Chaotic Rapier vs Longsword

[Zaaps1]

I'm glad we're getting somewhere.

 

In stab mode the CLS is 14% more accurate than the rapier. So, lets use an accuracy modifier for the rapier of 1.0 and an accuracy modifier for the CLS of 1.14 in the stab mode

 

Here's the problem. By changing the accuracy modifier of the CLS to 1.14x and keeping the CR at 1.00x, you are assuming that 14 times out of 100, the CLS is going to hit while the CR is going to miss.

 

I hope you see the flaw here immediately, because I do. By doing so, you are assuming that the CLS will never miss on that given monster. In addition, you are assuming that WHENEVER the CR misses, the CLS will hit.

 

In addition, you are assuming that each point of accuracy is worth the same. Reasonable assumption, but you don't know that for sure.

 

That's why debates like this are so tricky to do theoretically. No one, other than Jagex, knows exactly how the attack/accuracy system works. It could be that every attack point makes you equally more accurate, like strength. I doubt that's the case however. Unlike strength, attack is capped. Technically speaking, strength can go on infinitely, since you can keep hitting higher and higher (HP limits ignored). For attack, however, it's different. You can never get more than 100% accurate, no matter how high you stack your attack bonus (assuming your target's defense is kept static).

 

If you don't know already, prayer bonus works on a scaled system. The first few points make a huge impact, but around +20/+30, each point is worth less and less. This means there is some sort of "critical point" when each point begins to make less difference.

 

It is possible this is how it works for attack. You reach a "critical point", based on your bonuses, levels, and targets bonuses and levels. After that point, each bonus matters less and less.

 

Again, NO ONE knows how the system truly works. So eventually, all discussions like this end up to a generalization or assumption that goes something like: "But that's assuming you never miss, since you will miss, it gets tilted in the favor of _____"

[Renshae]

K tell me a place where you are only attacked to wield a melee weapon, where you can't use potions, prayer, fury, barrows gloves, ardy cape, dragon boots, defender. Oh I don't think such a place exists.

Btw if you think accuracy is directly proportional to equipment bonus, you really are quite ignorant.

You are throwing in many variables that are not necessary.

 

The only thing we need to compare are the cls and rapier. All other variables being equal, they can be discounted or ignored.

 

As I proposed earlier, If you had two individuals with max melee stats in the duel arena with no gear, no prayer, no food, and no potions you would be able to get an honest comparison of the CLS and the rapier.

 

Of course, there may still be doubters, and at this point my hypothesis and mathematics are simply that, theory and hypothesis. They should be tested in the duel arena as I have just suggested.

[Nibbles]

I personally chose a CLS over the Rapier despite agreeing with most that the Rapier is in fact better.

 

The reasons I got the CLS were;

 

I'd over use the Rapier, every combat situation would degrade the rapier rather fast. Though 2m to most isn't a lot, but when your paying it once a week, it seems silly - when a whip isn't THAT much worse.

 

The CLS looks infinitely better.

 

I prefer warring in CWA to monster hunting - in which the CLS probably prevails over the Rapier as most warrers are maxed gear, maxed stats. The added accuracy really helps.

 

I also TD far more than any other boss - where the CLS also prevails - and is more suited to my switching ability.

[Hajutze]

A honest and totally USLESS comparison. Your accuracy is not calculated only by the weapon's attack bonus.

[Renshae]

I'm glad we're getting somewhere.

 

In stab mode the CLS is 14% more accurate than the rapier. So, lets use an accuracy modifier for the rapier of 1.0 and an accuracy modifier for the CLS of 1.14 in the stab mode

 

Here's the problem. By changing the accuracy modifier of the CLS to 1.14x and keeping the CR at 1.00x, you are assuming that 14 times out of 100, the CLS is going to hit while the CR is going to miss.

 

I hope you see the flaw here immediately, because I do. By doing so, you are assuming that the CLS will never miss on that given monster. In addition, you are assuming that WHENEVER the CR misses, the CLS will hit.

 

In addition, you are assuming that each point of accuracy is worth the same. Reasonable assumption, but you don't know that for sure.

 

That's why debates like this are so tricky to do theoretically. No one, other than Jagex, knows exactly how the attack/accuracy system works. It could be that every attack point makes you equally more accurate, like strength. I doubt that's the case however. Unlike strength, attack is capped. Technically speaking, strength can go on infinitely, since you can keep hitting higher and higher (HP limits ignored). For attack, however, it's different. You can never get more than 100% accurate, no matter how high you stack your attack bonus (assuming your target's defense is kept static).

