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Chaotic Rapier vs Longsword


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Exactly, and if you are maxed and only get one weapon, CLS is better because it's more versatile. You can use it everywhere.

You are getting something horribly wrong here, if you are maxed and can only plan on getting one weapon, rapier is the only option. CLS makes sense when you aren't maxed and don't plan on maxing out or when you are maxed and plan on doing only three specific things(TD's, bandos and sara with divine). Saying that CLS is more versatile than rapier is ridiculous at best.

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First to 3766 Port Score on 20. March, 2014.

First to 4664 Port Score on 2. March, 2015.

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I want to mention that a lot of the "efficiency [bleep]" in this thread who only say "efficiency efficiency" on everything and preach the same thing on every little thing (including this thread) can't possibly have experience with everything. A lot of you saying CR > CLS don't have higher than 60 dungeoneering. Yeah, just cause the numbers roll one way doesn't make it true. Its about (pseudo)RANDOM numbers. Just because something SHOULD outperform something else in a given situation doesn't mean it will. Just because certain conditions will make one better than the other doesn't mean it will.

 

That being said, they all have their purpose, its called get what you want because you want it, not because everyone else says to get it. Its like training methods. "Oh, AZs are good XP cause everyone said so". "Oh, Rapier is best because these three users who haven't touched one know everything" -.-

 

/rant

 

 

Oh, so we should drop our chaotic weapons and go get fulll DH because it has the potential to outpeform every chaotic weapon?

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Exactly, and if you are maxed and only get one weapon, CLS is better because it's more versatile. You can use it everywhere.

You've said this how many times now?

The point is that once your maxed stats, rapier > CLS in all situations except for MAYBE graardor and skeletal wyverns.

and even so, the CLS is only marginally better at graardor and skeletal wyverns.

 

I assert:

(assuming maxed stats)

If the target's stab defense is less than or equal to its slash defense, the rapier is ALWAYS better than the CLS.

By "ALWAYS", i mean it becomes a mathematical impossibility for the longsword to have better DPS than the rapier.

 

and of course if the target's defense is low, the rapier dominates.

 

This is the case for all dragons, tormented demons, and commander zilyanna.

there are very few monsters with higher stab defense than slash defense.

And even fewer with low enough defense levels for it to even matter

 

skeletal wyverns definitely are weaker to slash than stab, and have high defense so the CLS might be good there, but it's uncertain.

Some people claim graardor has lower slash defense than stab, based on the stats of bandos armor. But once again, it's uncertain.

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In terms of where the Rapier is better, yes, it's better than the CLS. But when it is better, by how much? When the CLS is better, by how much is it? In both cases, since there are so many cases on either side, I can't help but think that either weapons gains such a marginal advantage over the other in places it is better.

 

I could be totally wrong, as I haven't used both. But I can't see CLS being astronomically better than the CR, as everyone has said. Likewise, I can't see the CR being astronomically better than the CLS (outside of training situations, of course, there is no question there). So yes, everyone can say "oh, potions and attack bonuses almost always benefit the slower weapon", which is totally correct, but it leaves the question of "how much?" That, I think, is the key.

 

So, again, training situations aside, if the CR isn't better by an enormous amount over the CLS at bosses/high-end monsters, and the CLS isn't gratuitously superior over the CR at bandos/sara/wherever, is there really much point to debating the way we have, about theories, DPS calcs, etc? Surely, the point has been made that the CR is better than the CLS at most locations, if not by very much.

 

If that is the case, I would much rather take the weapon that is second-best everywhere. I don't think anyone can prove that you will get 5+ kills less/hour if you used the CLS instead of a Rapier, partly because I don't think that's true.

 

In truth, they are both fantastic weapons, and yes the CR is better at more locations. But since I can't imagine it being significantly better to render the CLS completely useless, I'm going with the CLS. It had wider coverage than the CR and wider coverage than the CM. In the places where they compete, it can't be much worse.

 

That is my reasoning, but I could very well be wrong. Again, I've never used the CR, but this is based off what I'm hearing in this thread, in RS, and what I've personally seen. If it is wrong and you can prove it's wrong, by all means, I'll be the idiot stuck with the Longsword and wishing I got the Rapier. But the way it stands now, I feel there is justification in buying the CLS.

