone plays on Complexity 6 no? So as a F2P, you're enjoying the same benefits of zero XP penalty as a member for choosing 6, but at the same time, you don't have the skills to clear obstacles like summoning, thieving and herblore. I'm not sure how to go about this. Remove members skill-related doors and puzzles on F2P dungeon, but remove complexity level 4, 5 and 6 since you shouldn't even have access to members? That would be a nerf on XP for all F2P players (not up to 50% though), and we can remove the 50% XP penalty for level 90+ as well.

i agree, that would have been more sensible. Although i still think they should have just included harder bosses and enemies with the increase of combat level, exactly like it is now on P2P.

 

The reason for the 50% XP nerf was because members could complete the same floor on F2P in a shorter time and hence faster XP than playing on members' world. I'm wondering why it is so though, more preparation time required to make better food and armour?

 

No, like i said, it was because enemies and bosses on F2P are much lower leveled than on P2P.

 

/edit: and hence: easier killed --> easier completed --> faster xp

 

Too bad I don't have membership to test it out, but I do leave tons of food on the ground because most of the monsters (except the boss) are pretty weak. But even with the raise in cap, I think a basic proportional reduction in XP rate for all F2P should be in place. There's no reason why F2P should have the same XP rate as a member, and every other skill has ways to improve members' training. Since Dungeoneering calculates XP, it makes sense to me that F2P gets say, 65% of what a member gets for the same level and prestige (maybe by blocking complexity 4-6). It's just being fair to members who pay, as well as among the F2Pers.

[Beloved]

They still got alot of stuff to fix before it is class as a real skill.

 

The rewards

Amount of tokens obtain

P2p stuff mix with F2p stuff - i mean... Lvl 103 mining in f2p and can't use herby... that's just madness

Change some of the context in this skill because it feels more like a minigame then a skill

 

Hopefully they will fix it in 2 weeks time - really want the bone crasher rewards lol

there would have been an easy way of making this into a skill instead of a minigame like it is now:

 

Make people able to keep (boss)drops from dungeoneering. That way you get a reward from your skilling exactly like you do from all other skills, but instead they choose to use a minigame-like method with tokens and buy-ables. Although this does factor out luck based rewards (which drops are of course).

[qeltar]

So, if the majority of the design flaws are fixed, this skill would be pretty decent. No?

It would be a nice minigame, yes. It's not a skill if the only reason anyone can come up with for why this is one and SC is not is that "Jagex sez so".

 

Point 12, it's a complex issue. for example, the switch puzzle depends on the number of players in the team. A 4-man team can still complete a 5-switch puzzle, but 3 is impossible. Same for the behemoth, where a duo team can't beat it (with two piles of food) if one accidentally logs off. If he guy who logs logs off returns to the party, you still have a chance. But if he's deserting you, I don't think the system can reload the dungeon just to remove the extra food pile, or adjust the enemy level.

Well sure, there are some things they can't fix, but there are others they can. I do think they could fix the behemoth problem pretty easily, for example.

 

Seeing that XP would be the only reason to keep doing the best level over and over, Jagex remove this 'grinding' factor at a single level. And in the situation where you don't want your older content to be ignored the moment you pass the level for them, the prestige system is great as well. You are rewarded with XP along with a change of environment and monsters. If there's a system where you can hunt any species, or cut any tree without a XP penalty, who wouldn't want it?

But this doesn't remove grinding at all. It makes it worse.

 

Each floor is randomly generated, so the specifics of doing it change, but the general process is the same. On each floor you equip yourself, kill stuff, gather resources, equip yourself some more, solve a puzzle or two, find a boss and kill it. This is the same on floor 1 as it is on floor 30.

 

And the difficulty and time requirement doesn't really increase all that much either. It takes me nearly as long to redo floor 1 as the deepest floor I can get to.

 

Yet because of this "prestige" system, I am making, overall, 25% less XP than I would if I were just allowed to repeat the deeper floors. This means doing more floors to get XP, which is more grinding, not less.

 

I understand the desire to have players do more than just repeat the bottom floor, but as usual, they took the easy way out. The right way is to design the game so players have an *intrinsic* reason to redo the upper floors. Instead, they just penalize you for not doing what they want, which is an *extrinsic* motivator.

[LatinII]

I really hope they buff up the Chaotic Staff and change the new Augury prayer.

 

The Chaotic Staff is so useless right now. It takes 4 million xp to buy one and it only has 1 more point in magic attack than the SoL does, it has no special, no rune saving ability and has the same magic damage boost as the SoL. Buff the damage boost up to 20% and increase it's magic attack to +25 or something to make it worth spending all the tokens on...