 

If you don't know already, prayer bonus works on a scaled system. The first few points make a huge impact, but around +20/+30, each point is worth less and less. This means there is some sort of "critical point" when each point begins to make less difference.

 

It is possible this is how it works for attack. You reach a "critical point", based on your bonuses, levels, and targets bonuses and levels. After that point, each bonus matters less and less.

 

Again, NO ONE knows how the system truly works. So eventually, all discussions like this end up to a generalization or assumption that goes something like: "But that's assuming you never miss, since you will miss, it gets tilted in the favor of _____"

Actually, I considered that and the numbers above were for comparison on an efficiency percentage basis. The proper way to figure it if the CLS is 14% more accurate than the rapier would be that for every 114 times the cls hits the rapier will miss 14 times. it is still 14% and will still result with the same efficiency ratio.

 

Granted, we do not know for fact that each point of accuracy is worth the same and as I have suggested this hypothesis would need to be tested in multiple controlled trials. I would be very interested to see the results. My own presupposition based upon my personal experiences in Kuradal dungeon is that the hypothesis is correct.

 

However, I may be completely wrong. Only controlled trials would tell short of Jagex answering the question of accuracy which I am doubtful they would do.

[ghjkl]

Btw using your extremely twisted, failed, and unable to be understood logic:

Speed:

Cmaul hits 1 every 3.6 seconds, long hits every 3 seconds, maul is 5/6 as slow as longsword.

Maul will hit 16 and 2/3 hits a minute, long will hit 20.

 

Maul maxes at 381 using your logic, you said cls hits 321.

Mauls potential is 6350 in a minute, long's dpm is 6420 in a minute

As you can see, maul is already almost as good as longsword even without accuracy.

 

Lets assume that the monster has equal slash vs crush

 

Maul's accuracy is 167, long is 124.

Maul is 34.5% more accurate than long (according to your own twisted logic)

 

Lets give maul a accuracy bonus of 1.345 and long an accuracy bonus of 1.

 

6350*1.345=8550

6420*1=6420

 

So maul's potential damage is 8550, long's is 6420. (Btw idk how you come up with the idea that with accuracy a weapon can hit OVER its actual max hit. Accuracy is suppose to hurt weapons not help them deal more damage, but I'm following your rules).

 

8550/6420= 1.33

MAUL IS 33% BETTER THAN LONGSWORD YOU JUST WASTED 200K TOKENS.

HAVE FUN LOSING THANKS TO YOUR OWN RULES.

EVERYONE ELSE IN THIS THREAD YOU CAN THANK ME BY DONATING MONEY TO MY PAYPAL FOR GETTING RID OF THIS TROLL.

[Aiel]

using this DPS calc, you can calculate that the rapier has slightly higher dps (4.1 lp) in maxed gear, with overloads and turmoil, against monsters with a defense level of 100,000. A CLS is only better against a monster that is drastically strong against stab. /thread

[Renshae]

Btw using your extremely twisted, failed, and unable to be understood logic:

Speed:

Cmaul hits 1 every 3.6 seconds, long hits every 3 seconds, maul is 5/6 as slow as longsword.

Maul will hit 16 and 2/3 hits a minute, long will hit 20.

 

Maul maxes at 381 using your logic, you said cls hits 321.

Mauls potential is 6350 in a minute, long's dpm is 6420 in a minute

As you can see, maul is already almost as good as longsword even without accuracy.

 

Lets assume that the monster has equal slash vs crush

 

Maul's accuracy is 167, long is 124.

Maul is 34.5% more accurate than long (according to your own twisted logic)

 

Lets give maul a accuracy bonus of 1.345 and long an accuracy bonus of 1.

 

6350*1.345=8550

6420*1=6420

 

So maul's potential damage is 8550, long's is 6420. (Btw idk how you come up with the idea that with accuracy a weapon can hit OVER its actual max hit. Accuracy is suppose to hurt weapons not help them deal more damage, but I'm following your rules).

 

8550/6420= 1.33

MAUL IS 33% BETTER THAN LONGSWORD YOU JUST WASTED 200K TOKENS.

HAVE FUN LOSING THANKS TO YOUR OWN RULES.

EVERYONE ELSE IN THIS THREAD YOU CAN THANK ME BY DONATING MONEY TO MY PAYPAL FOR GETTING RID OF THIS TROLL.