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You'll be getting 5 kills/h less at a lot more places if you choose cls over rapier though, and its not like you're not able to use a rapier at bandos (idk about solo sara but who does that anyway).

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You'll be getting 5 kills/h less at a lot more places if you choose cls over rapier though, and its not like you're not able to use a rapier at bandos (idk about solo sara but who does that anyway).

 

I know I'll be less effective at a lot more places.

 

But the question is, is it really that significant? 5k/h is a made-up number. Does anyone have proof that it is that high, or even higher, and many boss locations? Because from observations and what people have been saying, I really don't think it is.

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In terms of where the Rapier is better, yes, it's better than the CLS. But when it is better, by how much? When the CLS is better, by how much is it? In both cases, since there are so many cases on either side, I can't help but think that either weapons gains such a marginal advantage over the other in places it is better.

 

assuming maxed stats, and based on my DPS calculator:

On a target of 0 defense, rapier is 1.14x better DPS

On a target of equal stab and slash defense, rapier is 1.14x to 1.0017x better DPS (never inferior DPS to the CLS)

On a target of high slash defense, and stab defense that is so much higher than the slash defense that the rapier is better off slashing than stabbing, then the CLS is up to 1.09x better DPS

And of course, if the stab defense is higher than the slash defense, but not higher enough, the rapier is still better.

 

once again the only two monsters with high overall defense, and higher stab defense than slash that i know of, are skeletal wyverns and MAYBE graardor (graardor is just based on speculation)

 

That is my reasoning, but I could very well be wrong. Again, I've never used the CR, but this is based off what I'm hearing in this thread, in RS, and what I've personally seen. If it is wrong and you can prove it's wrong, by all means, I'll be the idiot stuck with the Longsword and wishing I got the Rapier. But the way it stands now, I feel there is justification in buying the CLS.

People have already started developing theories on how to calculate DPS.

You really should start looking into these theories, instead of just relying on intuition.

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What? I never said you didn't hit 700 with CLS. I've hit 700s with my CLS. The first statement about the max hit was directly at stonewall, who said the rapier hits 700+ in Kuradal's Dungeon. I used the Max Hit calculator and determined that it doesn't, then proved that the CLS can.

 

I'm sorry I didn't make that clear. I didn't expect there to be so many posts in between.

Max hit calculator is [cabbage]. Want pictures?

 

Using the Max hit calculator as the "end all" to determine a max his is not only asinine, but based on far too many unknowns (Compared to the old whip/defender combo) to be reasonably accurate.

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[hide=Drops]Araxxor Eye x1 Leg pieces x2
GWD: 5000 Addy bar Steam B Staff x3 Z Spear x6 Sara. Hilt x2 Bandos Hilt x2 (LS, Solo)SS x6 (1 LS)
Tormented Demons: Shard x6 Slice x5 Claws x9 Limbs x3
DKS: Archer x21 Warrior x31 Berserker x30 Axe x51[/hide]

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@stonewall: If it's wrong, my bad. I went to confirm what you said, and I couldn't get it to work out. If you insist that you can, I'll take your word for it, but can you at least tell me the circumstances? Picture won't be necessary, I can take your word for it.

 

 

assuming maxed stats, and based on my DPS calculator:

On a target of 0 defense, rapier is 1.14x better DPS

On a target of equal stab and slash defense, rapier is 1.14x to 1.0017x better DPS (never inferior DPS to the CLS)

On a target of high slash defense, and stab defense that is so much higher than the slash defense that the rapier is better off slashing than stabbing, then the CLS is up to 1.09x better DPS

And of course, if the stab defense is higher than the slash defense, but not higher enough, the rapier is still better.

 

once again the only two monsters with high overall defense, and higher stab defense than slash that i know of, are skeletal wyverns and MAYBE graardor (graardor is just based on speculation)

 

 

That's not really what I meant. I know about DPS and all, but there's what the important thing is: what's the significance of all of that calculation?

