Chaotic Rapier vs Longsword

[ghjkl]

Wrong. Calculate using your crappy formula what happens if you add a max accuracy setup with potions. I dare you. Assume fighter hat, bandos, fury, defender, d boots, fire cape, berserker ring, and barrows gloves.

Btw what happens when rapier hits 90% of the time. Does cls hit 137% of the time then?

[Aiel]

Your formula is a idk how to say it on the forum

You first give the cls a dps higher than possible after what you call a accuracy boost.

You ignore potions, prayer, and equipment because apparently people don't use them when training or boss hunting.

You assume accuracy is directly porportional to equipment bonuses. If rapier hits 90% of the time on a chicken, does a longsword hit 130%?

Look back 10 pages or so if you want to see the calculations.

As I explained earlier, I did not calculate DPS, I calculated damage efficiency ratios. It does not matter if you calculate the rapier at an accuracy factor of 1.0 and the cls at 1.14 OR if you use .86 for the rapier and 1.0 for the cls. The efficiency ratios still come out the same. The cls in stab mode is still 1.6% better and in slash mode it is 41 or 42% better.

 

You really don't get this math and statistics stuff do you?

 

btw, dps in COD or Modern warfare are easier to calculate since the only variables are how much damage is done per hit and how many shots per second are made.

 

You really can't figure dps on Runescape because each hit is variable based upon random number generators within a given range. i.e.

 

I shoot weapon A in COD or Mod warfare and it does 10 points damage. I can shoot 10 times in a second therefore weapon A has a DPS of 100.

 

However, in rune scape Weapon A might hit 0 or it may hit 500. It can hit once in every 3 seconds...what is its dps? We really cannot predict that since the amount of damage it does is variable. The only way to calculate it, is to assume that hypothetically it will hit it's max of 500 each time. Either that, or use a mean value of 250.

 

Even if we were to use a mean value of between 0 and max hit for the cls and rapier, the mean value for the cls would still be higher than the mean value for the rapier. The out come would still be that my calculations, whether we use the max hit value or the mean hit value, and so long as the rapier is 25% faster, and the cls hits 11% more accurately on stab and 59% more accurately on slash, are still valid calculations.

wrong. a 59% boost in accuracy bonus=/=a 59% boost in accuracy. You use the average value (250 from your example) because there is an equal chance that you will hit any number and therefore the long term average is (max hit+1)/2. This gives you your average damage per hit assuming 100% accuracy. If you divide this by the weapons speed (2.4 seconds p/hit, 3 seconds p/hit, etc.) you get the average DPS assuming 100% accuracy. When you factor in accuracy it gets a little more complicated, but if you know your opponents defense level, or can estimate it using turmoil (this is inaccurate, defense bonuses from amour are not shown, this makes it impossible to calculate your DPS vs a monster), you can calculate your %accuracy. This is then multiplied by your average 100% accuracy DPS in order to get your true DPS.

 

The defense level is essentially irrelevant however, as I already have shown that against a target with essentially infinite defense the rapier is ~4% better then the longsword.

 

If anyone with max melee stats, would like to do valid tests with the rapier vs the cls in the duel arena no arm, no pray, no pots, no other modifiers I would be willing to assist in said trials.

 

Sadly though, I am quickly coming to the conclusion that no one on this thread really has any desire to know the truth.

 

The reason no one will do that is because there is NO situation other then the duel arena where you wouldn't be using stat boosting gear/potions/prayer. Why would you do that? It's idiotic.

 

Honestly though, just out of pure boredom, I'll do it if you want. My RS name is the same as here.

The stat boosts would be the same if you both used the same gear/options/prayer. Because the stat boosts would be the same we can do the trials with out them since they would have the same effects.

 

Cool, you have same stats as me though.

 

I'll look you up. I'm honestly curious.

the test will only be accurate if you both have the same stab and slash defense bonuses, both use overloads, both use turmoil, and both have identical gear excluding the weapons slot, both use identical pking stratagies, both have identical ping, both attack at the same time to start with, and both do not use spec weapons. These factors make a test impracticable, so it must be done either long term (xp gains from slayer/AZ's/boss KP/H), or with math as I have already done.

