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Mod Mark H reveal RuneFest item 2010


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Rough estimate of my expenses (plane ticket from Asia, lodging, pocket money) over 4k USD :wall:

I'd like something more than a flag. Something "limited con edition", tangible item which I can put on display along with my other collectibles.

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Alright guys,

[Administrative post]

enough with the poor and not poor comments.

 

Alot of posters here - are under $18 - that means unless parents decide to fly them to england, not happening no matter how rich parents may be.

More posters here - are college/uni students, Thats like a special zone of poverty. ;P

 

Even if you can afford it - it's still a BIG trip, that unless you make six figures (not everyone does) that's a pretty pricey thing, Statistically most middle class American families spend less on vacation then what this event costs .

[/administrative post]

"Any people anywhere, being inclined and having the power, have the right to rise up, and shake off the existing government, and form a new one that suits them better. This is a most valuable - a most sacred right - a right, which we hope and believe, is to liberate the world."

Abraham Lincoln

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I read this whole oddly hilarious topic

 

It's not a commemorative item when you don't actually have to attend to get it. Nor is it a gift when you have to pay for it.

 

I know games that host 10+ events a year, and a particular one that hosts ~2/month, and those games don't even have 10% of the fan base of this game. It costs maximum 30$ to get you in any of these events.

 

But this one: £75 and 18+? Looks like they've been working hard to alienate most of the fan base. *chuckle*

2480+ total

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The car lease analogy falls apart. Sure we lease our runescape charactor from Jagex. Part of our contract with them has to do with updates, etc. But when we take our car to have its oil change (a la, jagex update), we don't expect them to do a total 180 on previously stated service policy (in this analogy, not to paint our car) and suddenly paint our car yellow. That is what they are doing with this money for in game item, which most people understood them promising not to do.

 

 

edit to below: no, it just means you have virtually no meaningful control over you life if you happen to live in the United States. Litterly the day before your 18th birthday, you could be arrested and forcably returned to your parents home for trying to board a plane and fly to England without your parrents permission. Most police departments probably wouldn't do it, but your parents have no legal ramifications from doing what is nessasary to restrain you from going beyond what would count as assualt, which when its parent 'disciple', is pretty liniant statute. And there is nothing protecting you from your parent confinscating all of your money at any time because basically you can't own property till you turn 18 (though there is some protection for money you actually make yourself, but you still legally don't have discression how to spend that money till you are 18)

 

I'm not saying other places don't have it better, I just know this is the reality of the situation where I live, should your parents chose that.

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Alot of posters here - are under $18

Under $18 means youre poor?

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Felix, je moeder.

Je moeder felix

Je vader, felix.

Felix, je oma.

Felix, je ongelofelijk gave pwnaze avatar B)

Felix, je moeder.

[/hide]

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Interesting post from MMH on RS official forums:

"I am a gamer.

 

I have been gaming a LONG time.

 

I play one of the big MMOs out there. People get rewards for attending conventions and events that I couldn't dream of attending.

 

Do I get mad? Do I moan at the company because I can't go?

 

No.

 

~ MMH ~"

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Alot of posters here - are under $18

Under $18 means youre poor?

 

I'm pretty sure he means under 18 years of age. I believe this is the drinking age in England, and thus the age requirement to attend this event.

 

On a side note, the KB says you have to have purchased a ticket to runefest, and then you will be emailed the code. No where does it say that you actually have to attend. Maybe buying a ticket is enough, no plane trip or hotel booking needed, just get your ticket and sit at home.................. Still costs 79 pounds tho, about 120 dollars. Better then the cost of tickets and hotel and everything else tho.

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Interesting post from MMH on RS official forums:

"I am a gamer.

 

I have been gaming a LONG time.

 

I play one of the big MMOs out there. People get rewards for attending conventions and events that I couldn't dream of attending.

 

Do I get mad? Do I moan at the company because I can't go?

 

No.