 

Then there's the Augury prayer which is a big disappointment. It actually is more of a help to meleers who are running from Mages because of the insane 25% magical defence bonus. It only gives 5% more accuracy than Mystic Might which is unnoticeable. Give the Augury prayer a 5% damage boost, and reduce it's magic defence to 15% or something.

 

Sometimes I really wonder if the developers have any idea on how Magic really works...

[Myweponsg00d]

 

It would be a nice minigame, yes. It's not a skill if the only reason anyone can come up with for why this is one and SC is not is that "Jagex sez so".

You play against other players in SC. Having a high dung level also lets you get unique rewards that add a variety of gameplay features. SC gives you bonus exp.

 

 

But this doesn't remove grinding at all. It makes it worse.

 

Each floor is randomly generated, so the specifics of doing it change, but the general process is the same. On each floor you equip yourself, kill stuff, gather resources, equip yourself some more, solve a puzzle or two, find a boss and kill it. This is the same on floor 1 as it is on floor 30.

 

And the difficulty and time requirement doesn't really increase all that much either. It takes me nearly as long to redo floor 1 as the deepest floor I can get to.

 

Yet because of this "prestige" system, I am making, overall, 25% less XP than I would if I were just allowed to repeat the deeper floors. This means doing more floors to get XP, which is more grinding, not less.

 

I understand the desire to have players do more than just repeat the bottom floor, but as usual, they took the easy way out. The right way is to design the game so players have an *intrinsic* reason to redo the upper floors. Instead, they just penalize you for not doing what they want, which is an *extrinsic* motivator.

 

Worse is subjective. You are acting like these things are design flaws. In reality, its just your personal dislike.

 

Also, "grinding" usually means "doing the same thing over and over". How can you call the process of doing 35 different floors "more grinding" than doing the same floor 20+ times?

 

Also the intrinsic motivator is that you should have fun doing the dungeons, and seeing a range of bosses. Would Slayer be more fun if you just got assigned the same task 500000 times? No. People like slayer because you get random assignments and it adds some sense of variety. Is it REALLY variety? No. Your task comes from the same list of like 20 monsters, and you probably are going to use almost identical equipment on every task. Arguing that you should just be able to do floor 35 over and over is like arguing that you should be able to choose the same slayer task over and over.

 

The POINT of slayer is to kill assigned monsters. The POINT of dungeoneering is to test your ingenuity and to make sure you see an unpredictable range of environments.

[qeltar]

Sometimes I really wonder if the developers have any idea on how Magic really works...

Every update makes it more and more clear that the developers don't have any clue about how players actually play the game.

 

Another inexcusable design flaw is putting in doors that cannot be opened even using the maximum herblore boost, then hiding half the floor behind said doors, and penalizing players 50% of their XP for something they can do nothing about. Idiotic.

[Danqazmlp]

Sometimes I really wonder if the developers have any idea on how Magic really works...

Every update makes it more and more clear that the developers don't have any clue about how players actually play the game.

 

Another inexcusable design flaw is putting in doors that cannot be opened even using the maximum herblore boost, then hiding half the floor behind said doors, and penalizing players 50% of their XP for something they can do nothing about. Idiotic.

 

 

It isn't idiotic at all. The idea behind having doors that connot be opened by one player, is to encourage you to go in a team with diverse skills. It is meant as a party skill. You get rewarded for having a party with skills spread out and not having one person do all the work.

[Zepheras]

So, if the majority of the design flaws are fixed, this skill would be pretty decent. No?

It would be a nice minigame, yes. It's not a skill if the only reason anyone can come up with for why this is one and SC is not is that "Jagex sez so".

 

Point 12, it's a complex issue. for example, the switch puzzle depends on the number of players in the team. A 4-man team can still complete a 5-switch puzzle, but 3 is impossible. Same for the behemoth, where a duo team can't beat it (with two piles of food) if one accidentally logs off. If he guy who logs logs off returns to the party, you still have a chance. But if he's deserting you, I don't think the system can reload the dungeon just to remove the extra food pile, or adjust the enemy level.

Well sure, there are some things they can't fix, but there are others they can. I do think they could fix the behemoth problem pretty easily, for example.

 

Seeing that XP would be the only reason to keep doing the best level over and over, Jagex remove this 'grinding' factor at a single level. And in the situation where you don't want your older content to be ignored the moment you pass the level for them, the prestige system is great as well. You are rewarded with XP along with a change of environment and monsters. If there's a system where you can hunt any species, or cut any tree without a XP penalty, who wouldn't want it?

But this doesn't remove grinding at all. It makes it worse.

 

Each floor is randomly generated, so the specifics of doing it change, but the general process is the same. On each floor you equip yourself, kill stuff, gather resources, equip yourself some more, solve a puzzle or two, find a boss and kill it. This is the same on floor 1 as it is on floor 30.