 

While CR's dps can get as high as 14% better than the CLS, what does that mean? Will you kill bosses 14% faster? DPS calculations are nice, but all they can really say is which is better during training, since during training there are few outside factors. In more complicated instances, I really don't think they can accurately measure the "how much", although certainly you've proved beyond a doubt which cases which weapon is superior.

 

Side-note: Can you please link me to somewhere I can read up about how you are calculating DPS and a few of the theories you've mentioned? We'd get a better discussion this way if I was as well informed as you.

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You'll be getting 5 kills/h less at a lot more places if you choose cls over rapier though, and its not like you're not able to use a rapier at bandos (idk about solo sara but who does that anyway).

 

I know I'll be less effective at a lot more places.

 

But the question is, is it really that significant? 5k/h is a made-up number. Does anyone have proof that it is that high, or even higher, and many boss locations? Because from observations and what people have been saying, I really don't think it is.

 

I'm a CR fan, 100%. But I agree with Zaaps1 here. The difference between the two is so small that it will almost never make a difference.

People should just choose whichever look you like best, epic fencer of amazement, or big-ass-bad-ass sword.

 

Foil fencing plz<3

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I'd also like to point out that any test that does not use the best possible gear is skewed in favor of the longsword.

How do you figure that since cls has better attk bonus? Better gear should benefit cls not rapier as was demonstrated with my trials with Sir Izenhime.

Because STR bonus isn't a % boost, but rather a direct increase to your max hit. Thus a berserker ring will boost your max by 10 LP on a CR as well as on a CLS. Thus, since you get 4 CLS hits for ever 5 CR hits, you get a POTENTIAL higher boost (Over time) with CR then CLS. Same for fero ring. Everytime you hit wearing it, you get +40 damage (On task in kura's DG of course). So hitting 12 times with CR will boost your bonus damage more then the 8 hits with the CLS. That is assuming approximate accuracy. With x pots/defender/slay helm/ardy cape or fire cape/turmoil, the CR is insanely accurate.

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[hide=Drops]Araxxor Eye x1 Leg pieces x2
GWD: 5000 Addy bar Steam B Staff x3 Z Spear x6 Sara. Hilt x2 Bandos Hilt x2 (LS, Solo)SS x6 (1 LS)
Tormented Demons: Shard x6 Slice x5 Claws x9 Limbs x3
DKS: Archer x21 Warrior x31 Berserker x30 Axe x51[/hide]

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I want to mention that a lot of the "efficiency [bleep]" in this thread who only say "efficiency efficiency" on everything and preach the same thing on every little thing (including this thread) can't possibly have experience with everything. A lot of you saying CR > CLS don't have higher than 60 dungeoneering. Yeah, just cause the numbers roll one way doesn't make it true. Its about (pseudo)RANDOM numbers. Just because something SHOULD outperform something else in a given situation doesn't mean it will. Just because certain conditions will make one better than the other doesn't mean it will.

 

That being said, they all have their purpose, its called get what you want because you want it, not because everyone else says to get it. Its like training methods. "Oh, AZs are good XP cause everyone said so". "Oh, Rapier is best because these three users who haven't touched one know everything" -.-

 

/rant

 

 

Oh, so we should drop our chaotic weapons and go get fulll DH because it has the potential to outpeform every chaotic weapon?

 

Oh, so we should drop our chaotic longswords and get a rapier cause it has the potential to outperform the longsword? POTENTIAL =/= FACT

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The corp beast, is, well, just a corp beast. He doesnt even have any friends.

[spoiler=Other Quotes]tbh idk why this makes me laugh so hard

All DFS threads turn into efficiency flame wars >.>

>OP asks "why use DFS?"

>everyone says "there is no reason"

>someone says "stop bashing people who use DFS, efficiency troll ass clown"

>thread is now a flame fest

 

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O wait lets reply to the sarcastic post with something about potential in it while completely ignoring previous posts with facts (especially morionic's since he even has a formula - wait the formula is wrong? go test it yourself then instead of just arguing based on preferance).

Or nvm me I dont have a cls.

