Mod Mark H reveal RuneFest item 2010

[ArtemisCatal]

This is real life money equaling an in game item and I am extremely disillusioned with all of this.

 

And to the people calling us selfish and childish: You need to get a grip.

 

This world of ours is unfair, horribly, wretchedly, so much of the time. But we all start out Runescape exactly the same. Sure, real life issues affect how much leisure time a person has, but still, our Runescape character is our chance to escape the things going on the big bad unfair world out there and have a little fun in a world where we have far more control over what goes on than we do in real life, and where real life economics doesn’t affect our standing in game.

 

This is a stab in the gut to some of us who thought that Runescape would be the one place we could truly escape our real life situations, a place where our real life situations would never bleed over. If we didn’t move up the ranks as fast as others, at least we weren’t’ missing out on things that could never be gotten again. Instead, now we get to see people walking around with something that they got because of real life money.

 

And one more thing, membership is different. At anytime in the future a person can get membership, and get the exact same items any member account has to day (except for the wintubertree *shakes fist*). If I win the lottery the day after runefest, I still won’t be able to get a Runefest banner. Not because I didn’t play the game at the time, but because I didn’t have the money at the time. One who can’t afford membership now, can always hope they can afford it latter. If I was f2p when godswords were released, I can still buy membership today and get a godsword. It's not a time sensitive.

 

In how far you progress in the game, time is the great equilizer, you can always one day hope that you will catch up.

 

edit to qeltar: trying to make the world more fair, or at least trying to keep it for getting less unfair, is a battle I've been losing for pages now, and not even just on this thread.

 

edit: Jagex owns our acounts, we just lease them. They can edit any of our items they choice. That doesn't make it right. It doesn't make it legitimate with the contract/social contract we have entered into with them.

[Soma2035]

Are you really ignorant enough to believe that real world money doesn't affect your status in Runescape?

Are you really going to stand there and argue that because life is unfair, that justifies a company deliberately making it *more* unfair, via something they claimed was intended to "thank their customers"?

 

Bizarre.

 

No, I'm pointing out that calling this unfair is ridiculous. You're prosecuting the 9 year old boy for picking up a dollar bill that someone dropped and keeping it, and turning a blind eye to the bank robber down the street.

[qeltar]

They can turn around and not give the item, or make it so the item disappears after Rune Fest, or change the item however they like. They did not legally agree to give you this item in exchange for money.

Not only is this utterly beside the point, it's not even necessarily accurate. Are you a lawyer? Somehow, I doubt it.

 

No, I'm pointing out that calling this unfair is ridiculous. You're prosecuting the 9 year old boy for picking up a dollar bill that someone dropped and keeping it, and turning a blind eye to the bank robber down the street.

That analogy is too asinine to even bother responding to.

 

The heart of the matter is that Jagex is supposed to be doing this to thank all of their customers. Deliberately doing something so petty and divisive is not justifiable using the "life's not fair" canard.

[xxshady]

The funny thing is that no matter how passionately you argue about this non-issue, Jagex isn't going to change their mindset.

 

Carry on now kids, this is entertaining.

[Soma2035]

They can turn around and not give the item, or make it so the item disappears after Rune Fest, or change the item however they like. They did not legally agree to give you this item in exchange for money.

Not only is this utterly beside the point, it's not even necessarily accurate. Are you a lawyer? Somehow, I doubt it.

 

No, I'm pointing out that calling this unfair is ridiculous. You're prosecuting the 9 year old boy for picking up a dollar bill that someone dropped and keeping it, and turning a blind eye to the bank robber down the street.

That analogy is too asinine to even bother responding to.

 

The heart of the matter is that Jagex is supposed to be doing this to thank all of their customers. Deliberately doing something so petty and divisive is not justifiable using the "life's not fair" canard.

 

Actually, I have indeed studied business law and will be studying it further. If you feel Jagex wronged you, you could try to sue, but their terms clearly have them covered. For one, when you purchase the ticket, to my knowledge it doesn't state that you are also purchasing a redemption code for an item. Secondly, Jagex clearly retains possession of all Runescape accounts, and therefore all items on them, so they can change them on a whim as they desire.

 

They aren't selling you an item. Even if you have to buy something else to get the "free" item, the item isn't legally sold.