 

And the difficulty and time requirement doesn't really increase all that much either. It takes me nearly as long to redo floor 1 as the deepest floor I can get to.

 

Yet because of this "prestige" system, I am making, overall, 25% less XP than I would if I were just allowed to repeat the deeper floors. This means doing more floors to get XP, which is more grinding, not less.

 

I understand the desire to have players do more than just repeat the bottom floor, but as usual, they took the easy way out. The right way is to design the game so players have an *intrinsic* reason to redo the upper floors. Instead, they just penalize you for not doing what they want, which is an *extrinsic* motivator.

 

You repeat the highest (or close to) activity for every other skill. Is that an intrinsic reason (because you get the best XP), or an extrinsic reason (you get lower XP for doing anything below what you can)?

 

It's hard to implement an intrinsic factor to redo the upper floors, unless there are rewards involved. The prestige system rewards XP, and I consider that an intrinsic motivator already, although removing the tokens system and somehow spread the rewards within the floors of the dungeon would be better. Without the system this extrinsic motivator would have been there anyway, aka you get penalised for not doing the best level.

 

If the system is redesigned such that the XP from doing a fix number of floor regardless of the floor level is the same, that would be great. You can grind 10 rounds of floor 20, or do 3 rounds of floor 1, 7 rounds of floor 19, based on your preference. But if you're talking about removing the prestige system so that 10 rounds of floor 20 always rewards more XP than 10 rounds of floor 19, and so on, no thanks. I rather have this forced system to go through all the variety. The prestige system is designed in mind to reward X amount of XP in Y amount of time, and you're just assuming that without it, you would get more than X amount for the same time spent. It's not like that, if you get what I mean.

[x1992x]

The thing i really don't get it that people can't seem to think that there is like a 99% chance that we get some new dungeons to explore it's not like they only release one dungeon in all of the skills life, try and wait 6 month and i think we have alot more dungeons to lvl in.

[NukeMarine]

Qeltar,

 

There's all sorts of problems with how Jagex approaches any number of skills.

 

-Why is Constitution or Hitpoints leveled by doing damage to a monster, shouldn't it be leveled by healing yourself with food?

-Why is Defense leveled with doing damage to a monster, should it be leveled by avoiding hits from a monster?

-What does the end of an agility course have to do with so much experience?

-What does the metal of a weapon have to do with whether I can hold it in my hand?

-Why can I hunt a chinchompa in a controlled area, but not a bear or a wolf or a unicorn?

 

Let's not forget that Jagex adapted skills over time to at least make them sort of useful. Agility and Firemaking were almost entirely useless. Prayer had no real purpose past the big three for a long time, and those were horribly overpowered for their benefit (100%/50% reduction of damage). Let's not forget level 40 armor was the norm (except for level 70 ranged black) until barrows.

 

As far as Dungeoneering being a mini-game: Jagex tells you in the development diaries it started out as a mini-game not even in the Runescape game. Yes it's a mini-game that's adapted to use the skill system, why is that even a complaint. Slayer is a mini-game that does the same thing.

 

So yeah, Jagex messed up a new skill. Big deal, it's always messed up skills even when it tweaked them. So Dungeoneering is a mini-game. Big deal, so is Slayer, Hunter and Agility in how they're trained. So Dungeoneering is closed off. Big deal, so is Farming and Construction.

 

Why not head over to the Dungeoneering feedback and post lucid suggestions about improving the minigame/skill. I posted a few (allow binding of any number of items, but the item's tier level is an XP penalty; Spend tokens on gaining XP in all skill; reduce cost to make arrows; better random team organizer) which may or may not get accepted. Hell, my idea for God Wars dungeon apparently went over real well in the last two years, so Jagex has no problem adapting player feedback. Just don't be mad when they don't accept it either.

[Myweponsg00d]

The prestige system is designed in mind to reward X amount of XP in Y amount of time, and you're just assuming that without it, you would get more than X amount for the same time spent. It's not like that, if you get what I mean.

 

Yeah. Saying "I should be allowed to just complete the last floor" is like saying "There should be less obstacles on this agility course"

 

The prestige system is part of the intended exp rate. Saying the system would give you faster exp if it worked different is just...well..its just really stupid. It makes no sense to say that. The same could be said for any skill. Summoning would give me faster exp if the pouches and second ingredients were stackable.

[Saru Inc]

I've soloed every level but the first Dan, people aren't reliable at all. Never have, never will be.

[Danqazmlp]

I've soloed every level but the first Dan, people aren't reliable at all. Never have, never will be.

 

 

People have complained ever since the G.E that Jagex have been taking the multiplayer part out of this game. They finally make something that rewards playing with others and people bash it. As usual, people are never happy.

[Myweponsg00d]

I've soloed every level but the first Dan, people aren't reliable at all. Never have, never will be.