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The difference of CLS and CR for training/slayer? 35k slayer xp an hour with whip/CLS, 40k slayer xp an hour with CR, that's a difference of more than 30 abyssal demons EVERY hour. That is true for all kurdal dungeon slayer monsters apart from irons, steels and funnily, gargoyles. The difference on all of the dragons is even more significant and the difference on dark beasts is somewhat lower.

 

Also, the difference between rapier and longsword on bandos is around one kill per hour(~5%), and the difference of maul vs cls is also around 5%(in favor of maul), and before you start telling me about the loss of shield, most people use defender, and funnily enough, defender has negative range and mage defence, and as you'll be praying melee 100% of the time, the differance of 18 crush def on the minion is slight at best. As far as i know, there is no significant advantage of using divine on solo bandos, and even then you'd need a 2b+ street price shield for the CLS to be best.

First to 99 Farming on 27. September, 2005.

First to 3766 Port Score on 20. March, 2014.

First to 4664 Port Score on 2. March, 2015.

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That's not really what I meant. I know about DPS and all, but there's what the important thing is: what's the significance of all of that calculation?

 

While CR's dps can get as high as 14% better than the CLS, what does that mean? Will you kill bosses 14% faster? DPS calculations are nice, but all they can really say is which is better during training, since during training there are few outside factors. In more complicated instances, I really don't think they can accurately measure the "how much", although certainly you've proved beyond a doubt which cases which weapon is superior.

by that you mean stuff like:

 

idling time?

overkill loss?

Instances were monsters are killed in a single hit?

 

Side-note: Can you please link me to somewhere I can read up about how you are calculating DPS and a few of the theories you've mentioned? We'd get a better discussion this way if I was as well informed as you.

 

DPS thread. I calculate DPS based around some of the theories developed in this thread.

Although my calculator is ultimately not 100% the same as what is proposed in here.

http://forum.tip.it/topic/270004-dps-calculator-project/page__pid__4360286#entry4360286

 

I'm more than happy to give out the DPS equation that I personally use if you want.

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I'll see after I've finished reading.

 

What I meant by more complicated factors are stuff like:

 

-Waiting for respawns, which lessens any advantage one has over the other

-Getting there, similar effect

-Killing non-main target bosses, which is the same, again. I meant stuff like Spinolyps, Generals, barrows tunnel monsters for KC, etc.

-The fact that the CLS *can* do in 1 hit what the CR does in 2. For example, if a monster has 300 more LP, and CLS can hit over 300, but CR can't, it would take CLS less time because you'd save a round of combat

 

Basically, bosses are more complicated that just training, so the results you get from DPS would be skewed somewhat so that it's not reliably accurate anymore, thus warranting some type of experimentation outside of the mathematical.

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I'll see after I've finished reading.

 

What I meant by more complicated factors are stuff like:

 

-Waiting for respawns, which lessens any advantage one has over the other

-Getting there, similar effect

-Killing non-main target bosses, which is the same, again. I meant stuff like Spinolyps, Generals, barrows tunnel monsters for KC, etc.

-The fact that the CLS *can* do in 1 hit what the CR does in 2. For example, if a monster has 300 more LP, and CLS can hit over 300, but CR can't, it would take CLS less time because you'd save a round of combat

Basically, bosses are more complicated that just training, so the results you get from DPS would be skewed somewhat so that it's not reliably accurate anymore, thus warranting some type of experimentation outside of the mathematical.

What do you mean by that? The max hit of CLS is only about 8,5% higher than the max hit of rapier, so finding a situation where a monster has exactly 700 lp left and the CLS would hit that much and rapier wouldn't is EXTREMELY rare.

What you should consider, instead, is deadly hits. When a monster has less lp left than your max hit your dps will undoubtedly drop because of it, but the fact that CLS can hit higher and hits slower means you will encounter this problem more often(particularly for slayer, but in general as well) and if you do encounter it you will lose part of a 3 second DPS, not 2,4 second DPS. For slayer, this makes a big difference for whip vs. cls and makes whip much better for monsters like greater demons, spiritual mages, and also gives rapier an advantage over cls. For bandos, rapier is MUCH better for killing the generals and on a fast spawn server can get you a few more kc just because of that. Rapier is also much better for kc, snylops and even barrows.