[Squisher_33]

there is only 1 monster in rs i can think of that is considerable weaker to slash than stab, im convinced its the only monster where cls is better than rapier and thats skeletal wyverns, so saying "generaly better" as far as im concerned i skip wyvern tasks therefore to me, in the remaining every other scenario in rs rapier is better

 

more off topicness, im about to rake in 200k more tokens (happens every few weeks) so what shuold my 3rd chaotic be? i have maul and rapier

 

im not gonna waste it on cls since i have rapier for dps/slay and maul for accuracy/wfs

 

 

 

im considering either a shield, not sure which one maybe chaotic kite for def, then again farseer reduces 20% melee dmg, and 20% mage from eagle is usefull on some things like tankin corp or magers

 

or im considering t10 zerker/ t9 zerker art gather desp blaze

 

or 200k xp

 

or save until warped batch comes and pray for new rewards, if its like occult batch and rewards are junk then ill look back at the above, then again i dont wanna wait 2 months and save up 1m tokens

 

 

so any help? a shield? if so which one, or ring? possibly continue to dump into xp idk

[Aiel]

there is only 1 monster in rs i can think of that is considerable weaker to slash than stab, im convinced its the only monster where cls is better than rapier and thats skeletal wyverns, so saying "generaly better" as far as im concerned i skip wyvern tasks therefore to me, in the remaining every other scenario in rs rapier is better

 

more off topicness, im about to rake in 200k more tokens (happens every few weeks) so what shuold my 3rd chaotic be? i have maul and rapier

 

im not gonna waste it on cls since i have rapier for dps/slay and maul for accuracy/wfs

 

 

 

im considering either a shield, not sure which one maybe chaotic kite for def, then again farseer reduces 20% melee dmg, and 20% mage from eagle is usefull on some things like tankin corp or magers

 

or im considering t10 zerker/ t9 zerker art gather desp blaze

 

or 200k xp

 

or save until warped batch comes and pray for new rewards, if its like occult batch and rewards are junk then ill look back at the above, then again i dont wanna wait 2 months and save up 1m tokens

 

 

so any help? a shield? if so which one, or ring? possibly continue to dump into xp idk

its worth noting that the C'bow received a buff to 120 range bonus, making it actually worth it decent if you range slay/arma a decent amount

[ghjkl]

He's going for untrimmed slay, so he can't range outside of cannon. I would save for exp/batch 2.

[PereGrin]

Actually, I considered that and the numbers above were for comparison on an efficiency percentage basis. The proper way to figure it if the CLS is 14% more accurate than the rapier would be that for every 114 times the cls hits the rapier will miss 14 times. it is still 14% and will still result with the same efficiency ratio.

If the CLS does damage 114 times it has a maximum damage (according to your numbers) of 36,594. In this time, the rapier would hit 142 times, you claim it would miss 14, so it will deal damage 128 times. This would yield a maximum damage of 36,864 (again going off your numbers).

 

So essentially what you just said is 36.6k > 36.86k.

 

You are doing something wrong with your math, I'm just too tired to go find it now.

 

Also, fighting without armor or any sort of boots is almost worthless. In the rest of rs, this does not happen. Also, the more boosts you use, the better and better a faster weapon becomes. By using a faster weapon, you effectively make use of the boosts more often. This is why rune darts or knives are so much better in kuradels dungeon. With a rune Cbow, you make use of the +40 a bit. But with darts or knives, you just make use of the +40 so so so much more.

 

This is the theory that a large portion of the USA missle defense system works on. They use oversized gatling guns. The theory being, if you put enough high velocity chuncks of metal in the air around a missile, you are going to hit it, and missiles don't really carry enough armor to protect them from a small piece of metal moving between 5000 and 10,000 miles per hour in relation to the missile.

 

The Rapier may have slightly worse stats then the CLS, but it uses them far more often, therefore creating many more chances for it to deal damage.

[Squisher_33]

im sort of hoping with the new damage splat update, where they have reducing splats, it will make the shields more clear on how much they reduce

 

jagex makes the dung shields the main focus of this update, so im hoping this means theyll make sure shields reduce full dmg

 

if shiels reduce "up to 20%" meanig avg 10%, not getting

 

if shields reduce a full 20% and is clarified after the update, then ill be getting all 3 probably

[Renshae]

Well, Sir Izenhime and I did some trials at duel arena.

 

We did 10 trials no food, drinks or gear with both of us on stab mode.

 

It was 5 wins rapier, 5 wins cls.

 

We did 10 trilas no food, drinks or gear with both of us on slash mode.

 

It was 6 wins cls 4 wins rapier.

 

We did 10 trials with no food, drinks or gear with both of us on accurate mode.

 

It was 7 wins rapier 3 wins cls.

 

We did 10 trials with no food, drinks or gear with rapier on accurate(its best mode) and cls on aggressive slash(its best mode)

 

It was 7 wins rapier 3 wins cls.

 

We did 10 trials with no food or drinks with rapier on accurate (its best mode) and cls on aggressive slash( its best mode) while wearing the following gear:

 

 

It was 5 wins rapier; 5 wins cls.

 

IMO they are about evenly matched and it really is a matter of preference.

 

We also came to the conclusion that you would need to have max gear, extreme pots and turm, and you would need to most likely do at least 100 trials to come to a more definitve conclusion as to which was better at pvp. (if anyone ever does this please pm me in game. I'd be interested to see the results.)