 

~ MMH ~"

 

The free stuff they get for attending the event is not the point. The real world cash = in game item is the point. The total 180 in philosophy with out any reason, or any statement, or anything is the reason people are upset. Real life items are fine, great, give people mountains of stuff. But they didn’t have to put an item in game. Let other games that have not made a philosophical commitment to there players put in game items for real world cash, other games are not my concern and what they have done has no bearing on this at all. There is a difference between real world stuff and Runescape stuff. This is basically breaking the fourth wall between real life and Runescape life.

 

And do you really expect a jmod to come out against this, publicly on RSOF at least? They work to produce a wall of solidarity that is almost ludicrous sometimes.

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Oh, wait, my bad. The burning hat example was from the RWT days. Hah. Sorry about that. Hold on, lemme find the one I'm using for this instance.

 

....

 

....

 

Okay, got it.

 

[spoiler=Silly example]Years ago, a man has become notoriously famous for a crime organization that specializes in black market trade that he has set up in your country. Trade is conducted through manipulation of your country's most popular sport at the time. His activities become so deeply entrenched in the workings of your economy that people have regularly accepted his operations as "business as usual". But the other countries are furious at his presence within your country, and claim that you are harboring him on purpose. They will place an embargo on all trade with your country, effectively strangling the life out of it, unless you agree to get rid of that man. So you do a full shakedown and effectively remove his organization, ultimately shutting the sport down. People are furious at your decision, but the situation was so bad that delaying action would have been too late. Enacting a less harsh policy would have allowed him to wiggle through your fingers, and had been previously attempted to no avail. Despite the rioting, you take a bold stance on the issue in order to make a point of how serious the issue is. And you decide not to legalize and regulate the activities due to the fact that the right of fair market is important to all of your citizens. Or at least, you think it is. You have your doubts since they allowed such activities (to the extent of participating in them) to go on largely unnoticed to the degree that got your country in trouble in the first place.

 

You try to replace the sport with similar other activities that would be safe from outside manipulation, but it is to no avail. People are dead set on what they had before, no changes. You almost give up on putting it back altogether, wanting to sweep this ugly mess under the rug and move on. However, they will not let go of the issue. So, after years of struggle, you finally come up with a solution, that despite the fact that it will have a largely negative impact for years to come, is pretty much okay with the folks you were trying to appease.

 

After a while, you decide to throw a festival to celebrate what looks like a revival in your country's spirits. With the modified sport in place, somewhat restored acceptance of national policy, and perhaps overly optimistic enthusiasm at the prospect of being successful once more, you feel that it would be kinda awesome. People are disappointed when they find out that it is at an inconvenient time and an inconvenient place, not to mention that you are charging admission, but since you are new at this, the costs are a bit high, and you have no idea if it will be successful at all. You regret the inability for many of your citizens to attend, but know that it would be impossible to get everybody in, and accept this fact. However, as a blind gesture of good will, you decide to give all who are able to participate some souvenirs to commemorate the occasion.

 

By sheer coincidence, one of the souvenirs has a logo on it, that turned upside down and perhaps squinted at a bit, looks like the man you kicked out of your country years ago.

 

 

So, how to save face?

 

Now that you've gone and stepped in it....might as well go all the way. Just give the flags to everybody. They will regard them as useless, a stupid gesture to trick them, or perhaps just too little too late, but nobody will be able to say that you didn't try.

 

Perhaps being a bit more open with your plans would have made things smoother, but you are reluctant to share your ideas after your country has become very cynical since they lost their original most popular sport.

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Interesting post from MMH on RS official forums:

"I am a gamer.

 

I have been gaming a LONG time.

 

I play one of the big MMOs out there. People get rewards for attending conventions and events that I couldn't dream of attending.

 

Do I get mad? Do I moan at the company because I can't go?

 

No.

 

~ MMH ~"

 

The free stuff they get for attending the event is not the point. The real world cash = in game item is the point. The total 180 in philosophy with out any reason, or any statement, or anything is the reason people are upset. Real life items are fine, great, give people mountains of stuff. But they didnt have to put an item in game. Let other games that have not made a philosophical commitment to there players put in game items for real world cash, other games are not my concern and what they have done has no bearing on this at all. There is a difference between real world stuff and Runescape stuff. This is basically breaking the fourth wall between real life and Runescape life.