 

 

People have complained ever since the G.E that Jagex have been taking the multiplayer part out of this game. They finally make something that rewards playing with others and people bash it. As usual, people are never happy.

 

I think the problem is that a lot of people just really dont even like this game. Theyre just addicted to playing for way too long and bragging that they have more gold/higher stats than the person beside them.

[Zepheras]

There's all sorts of problems with how Jagex approaches any number of skills.

 

-Why is Constitution or Hitpoints leveled by doing damage to a monster, shouldn't it be leveled by healing yourself with food?

-Why is Defense leveled with doing damage to a monster, should it be leveled by avoiding hits from a monster?

-What does the end of an agility course have to do with so much experience?

-What does the metal of a weapon have to do with whether I can hold it in my hand?

-Why can I hunt a chinchompa in a controlled area, but not a bear or a wolf or a unicorn?

 

....

 

 

It's just a game, some things cannot be THAT realistic. And some things are in place for a reason. If you don't have the bulk of XP at the end of the agility course but spread it out evenly, people are just going to repeat that one single obstacle over and over. Sure it's still repeating an action, but since they designed a COURSE they would want players to complete the whole thing.

[Amundogus2]

The thing i really don't get it that people can't seem to think that there is like a 99% chance that we get some new dungeons to explore it's not like they only release one dungeon in all of the skills life, try and wait 6 month and i think we have alot more dungeons to lvl in.

6 months and alot more dungs.... do you even know how long they spent on this one dung...? -_- We'll be getting a second part of the skill soonish, but after that we'll have to wait for a long time if we're gonna get any new dungeons I think.

[Myweponsg00d]

There's all sorts of problems with how Jagex approaches any number of skills.

 

-Why is Constitution or Hitpoints leveled by doing damage to a monster, shouldn't it be leveled by healing yourself with food?

-Why is Defense leveled with doing damage to a monster, should it be leveled by avoiding hits from a monster?

-What does the end of an agility course have to do with so much experience?

-What does the metal of a weapon have to do with whether I can hold it in my hand?

-Why can I hunt a chinchompa in a controlled area, but not a bear or a wolf or a unicorn?

 

....

 

 

It's just a game, some things cannot be THAT realistic. And some things are in place for a reason. If you don't have the bulk of XP at the end of the agility course but spread it out evenly, people are just going to repeat that one single obstacle over and over. Sure it's still repeating an action, but since they designed a COURSE they would want players to complete the whole thing.

 

I think NukeMarie was actually trying to make that same point. Some decisions are arbitrary, and it is part of the game design.

[NukeMarine]

 

It's just a game, some things cannot be THAT realistic. And some things are in place for a reason. If you don't have the bulk of XP at the end of the agility course but spread it out evenly, people are just going to repeat that one single obstacle over and over. Sure it's still repeating an action, but since they designed a COURSE they would want players to complete the whole thing.

 

I think NukeMarie was actually trying to make that same point. Some decisions are arbitrary, and it is part of the game design.

 

Yeah, I meant that as a reply to Qeltar. I added his name to my post. I'm not going to get all hung up that Jagex messed up on some items. So long as they listen to feedback and make reasonable changes then I'm cool with how they do business. It is, like you said, a game so should be fun above and beyond anything else (especially realism).

[qeltar]

As far as Dungeoneering being a mini-game: Jagex tells you in the development diaries it started out as a mini-game not even in the Runescape game. Yes it's a mini-game that's adapted to use the skill system, why is that even a complaint. Slayer is a mini-game that does the same thing.

It's a complaint because this shows every sign of being a recycling job, and not even one very well done at that. They had this game they didn't want to launch separately, and they didn't want to put in the effort it would have taken to make a real skill, so they shoehorned this thing into RS. If they had taken a few more months and done the job properly, it could have been really good. The whole thing smells of a half-assed effort.

 

Why not head over to the Dungeoneering feedback and post lucid suggestions about improving the minigame/skill.

I have a nice wall here I could talk to instead -- more convenient and would yield the same results.

 

I don't mind them putting in a skill I don't like.. heck, there are many I don't like right now. But this isn't a skill at all, and anyone who approaches the matter honestly will see that. I doubt anyone could list even three major things that make this a skill if SC and BA are not.

[Danqazmlp]

As far as Dungeoneering being a mini-game: Jagex tells you in the development diaries it started out as a mini-game not even in the Runescape game. Yes it's a mini-game that's adapted to use the skill system, why is that even a complaint. Slayer is a mini-game that does the same thing.

It's a complaint because this shows every sign of being a recycling job, and not even one very well done at that. They had this game they didn't want to launch separately, and they didn't want to put in the effort it would have taken to make a real skill, so they shoehorned this thing into RS. If they had taken a few more months and done the job properly, it could have been really good. The whole thing smells of a half-assed effort.