If that method confuses you, then on stab mode use a modifier for the cls of 1.0 and a modifer on the rapier of .86. It will still result with the CLS being 1.65% more efficient.

 

Likewise, on the slash mode use a modifer on the cls of 1.0 and a modifer on the rapier of .41. Again it will still result with the CLS being around 41-42% more efficient than the rapier.

 

I'm sorry, but I really have neither the time nor the inclination to instruct you all on the scientific method and statistics.

[Renshae]

using this DPS calc, you can calculate that the rapier has slightly higher dps (4.1 lp) in maxed gear, with overloads and turmoil, against monsters with a defense level of 100,000. A CLS is only better against a monster that is drastically strong against stab. /thread

What calulation? You have offered no calc but rather have regurgitated someone else's hypothesis.

[ghjkl]

I have used your exact methods to compare maul vs the longsword.

I have determined in using your methods that cls is a waste of tokens, and in fact, the maul is the superior weapon out of the 3.

[Aiel]

using this DPS calc, you can calculate that the rapier has slightly higher dps (4.1 lp) in maxed gear, with overloads and turmoil, against monsters with a defense level of 100,000. A CLS is only better against a monster that is drastically strong against stab. /thread

What calulation? You have offered no calc but rather have regurgitated someone else's hypothesis.

I imputed the numbers, using the input calc that's there, I believe its open source you can look at his calculations if you want to. Also, by that same logic I could refute your use of runehq's max hit calc.

[Renshae]

using this DPS calc, you can calculate that the rapier has slightly higher dps (4.1 lp) in maxed gear, with overloads and turmoil, against monsters with a defense level of 100,000. A CLS is only better against a monster that is drastically strong against stab. /thread

What calulation? You have offered no calc but rather have regurgitated someone else's hypothesis.

I imputed the numbers, using the input calc that's there, I believe its open source you can look at his calculations if you want to. Also, by that same logic I could refute your use of runehq's max hit calc.

Using Grimy's own numbers, or yours as they may be, they are flawed. Grimy assumes 550 max hit on rapier. 550 x 25 hits/min x 60 mins = 825000 possible damage per hour not 1,171. If max damage on one hit is 550 then 1,171 in one hour means that the rapier only hits 2.13 times in an hour.

 

Furthermore, you have entered the attack values of the rapier on stab and the cls on slash as being equal. They are not. The Cls has 30+ more attk than the rapier.

 

You have also entered the strength values of the rapier and the cls as being equal. AGain, they are not equal. The CLS has 19+ more str bonus than the rapier.

 

 

 

You really should test the mathematics and hypothesis of other people's work rather than just quoting them as gospel because it happens to support your position.

 

Conversly, you should not enter invalid data just to support your own positon.

 

The actual data that should have been used is as follows:

 

RAP stab attk = 94; str = 101

Rap slash attk = 78; str = 101

 

CLS stab attk = 107; str = 120

CLS slash attk = 124; str = 120

 

If you enter the CORRECT data you come up with dps values that support my hypothesis as well as my personal experience and observations.

[Aiel]

using this DPS calc, you can calculate that the rapier has slightly higher dps (4.1 lp) in maxed gear, with overloads and turmoil, against monsters with a defense level of 100,000. A CLS is only better against a monster that is drastically strong against stab. /thread

What calulation? You have offered no calc but rather have regurgitated someone else's hypothesis.

I imputed the numbers, using the input calc that's there, I believe its open source you can look at his calculations if you want to. Also, by that same logic I could refute your use of runehq's max hit calc.

Using Grimy's own numbers they are flawed. Grimy assumes 550 max hit on rapier. 550 x 25 hits/min x 60 mins = 825000 possible damage per hour not 1,171. If max damage on one hit is 550 then 1,171 in one hour means that the rapier only hits 2.13 times in an hour.

 

You really should test the mathematics and hypothesis of other people's work rather than just quoting them as gospel because it happens to support your position.

DPS is not damage per hour sir. And you're misreading it.

skimmed your post my bad. And vs 100,000 defense you would only be hitting ~twice per hour.

[ghjkl]

Idk why we are arguing this, according to renshae, cmaul is the best weapon, so CLS sucks.

[Aiel]

Idk why we are arguing this, according to renshae, cmaul is the best weapon, so CLS sucks.

because there's no visable difference in speed between rapier and maul.

[AnneFrank]

Wow thread is long done.