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First to 3766 Port Score on 20. March, 2014.

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First off, I was just listing random examples that I could think of. In hindsight, you're right, that's a terrible one.

 

The point I'm trying to make is completely removed from slayer and other such "training" locations, where there is little consideration for danger. Exceptions are, of course, tasks like Mithril Dragons, and other psuedo-bosses that are occasionally assigned.

 

Oh, and the focus is solely on the boss that gives the main drops. So, for example, CR is better at killing Spinos than CLS, you aren't kill Spinos for drops. Even if it's faster, it's still wasted time not killing a boss. Same goes for Barrows. It's true that getting a higher KC gets you better chances at drops such as bolt racks, etc., but you don't do barrows for blood runes, death runes, and 523gp coin drops. You do it for stuff like Karil's Top and Dharok's Helm. Therefore, even though you get profit, time spent getting kc is removed from the system focusing on the main drops.

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Errm...i would understand your disagreement but....rapier is also MUCH better for all barrows brothers(they don't actually have great defense, as it turns out) AND supreme. Well, ok, i agree that you'd be better using longsword on prime and rex, so theres another two monsters that CLS is likely better for :thumbsup:

 

Also, you are not actually helping out the CLS'es case with bringing kc/waiting/minions into the discussion because:

 

a) Rapier is better for them(well, they are equally good for waiting)

 

b) It lessens the advantage CLS has over Rapier(as you will be in combat less of the time)

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Alright, I guess I did. But that's not the point.

 

The point is that DPS numbers can't accurately determine how much better one weapon is over another at bosses because there are just so many complicating issues, regardless of which way those issues work out.

 

Therefore, you have to use real tests.

 

While they are no where near controlled, from what I've heard in this thread alone proves that, since the argument for CR or CLS can go both ways for many bosses, their effectiveness can't be significantly different enough to say "CLS is totally worthless because CR is ___% better at ___".

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All of the effects you described more or less level the playing field for the higher level bosses(bandos, sara, zammy) as any advantage one weapon has over another will be used for less time every hour. For barrows, mithril dragons and DKS however, this doesn't apply as much(well for DKS supreme will take 2/7 of the time), for TD's it's also quite irrelevant(only banking/luring takes time). So overall, what you are saying is that for things that the CLS is better for, it isn't as much better as we are claiming it to be... but i do understand what you mean(for example, if you kill 20 graar every hour, only 30 minutes of that hour will be used on actually killing it, so if we assume 5% more DPS= 1 more kill an hour, it's actually 0,5 more kills every hour).

First to 99 Farming on 27. September, 2005.

First to 3766 Port Score on 20. March, 2014.

First to 4664 Port Score on 2. March, 2015.

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I want to mention that a lot of the "efficiency [bleep]" in this thread who only say "efficiency efficiency" on everything and preach the same thing on every little thing (including this thread) can't possibly have experience with everything. A lot of you saying CR > CLS don't have higher than 60 dungeoneering. Yeah, just cause the numbers roll one way doesn't make it true. Its about (pseudo)RANDOM numbers. Just because something SHOULD outperform something else in a given situation doesn't mean it will. Just because certain conditions will make one better than the other doesn't mean it will.

 

That being said, they all have their purpose, its called get what you want because you want it, not because everyone else says to get it. Its like training methods. "Oh, AZs are good XP cause everyone said so". "Oh, Rapier is best because these three users who haven't touched one know everything" -.-

 

/rant

 

 

Oh, so we should drop our chaotic weapons and go get fulll DH because it has the potential to outpeform every chaotic weapon?

 

Oh, so we should drop our chaotic longswords and get a rapier cause it has the potential to outperform the longsword? POTENTIAL =/= FACT

You really don't understand this difference? This is the same reason people buy strength boosting gear, because of the POTENTIAL to boost their max. It doesn't mean every hit will be higher then without said strength boosting armor, but rather that you have the possibility of higher DPS (Which is in actuality a reality). In other words, the chance of hitting higher every time averages out to BECOME a higher DPS and max hit. I fail to see how anyone with any knowledge of basic RS combat can fail to understand this.

