Chaotic Rapier vs Longsword

[Renshae]

No, but they only remove damage if the hit would've done >200 LP.

Ewww.....I was going to get one next....not so sure now.

[Squisher_33]

do they tell u how much gets reduced?

 

and is the ammount always 20%?

 

i dont see the 200+ as a problem, since a 199 or less isnt a hit to worry about, yet for say, a 300 to be reduced to a 240 would be nice

[Renshae]

I'm working on accuracy stats for cls. So far, at 102/109 hits the accuracy in the first trial was 93.6%.

 

In the second trial 201/213 hits the accuracy was 93.4%.

 

I'll continue doing larger trials, but 93.4% - 93.6% is pretty consistent.

 

These results were on supers and the following gear:

 

 

My task was jungle strykworms.

 

note that I am on supers not extremes and am using a str ammy not a fury.

 

We could assume that on extremes and using a fury and warrior ring the accuracy rate on the CLS would be higher than 93.4% - 93,6%, I would assume 95% + with extremes, fury and warrior ring.

 

In any case we assumed earlier that the increased attk bonus on the CLS would yield a 5% greater accuracy. In actuality, if we use xpx's rapier accuracy of 80% and a CLS accuracy of 95% then the increased accuracy on the CLS over the rapier is more like 18% not 5%. 95/80 = 1.1875

 

Plugging these new accuracy rates into xpx's formula the result is:

 

Rapier = 0,8*124,8 = 99,84 DPS

Longsword = 0,95*108,7 = 103.265 DPS

 

This would be consistent with my personal observations that I usually out kill people using a rapier on slayer tasks.

 

I'll continue more trials.

[Zaaps1]

do they tell u how much gets reduced?

 

and is the ammount always 20%?

 

i dont see the 200+ as a problem, since a 199 or less isnt a hit to worry about, yet for say, a 300 to be reduced to a 240 would be nice

 

That's what I thought too, but if you think about it, it's those little hits that really cause trouble at many bosses.

 

At Tormented Demons, nearly all the damage you take is <200

 

At God Wars, you always protect against the most damaging attack. The generals also love to hit for under 200, because they're comparatively weak. But if all of them hit 199, that's more or less a 600.

[LatinII]

I recorded a couple of fights between two friends of mine. They're both maxed out, they're both using Turmoil and Soul Split and they're both potted with super attack potions, super strength potions and super defence potions. They're wearing almost identical equipment, except that Pip VI (the one with the rapier) is using an Ardougne cloak. I thought it may be cool to share it here.

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=neRQR3-WCYA

[xpx]

Renshae, i have never counted hits for accuracy, and the accuracy number is just taken to match my actual melee DPS(~slayer xp) with the maximum DPS figure, thus if maximum melee DPS is 124,8 and i get hit for 111,1, i assume the difference comes from accuracy, but it isn't necessarily true because of the assumption that every hit has equal odds to deliver, you aren't in cobat 100% of the time and you can't hit for more than the monster has HP left. Also, it is extremely unlikely cls is more accurate on supers than rapier is on overloads.

 

EDIT: i did an accuracy test on kurdals dungeon dark beasts with 142 stab, 136 str(fero ring), and over 562 hits i missed 81 times, which is good for 85,6% accuracy. Do keep in mind that this is done on dark beasts with one of the best defense for all slayer monsters.

[Aiel]

I'd also like to point out that any test that does not use the best possible gear is skewed in favor of the longsword.

[Renshae]

I'd also like to point out that any test that does not use the best possible gear is skewed in favor of the longsword.

How do you figure that since cls has better attk bonus? Better gear should benefit cls not rapier as was demonstrated with my trials with Sir Izenhime.

[Aiel]

I'd also like to point out that any test that does not use the best possible gear is skewed in favor of the longsword.

How do you figure that since cls has better attk bonus? Better gear should benefit cls not rapier as was demonstrated with my trials with Sir Izenhime.

better gear benefits the rapier as it has higher speed, and therefore makes use of these bonuses more often.