 

And do you really expect a jmod to come out against this, publicly on RSOF at least? They work to produce a wall of solidarity that is almost ludicrous sometimes.

I didn't. On Runescape official forums they are flooded with complaints and have only a handful supporters on their side.

The 'rewards' he speaks off include the item we are discussing, the whole thread on RS-forums is about this item btw...

 

The point why I posted my previous comment was to show where this comes from. Shamelessly copying the event of another MMO.

If we complain: "we are allowed to, it is our game and the others do the same"

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Oh, wait, my bad. The burning hat example was from the RWT days. Hah. Sorry about that. Hold on, lemme find the one I'm using for this instance.

 

....

 

....

 

Okay, got it.

 

[spoiler=Silly example]Years ago, a man has become notoriously famous for a crime organization that specializes in black market trade that he has set up in your country. Trade is conducted through manipulation of your country's most popular sport at the time. His activities become so deeply entrenched in the workings of your economy that people have regularly accepted his operations as "business as usual". But the other countries are furious at his presence within your country, and claim that you are harboring him on purpose. They will place an embargo on all trade with your country, effectively strangling the life out of it, unless you agree to get rid of that man. So you do a full shakedown and effectively remove his organization, ultimately shutting the sport down. People are furious at your decision, but the situation was so bad that delaying action would have been too late. Enacting a less harsh policy would have allowed him to wiggle through your fingers, and had been previously attempted to no avail. Despite the rioting, you take a bold stance on the issue in order to make a point of how serious the issue is. And you decide not to legalize and regulate the activities due to the fact that the right of fair market is important to all of your citizens. Or at least, you think it is. You have your doubts since they allowed such activities (to the extent of participating in them) to go on largely unnoticed to the degree that got your country in trouble in the first place.

 

You try to replace the sport with similar other activities that would be safe from outside manipulation, but it is to no avail. People are dead set on what they had before, no changes. You almost give up on putting it back altogether, wanting to sweep this ugly mess under the rug and move on. However, they will not let go of the issue. So, after years of struggle, you finally come up with a solution, that despite the fact that it will have a largely negative impact for years to come, is pretty much okay with the folks you were trying to appease.

 

After a while, you decide to throw a festival to celebrate what looks like a revival in your country's spirits. With the modified sport in place, somewhat restored acceptance of national policy, and perhaps overly optimistic enthusiasm at the prospect of being successful once more, you feel that it would be kinda awesome. People are disappointed when they find out that it is at an inconvenient time and an inconvenient place, not to mention that you are charging admission, but since you are new at this, the costs are a bit high, and you have no idea if it will be successful at all. You regret the inability for many of your citizens to attend, but know that it would be impossible to get everybody in, and accept this fact. However, as a blind gesture of good will, you decide to give all who are able to participate some souvenirs to commemorate the occasion.

 

By sheer coincidence, one of the souvenirs has a logo on it, that turned upside down and perhaps squinted at a bit, looks like the man you kicked out of your country years ago.

 

 

So, how to save face?

 

Now that you've gone and stepped in it....might as well go all the way. Just give the flags to everybody. They will regard them as useless, a stupid gesture to trick them, or perhaps just too little too late, but nobody will be able to say that you didn't try.

 

Perhaps being a bit more open with your plans would have made things smoother, but you are reluctant to share your ideas after your country has become very cynical since they lost their original most popular sport.

 

 

Aw... and in my insomnia induced craziness I had just hot glued candles to my head just for you.

 

But the analogy is both subtle and app, and I agree with it. They do need to do something about this. But not just to save face, but to save something more intangible, maybe goodwill, or philosophical coherence, or something (I’ll keep trying to figure out exactly what I want to express). But it is more than face, at least is seem so to me.

 

But I agree, they have put themselves in a very bad position with this.