 

Why not head over to the Dungeoneering feedback and post lucid suggestions about improving the minigame/skill.

I have a nice wall here I could talk to instead -- more convenient and would yield the same results.

 

I don't mind them putting in a skill I don't like.. heck, there are many I don't like right now. But this isn't a skill at all, and anyone who approaches the matter honestly will see that. I doubt anyone could list even three major things that make this a skill if SC and BA are not.

 

 

It being on the skill page.

Getting exp in it.

Not being 'mini'

Multiple locations (As we are going to get)

Required for quests (As we are going to get)

Required to do things (as will happen)

 

 

6.

[Myweponsg00d]

@qeltar

Ignoring the part where I disproved your whole Stealing Creation argument? And explained to you that game designers have to decide on exp rates somehow? And that random environments is basically against the definition of grinding? And that the idea is still similar to slayer (which is one of the slowest skills yet has way more 99s than some easier ones)

[Zepheras]

The prestige system is designed in mind to reward X amount of XP in Y amount of time, and you're just assuming that without it, you would get more than X amount for the same time spent. It's not like that, if you get what I mean.

 

Yeah. Saying "I should be allowed to just complete the last floor" is like saying "There should be less obstacles on this agility course"

 

The prestige system is part of the intended exp rate. Saying the system would give you faster exp if it worked different is just...well..its just really stupid. It makes no sense to say that. The same could be said for any skill. Summoning would give me faster exp if the pouches and second ingredients were stackable.

 

But you can't deny the fact that the way rewards are handed out is uncreative, and worse of all, similar to almost every activity out there. (Try trading tokens for abyssal whips)

 

Let's set aside the token cost, I'm sure those would be reduced by the time Dungeoneering 2 comes. Look at the scroll that permanently unlocks the prayer Augury. For Piety and Chivalry, you complete a short quest requiring 65 defence and 45 magic. For the magic (and ranged) counterpart, you have to get to level 77, and spend tokens to purchase them. I don't think the time spent for 77 Dungeoneering (a skill which in itself requires a decent level in other skills) is comparable to that for 65 defence, 45 magic plus a quest.

 

Next, where did Thok and Marmaros get their hands on those reward items? From their Fremmenik home? Not linked to Dungeoneering. From Daemonhelm itself? I should be directly obtaining them myself when I venture through the dungeon.

[Louisc111]

[sNIP 15 supposedly factual objections]

 

Oh sod it, I have fifteen minutes to spare, I can waste my time taking this splenetic nonsense to pieces:

 

1) Logically fallacious and subjective. Specifically a fallacy of equivocation. You are equivocating on the words "unreasonably difficult". It is a matter of demonstrable fact that obtaining rewards external to Dungeoneering is difficult compared to other skills in RS, but equivocating on the nature of that difficulty by modifiying it with "unreasonably" does not follow from the simple fact of difficulty. I.e. it doesn't follow that because something is difficult it is logically unreasonably so. No evidence has been offered to support your claim of unreasonableness. You are presenting your opinion as fact in a fallacious manner and we can discard objection 1).

 

2) Factually incorrect. It's early days, the best method of training the skill might not yet have been hit upon. Of course, in the interest of balance, it might well have been. However, since people are getting in excess of 20k xp/hr at the higher levels, and this is comparable to other "slow training" skills, then Dungeoneering doesn't appear to be particularly slow. Therefore objection 2) is factually incorrect and can be discarded.

 

Speculative tangent: I have not checked this myself, nor seen any check of it with explicit data (as opposed to mere anecdote), but is it possible that soloing complexity 1 dungeons as fast as possible adds up to soloing complexity 6 dungeons per unit time? If soloing a complexity 1 dungeon can be done in 10 minutes and gets you > 1/6th of the xp that an hour long complexity 6 dungeon gets you then the fastest way of training might not be maximising xp per dungeon. The numbers I propose here are, of course, purely speculative and for the purpose of example only.

 

3) Subjective and derived from unstated assumptions. Whilst these mismatches are a fact, the claim that this is problematic is, again, mere opinion. It is based on the assumption that a skill must necessarily provide you with a reward outside of itself. The oft touted firemaking is uncontroversially a skill which provides little to no rewards outside itself, other than quest access (more on this later). To anticipate your next irrelevance, whether or not firemaking is a "good" skill or not is immaterial. To complain that it is not a "good" skill doesn't invalidate the fact that there are skills in game that provide little to no reward outside themselves and that a spectrum of skill external rewards exists within runescape, so spare us your moving goalposts and No True Scotsman fallacies before you use them. Objection 3) can also be discarded also.