 

[hide]

with 99 strength turmoil and extremes, a rapier maxes at 461 with +101 strength (just rapier).

With 99 strength turmoil extremes, a rapier maxes at 599 with +151 strength (rapier+maxed gear)

 

With 99 strength turmoil and extremes, a longsword maxes at 513 with +120 strength (just ls)

With 99 strength turmoil and extremes, a longsword maxes at 652 with +170 strength (ls+maxed gear)

 

599-461=138 from gear for rapier

652-513=139 from gear for ls.

 

The increase in strength bonus therefore benefits the rapier more as it is faster

[/hide]

 

Accuracy increases benefit the rapier more as it is further from 100% accuracy and therefore will increase in accuracy faster (accuracy will never reach 100%, therefore the accuracy increase slows down the closer to 100% you get.)

[Obtaurian]

I'd also like to point out that any test that does not use the best possible gear is skewed in favor of the longsword.

How do you figure that since cls has better attk bonus? Better gear should benefit cls not rapier as was demonstrated with my trials with Sir Izenhime.

 

Two reasons:

 

1. The CLS is a very accurate weapon, but so is the rapier. Those accuracy boosts push the rapier even closer to the accuracy of the CLS, while the CLS can not get much more accurate than it is (remember that nothing can be more than 100% accurate). Thus, accuracy boosts favor the rapier.

 

2. In regards to strength bonus, the rapier is the faster weapon, therefore it can utilize the higher strength more often than the CLS. The CLS can only hit slightly higher than the rapier as it is, so the rapier is going to eventually win in DPS against most monsters due to its speed.

[Renshae]

I'd also like to point out that any test that does not use the best possible gear is skewed in favor of the longsword.

How do you figure that since cls has better attk bonus? Better gear should benefit cls not rapier as was demonstrated with my trials with Sir Izenhime.

 

Two reasons:

 

1. The CLS is a very accurate weapon, but so is the rapier. Those accuracy boosts push the rapier even closer to the accuracy of the CLS, while the CLS can not get much more accurate than it is (remember that nothing can be more than 100% accurate). Thus, accuracy boosts favor the rapier.

 

2. In regards to strength bonus, the rapier is the faster weapon, therefore it can utilize the higher strength more often than the CLS. The CLS can only hit slightly higher than the rapier as it is, so the rapier is going to eventually win in DPS against most monsters due to its speed.

Sounds good in theory but I have not seen that in practice in game.

[Aiel]

That's because your tests lack controls and it's nearly impossible to have a accurate test.

[Renshae]

I'd also like to point out that any test that does not use the best possible gear is skewed in favor of the longsword.

How do you figure that since cls has better attk bonus? Better gear should benefit cls not rapier as was demonstrated with my trials with Sir Izenhime.

better gear benefits the rapier as it has higher speed, and therefore makes use of these bonuses more often.

 

[hide]

with 99 strength turmoil and extremes, a rapier maxes at 461 with +101 strength (just rapier).

With 99 strength turmoil extremes, a rapier maxes at 599 with +151 strength (rapier+maxed gear)

 

With 99 strength turmoil and extremes, a longsword maxes at 513 with +120 strength (just ls)

With 99 strength turmoil and extremes, a longsword maxes at 652 with +170 strength (ls+maxed gear)

 

599-461=138 from gear for rapier

652-513=139 from gear for ls.

 

The increase in strength bonus therefore benefits the rapier more as it is faster

[/hide]

 

Accuracy increases benefit the rapier more as it is further from 100% accuracy and therefore will increase in accuracy faster (accuracy will never reach 100%, therefore the accuracy increase slows down the closer to 100% you get.)

NOT

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=neRQR3-WCYA&feature=player_embedded

[Obtaurian]

I'd also like to point out that any test that does not use the best possible gear is skewed in favor of the longsword.

How do you figure that since cls has better attk bonus? Better gear should benefit cls not rapier as was demonstrated with my trials with Sir Izenhime.