 

As far as to which is better for slayer or pvm, not sure how to really test that without both being on the same tasks or monsters, with equal gear, pots and prayers.

 

In anycase, this is no longer an issue of interest for me.

 

Good luck and have fun with your rapiers. I love my CLS, wouldn't trade it for a rapier, and I'm going to go have some more fun with it. lol :-P

 

Thanks again Sir Izenhime, it was nice meeting you.

[Renshae]

Actually, I considered that and the numbers above were for comparison on an efficiency percentage basis. The proper way to figure it if the CLS is 14% more accurate than the rapier would be that for every 114 times the cls hits the rapier will miss 14 times. it is still 14% and will still result with the same efficiency ratio.

If the CLS does damage 114 times it has a maximum damage (according to your numbers) of 36,594. In this time, the rapier would hit 142 times, you claim it would miss 14, so it will deal damage 128 times. This would yield a maximum damage of 36,864 (again going off your numbers).

 

So essentially what you just said is 36.6k > 36.86k.

 

You are doing something wrong with your math, I'm just too tired to go find it now.

 

Also, fighting without armor or any sort of boots is almost worthless. In the rest of rs, this does not happen. Also, the more boosts you use, the better and better a faster weapon becomes. By using a faster weapon, you effectively make use of the boosts more often. This is why rune darts or knives are so much better in kuradels dungeon. With a rune Cbow, you make use of the +40 a bit. But with darts or knives, you just make use of the +40 so so so much more.

 

This is the theory that a large portion of the USA missle defense system works on. They use oversized gatling guns. The theory being, if you put enough high velocity chuncks of metal in the air around a missile, you are going to hit it, and missiles don't really carry enough armor to protect them from a small piece of metal moving between 5000 and 10,000 miles per hour in relation to the missile.

 

The Rapier may have slightly worse stats then the CLS, but it uses them far more often, therefore creating many more chances for it to deal damage.

Yes, in our trials neither my math nor the other math on this thread pans out in Runescape. The rapier and cls were pretty evenly matched. BTW, the speed you guys report on here for the cls and rapier do not match with reality in game. We traded hit for hit every trial. If the speeds purported on here were true the rapier should have hit 3 times for every 2 times the cls hit? It that right? Sorry, getting tired and my brain is shutting down.

 

In any case they hit really really close to the same speed.

[Jehosaphat]

The amount of arguing over the CR vs. CLS is currently: amusing.

 

Face it. CR is better on targets that are equally strong against stab/slash, targets with abysmally low defence (slayer monsters), and creatures weak to stab. CLS is better against stuff that's weak against slash, but insanely strong against stab. This could honestly be turned into a GS vs. Whip debate, and it would probably look almost exactly the same.

 

People have run the numbers so many times that the next time I see the stats for the CR or CLS with or without maxed melee/turm/ovls, I am going to barf.

[Aiel]

Actually, I considered that and the numbers above were for comparison on an efficiency percentage basis. The proper way to figure it if the CLS is 14% more accurate than the rapier would be that for every 114 times the cls hits the rapier will miss 14 times. it is still 14% and will still result with the same efficiency ratio.

If the CLS does damage 114 times it has a maximum damage (according to your numbers) of 36,594. In this time, the rapier would hit 142 times, you claim it would miss 14, so it will deal damage 128 times. This would yield a maximum damage of 36,864 (again going off your numbers).

 

So essentially what you just said is 36.6k > 36.86k.

 

You are doing something wrong with your math, I'm just too tired to go find it now.

 

Also, fighting without armor or any sort of boots is almost worthless. In the rest of rs, this does not happen. Also, the more boosts you use, the better and better a faster weapon becomes. By using a faster weapon, you effectively make use of the boosts more often. This is why rune darts or knives are so much better in kuradels dungeon. With a rune Cbow, you make use of the +40 a bit. But with darts or knives, you just make use of the +40 so so so much more.

 

This is the theory that a large portion of the USA missle defense system works on. They use oversized gatling guns. The theory being, if you put enough high velocity chuncks of metal in the air around a missile, you are going to hit it, and missiles don't really carry enough armor to protect them from a small piece of metal moving between 5000 and 10,000 miles per hour in relation to the missile.

 

The Rapier may have slightly worse stats then the CLS, but it uses them far more often, therefore creating many more chances for it to deal damage.

Yes, in our trials neither my math nor the other math on this thread pans out in Runescape. The rapier and cls were pretty evenly matched.

a 4% increase vs. infinite defense is basically "evenly matched" however you should not go around saying the rapier is better when it is not.

[xpx]

I still can't fathom how renshae can keep yapping that long...