 

And how is the analogy asinine? The point isn't that "life isn't fair". Don't put words in my mouth. The point is that calling this flag a "real world advantage" is utterly ridiculous. And even more so when you consider that real life undeniably conveys several real advantages. The flag is only a real world advantage in the loosest sense of the term... like picking up a dropped dollar bill and keeping it is only stealing in the loosest sense of the term.

[qeltar]

Actually, I have indeed studied business law and will be studying it further.

Okay, so you're *not* a lawyer, but you feel comfortable pretending to be one. Whatever floats your boat, I suppose. But you're still not a lawyer.

 

I could do the same, saying that I feel pretty confident that if Jagex advertised a benefit as being tied to the purchase of a ticket and reneged on it, that they could be sued.

 

Which of us is correct? Nobody knows, but the presence of the question nicely tosses your neat little "legality" argument out on its ear. Companies have been sued for less, and the matter of the "gift" versus the "purchase" is not nearly as cut-and-dried as you'd like to pretend.

 

 

The point is that calling this flag a "real world advantage" is utterly ridiculous.

Why is it ridiculous? You're engaging in enough hand-waving here to propel a sailboat.

 

An item that can only be obtained with money gives an advantage to those with money.

 

It is Jagex themselves that said they didn't want money to be a factor in who owns what. So why get pissed off at people who hold them to their word?

 

The argument that it's okay for Jagex to do something that's unfair to poor players because life is already unfair to poor players is nonsensical.

[ArtemisCatal]

They can turn around and not give the item, or make it so the item disappears after Rune Fest, or change the item however they like. They did not legally agree to give you this item in exchange for money.

Not only is this utterly beside the point, it's not even necessarily accurate. Are you a lawyer? Somehow, I doubt it.

 

No, I'm pointing out that calling this unfair is ridiculous. You're prosecuting the 9 year old boy for picking up a dollar bill that someone dropped and keeping it, and turning a blind eye to the bank robber down the street.

That analogy is too asinine to even bother responding to.

 

The heart of the matter is that Jagex is supposed to be doing this to thank all of their customers. Deliberately doing something so petty and divisive is not justifiable using the "life's not fair" canard.

 

Actually, I have indeed studied business law and will be studying it further. If you feel Jagex wronged you, you could try to sue, but their terms clearly have them covered. For one, when you purchase the ticket, to my knowledge it doesn't state that you are also purchasing a redemption code for an item. Secondly, Jagex clearly retains possession of all Runescape accounts, and therefore all items on them, so they can change them on a whim as they desire.

 

They aren't selling you an item. Even if you have to buy something else to get the "free" item, the item isn't legally sold.

 

And how is the analogy asinine? The point isn't that "life isn't fair". Don't put words in my mouth. The point is that calling this flag a "real world advantage" is utterly ridiculous. And even more so when you consider that real life undeniably conveys several real advantages. The flag is only a real world advantage in the loosest sense of the term... like picking up a dropped dollar bill and keeping it is only stealing in the loosest sense of the term.

 

This has nothing to do with law and everything to do with ethics. If the financial meltdown was not enough to show you that the law is deficient to make companies do the right thing, then nothing will.

 

It comes down to yes, Jagex can do what ever the hell they want with our accounts, but that they should keep the promises they made. Tomorrow, for you stanch defense of the Jagex company line, they could add to your account 100 godswords. But seriously, should they? Is that in keeping with the game philosophy? Is that build fun and goodwill in the game? Does it make the game better? Or does it just ruin the game for some people without any benifit to the game as a whole? These are the essential questions of balancing the game.

[jsboutin2]

 

The point is that calling this flag a "real world advantage" is utterly ridiculous.

Why is it ridiculous? You're engaging in enough hand-waving here to propel a sailboat.

 

An item that can only be obtained with money gives an advantage to those with money.

 

It is Jagex themselves that said they didn't want money to be a factor in who owns what. So why get pissed off at people who hold them to their word?

 

The argument that it's okay for Jagex to do something that's unfair to poor players because life is already unfair to poor players is nonsensical.

 

It's hardly an advantage when said item doesn't do anything.

 

And I don't think Jagex thought people would like it so much.

 

I don't think anyone would be paying 75 pounds only for a banner.

[Soma2035]

Actually, I have indeed studied business law and will be studying it further.

Okay, so you're *not* a lawyer, but you feel comfortable pretending to be one. Whatever floats your boat, I suppose. But you're still not a lawyer.