 

Two reasons:

 

1. The CLS is a very accurate weapon, but so is the rapier. Those accuracy boosts push the rapier even closer to the accuracy of the CLS, while the CLS can not get much more accurate than it is (remember that nothing can be more than 100% accurate). Thus, accuracy boosts favor the rapier.

 

2. In regards to strength bonus, the rapier is the faster weapon, therefore it can utilize the higher strength more often than the CLS. The CLS can only hit slightly higher than the rapier as it is, so the rapier is going to eventually win in DPS against most monsters due to its speed.

Sounds good in theory but I have not seen that in practice in game.

 

It's both a logical and intuitive deduction, and it DOES work in practical settings. No offense, but you seem to assign heavy significance to very small-scale tests that don't really prove anything other than Runescape's RNG is working just fine.

[SirIzenhime]

[hide]

I'd also like to point out that any test that does not use the best possible gear is skewed in favor of the longsword.

How do you figure that since cls has better attk bonus? Better gear should benefit cls not rapier as was demonstrated with my trials with Sir Izenhime.

better gear benefits the rapier as it has higher speed, and therefore makes use of these bonuses more often.

 

[hide]

with 99 strength turmoil and extremes, a rapier maxes at 461 with +101 strength (just rapier).

With 99 strength turmoil extremes, a rapier maxes at 599 with +151 strength (rapier+maxed gear)

 

With 99 strength turmoil and extremes, a longsword maxes at 513 with +120 strength (just ls)

With 99 strength turmoil and extremes, a longsword maxes at 652 with +170 strength (ls+maxed gear)

 

599-461=138 from gear for rapier

652-513=139 from gear for ls.

 

The increase in strength bonus therefore benefits the rapier more as it is faster

[/hide]

 

Accuracy increases benefit the rapier more as it is further from 100% accuracy and therefore will increase in accuracy faster (accuracy will never reach 100%, therefore the accuracy increase slows down the closer to 100% you get.)

NOT

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=neRQR3-WCYA&feature=player_embedded

[/hide]

 

Better gear =\= Rune, glory and Niet (slayer helm offers better bonus in context)

[Owned_Nex]

I think the only reason CLS is popular is because most Slayer monsters get 2 hit nowadays. I've been slaying, and, atleast in Kuradels Dung, I've seen maxed players consistently 2-3 hitting with CLS. Rapier is clearly better in the long run, but considering the HP of most monsters, if you are maxed with the best gear/supplies, the fight ends too early before rapier's superior DPS kicks in.

[GlowinRedM]

I want to mention that a lot of the "efficiency [bleep]" in this thread who only say "efficiency efficiency" on everything and preach the same thing on every little thing (including this thread) can't possibly have experience with everything. A lot of you saying CR > CLS don't have higher than 60 dungeoneering. Yeah, just cause the numbers roll one way doesn't make it true. Its about (pseudo)RANDOM numbers. Just because something SHOULD outperform something else in a given situation doesn't mean it will. Just because certain conditions will make one better than the other doesn't mean it will.

 

That being said, they all have their purpose, its called get what you want because you want it, not because everyone else says to get it. Its like training methods. "Oh, AZs are good XP cause everyone said so". "Oh, Rapier is best because these three users who haven't touched one know everything" -.-

 

/rant

[xpx]

I think the only reason CLS is popular is because most Slayer monsters get 2 hit nowadays. I've been slaying, and, atleast in Kuradels Dung, I've seen maxed players consistently 2-3 hitting with CLS. Rapier is clearly better in the long run, but considering the HP of most monsters, if you are maxed with the best gear/supplies, the fight ends too early before rapier's superior DPS kicks in.

It is called the death penalty, you can't hit for more than the monsters current hp, and actually, the larger the max hit of the weapon and the slower the speed of the weapon, the more you suffer from it, and as for 2-3 hits, rapier has almost as many of them since the max hits aren't too much different. This is also one of the reasons why whip is actually superior for most slayer tasks as whip doesn't suffer as much from death penalty.