 

Firstly, when you design a ''scientific'' test it shouldn't particularly favor either of the weapons. Did you do that? No. As anyone with half a brain would understand, the faster weapon benefits much greatly from all stat/accuracy boosts, and by eliminating them you gave the CLS an unfair advantage. A test should always mimic the performance in real life situations, and your's wasn't even close.

 

Secondly, you have absolutely no understanding of accuracy. For most monsters, attack styles matter very little so it's reasonable to compare cls on slash and rapier on stab, that means comparing 124 base slash to 94 base stab. It is reasonable to assume that you can't hit more than 100% of the time, as well as that you can't hit 100% of the time as there will always be misses, so from those two undoubtedly true sentences we can assume accuracy is a hill that gets steeper by the moment, and you are unable to reach the top. What does all this mean? It means that as your accuracy boosts get higher, they won't translate linearly(as you assumed) to how accurate you are. A further proof is that the abyssal whip didn't get any less accurate when either the godsword or chaotic maul were released, even though it should have by your logic, as a much more accurate weapon was released. As of general knowledge, the abyssal whip hits with around 75% on general slayer tasks with low defense(abyssal demons, hellhounds, nechryael etc) and the chaotic maul, with nearly twice the attack bonus, hits with around 85% accuracy on the same monsters. So really, with such a huge boost in accuracy(123 vs 190, 54% boost) you only receive a 13% boost in accuracy.

 

Now, with those in mind, lets do the calculations again.

 

rapier hits every 2,4 seconds, longsword every 3 seconds.

 

Rapier base strength 101, longsword base strength 120, with optimal strength equipment for general monster slaying(neit, bandos, fire cape, fury, dragon boots, defender, dark gloves and berserker(i)) the values are 151 str vs 170 str. Using the tip.it max damage calculator(which is a bit wrong, but it is linearly wrong, so the values will be off by the same amount) we get max damage as:

 

Rapier 599

Longsword 652

 

Assuming that every positive hit is equally possible we get average damage of 299,5 and 326 for the weapons. Dividing the values by the seconds it takes to deal them gives us an approximate of the DPS(damage per second) of the weapons if they were both 100% accurate.

 

Rapier = 299,5/2,4 = 124,8

Longsword = 326/3 = 108,7

 

This already shows that when accuracy doesn't matter at all anymore( for instance, killing chickens) the rapier would be alot better than the longsword.

 

But now lets tackle the accuracy. With that same equipment the accuracy boosts for the weapons would be: 136 for rapier, 165 for longsword, which means the accuracy boost is 21% higher. Going by the analogy made earlier and assuming that accuracy is linear in that gap(which it isn't, but this benefits the cls more) 21% boost in accuracy bonus would result in a 5% increase in accuracy from longsword to rapier, so if we assume the rapier to hit 80% of the time(which is consequently my average on most slayer tasks) the longsword will hit 84% of the time, and by adding those to our earlier DPS calculations we get:

 

Rapier = 0,8*124,8 = 99,84 DPS

Longsword = 0,84*108,7 = 91,31 DPS

 

Keep in mind, this isn't 100% correct, but it is a very accurate in the way that it agrees with the numbers of in-game experience you would get in an hour with either weapon. The calculations of accuracy are a bit off by way of assuming linear increase in that small gap, but it is easy to understand that them being off benefits the longsword more than rapier.

 

By the way, yes, this shows that for general melee combat training, the rapier is ATLEAST 9,3% better than the longsword, and in many situations where the accuracy will be exactly the same, the rapier will be 14,8% better.

[Renshae]

The amount of arguing over the CR vs. CLS is currently: amusing.

 

Face it. CR is better on targets that are equally strong against stab/slash, targets with abysmally low defence (slayer monsters), and creatures weak to stab. CLS is better against stuff that's weak against slash, but insanely strong against stab. This could honestly be turned into a GS vs. Whip debate, and it would probably look almost exactly the same.

 

People have run the numbers so many times that the next time I see the stats for the CR or CLS with or without maxed melee/turm/ovls, I am going to barf.

AMEN BROTHER!!!!!

 

PREACH IT!!!!

 

Seriously though, you have summarized the strengths and weaknesses of the two quite well. but btw whip > GS ROFL!!!!!

[Renshae]

I still can't fathom how renshae can keep yapping that long...

 

Firstly, when you design a ''scientific'' test it shouldn't particularly favor either of the weapons. Did you do that? No. As anyone with half a brain would understand, the faster weapon benefits much greatly from all stat/accuracy boosts, and by eliminating them you gave the CLS an unfair advantage. A test should always mimic the performance in real life situations, and your's wasn't even close.

