Chaotic Rapier vs Longsword

[Obtaurian]

Bravo, Zaaps. =D>

[Troacctid]

[Winnage]

Best. Troll-dismantling. Ever. :thumbup:

[Quyneax]

[Winnage]

Best. Troll-dismantling. Ever. :thumbup:

I'll see if I can siggy that :thumbsup:. Aww, too long.

[bedman]

Hehe, he claims there is no empirical data on the speed of rapier and longsword. Heard of youtube? Or Knowledge base and 0.6 sec game ticks?

[Trollface]

-Mind blown-

[Naraku893]

Hehe, he claims there is no empirical data on the speed of rapier and longsword. Heard of youtube? Or Knowledge base and 0.6 sec game ticks?

 

 

^

[Michael]

[Winnage]

Best. Troll-BAITING. Ever. :thumbup:

[superson]

[Winnage]

Best. Troll-dismantling. Ever. :thumbup:

 

It's actually called 'being troll bait'.

 

No offense to you Zaaps but you wasted a lot of time on someone who is only trying to get a rise out of you. Which I assume they did.

[AndJusticeForOne]

Can we get a medal for Sir Zaaps here? This man deserves a freakin' medal. :thumbup:

[Obtaurian]

[Winnage]

Best. Troll-dismantling. Ever. :thumbup:

 

It's actually called 'being troll bait'.

 

No offense to you Zaaps but you wasted a lot of time on someone who is only trying to get a rise out of you. Which I assume they did.

 

I sincerely thought that Renshae was trolling at first, but after he/she offered his/her stats and BH rank as evidence of whatever it is he/she was trying to prove, I thought otherwise.

 

Yeah, Renshae could be an extremely intelligent troll, but I highly doubt it based on their responses so far.

[AnneFrank]

Renshae you conviced me to get CLS now!

[superson]

[Winnage]

Best. Troll-dismantling. Ever. :thumbup:

 

It's actually called 'being troll bait'.

 

No offense to you Zaaps but you wasted a lot of time on someone who is only trying to get a rise out of you. Which I assume they did.

 

I sincerely thought that Renshae was trolling at first, but after he/she offered his/her stats and BH rank as evidence of whatever it is he/she was trying to prove, I thought otherwise.

 

Yeah, Renshae could be an extremely intelligent troll, but I highly doubt it based on their responses so far.

 

And the fact that all their posts are on this thread and they registered yesterday?

 

Based on Renshae's posts that I've read, I wouldn't call them an extremely intelligent anything.

[xpx]

Renshae you conviced me to get CLS now!

eerm...why wouldn't you get maul then? it hits 900 instead of 500 from cls on crafting potions and it really owns for slayer- i usually kill 3 monsters in the same time someone with a rapier kills half a monster(no, they aren't the same monsters, but that's beside the point), and also, since weapon speed can never be determined because of the phenomena of time not having been invented yet, the maul hits around the same speed as the longsword, there is no noticeable difference in the speed of those weapons, and if you want to prove me wrong, please get 100m strength xp on chickens and then count all the feathers you get, take a squareroot and divide with my awesome bh rank, which obviously shows that i'm an awesome pker, even though 10k people are better than me. If the number that you get is bigger than your age cubed, i've just proved you wrong.

 

/troll

[Ezz]

I'm willing to bet that Renshae trolled us all :(

 

But nice post anyways Zaaps :thumbup:

[Dexek]

I enjoyed that Zaaps. :lol:

[Jehosaphat]

I must say, the trolling and counter-trolling on this thread is excellent. Might I suggest we throw in a pinch more flaming to add some more life to the mix?

 

[/troll]

 

Anyways, I'm slowly moving my way up towards one of the Chaotic weapons. I bosshunt just about as much as I slay/train; which of the 3 should I get?

[la la la]

Rapier.

[Naraku893]

I must say, the trolling and counter-trolling on this thread is excellent. Might I suggest we throw in a pinch more flaming to add some more life to the mix?

 

[/troll]

 

Anyways, I'm slowly moving my way up towards one of the Chaotic weapons. I bosshunt just about as much as I slay/train; which of the 3 should I get?

 

 

rapier or maul

 

cls is a waste

 

id get rapier

[Matt_Marche]

Just got my chaotic maul. I can vouch for the fact that Cr + Cm > Cls everywhere :P

[Naraku893]

Just got my chaotic maul. I can vouch for the fact that Cr + Cm > Cls everywhere :P

 

 

unfortunately some people dont realize that

[PereGrin]

Awesome super long post

 

[hide]

tl;dr warning. Long post ahead.

 

All emotion aside, someone needs to do a CLS vs Rapier comparison, in Duel areana. You need to do multiple scenarios and keep things like prayer, style, equpment, potions etc controlled and equal.