[Zaaps1]

Just because something SHOULD outperform something else in a given situation doesn't mean it will. Just because certain conditions will make one better than the other doesn't mean it will.

 

/rant

 

Totally right.

 

But what are you going to rely on more?

 

You know, right now, however small a chance it is, there's the possibility that a robber is going to break into my house and shoot me in the head. But I'm not doing anything to prevent that now. Why should I? It SHOULDN'T happen, because the chance of it happening is very small.

 

Similarly, while it is true the CLS CAN outperform, the CR outperforms more. Therefore, if the CLS has a chance of doing better than the CR at a location, the CR may have an even better chance of doing better than the CLS there. Think about it think this. It's possible that at Bandos, you could have a Pack Yak full of supplies, 95 prayer, overloads, CLS, and the best gear. Say some kid in barrows, a whip + defender, super sets, piety, and a bunyip decide to crash you. Who is going to win? But then again, who has the small chance of doing better?

 

Exaggerated examples, to be sure, but I hope they get the point across.

 

That being said, I don't think the CLS is useless, either. In special circumstances I believe it is the best out of the 3, but that's just me.

[xpx]

Noone on this thread is actually saying that the CLS is useless, it just isn't as useful as the rapier, and it is the best weapon for a very limited amount of places/monsters. That said, when you can get your hands on two chaotic weapons, you will therefore eliminate the need for the CLS as it's the second best for most everything. A maxed player looking to be efficient would only get the CLS first if he doesn't train combat/kill frost dragons, his choice of Boss hunting revolves around solo bandos and solo sara with divine and he is not looking to ever get another melee chaotic weapon. In all other situations you are killing yourself for the small bonuses on sara/bandos by not getting the rapier. The only place the chaotic rapier isn't top notch is solo sara, but there veracs would be almost as good as CLS(assuming you have divine).

[Squisher_33]

Noone on this thread is actually saying that the CLS is useless, it just isn't as useful as the rapier, and it is the best weapon for a very limited amount of places/monsters. That said, when you can get your hands on two chaotic weapons, you will therefore eliminate the need for the CLS as it's the second best for most everything. A maxed player looking to be efficient would only get the CLS first if he doesn't train combat/kill frost dragons, his choice of Boss hunting revolves around solo bandos and solo sara with divine and he is not looking to ever get another melee chaotic weapon. In all other situations you are killing yourself for the small bonuses on sara/bandos by not getting the rapier. The only place the chaotic rapier isn't top notch is solo sara, but there veracs would be almost as good as CLS(assuming you have divine).

 

actualy i am saying that its useless

 

i have maul and rapier, therefore cls is useless, i have 200k tokens yet i refuse to buy cls cuz id never use it, not even once this year

[xpx]

It isn't useless ASSUMING one chaotic weapon. I do agree that if you can get many, particularly 2 chaotic melee weapons, the CLS will be useless.

[Grimy_Bunyip]

It isn't useless ASSUMING one chaotic weapon. I do agree that if you can get many, particularly 2 chaotic melee weapons, the CLS will be useless.

wait isn't that a trivial situation?

I thought this thread assumed the decision making point at which you decide, rapier or longsword.

[Zaaps1]

Exactly, and if you are maxed and only get one weapon, CLS is better because it's more versatile. You can use it everywhere.

[viralaether]

imo:

 

only ever getting 1 items: cls , not the best at any 1 thing but can do everything better then whip/gs

 

only ever getting 2 items: rapier + maul, will outperform cls in 90% of locations

 

only ever getting 3 items: rapier + maul + cbow, obvious

 

only ever getting 4 items: rapier + maul + cbow + whatever one you think would be best for your specific needs (eg you do arma everyday try rigour)

 

getting all items: rapier -> maul -> cbow -> ckite -> eakite -> long -> farseers -> staff (then alch it lol)

 

 

also i have both rapier and cls so my respect for maul and cbow are only from observation not use