 

And I would also say that being open with comunications will mollify the people who can be mollified, and the rest couldn’t have been mollified anyway, and so shouldn’t be allowed to dictate policy anyway. At some point you have to just ignore the people who can't see the forest for the trees.

 

edit to timmmmmm post: I would say to the jmod: just because you are allowed to doesn't make it a good idea. And there is always the everyone jumping off the cliff example that was the hallmark of my childhood. I know they can do whatever they want (though it give me unpleasant flashbacks of arguments with my mother). But they had given us some self-limiting princlples they had decided to live by, and I had thought I could trust those. Excuse my Naïveté of actually trusting what I'm told. I guess I will just have to find a new game if I don't want to have to see what real life money can gain you when I'm immersed in fantasy trying to escape all that.

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Actually, I believe it is more shameful to pretend that things can be done without copying somebody else on purpose or by accident. People have been comparing this to other game cons regardless of the flag or not.

 

And it IS their game.

 

And they ARE allowed to be dumb.

 

I would like to know the percentage of the population of RS that doesn't participate in the RSOF forums because it is a mess that cannot be salvaged, but continue to play the game, are okay with the flags, and do not care about the outcome enough either way to submit themselves to that kind of abuse in order to represent their point of view.

 

EDIT:

 

But why are we blaming them for being stupid? I believe that at one point, in order for them to have gained a silly notion such as this, they have probably asked actual users if they wanted it, and they said yes.

 

If we want to extend a gnarled tree branch of trust, I think we should set a good example and behave in a civil manner when we express our concerns about their actions, rather than submit every single action to overscrutiny and end up blowing the thing out of proportion to the point where speculation threads about popular television shows look like a basket of kittens to us.

 

But of course that will never happen. Because why should we be polite when they are not?

 

And why should they be polite if we are not?

 

Eh?

 

Do you see the pointlessness being engendered here by this line of reasoning?

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You want the flag so much? Go attend the event and get over it.

 

If you live on Hawaii?

If you are a poor kid with poor parents?

 

If you're a poor kid with poor parents, hopefully you would have learned by now what's important and what's not. If you haven't, well, then expect to remain poor. A virtual commemorative sign to indicate you've attended an event should not be a big deal to you if you're poor - what's for dinner is probably more important, and anyone in that situation probably realizes this.

 

Stop hiding behind the perceived misery of other people. Poor players are probably just fine because they live in a life where resources are scarce and they learn repeatedly how to prioritize their needs properly. They don't need a silly little flag in a computer game.

 

The flag isn't $120. The event is. The flag is given as a commemorative gift that no one will care about three months from now. Petty players who would pay $120 for the flag alone should really re-consider their lives. Besides, your real-life status has had far greater effects on your Runescape experience than this flag could ever hope to emulate.

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Seems like nowadays every post gets longer and longer....

 

The bottomline is, the whole thing could have been implemented in a better way, given the experience Jagex had with past events. They screwed it up, and naturally player with the capacity to know what went wrong voice their opinion (in a reasonable or cynical manner), and Jagex have taken note of this mistake.

Zepheras.png

 

"Do you really want to go back to the time when Falador was grey, lesser demon look like goats, dragons look like cows, hellhound look like cats and your character stands as stiff as a statue?"

 

-F1775

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Actually, I believe it is more shameful to pretend that things can be done without copying somebody else on purpose or by accident. People have been comparing this to other game cons regardless of the flag or not.

 

And it IS their game.

 

And they ARE allowed to be dumb.

 

I would like to know the percentage of the population of RS that doesn't participate in the RSOF forums because it is a mess that cannot be salvaged, but continue to play the game, are okay with the flags, and do not care about the outcome enough either way to submit themselves to that kind of abuse in order to represent their point of view.

 

EDIT:

 

But why are we blaming them for being stupid? I believe that at one point, in order for them to have gained a silly notion such as this, they have probably asked actual users if they wanted it, and they said yes.

 

If we want to extend a gnarled tree branch of trust, I think we should set a good example and behave in a civil manner when we express our concerns about their actions, rather than submit every single action to overscrutiny and end up blowing the thing out of proportion to the point where speculation threads about popular television shows look like a basket of kittens to us.