 

[bunch of recommended tests]

 

You would also have to do multiple runs on the same scenarios to overcome "good luck" on the random generators.

 

Any "opinions" not based upon controlled scientific trials are just that, opinions subject to the individual's personal biases, presuppositons etc...

 

Show me a vid of at least 10 trials each of the above scenarios where the rapier powns the cls at least 60% of the time and I just might get me a rapier next time.

 

Wait, so let me get this straight. We need to do multiple experiment, multiple tedious experiments to get the facts? So we can't just take casual experience and use that to support our point? Thank god you didn't do that, otherwise what you've been saying would be controversial.

 

I have a cls and I live slayer. I have NEVER been out killed by a rapier. Usually I make 2 kills with my cls vs 1 kill with a rapier by my peers. From personal experience and lots and lots of slaying, rapier hits 500's-600's while CLS hits 600's-700's and that is on supers NOT extremes.

 

Wait, but isn't that NOT an extensive test like you recommended? Maybe you didn't draw a solid conclusion from that though. You're smart. I know you wouldn't just take some casual observations, draw a quick conclusion, and treat it as a fact :)

 

I'm sorry that you all wasted your 200k points on a rapier but the fact of the matter is:

 

CLS>rap>whip

 

:mellow:

 

 

Have you ever heard of the "scientific method?"

[some copy/paste explanation of what it is]

 

Right right, so let's really put our opinions aside and use pure science and raw experiments. This way, we can get a clear cut picture of how this is. Tell us then, oracle, how SHOULD we go about doing this?

 

See, unlike most of the people on here I dont just take the speculations and theories of others as fact.

 

So you are an omniscient player who takes nothing into account except facts you know to be true because you have no only tested them, but recorded them and retested them repeatedly. Science is made for people like that. You're right. We can't rely on anything other than facts. Hearsay is too often inaccurate and we cannot trust it. It's best to leave it out of the situation completely and not mention it, because it leads to wrong conclusions, yes?

 

I've never seen a rapier hit over 700. Although, I have heard that on extremes rap can hit 800 I have never seen it.

 

But isn't that a rumor what you are using? Well, perhaps I'm not being fair. After all, you probably tested the Chaotic Rapier yourself, right? You did say:

 

I have to test and try speculations and theories to verify that they are true and everything that I have stated in my post is based upon observations and fact not my frustrations and feelings of inadequacy over the fact that I chose a rapier instead of a cls.

 

So therefore you would NEVER say anything about the Rapier that you didn't test yourself.

 

Wait, but...you don't have a Rapier...

 

http://services.runescape.com/m=hiscore/hiscorepersonal.ws

 

You don't have 4m Dungeoneering Experience yet, so wouldn't that mean you only have one Chaotic weapon? Wouldn't that mean, one way or the other, you are saying something that you didn't test? Or maybe there is some strange method to test this that I don't know about. Maybe...

 

Anyone considering a rapier should try out primal rapier in dungeoneering. I have. I have used both a cls and a primal rapier. CLS owns rapier.

 

Thank GOD YOU TESTED IT!!!! You tested a CHAOTIC LONGSWORD against a PRIMAL RAPIER??? And which, sir, was better? The Longsword, of course, right? Good!! Since CLS > Primal Rapier, the CHAOTIC Rapier MUST be worse!

 

And you personally tested that? How sweet! And it was a controlled test and everything just like you said? Everything was the same? Same equipment? Same monsters? Same prayers? Same potion boosts? Same attack style? Same day of week? Same weather outside?

 

you would have to control such variables as attack style...Have you ever heard of "scientific method???"

 

"Variables such as attack style". I hope that includes the list I mentioned above, because if it didn't, wouldn't your "facts" be wrong?

 

But...wait. You DID compare it to the Chaotic Rapier, didn't you?

 

I have NEVER been out killed by a rapier. Usually I make 2 kills with my cls vs 1 kill with a rapier by my peers. From personal experience and lots and lots of slaying

 

Yes! So you DID compare it to the Rapier. You saw how your CLS performed, then you saw how your peers' CRs performed, thus it's a fantastic piece of evidence! It's controlled and everythin...wait. "Peers"? PEERS?

 

Good thing you were able to control your peers' playing styles, right? When you compared your performances, you were able to make sure they had the same gear, same potions, same levels, same boots, same ping, same hunger, same attention, same RL fatigue, same computer, same carpet, same lighting, same brand of coffee, and everything?

 

No...I don't think you can base what you're saying off your "OBSERVATIONS" from how you performed against your "PEERS", as you have absolutely no control over how they slay.

 

But everyone knows we have math to rely on. Math is a universal language. MATH SHALL NOT FAIL US!