 

Secondly, you have absolutely no understanding of accuracy. For most monsters, attack styles matter very little so it's reasonable to compare cls on slash and rapier on stab, that means comparing 124 base slash to 94 base stab. It is reasonable to assume that you can't hit more than 100% of the time, as well as that you can't hit 100% of the time as there will always be misses, so from those two undoubtedly true sentences we can assume accuracy is a hill that gets steeper by the moment, and you are unable to reach the top. What does all this mean? It means that as your accuracy boosts get higher, they won't translate linearly(as you assumed) to how accurate you are. A further proof is that the abyssal whip didn't get any less accurate when either the godsword or chaotic maul were released, even though it should have by your logic, as a much more accurate weapon was released. As of general knowledge, the abyssal whip hits with around 75% on general slayer tasks with low defense(abyssal demons, hellhounds, nechryael etc) and the chaotic maul, with nearly twice the attack bonus, hits with around 85% accuracy on the same monsters. So really, with such a huge boost in accuracy(123 vs 190, 54% boost) you only receive a 13% boost in accuracy.

 

Now, with those in mind, lets do the calculations again.

 

rapier hits every 2,4 seconds, longsword every 3 seconds.

 

Rapier base strength 101, longsword base strength 120, with optimal strength equipment for general monster slaying(neit, bandos, fire cape, fury, dragon boots, defender, dark gloves and berserker(i)) the values are 151 str vs 170 str. Using the tip.it max damage calculator(which is a bit wrong, but it is linearly wrong, so the values will be off by the same amount) we get max damage as:

 

Rapier 599

Longsword 652

 

Assuming that every positive hit is equally possible we get average damage of 299,5 and 326 for the weapons. Dividing the values by the seconds it takes to deal them gives us an approximate of the DPS(damage per second) of the weapons if they were both 100% accurate.

 

Rapier = 299,5/2,4 = 124,8

Longsword = 326/3 = 108,7

 

This already shows that when accuracy doesn't matter at all anymore( for instance, killing chickens) the rapier would be alot better than the longsword.

 

But now lets tackle the accuracy. With that same equipment the accuracy boosts for the weapons would be: 136 for rapier, 165 for longsword, which means the accuracy boost is 21% higher. Going by the analogy made earlier and assuming that accuracy is linear in that gap(which it isn't, but this benefits the cls more) 21% boost in accuracy bonus would result in a 5% increase in accuracy from longsword to rapier, so if we assume the rapier to hit 80% of the time(which is consequently my average on most slayer tasks) the longsword will hit 84% of the time, and by adding those to our earlier DPS calculations we get:

 

Rapier = 0,8*124,8 = 99,84 DPS

Longsword = 0,84*108,7 = 91,31 DPS

 

Keep in mind, this isn't 100% correct, but it is a very accurate in the way that it agrees with the numbers of in-game experience you would get in an hour with either weapon. The calculations of accuracy are a bit off by way of assuming linear increase in that small gap, but it is easy to understand that them being off benefits the longsword more than rapier.

 

By the way, yes, this shows that for general melee combat training, the rapier is ATLEAST 9,3% better than the longsword, and in many situations where the accuracy will be exactly the same, the rapier will be 14,8% better.

Question, how do you make the leap that a 21% boost in accuracy yields 5% boost in accuracy? I was with you up until then...wouldn't it follow that if the rapier hits 80% of the time and the cls hits 21% more accurately then the CLS would hit 96 % of the time?

 

Or is there some inherent accuracy rate in the cls and rapier already that has not been addressed?

 

lol oh dear I'm rat meat, :ohnoes:

[xpx]

The problem is, you believe that infinite accuracy is possible, but it isn't. I compared an accurate weapons accuracy(whip) to the accuracy of the MOST accurate weapon in game, and assumed that accuracy boosts benefit weapons linearly in that small gap(from 75 to 85% accuracy). This isn't a 100% accurate assumption, but it benefits the longsword more than the rapier, so it is fair for me to use it to prove a point. By this assumption, the longsword can't be more accurate than the most accurate weapon in game, which is very much logical, and thus the accuracy of any weapon can't be more than 85%.

 

If we go by your assumption, the rapier would hit 80% of the time, the longsword would hit 97% of the time and the maul would hit 112% of the time, which is obviously impossible. The more realistic reality is that the rapier hits 80% of the time, the maul hits 85% of the time and the longsword hit's somewhere in between those two, and i assumed that it is 84%(which is an overestimation, but fair in this context).

[Aiel]

I still can't fathom how renshae can keep yapping that long...

 

Firstly, when you design a ''scientific'' test it shouldn't particularly favor either of the weapons. Did you do that? No. As anyone with half a brain would understand, the faster weapon benefits much greatly from all stat/accuracy boosts, and by eliminating them you gave the CLS an unfair advantage. A test should always mimic the performance in real life situations, and your's wasn't even close.