 

Speculation: Jagex may have set this up this way because, with some of the lower level rewards like the bone crusher, a player will be able to access them very simply by using Tears of Guthix/lamps/Quest rewards/Penguins in the near future. Obviously, I have no idea if this is the case or not. Merely raising level requirements for certain rewards would fail to counter this issue, merely making it more difficult. In other words Jagex seem, if this speculation is correct, not to want people to use items like the bone crusher without having actually played a lot of Dungeoneering. Since this makes these rewards unbuyable (by either xp bonuses like ToG or gp) rewards that require a lot of effort to acheive, something many people have been clamouring for, then I would have thought that this was actually a popular, even positive move. I stress I have no evidence to support this speculation.

 

4) Subjective. Of course it is an undeniable fact that this issue exists, how problematic it is a matter of personal preference. Personally, whilst annoying especially after an accidental/forced log out, this is not a major deal for me. Although, that said, I'd like it fixed because it affects the limited time I have to play RS. However, Jagex have stated this has been deliberately set up this way to prevent the servers being cluttered with a large number of empty dungeons. They have also stated they are looking into ways to circumvent the need for this restriction. It is a matter of personal preference whether you are happy to be patient regarding this. So whilst I agree, subjectively, that this is an issue, I disagree, subjctively again, that impatient jumping up and down and yelling is the best way to accomplish our desired goal. I.e. getting it fixed. Polite, constructive, carefully crafted posts on the relevant RSOF are more likely to get through, be read and be effected. Again, the real problem here is you presenting your opinion as fact. Whilst in this case your personal opinion and mine (and many others it would seem) coincide, and that opinion is regarding a factual matter, it doesn't follow that the issue in question is therefore a) a failure of this skill, B) a bug, or c) indicative of some flaw on Jagex's part as matters of fact. These are instances of opinion regarding a fact. So again, as a factual objection to this skill, 4) can be discarded.

 

Speculation: The coming fix for this problem might already be in hand and be released after the initial surge of players levelling Dungeoneering has subsided. The servers might be able to better tolerate a few thousand hanging dungeons as opposed to a few tens or hundreds of thousands.

 

5) Logically fallacious and subjective. You are equivocating on the words "too rare". This is the same form of objection as 1) and again entirely subjective. This too can be disregarded.

 

Speculation: Since we can bind item(s), and since the best items in RS (dragon, GWD items etc) are rare drops, Jagex have probably set this up this way so that we don't get a primal 2h drop on floor 1, bind it, and ace the next floors with our uber kit. This would defeat the purpose of the skill, demonstrated most clearly by the fact that we cannot import external kit into the dungeons, which is to start each dungeon from scratch, overcome the increasingly difficult obstacles within as one levels, and complete each dungeon with what we have been provided with. This skill actually requires some modicum of skill! Which is why all the semantic nonsense about mingames is hilariously ironic, but more on that later.

 

6) Since I'm not entirely sure which specific modifiers you're referring to, I'll have to request more information from you.

 

7) Logically fallacious and subjective. You are equivocating on the words "extremely, unnecessarily confusing". Again you present your opinion as fact. Anyone who finds the prestige system "extremely confusing" clearly has the IQ of a houseplant and should not be trusted with anything more harmful than yoghurt, let alone a computer. Please leave the internent now and report to your local hospital where nice people will put you into appropriate sunlight and water you. But seriously, this is yet again an equivocation and entirely subjective complaint. There is nothing wrong with subjective complaints per se, but to claim subjective complaint as fact is erroneous. More on that later too. Objection 7) can be discarded.

 

8) Logically fallacious, subjective and derived from false assumptions/argument from ignorance. Whether or not the countdown is "silly" is a matter of personal opinion (is anyone beginning to see a pattern to Qeltar's baseless objections yet?), not fact. You are assuming that the countdown isn't necessary for some reason and provide no evidence that this is the case. There are many possible reasons for the countdown (generating new dungeon maps, checking available server space, allowing team members to catch up, some other specific programming reason etc), and whilst I have no evidence that any specific one (or even all of them) is the case you are effectively asking us to believe that Jagex inserted the countdown with no reason to do so. Either way, the necessity of the countdown is simple to reslove: go to the RSOF and ask a simple, polite question of the relevant people in the relevant forum. Objection 8) joins most of its chums in the discard pile, at least provisionally. If Jagex come back with the answer "The countdown is completely unnecessary, we inserted it to annoy Qeltar" then it gets reinstated.

 

9) Subjective. Again this assumes this to be a problem not a feature. The lower complexity levels are clearly designed for young RS/new to RS players as an introduction, also older RS players (in both senses) new to Dungeoneering wishing a simple introduction, and players wishing to play simple dungeons.