 

I could do the same, saying that I feel pretty confident that if Jagex advertised a benefit as being tied to the purchase of a ticket and reneged on it, that they could be sued.

 

Which of us is correct? Nobody knows, but the presence of the question nicely tosses your neat little "legality" argument out on its ear. Companies have been sued for less, and the matter of the "gift" versus the "purchase" is not nearly as cut-and-dried as you'd like to pretend.

 

 

The point is that calling this flag a "real world advantage" is utterly ridiculous.

Why is it ridiculous? You're engaging in enough hand-waving here to propel a sailboat.

 

An item that can only be obtained with money gives an advantage to those with money.

 

It is Jagex themselves that said they didn't want money to be a factor in who owns what. So why get pissed off at people who hold them to their word?

 

The argument that it's okay for Jagex to do something that's unfair to poor players because life is already unfair to poor players is nonsensical.

 

I'm not trying to pretend to be a lawyer. I don't plan to be a lawyer. But taking classes in law and learning the fundamentals of justice systems is crucial to many career paths, and more importantly, lets you protect your own rights.

 

Yes, companies have been sued for less. McDonalds has been sued for making girls fat. But that doesn't change the actual contract made when you purchase a product. According to the agreement you made with Jagex, in creating your account, you are borrowing their software. This is in the terms and conditions for anyone to read - whether this is fair or not could be a matter for the courts to decide if it comes to it, but the terms you agreed to in creating your account is that Jagex retains ownership of "your" account, "your" items, and thus can change them with impunity.

 

The terms of your purchase are very clear as well. You are paying for a ticket to their event, Runefest, to be held in the UK. They are obligated to host the event. There is no obligation to give you gifts.

 

You can sue for practically anything, what you can be sued for is completely irrelevant. The point is, there is no agreement, no legal obligation, to give you the flag. Therefore it's not a sale. If you can't accept the simple logic of it, then continuing this path is futile, but you can give it a rest with your "the payment is for both the flag and the ticket," because it's not, and anyone with an ounce of common sense can see why it's not.

 

I find it ridiculous because we can not even agree that it is an advantage. Plenty of people have posted saying "it's just a flag."

 

We tolerate the remaining RWT. In fact, many players welcome it unknowingly. We understand and accept that other players with more real-world money can purchase better gaming hardware than us. We understand that these are advantages granted by real-world situations. And we scream bloody murder about a flag that we can't even all agree is an advantage? Yes, Qeltar, I think this is ridiculous. This is the little boy who picked up money and didn't return it. Sure, he knows he should give it back. Sure, he knows it doesn't belong to him. But it's in the gray area. And when we readily and clearly accept what's fully in the black, [bleep]ing about the gray area is nonsensical.

 

If you disagree, that's fine. But like someone said above, Jagex probably isn't going to change their mind on this... and many players are behind Jagex, not because they are "Jagex Fanboys" as you have so accused us, but because they have a different opinion. And if you can't accept that, then perhaps you are as petty as those who would spend $120 on a virtual flag.

 

This has nothing to do with law and everything to do with ethics. If the financial meltdown was not enough to show you that the law is deficient to make companies do the right thing, then nothing will.

 

It comes down to yes, Jagex can do what ever the hell they want with our accounts, but that they should keep the promises they made. Tomorrow, for you stanch defense of the Jagex company line, they could add to your account 100 godswords. But seriously, should they? Is that in keeping with the game philosophy? Is that build fun and goodwill in the game? Does it make the game better? Or does it just ruin the game for some people without any benifit to the game as a whole? These are the essential questions of balancing the game.

 

You missed my point entirely. Yes, Jagex can do whatever the hell they want. No, they shouldn't. But that's not my point at all.

 

My point is that they are not selling anyone flags. They are selling tickets. They are giving out flags of their own volition, and not in exchange for money received. Therefore, it's a gift, and not a sale.

[ArtemisCatal]

 

The point is that calling this flag a "real world advantage" is utterly ridiculous.

Why is it ridiculous? You're engaging in enough hand-waving here to propel a sailboat.

 

An item that can only be obtained with money gives an advantage to those with money.

 

It is Jagex themselves that said they didn't want money to be a factor in who owns what. So why get pissed off at people who hold them to their word?

 

The argument that it's okay for Jagex to do something that's unfair to poor players because life is already unfair to poor players is nonsensical.