 

As well, only an absolute IDIOT would say that "If you don't have it you can't judge it." With a basic knowledge of RS combat, and how combat works, you can "run the numbers". You don't HAVE to train strength with both a SS and D scimmy+Defender to be able to figure out which is the better training weapon. It is quite simple really.

 

And yes, I can categorically say that CR>CLS for MOST slayer tasks (Even more so when turmoiling, x pots, etc) and CLS is better at bandos. Do I have a CLS, no. Do I have a CR, yes. As a matter of fact, I considered getting a CLS very much. However, considering I have optimal slayer gear (imbued rings, etc) the small boosts benefit the CR more then the CLS. A serker (I) raisies the max hit by around 20. Thus hitting 100 times with the CR means I can hit a theoretical 2000 LP more then hitting 80 times with the CLS for a 1600 LP extra damage. Of course, one could say that you don't ALWAYS hit the extra 20 with the CR, that is true. However, the same is true for the CLS. The deciding factor then becomes accuracy, which, as I explained before, is insanely high with the CR, especially when factoring in the smaller boosts (X pots, turmoil, slayer helm, rings, defender, etc).

 

In other words, the potential bonuses to the CR will, over time, become a fact, a testable fact. True, you may be able to 2 hit an abby demon, but can you do it consistently?

 

There also comes in another point, "wasted" damage. If you often hit 635-565 on an abby demon, you still need a 3rd hit to kill said demon. Thus, you "waste" any extra damage not needed to KO. The same can be said of a faster, less strength weapon, however, less time is lost. This is why that using DH+ a whip/scimitar to finish off low HP monkies can so dramatically increase your Xp/hr. (Up to 15k allegedly)

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[hide=Drops]Araxxor Eye x1 Leg pieces x2
GWD: 5000 Addy bar Steam B Staff x3 Z Spear x6 Sara. Hilt x2 Bandos Hilt x2 (LS, Solo)SS x6 (1 LS)
Tormented Demons: Shard x6 Slice x5 Claws x9 Limbs x3
DKS: Archer x21 Warrior x31 Berserker x30 Axe x51[/hide]

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All of the effects you described more or less level the playing field for the higher level bosses(bandos, sara, zammy) as any advantage one weapon has over another will be used for less time every hour. For barrows, mithril dragons and DKS however, this doesn't apply as much(well for DKS supreme will take 2/7 of the time), for TD's it's also quite irrelevant(only banking/luring takes time). So overall, what you are saying is that for things that the CLS is better for, it isn't as much better as we are claiming it to be... but i do understand what you mean(for example, if you kill 20 graar every hour, only 30 minutes of that hour will be used on actually killing it, so if we assume 5% more DPS= 1 more kill an hour, it's actually 0,5 more kills every hour).

 

Exactly, thanks for understanding it. I know something I'm not exactly clear when I post :x

 

Although it's a little more than that, that's the essence of it.

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im 97 str and ive personaly hit over 700s with rapier

 

i still have my shield questions

 

1. does it tell you the ammount it reduces, or does it just say "it reduces dmg" im aware eagle may be glitche datm

 

2. does it always reduce 20% or is it ranodmly 1-20%

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All I know about eagle eye (Except from what the KB/RS wiki/TIF have to say) is when fighting someone wearing it, I was told in my chatbox that they reduced damage by 13, 18, and 18 damage respectively, against my rapier. So 49 damage out of their 990, while my divine would have soaked up 297 damage.

Stonewall337.png
[hide=Drops]Araxxor Eye x1 Leg pieces x2
GWD: 5000 Addy bar Steam B Staff x3 Z Spear x6 Sara. Hilt x2 Bandos Hilt x2 (LS, Solo)SS x6 (1 LS)
Tormented Demons: Shard x6 Slice x5 Claws x9 Limbs x3
DKS: Archer x21 Warrior x31 Berserker x30 Axe x51[/hide]

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