 

Secondly, you have absolutely no understanding of accuracy. For most monsters, attack styles matter very little so it's reasonable to compare cls on slash and rapier on stab, that means comparing 124 base slash to 94 base stab. It is reasonable to assume that you can't hit more than 100% of the time, as well as that you can't hit 100% of the time as there will always be misses, so from those two undoubtedly true sentences we can assume accuracy is a hill that gets steeper by the moment, and you are unable to reach the top. What does all this mean? It means that as your accuracy boosts get higher, they won't translate linearly(as you assumed) to how accurate you are. A further proof is that the abyssal whip didn't get any less accurate when either the godsword or chaotic maul were released, even though it should have by your logic, as a much more accurate weapon was released. As of general knowledge, the abyssal whip hits with around 75% on general slayer tasks with low defense(abyssal demons, hellhounds, nechryael etc) and the chaotic maul, with nearly twice the attack bonus, hits with around 85% accuracy on the same monsters. So really, with such a huge boost in accuracy(123 vs 190, 54% boost) you only receive a 13% boost in accuracy.

 

Now, with those in mind, lets do the calculations again.

 

rapier hits every 2,4 seconds, longsword every 3 seconds.

 

Rapier base strength 101, longsword base strength 120, with optimal strength equipment for general monster slaying(neit, bandos, fire cape, fury, dragon boots, defender, dark gloves and berserker(i)) the values are 151 str vs 170 str. Using the tip.it max damage calculator(which is a bit wrong, but it is linearly wrong, so the values will be off by the same amount) we get max damage as:

 

Rapier 599

Longsword 652

 

Assuming that every positive hit is equally possible we get average damage of 299,5 and 326 for the weapons. Dividing the values by the seconds it takes to deal them gives us an approximate of the DPS(damage per second) of the weapons if they were both 100% accurate.

 

Rapier = 299,5/2,4 = 124,8

Longsword = 326/3 = 108,7

 

This already shows that when accuracy doesn't matter at all anymore( for instance, killing chickens) the rapier would be alot better than the longsword.

 

But now lets tackle the accuracy. With that same equipment the accuracy boosts for the weapons would be: 136 for rapier, 165 for longsword, which means the accuracy boost is 21% higher. Going by the analogy made earlier and assuming that accuracy is linear in that gap(which it isn't, but this benefits the cls more) 21% boost in accuracy bonus would result in a 5% increase in accuracy from longsword to rapier, so if we assume the rapier to hit 80% of the time(which is consequently my average on most slayer tasks) the longsword will hit 84% of the time, and by adding those to our earlier DPS calculations we get:

 

Rapier = 0,8*124,8 = 99,84 DPS

Longsword = 0,84*108,7 = 91,31 DPS

 

Keep in mind, this isn't 100% correct, but it is a very accurate in the way that it agrees with the numbers of in-game experience you would get in an hour with either weapon. The calculations of accuracy are a bit off by way of assuming linear increase in that small gap, but it is easy to understand that them being off benefits the longsword more than rapier.

 

By the way, yes, this shows that for general melee combat training, the rapier is ATLEAST 9,3% better than the longsword, and in many situations where the accuracy will be exactly the same, the rapier will be 14,8% better.

Question, how do you make the leap that a 21% boost in accuracy yields 5% boost in accuracy? I was with you up until then...wouldn't it follow that if the rapier hits 80% of the time and the cls hits 21% more accurately then the CLS would hit 96 % of the time?

 

Or is there some inherent accuracy rate in the cls and rapier already that has not been addressed?

 

lol oh dear I'm rat meat, :ohnoes:

the increase between attack bonus and accuracy is not linear.

[leonxb]

im sort of hoping with the new damage splat update, where they have reducing splats, it will make the shields more clear on how much they reduce

 

jagex makes the dung shields the main focus of this update, so im hoping this means theyll make sure shields reduce full dmg

 

if shiels reduce "up to 20%" meanig avg 10%, not getting

 

if shields reduce a full 20% and is clarified after the update, then ill be getting all 3 probably

The shields don't even absorb 10% damage atm. At armadyl, the eagle-eye kiteshield always absorbs 1 life point of damage from a mage attack if it would have hit 200+. Never more than 1 life point. It seems the eagle-eye kiteshield is bugged, but i don't know if the other shield have this problem too.

[Renshae]

The problem is, you believe that infinite accuracy is possible, but it isn't. I compared an accurate weapons accuracy(whip) to the accuracy of the MOST accurate weapon in game, and assumed that accuracy boosts benefit weapons linearly in that small gap(from 75 to 85% accuracy). This isn't a 100% accurate assumption, but it benefits the longsword more than the rapier, so it is fair for me to use it to prove a point. By this assumption, the longsword can't be more accurate than the most accurate weapon in game, which is very much logical, and thus the accuracy of any weapon can't be more than 85%.