 

It's hardly an advantage when said item doesn't do anything.

 

And I don't think Jagex thought people would like it so much.

 

I don't think anyone would be paying 75 pounds only for a banner.

 

 

it fills up one space in my treasure box. voila, you now have a use for the item. Not that the use matters.... because the argument is not about what the item is, but the very exsistance of the item and how it is aquired.

[Den]

So we've gone over to the "What if Jagex removed the item/took it away after/before RuneFest" now eh? :P

 

Its really bad PR if a company says "We are giving out gifts if you buy this!" then the next day say they want all the gifts back.

I would say it wouldnt be suable, but it would put the company in a bad light for future give-outs and in general.

[Soma2035]

So we've gone over to the "What if Jagex removed the item/took it away after/before RuneFest" now eh? :P

 

Its really bad PR if a company says "We are giving out gifts if you buy this!" then the next day say they want all the gifts back.

I would say it would be suable, but it would put the company in a bad light for future give-outs and in general.

 

It's definitely horrible PR. I don't disagree. There probably will be lawsuits, because, as Qeltar mentioned, some players really are petty enough to spend their money on a ticket and not attend the Runefest - they only want the flag.

 

But from the transaction itself, they do have the right to retract it, because the gift isn't being exchanged for anything in particular. In fact, my understanding is that several players already purchased their tickets before the gift was announced or discovered.

 

The whims of a court are directed by the lawyers. Whether they are sued and whether they are forced to pay damages isn't really relevant, because my only point was that they are not selling the flag...

 

EDIT: Also, if they are sued, it would more likely be for false advertising than fraud... but again, good lawyers can make anything stick or fall apart so going down that route seems fairly pointless.

[Den]

Ment to say wouldnt be sued, but you never know really. There's always gotta be a first.

 

I also do think that they arent selling the flag, but the tickets. The flag being the gift though the flag could have been implemented a lot better.

I kinda agree with both sides. :P

[das]

Alot of posters here - are under $18

Under $18 means youre poor?

Under 18 years of age - Try posting from your cell :P

[Soma2035]

Ment to say wouldnt be sued, but you never know really. There's always gotta be a first.

 

I also do think that they arent selling the flag, but the tickets. The flag being the gift though the flag could have been implemented a lot better.

I kinda agree with both sides. :P

 

Personally, I think it would've been better if they never announced it and simply gave it out at Runefest to those attending...

[brunokiller]

My point is that they are not selling anyone flags. They are selling tickets. They are giving out flags of their own volition, and not in exchange for money received. Therefore, it's a gift, and not a sale.

 

You pay 75 pound; you get the banner

 

You pay nothing; you do not get the banner.

 

Doesn't sound like 'giving out'.

 

Personally, I think it would've been better if they never announced it and simply gave it out at Runefest to those attending...

 

Very true..

[Den]

Ment to say wouldnt be sued, but you never know really. There's always gotta be a first.

 

I also do think that they arent selling the flag, but the tickets. The flag being the gift though the flag could have been implemented a lot better.

I kinda agree with both sides. :P

 

Personally, I think it would've been better if they never announced it and simply gave it out at Runefest to those attending...

 

I agree, though would suck for people who couldnt go. Im an item collector myself so I feel for those who cant get the banner but want it.

[Soma2035]

My point is that they are not selling anyone flags. They are selling tickets. They are giving out flags of their own volition, and not in exchange for money received. Therefore, it's a gift, and not a sale.

 

You pay 75 pound; you get the banner

 

You pay nothing; you do not get the banner.

 

Doesn't sound like 'giving out'.

 

You pay for the event. They give a memento to those who attend the event. You are not paying for the memento. If they were to change their mind, and decide not to give this memento to attendees, it is well within their rights. They may invite lawsuits for false advertising by doing so, but you never gave them anything in exchange for the memento, and therefore they don't have to give it to you. Therefore, it's not a sale...

[Obtaurian]

You pay for the event. They give a memento to those who attend the event. You are not paying for the memento. If they were to change their mind, and decide not to give this memento to attendees, it is well within their rights. They may invite lawsuits for false advertising by doing so, but you never gave them anything in exchange for the memento, and therefore they don't have to give it to you. Therefore, it's not a sale...

 

However, it is possible to "buy" the memento by simply not attending the event, which is a major sticking point for a lot of people.