 

Also, flash forward to when Dungeoneering xp is available from penguins etc. It is theoretically possible for someone to have 70 Dungeoneering without setting foot below floor 1 of Demonheim. They could then play through the floors as simply as possible to reach the end of Demonheim and access all floors. This feature, whilst poor xp/dungeon this offers a potentially quicker route through Demonheim.

 

You are, yet again, presenting your opinion as a factual flaw in Dungeoneering when it isn't. Objection 9) can be discarded.

 

10) Subjective and factually incorrect. The lower complexity levels are not completely useless, see above for simple examples. Objection 10) can be discarded.

 

11) Factually incorrect. You are not forced to replay lower level content as the shallower floors are not necessarily lower level. The difficulty of the dungeon you face is only in part determined by the floor, the party raiding the floor is also a determinant. You are also not in any way forced to do this. The best training method I am aware of involves you doing this but no one is forcing you to adhere to this. For example, I have got to 90 crafting by making battlestaves and glass orbs on a daily basis using the resources from my Varrock armour, Bert etc. This is far from the most efficient way to train the skill in terms of speed etc but it is the way I have gradually trained the skill because I enjoy doing it. I can get better xp rates by other means but I am not forced to do so any more than I am forced to train combat on experiments or what have you. In RS you can train your character in a variety of ways all with different efficiences. Someone should have pointed this out to you by now. Objection 11) can be discarded.

 

12) SInce you have not been specific about which aspects of this you consider "poor" I cannot comment. Like objection 6) more information is needed. That said, I will note that this objection appears to follow the form of previous objections: i.e. it is probably entirely subjective, possibly based on false assumptions, likely fallacious and opinion presented as fact. I can only dissect objections with some form of substance to them.

 

13) Subjective. Like 4) I agree with you from a personal standpoint. However, that doesn't render the objection factual. Of course I'd like more bound items, I'd also like a Ferrari, world peace and a couple of billion pounds sterling in the bank for good measure. As mentioned above, the clear point of Dunegoneering is to play each dungeon almost from scratch (you get some kit at the start). Many bound items would defeat this purpose. However, that said, whether the balance of the number of bound items is correct is a subjective issue. Since many people complain that RS is getting easier and that this is a bad thing, I'd think that the fact that we have an actual challenge here (small though it might be) is a positive note. Your mileage may vary. Opinion as fact yet again, 13) can be discarded.

 

14) Logically fallacious, factually incorrect and subjective. See 1), 5), 7) and 8). The fact that you can use practically all your RS skills within the dungeons, the balance of your RS skills affects how the dungeon is constructed and the balance of the party's skills affect the dungeon all demonstrate that this is so well integrated into RS that your objection is utterly counterfactual. What use one's Dungeoneering level is outside Demonheim is another matter. The fact that your Dungeoneering level affects which reward items you can use outside Demonheim, how many tokens you have earned inside Demonheim determines what reward items you can use outside Demonheim and the fact that you earn small amounts of xp in other skills inside Demonheim all demonstrate that Dungeoneering has a measurable impact on RS external to itself. This is the very definition of a well integrated skill. Objection 14 can be discarded.

 

15) Logically fallacious and subjective. You are equivocating on the words "laughably unfair". Whether this happens to be unfair is also a matter of personal opinion. Objection 15) can be discarded.

 

Recap:

 

Out of 15 supposedly indisputably factual objections to Dungeoneering you have managed to make not a single wholly factual objection, pending further information on 2 objections. Well done! You have routinely presented your opinion as fact, equivocated over the meanings of words to give yourself the opportunity to shift the goalposts when challenge, and stated a few things that are observably counterfactual. Bravo!

 

End of Part One!

[Louisc111]

Two further observations, invitations to kiss your donkey as a manner to avoid/dissuade argument, which is clearly what you are doing, is pathetic. I understand that you are an adult. Utterly shameful. If my ten month old kid behaved that petulantly I'd cut him up and feed him to pigs. (Ok not really, but I watched the movie Snatch recently, and that amused me). This game has a large number of kids playing it and this forum has a not insignificant number of young posters on it, you attempting to bully people into silence is utterly pathetic. Do better and do better fast. Also this:

 

It is what it is. Jagex can call a turnip a hamburger if they want, but that doesn't make it so.

 

And referring to the Emperor's New Clothes betrays such a lack of basic comprehension and unwarranted arrogance I can only gaze on in awe. Look up the Dunning-Kruger effect. First, Jagex are not the creators of hamburgers or turnips, they are not in a position to define either object in any manner seeing as both objects are defined by criteria not in Jagex's control. Jagex are the creators of RS and as such have the intellectual right to call whatever objects/features that appear in their game whatever they like. Second, the semantic quibbling over minigame/skill is, as noted above ironic since this is the first skill in RS that actually requires some skill to train. Not much I grant, but a non-zero amont. Whether or not this skill has features of a minigame or not, it equally has features of a skill. If, and I am by no means conceding anything by saying this, Jagex have expanded what a skill in RS is then that is their right as owners of the intellectual property that is RS. Your comparison fails on that basis alone. You are not comparing like with like.