 

Do the math...CLS is 20+ better attack, 30+ better strength, and they both hit about the same speed. The result is that you will hit around 100 LP more per hit with the CLS.

 

YES!! WE HAVE MATH!! WE HAVE NUMBERS! THIS MUST BE TRUE!

 

[hide=Quote of Lep]

Or you could simply say that the C Rapier is 4/5 the speed of the CLS. Therefore, if you multiply the stats of the C Rapier by 5/4, you will get a weapon with the same DPS as the C Rapier, but at longsword speed. Then it is very easy to compare the 2.

 

C Rapier = +94 Stab, +78 Slash, +101 Strength

 

CLS = +107 Stab, +124 Slash, +120 Strength

 

(C Rapier) x (5/4) = +117.5 Stab, +97.5 Slash, +126.25 Strength

 

Basically, the winners are:

 

Stab: C Rapier (+9.8% over CLS)

 

Slash: CLS (+21.4% over C Rapier)

 

Strength: C Rapier (5.2% over CLS)

 

 

I only compared the weapons directly, as the OP did. Adding in Bandos, fury, barrows gloves, dragon boots, neitz, and rune defender changes things slightly.

 

(C Rapier) x (5/4) = +170 Stab, +148.75 Slash, +173.75 Strength

 

CLS = +149 Stab, +165 Slash, +158 Strength

 

The winners are as follows:

 

Stab: C Rapier (14% over CLS)

 

Slash: CLS (10.9% over C Rapier)

 

Strength: C Rapier (10% over CLS)[/hide]

 

YES!! MORE MATH!! MORE NUMBERS!

 

Wait...these don't support the conclusion you drew. But...but...math doesn't...lie. How is that possible? How can we draw two different conclusions from the same numbers and the same debate? How can one math proof that's two sentences long with crude information EVER draw a different conclusion from a lengthy proof that takes far more conditions and much more data into account?

 

What are you really saying?

 

I have acknowledged that the rapier is a little faster than the cls. However, I have postulated that the increase in speed is not sufficient to overcome the higher strength and attack bonuses of the cls.

 

So this is good. You acknowledge that there is at least some grounds for debate. By admitting that the CR IS noticeably quicker than the CLS, you admit that you CAN argue that the speed makes up for it. You use this basis to propose the true question.

 

The above controlled trials would answer that question. "Does the Chaotic Rapier's speed make up for it's deficiencies in attack and strength in comparison to the Chaotic Longsword, enough that it can inflict more damage per unit of time than the Chaotic Longsword?"

 

That being the question. Therefore, you admit that the CR is faster, and that since it is faster PERHAPS it is better during many situations, it just requires more testing to confirm or disprove this assumption. And these tests have to be lengthy, yes? Not just a few observations of you at bandos and when you managed to outslay a few other people are Dust Devils? And they have to be controlled tests, yes? Not against any random guy you see with a CR at the same training place? Not a test with a totally unrelated circumstance in Daemonhiem?

 

Whew, I'm glad we were able to establish a common ground so we can understand each other. And only then we can determine whether the Rapier's faster speed makes it better?

 

There is no noticiable difference in speed between the two

 

Oh...thank god you cover yourself later on with this amendment, which I bet nobody saw.

 

i'm not saying that rapier is not faster than CLS. I'm saying it is not much faster. It's kinda like the difference between dlong and dscim. It is not as fast as ddarts as someone else posted here earlier. However, dds is faster than a whip. Would you rather have a dds (disregarding the spec) or a whip? Of course not, although dds is faster it does not hit nearly as high as a whip

 

First of all, that's a bad example because:

 

daggers, whips and the CR are all the same speed.

 

In addition, whip is roughly DOUBLE in accuracy AND strength vs. the DDS. But of course, this is Sparta TIF and we make good analogies here. The CLS has double the accuracy and strength of the CR, surely, otherwise we wouldn't make such a fallible analogy.

 

But, you know, logically (in RL terms) that doesn't make sense. So I'd understand if you did think that daggers were a little faster than the whip to make the comparison. Fair enough. But back to the main point. We want to know whether the CR's speed makes up for the CLS's power. Therefore, we must determine how much faster the CR is over the CLS and whether this is significant. Therefore, we know just how fast each is, right?

 

nobody knows the speeds of these weapons

 

There has been no empirical data submitted on the speed of the two weapons

 

I give up.

 

Isn't there some sort of easy way we can determine who lost this argument?

 

You know you are winning an argument when your opponent has run out of counter arguments and resorts to name calling and threats of violence.

 

Is that how we know who is winning?