[Xecer]

Well, since the item really isn't anything exciting.. I sure hope that the festival is fun for the people who are going :)

[qeltar]

They give a memento to those who attend the event.

Maybe you keep repeating this because if it actually *were* true, it would support your position.

 

The problem is that it *isn't* true.

 

They are not giving out a momento to "those who attend the event". They are giving out a moment to *those who purchase a ticket*.

 

They're not the same thing. At all.

 

And the fact that they can change their minds about the item is irrelevant. They can change their minds about anything associated with the event. They could sell tickets for $125 and have the entire event consist of 10 hours of watching old home movies and eating stale chips. That doesn't mean that it would be right, fair, or even legal to do so. It also doesn't mean that because they have the power to not do anything they actually promised on that date, that you weren't paying in part to get those things.

[Soma2035]

They give a memento to those who attend the event.

Maybe you keep repeating this because if it actually *were* true, it would support your position.

 

The problem is that it *isn't* true.

 

They are not giving out a momento to "those who attend the event". They are giving out a moment to *those who purchase a ticket*.

 

They're not the same thing. At all.

 

And the fact that they can change their minds about the item is irrelevant. They can change their minds about anything associated with the event. They could sell tickets for $125 and have the entire event consist of 10 hours of watching old home movies and eating stale chips. That doesn't mean that it would be right, fair, or even legal to do so. It also doesn't mean that because they have the power to not do anything they actually promised on that date, that you weren't paying in part to get those things.

 

But what they can't do is get rid of the event.

 

They can get rid of the memento, because it's not part of the agreed upon transaction. They can't get rid of the event. It's not so much relevant to the point as to attest to what you're paying for, and what you aren't, and what you aren't paying for is the flag.

 

And yes, I suppose people who purchase the ticket without attending can get the reward. As I mentioned, I can agree that it was poorly designed in that people who don't care about the event can still get it... although I still don't understand why someone would want a sign saying "Runefest 2010" if they weren't at Runefest 2010...

[qeltar]

They can get rid of the memento, because it's not part of the agreed upon transaction. They can't get rid of the event. It's not so much relevant to the point as to attest to what you're paying for, and what you aren't, and what you aren't paying for is the flag.

Again, you can keep repeating this, but it doesn't make it true for everyone. Some people *are* paying for the flag. You may wish that weren't so, and Jagex may wish that weren't so, but it *is* so. Just like some of the people going for wiffle-bat day at the ballpark aren't there to watch the hometown boys, they are there for the wiffle bat.

 

ETA: Even if Jagex wishes this weren't so, for them not to have been able to predict this would happen is hard to comprehend.

 

Even if Jagex has the *legal* right to not provide this flagstaff -- which I don't necessarily agree with -- that doesn't change anything. This is not a court of law, it's a court of public opinion. As *soon* as Jagex dangled this thing in front of people saying "buy a ticket and get this e-trinket" they gave up the ethical right to tell *anyone* that they were not paying to get that thing.

[jsboutin2]

They can get rid of the memento, because it's not part of the agreed upon transaction. They can't get rid of the event. It's not so much relevant to the point as to attest to what you're paying for, and what you aren't, and what you aren't paying for is the flag.

Again, you can keep repeating this, but it doesn't make it true for everyone. Some people *are* paying for the flag. You may wish that weren't so, and Jagex may wish that weren't so, but it *is* so. Just like some of the people going for wiffle-bat day at the ballpark aren't there to watch the hometown boys, they are there for the wiffle bat.

 

Even if Jagex has the *legal* right to not provide this flagstaff -- which I don't necessarily agree with -- that doesn't change anything. This is not a court of law, it's a court of public opinion. As *soon* as Jagex dangled this thing in front of people saying "buy a ticket and get this e-trinket" they gave up the ethical right to tell *anyone* that they were not paying to get that thing.

 

The way I see it, it was much more of a publicity for Runefest than saying"Hey, forget the party, you'll be getting a banner!". Can you think for one second about shedding out the money, which ain't that much for this kind of event, but still better to have in your pockets than out, for a simple banner? I wouldn't, and most people feel the same way as I do. IMO, it's nice fr them to have a little something ingame to remember about that event, and to talk to other people who went there.

[strilmus]

I'm not believing anybody's claims until I see hard proof that somebody has paid just for the banner and plans to get rid of the ticket instead of using it.