 

If we go by your assumption, the rapier would hit 80% of the time, the longsword would hit 97% of the time and the maul would hit 112% of the time, which is obviously impossible. The more realistic reality is that the rapier hits 80% of the time, the maul hits 85% of the time and the longsword hit's somewhere in between those two, and i assumed that it is 84%(which is an overestimation, but fair in this context).

So, you are postulating that the whip is the most accurate weapon in the game and nothing can hit more accurately than the whip does? Ever? If I am understanding your assumption correctly, on what basis are you basing this assumption? What happens when a new weapon comes out like a rapier or cls that perhaps is more accurate than the whip?

 

But you have got me curious as to the accuracy rate for the cls now. I shall have to start counting my hits to null hits in order to calculate the accuracy rate on the cls..

 

What do you calculate the hit rate on the whip to be?

 

and if speed and accuracy are so important then why does the faster and more accurate whip out hit the CLS?

 

What is the speed of the whip btw?

 

Soz guys really not trying to be annoying, this stuff just fascinates me.

[xpx]

The problem is, you believe that infinite accuracy is possible, but it isn't. I compared an accurate weapons accuracy(whip) to the accuracy of the MOST accurate weapon in game, and assumed that accuracy boosts benefit weapons linearly in that small gap(from 75 to 85% accuracy). This isn't a 100% accurate assumption, but it benefits the longsword more than the rapier, so it is fair for me to use it to prove a point. By this assumption, the longsword can't be more accurate than the most accurate weapon in game, which is very much logical, and thus the accuracy of any weapon can't be more than 85%.

 

If we go by your assumption, the rapier would hit 80% of the time, the longsword would hit 97% of the time and the maul would hit 112% of the time, which is obviously impossible. The more realistic reality is that the rapier hits 80% of the time, the maul hits 85% of the time and the longsword hit's somewhere in between those two, and i assumed that it is 84%(which is an overestimation, but fair in this context).

 

 

So, you are postulating that the whip is the most accurate weapon in the game and nothing can hit more accurately than the whip does? If I am understanding your assumption correctly, on what basis are you basing this assumption?

 

But you have got me curious as to the accuracy rate for the cls now. I shall have to start counting my hits to null hits in order to calculate the accuracy rate on the cls..

I'm postulating that an abyssal whip is a very accurate weapon and that the chaotic maul is the most accurate weapon.

 

By the way, i'm up for a dark beast slaying competition, in which we both wear the same armor, use overloads and turmoil and each count the kills we can get in a ~20 minute period, each stating kc after every kill.

 

Going by the same analogy as the earlier calculations...

 

Whip max hit 541 (str bonus 132)

average hit 270,5

damage per second with 100% accuracy (speed 2,4 seconds per hit) 112,71

Accuracy bonus 123, cls has 34% more, meaning at max, the cls is 8,2% more accurate. Assuming CLS accuracy stays at 84% as earlier, whip would hit 77,6% of the time.

So the total comes to:

 

CLS 91,31(as earlier)

Whip = 0,776*112,71 = 87,5

 

So as we can see from this, at max for low def monsters, the cls is marginally, 4,3% better than the whip, but as we can also see, when accuracy doesn't matter at all, the whip is marginally(3,7%) better than the longsword.

[Renshae]

The problem is, you believe that infinite accuracy is possible, but it isn't. I compared an accurate weapons accuracy(whip) to the accuracy of the MOST accurate weapon in game, and assumed that accuracy boosts benefit weapons linearly in that small gap(from 75 to 85% accuracy). This isn't a 100% accurate assumption, but it benefits the longsword more than the rapier, so it is fair for me to use it to prove a point. By this assumption, the longsword can't be more accurate than the most accurate weapon in game, which is very much logical, and thus the accuracy of any weapon can't be more than 85%.

 

If we go by your assumption, the rapier would hit 80% of the time, the longsword would hit 97% of the time and the maul would hit 112% of the time, which is obviously impossible. The more realistic reality is that the rapier hits 80% of the time, the maul hits 85% of the time and the longsword hit's somewhere in between those two, and i assumed that it is 84%(which is an overestimation, but fair in this context).

So, you are postulating that the whip is the most accurate weapon in the game and nothing can hit more accurately than the whip does? If I am understanding your assumption correctly, on what basis are you basing this assumption?

 

But you have got me curious as to the accuracy rate for the cls now. I shall have to start counting my hits to null hits in order to calculate the accuracy rate on the cls..

I'm postulating that an abyssal whip is a very accurate weapon and that the chaotic maul is the most accurate weapon.

 

By the way, i'm up for a dark beast slaying competition, in which we both wear the same armor, use overloads and turmoil and each count the kills we can get in a ~20 minute period, each stating kc after every kill.

Ah, gotcha on the whip thing.