 

But of course that will never happen. Because why should we be polite when they are not?

 

And why should they be polite if we are not?

 

Eh?

 

Do you see the pointlessness being engendered here by this line of reasoning?

 

I have always held that if you fight fire with fire everyone just gets burned. This is my polite, well thought out responses. And I know they read these forum. I know they are lurking here somewhere. RSOF are a mess, some (maybe a lot) of the Runescape community is a mess. But they are tossing gasoline on the fire, and I just can't help saying "are you sure thats a good idea?" They are being obtuse. And there are plenty of times what everyone wants is not what is best for them or what is right. Jagex, I fear, in an atempt to be "closer to the people" has lost perspective. They see a lot of opinions but can't see the bigger picture.

 

And I've said my peace so unless something I specifically want to answer comes out, I'm not going to add any more to this deafening roar. I appriciate everyone who has taken the time to read my posts. Good luck Jagex. I'm not gone, but I can't say I'm happy. Atleast the game is still fun.

 

Edit (don't know why I thought I wouldn't think of somthing else): Beating a dead horse is pointless, but I still think this one has vital signs, so I'm going to continue to try to feed it warm gruel and water (isn't that what you do for sick horse?)

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Sorry Ravian. But you know my posts will always be long. That's how I roll.

 

I think we need a place for reasonable feedback, in which instead of a series of Qs & As are being handed out like bits of candy, an actual discussion in which people are more interested in finding a solution rather than finding a problem. Where we know that a Jagex representative is there, who is well versed in company policy and tact, and on the other end the user representative is also able to handle themselves maturely while being able to process the varied concerns in a meaningful way that does not suppress criticism, yet represents all valid viewpoints.

 

These discussions need to occur before development starts on a concept (at this point I can say that keeping any update a surprise is quite possibly the most inefficient and fruitless endeavor) and right after anything important is announced.

 

Would this be way too much to ask?

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Seen this image posted here on the forums and I have to say:

This saddens me greatly..... :thumbdown:

 

My picture. :mrgreen::thumbup:

 

P.S. Dont know if its been said yet. The age limit to enter is 16. The age limit to be served alcohol at the pubs/bars is 18 and you need to show ID.

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Poor players are probably just fine because they live in a life where resources are scarce and they learn repeatedly how to prioritize their needs properly. They don't need a silly little flag in a computer game.

No, they don't. But you know what? Jagex didn't *need* to make it impossible for these people to get that flag either. They didn't *need* to put something so obviously stupidly thought out into the game at all.

 

You're using a form of argument that basically boils down to "life sucks, so it's okay if people make it suck more". Rather spurious.

 

This was supposed to be an event to *thank* customers, wasn't it?

 

The flag isn't $120. The event is.

Since the flag and the event must be purchased together and cannot be obtained in any other way, the flag and the event are collectively $120. Any attempt to separate them is silly game-playing.

Qeltar, aka Charles Kozierok

Webmaster, RuneScoop - Premium RuneScape Information for Expert Players -- Now Free!

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The item is called the 'flagstaff of festivities', it's a little ambiguous isn't it? I'm going to bet that any future events Jagex holds (that are in relation to this) will also be called 'flagstaff of festivities', with the only difference being the sign shown when you look at it.

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I'm not sure how they would modify it should somebody visit more than one convention though.

 

I kind of feel that we are past the whole "Jagex is stupid" point and we need to figure out a way to make sure that our words actually mean anything at all.

 

EDIT: My analogy wasn't very subtle. Kind of just slapping nametags on things.

 

Also of course there is something larger at stake here but at the moment I'd like to keep things small and plan to work up from there.

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Amazing... A small item with no value other then status can make even rational people go into "this is serious buisness, bro!" mode... Human nature... Human flaws.

 

Making a mountain out of a mole hill at its finest.

The challenge of a mistake is not to avoid it. The challenge of a mistake is dealing with the outcome.

 

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Proud of who I am and what I am.