 

Third, to arrogantly pre-dismiss any who might differ with your frequently stated opinions as being somehow in thrall to Jagex and unable to penetrate the veil of deception they have woven, a la Emperor's New Clothes, is more than pathetic. Especially seeing as the formation of a coherent. fact based, logical argument is clearly beyond you based on this effort, and many others. I suggest a massive dose of perspective. You are misusing the story.

 

Fourth, the minigame that Dungeoneering most resembles is Stealing Creation, where novel instanced maps are created and designed to be solved in teams for maximum efficiency. In SC there is a) no earning of "internal" SC xp, B) no earning of "external" xp in other skills and c) no progressive content. Now, Dungeoneering has some features in common with SC, the instanced nature, the advantages of team efficiency and the reward for "tokens" aspect, all this is undeniable, however in Dungeoneering you have the earning of both internal and external xp and the earning of access to progressive content. Factors that determine every skill in RS. Dungeoneering also has a backstory and boss fights, both features of quests, and yet I don't see you calling it a quest! Just like Slayer, you can earn tokens to exchange for content. Just like slayer you have the earning of internal and external xp. Just like Construction it occurs in an instanced area. The list goes on. So those features at least aren't unique to mingames. Has Jagex expanded its definition of an RS skill with Dungeoneering , I think so yes, but the progressive nature and manner in which content is earned is the very hallmark of an RS skill.

 

Either way, as said above, what *I* define it as is immaterial, the people who have created it call it one thing, it has many of the features of previous things they have called the same thing. This coupled to the progressive nature of the content and how xp is earned make it a skill, albeit a skill with other features. To make semantic quibbles over whether or not Dungeoneering (or anything) is X or Y is bad enough, to behave as if that quibble constitutes valid critique, a genuine flaw of Dungeoneering, or some matter of fact is simply feeble. Also, the "it's either A or B" type statements regarding skill or minigame are stupid and fall foul of essentialist thinking. In RS at least the definition of what a skill is is pretty broad to start with given the diversity we've got.

 

Complaining about percieved limitations of current (largely unexplored) new content ignores the fact that there will very likely be future content of relevance. Modificationsof xp/drop/reward rates are definite possibilities if needed, but what most interests me is the scope this skill gives the game. Dungeoneering has definitely added more possibilities. Better quests, more instanced areas than Demonheim, other tie ins. Jagex has been pretty imaginative in the past with developing stuff, so I'm moderately hopeful.

 

End of Part 2!

 

Lastly, I see people like yourself and MHL whine endlessly about new content. When confronted about your whining you rush for the "critic's defense" (I don't have to be able to do something to critique it) or retreat to a "free speech" issue (it's my opinion I can express it if I like). I'll take the latter first. Of course you are entitled to express your opinion, go right ahead, I even encourage it. However, if you do, expect people to argue with you. Dismissing their arguments out of hand, simply ignoring them, pretending that opinions are facts, that all opinions are somehow equally valid, and failing to even bother to make a coherent case in your criticism are the hallmarks of a moron. Expect people to notice that and say so.

 

As for the critic's defense, it's wrong. Utterly wrong. To be able to critique effectively you need to be able to understand something very well. To understand something very well you need to be able to at least do it competently. You're clearly capable of putting time and effort into a project, Truthscape/Runescoop didn't spring ex nihilo, then why not channel those energies more constructively? There are genuine issues like the mismatches between the knowledge base information and the in game to be solved, higlight those. You frequenrtly slam Jagex for what you claim (evidence free mostly) are its failings, and every item you don't like is claimed (rightly or wrongly) as a point in favour of this view. Usually it isn't. Rather than waste your valuable time and genius why don't you do something? Andrew Gower started RS from his parents' house with the help of his brother and a chum. He is now a mutlimillionaire and RS is one of the most successful online games. Surely with all the gaping flaws you see in RS, your incredible insight and computing abilities are being wasted. Why in just a few short years you too could be a multimillionaire. I'm not being sarcastic....well I'm not only being sarcastic. Stop telling people how wrong their ideas and products are, get off your duff and make something better. You are very fast to complain and tell people how they can do something better and yet I see nothing productive coming from you. By no means is this necessarily a problem, but it is indicative of the armchair critic. At the very least why not write up a coherent, fact based alternative to the flawed content you claim exists. The ability to create trumps the ability to complain every time.

 

In reality all you are doing is making post hoc rationalisations of your dislike and disappointment. It's not clever, it's certainly not constructive and it's little more than infantile.

 

Yeah, I know, TL;DR.