 

TBH, im kinda of a pk noob with 79 herblore. Best I can do is turmoil and supers. If you'd like to do that some time I'm game.

 

as a side note, the max hit calc on tip it is incorrect. I entered the gear that I usually slay in kuradels dungeon using turmoil and super str. It says max hit with cls is 680. I've hit 700 and regularly hit in the 690's. If max hit calc is off by the same amount(20 damage points) using extremes then the max hit on the cls would on a slayer task in max gear and extremes at kuradels praying turmoil would be 753. Max hit everything being the same with a rapier would be 695.

 

What is your personal max hit with rapier?

 

I added you to my friend list. Catch me sometime and we'll go kill some dark beasts. I'm "Renshae" in game too.

[bedman]

Well, Sir Izenhime and I did some trials at duel arena.

 

We did 10 trials no food, drinks or gear with both of us on stab mode.

 

It was 5 wins rapier, 5 wins cls.

 

We did 10 trilas no food, drinks or gear with both of us on slash mode.

 

It was 6 wins cls 4 wins rapier.

 

We did 10 trials with no food, drinks or gear with both of us on accurate mode.

 

It was 7 wins rapier 3 wins cls.

 

We did 10 trials with no food, drinks or gear with rapier on accurate(its best mode) and cls on aggressive slash(its best mode)

 

It was 7 wins rapier 3 wins cls.

 

We did 10 trials with no food or drinks with rapier on accurate (its best mode) and cls on aggressive slash( its best mode) while wearing the following gear:

 

 

It was 5 wins rapier; 5 wins cls.

 

IMO they are about evenly matched and it really is a matter of preference.

 

We also came to the conclusion that you would need to have max gear, extreme pots and turm, and you would need to most likely do at least 100 trials to come to a more definitve conclusion as to which was better at pvp. (if anyone ever does this please pm me in game. I'd be interested to see the results.)

 

As far as to which is better for slayer or pvm, not sure how to really test that without both being on the same tasks or monsters, with equal gear, pots and prayers.

 

In anycase, this is no longer an issue of interest for me.

 

Good luck and have fun with your rapiers. I love my CLS, wouldn't trade it for a rapier, and I'm going to go have some more fun with it. lol :-P

 

Thanks again Sir Izenhime, it was nice meeting you.

Go up like 10 pages, me and Lugia did a similar test. We came out at 16-20 (I think) in favor of the CLS. This test was without pots, so rapier was disadvantaged.

 

Ps: my max with rapier on slayer task is 701 (using bandos + dfs + str ammy + fero ring etc)

[xpx]

my max hit on accurate at kurdals dungeon is 674(fury, defender) and the tip it calc says it should be 669 on agressive, so it's not off by alot, certainly wouldn't change any of the calculations by more than a percentage point. As for the test, i really couldn't be bothered to slay with anything less than extremes, and if we don't both use overloads the results could differ too much(overloads offer a constant boost, where as other potions degrade in use). But if anyone else with a cls wants to try the test themselves, i'd be happy to help.

[Squisher_33]

im sort of hoping with the new damage splat update, where they have reducing splats, it will make the shields more clear on how much they reduce

 

jagex makes the dung shields the main focus of this update, so im hoping this means theyll make sure shields reduce full dmg

 

if shiels reduce "up to 20%" meanig avg 10%, not getting

 

if shields reduce a full 20% and is clarified after the update, then ill be getting all 3 probably

The shields don't even absorb 10% damage atm. At armadyl, the eagle-eye kiteshield always absorbs 1 life point of damage from a mage attack if it would have hit 200+. Never more than 1 life point. It seems the eagle-eye kiteshield is bugged, but i don't know if the other shield have this problem too.

 

like i said i hope it gets fixed along with the dmg update

 

btw to the shields tell u the examt ammount of dmg they reduce?

[Renshae]

im sort of hoping with the new damage splat update, where they have reducing splats, it will make the shields more clear on how much they reduce

 

jagex makes the dung shields the main focus of this update, so im hoping this means theyll make sure shields reduce full dmg

 

if shiels reduce "up to 20%" meanig avg 10%, not getting

 

if shields reduce a full 20% and is clarified after the update, then ill be getting all 3 probably

The shields don't even absorb 10% damage atm. At armadyl, the eagle-eye kiteshield always absorbs 1 life point of damage from a mage attack if it would have hit 200+. Never more than 1 life point. It seems the eagle-eye kiteshield is bugged, but i don't know if the other shield have this problem too.

 

like i said i hope it gets fixed along with the dmg update

 

btw to the shields tell u the examt ammount of dmg they reduce?

I'd be ticked @ my eagle eye big time. Are they all glitched like that or just eagle eye?

[Zaaps1]

No, but they only remove damage if the hit would've done >200 LP.