 

"you are extremely delusional"

 

"I'm guessing a lot of you are the same type of people that also swear that there is no such thing as Primal Chain eventhough I've had one have know 5 other people that have had one."

 

"Are you illiterate or jsut have a learning disability?"

 

"dee dee deeeee"

 

Right, sorry if I seem harsh. But I hope I've exposed the fact that you are being rather hypocritical, have no solid evidence whatsoever, and expect us to believe your point of view when you can neither argue for yours nor against ours.

[/hide]

 

Just one thing, the math you put in there, I originally posted that on the Thread. You can find the direct comparison between the rapier and longsword on the RSOF. Someone by the name of Warlock posted it. I did the math that included the extra bonuses you get from other gear. Page one and 2 is where you will find my posts.

 

But anyways, awesome post, just awesome :D

[Cassynder]

So anyone with a CLS care to test it in the duel arena against my rapier? I'm curious to know which is truly better.

[Renshae]

ok, I apologize for my ignorance on the hit speeds of the rapier and the cls. We should have enough data to actually come to some intelligent theories.

 

 

Speed:

 

It has been posted that the rapier hits every 2.4 seconds. that would mean that it hits 60/2.4 = 25 hits per minute

 

It has also been posted that the CLS hits every 3 seconds. that would bean that it hits 20 hits per minute.

Now, max hit:

 

Lets use the Rune HQ hax hit calc. for someone with 99 strength and lets figure aggressive attack with no other modifiers such as other equipment, prayers or potions.

 

If we enter 101 str bonus for the Rapier we come up with a max hit of 288.59.

 

Entering a 120 str bonus for the CLS we come up with a max hit of 321.25.

 

Thus far we know that the rapier is 25% faster than the CLS. (25 hits/min divided by 20 hits/min = 1.25)

 

We also know that the CLS hits 11.5% higher than the Rapier. (321 max hit divided by 288 max hit = 1.11458)

Now then to address the issue of accuracy:

 

For the rapier the attack bonus on stab is +94 and the the attk bonus for slaxsh is 78.

 

For the CLS the attack bonus on stab is 107 and the attk bonus for slash is 124.

 

This means that on stab the CLS is 14% more accurate. (107/94 =1.14)

 

On Slash the CLS is 59% more accurate than the rapier. (124/78 = 1.59)

 

Now then the task at hand is to figure damage per minute excluding all other gear, prayers and potions.

 

The rapier will hit 25 times in one minute with a maximum hit of 288. Therefore, in one minute the rapier could potentially hit a maximum amount of damage equaling 7200. (25 X 288 = 7200)

 

The CLS will hit 20 times in one minute with a maximum hit of 321. There fore, in one minute the CLS could potentially hit a maximum amout of damage equaling 6420.

 

So far looks like the rapier wins.

 

However, we have yet to figure in accuracy and attack styles for the two weapons.

 

In stab mode the CLS is 14% more accurate than the rapier. So, lets use an accuracy modifier for the rapier of 1.0 and an accuracy modifier for the CLS of 1.14 in the stab mode. (94/94 =1.0 ; 107/94 = 1.14)

 

So, in stab mode the rapier can hit a maximum of 7200 x an accuracy modifer of 1.0 = potential damage of 7200/min

 

In stab mode the CLS can hit a maximum of 6420 x an accuracy modifer of 1.14 = potential damage of 7319/min

 

From this method we can conclude that in stab mode the CLS is slightly better than the rapier. 1.65% to be precise (7319/7200 = 1.0165)

 

Now lets compare the two in slash mode:

 

In slash mode the CLS is 59% more accurate than the rapier. So, lets use an accuracy modifer for the rapier of 1.0 and an accuracy modifer for the CLS of 1.59 in slash mode. (78/78 = 1.0 ; 124/78 = 1.59)

 

Therefore, in slash mode the rapier can hit a maximum of 7200 x an accuracy modifer of 1.0 = potential damage of 7200/min.

 

In slash mode the cls can hit a maximum of 6420 x an accuracy modifer of 1.59 = potential damage of 10,208/min.

 

From this same method we can conclude that in slash mode the CLS is far superior to the rapier. 42% more effective to be precise. (10,208/7200 = 1.41775)

 

So, in summation:

 

In stab mode the CLS is slightly better than the rapier.

 

In slash mode the CLS is a far superior weapon to the rapier.

[ghjkl]

K tell me a place where you are only attacked to wield a melee weapon, where you can't use potions, prayer, fury, barrows gloves, ardy cape, dragon boots, defender. Oh I don't think such a place exists.

Btw if you think accuracy is directly proportional to equipment bonus, you really are quite ignorant.

[Aiel]

if you are attacking the zarfot on crush with a crapier however your accuracy will be 9001%. I too can pull numbers out of my [wagon].