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Poor players are probably just fine because they live in a life where resources are scarce and they learn repeatedly how to prioritize their needs properly. They don't need a silly little flag in a computer game.

No, they don't. But you know what? Jagex didn't *need* to make it impossible for these people to get that flag either. They didn't *need* to put something so obviously stupidly thought out into the game at all.

 

You're using a form of argument that basically boils down to "life sucks, so it's okay if people make it suck more". Rather spurious.

 

This was supposed to be an event to *thank* customers, wasn't it?

 

The flag isn't $120. The event is.

Since the flag and the event must be purchased together and cannot be obtained in any other way, the flag and the event are collectively $120. Any attempt to separate them is silly game-playing.

 

Not exactly because you are not purchasing the flag. I doubt anywhere in the legal mumbo jumbo does it say you are buying a flag. You are not guaranteed the flag, yet you are guaranteed the ticket, which makes them totally separate. I feel for anybody who does buy the ticket for the flag and would consider suggesting counselling for them, as it is such an insignificant thing which does not merit spending such money on for any sane person.

 

 

 

 

I would like to say that yes, Jagex have probably handled this badly with the codes being e-mailed and not account restricted, however, we have to remember this is the first event they have hosted. They are also not an events company, they are a gaming company, filled with people who are probably very much like me and you. Things do get overlooked and mistakes are sometimes made when a task of this scale is undertaken, and you can be sure things will change for next time. What i do not think is a bad idea however is the item itself as just like holiday items, those who go to the event can get a bonus. Simple as that.

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Amazing... A small item with no value other then status can make even rational people go into "this is serious buisness, bro!" mode... Human nature... Human flaws.

 

Making a mountain out of a mole hill at its finest.

 

Why do people keep trying to make value judgment on other peoples items! I cross stitch a bunch, and have a whole collection of cross stitching books. I'm sure you wouldn't care a flip about them, but I love them.

 

And the argument is not about staff, it's about the real world money being used to get in game items. It's about them saying one thing and doing another. It's about breaking the wall between real life and game life. The item itself is of no consequence.

 

And five dollars and you leisure time may not be serious business to you, but my money and my leisure time are limited, and as such, I try to get the most out of them I can.

 

And I agree with qeltar, the arguments saying it's not money for in game items are just playing semantic games

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Sorry Ravian. But you know my posts will always be long. That's how I roll.

 

I think we need a place for reasonable feedback, in which instead of a series of Qs & As are being handed out like bits of candy, an actual discussion in which people are more interested in finding a solution rather than finding a problem. Where we know that a Jagex representative is there, who is well versed in company policy and tact, and on the other end the user representative is also able to handle themselves maturely while being able to process the varied concerns in a meaningful way that does not suppress criticism, yet represents all valid viewpoints.

 

These discussions need to occur before development starts on a concept (at this point I can say that keeping any update a surprise is quite possibly the most inefficient and fruitless endeavor) and right after anything important is announced.

 

Would this be way too much to ask?

 

 

I did gave a reasonable feedback, by chance to Mod Mark H, when I saw him posting on the RSOF. Simply put, what I said (which I think most of the tip.iters agree) is that the idea of an in-game item as thanks to players who purchased (but may not attend the event) was unneceesary. However, if Jagex insists on giving out another similar item for the next Runefest for players who attend the item to identify themselves with, precautions should be taken such that only people at the event gets the item.

 

The rest of the debate here just seems to revolve around the same old topics, such as "we shouldn't see the flag as microtransaction/RWT", "the flag is purely cosmetic and hence should not bother anyone" and such. Purely stating how the community should respond does not change how people would naturally respond. Jagex should have by now recognised that the misunderstanding arose from their original 'goodwill', and it's hard to clear it by just stating their stand.

 

(Mod Mark was trying to respond to as many thread as possible in order to convince people that it's not RWT/microtransaction. Futile, I would say.)

Zepheras.png

 

"Do you really want to go back to the time when Falador was grey, lesser demon look like goats, dragons look like cows, hellhound look like cats and your character stands as stiff as a statue?"

 

-F1775

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