Just get all 3 weapons

[Obtaurian]

Another issue (which I think Squareroot already mentioned, but I'll reiterate) is that you can't just strip two players down to the weapons to determine which is better. Firstly, there are no situations in Runescape where that'd even be the case. Second, boosts such as strength and accuracy from gear, prayers, and potions all favor the rapier due to its speed. The rapier can hit nearly as high and almost always as accurately as the CLS, but FASTER. This is why the CLS can only outperform the CR on monsters that have incredibly high defense (Graardor and Zil, though Graar is only slightly weaker to the CLS), and in those situations, the maul outperforms the CLS due to the much higher strength and accuracy.

[ghjkl]

No its obvious that those additions are not needed, because it makes the rapier look better than the longsword, and the troll does not want that to happen.

[Renshae]

Idk why we are arguing this, according to renshae, cmaul is the best weapon, so CLS sucks.

I haven't figured any statistics for cmaul. Please do not attribute things to me that I have not stated.

 

However, if any one knows how many seconds between cmaul hits I could figure it.

[ghjkl]

Cmaul hits every 3.6 seconds.

I have already done the calculations for you on the previous page.

I have come up with the conclusion that cmaul is 33% better than long.

So long is a waste of tokens.

GG

[Renshae]

No its obvious that those additions are not needed, because it makes the rapier look better than the longsword, and the troll does not want that to happen.

He used values for strength and attack on the rapier being equal which they are not.

 

Of course if you figure two weapons having equal attack and equal strength bonuses but one hits faster you will come out with the faster one being better.

 

However, that is not the case. One is faster but has lower attack and strength bonuses. The result being that, although it hits faster it still does less damage per hour.

 

Your refusal to use correct data would seem to indicate that you have no interest is uncovering the truth, but rather would pursue a flawed line of logic to reinforce your flawed presupposition that the rapier is superior. Either that or you yourself are simply trolling.

[ghjkl]

I am sorry, it seems that you are just angry that you wasted your 200k tokens on a longsword when a maul is obviously better.

[anim7]

No its obvious that those additions are not needed, because it makes the rapier look better than the longsword, and the troll does not want that to happen.

He used values for strength and attack on the rapier being equal which they are not.

 

Of course if you figure two weapons having equal attack and equal strength bonuses but one hits faster you will come out with the faster one being better.

 

However, that is not the case. One is faster but has lower attack and strength bonuses. The result being that, although it hits faster it still does less damage per hour.

 

Your refusal to use correct data would seem to indicate that you have no interest is uncovering the truth, but rather would pursue a flawed line of logic to reinforce your flawed presupposition that the rapier is superior. Either that or you yourself are simply trolling.

 

 

How so? Can you show us some figures?

[Squisher_33]

if you are attacking the zarfot on crush with a crapier however your accuracy will be 9001%. I too can pull numbers out of my [wagon].

 

this post made my day

 

exactly name 1 scenario where u 1 item with just a weapon and use no pots or prayer

 

if maxed armor can add say, 50 str and 40 attack ur comparison gets warped in rapiers favor by quite a bit

 

comparing 101 and 120 gives u a ratio of 19% more, however comparing 151 and 170 gives u a ratio of only about 14%, thats not totaly accurate but u get the idea

 

same goes for attack

 

then further add pots and prayer to boost accuracy more and it realy just comes down to rapiers raw dps that wins

 

 

btw aeli, although your post is true you have 1 flaw, if your wielding the drumgun godsword and spec with it, then zarfots defense will become -9001 so therefore the flame from 9001 trolls will penitrate his defense and defeat him causing him to rage quit and log out of the runescape for the first time in 8 years

[Renshae]

If cmaul hits every 3.6 seconds then rapier is 50% faster.

 

Cmaul hits 16.66 times an hour.

 

Using the Rune HQ max hit calc with a str bonus of 155 on the cmaul, its max hit is 388 with out any other modifiers.

 

It's accuracy on crush is an attack bonus of 167. which is 1.78 times that of the rapier.

 

16.66 hits per hour x max hit of 388 = 6464 possible max damage per hour.

 

Multiplying 6464 possible max damage per hour by an attack modifier of 1.78 = 11505.92 max possible damage per hour

 

11505/7200 = almost 60% more damage efficient that the rapier.

 

However, the cmaul damage is crush damage. We are really not comparing slash to slash and stab to stab as we can do with the CLS and the rapier. Also, one would have to take into consideration that there many more monsters that are weak to slash and stab attacks than are weak to crush attacks.

 

In summation, since we are comparing crush to slash and stab it is really not a valid comparison.