Chaotic Rapier vs Longsword

[Zaaps1]

lol

 

A wise man once said:

 

You know you are winning an argument when your opponent has run out of counter arguments and resorts to name calling and threats of violence.

 

To be fair, I never did. But you seem to be ignoring the real issue, the flaw in your argument is your ignorance to speed.

[Zaaps1]

Oops, wow bad post coding, sorry. I cant edit that atm because Im on my phone.

[Obtaurian]

FYI, Squareroot is almost 99 dungeoneering and has owned both a CLS and a rapier, so clearly his experience far exceeds yours amirite.

His exp in pking does not exceed mine :blink:

 

But his experience with chaotic weapons does, so according to YOUR logic, his opinion (which isn't opinion, but let's call it that for your sake) holds more weight than yours.

[Renshae]

All emotion aside, someone needs to do a CLS vs Rapier comparison, in Duel areana. You need to do multiple scenarios and keep things like prayer, style, equpment, potions etc controlled and equal.

 

Possible scenarios.

 

No arm

 

Max melee gear

 

Both on aggressive.

 

Both on accurate.

 

Both on defensive

 

Both on extremes

 

Both on supers.

 

etc...

 

You would also have to do multiple runs on the same scenarios to overcome "good luck" on the random generators.

 

Any "opinions" not based upon controlled scientific trials are just that, opinions subject to the individual's personal biases, presuppositons etc...

 

Show me a vid of at least 10 trials each of the above scenarios where the rapier powns the cls at least 60% of the time and I just might get me a rapier next time.

 

Although, that would only prove that rapier is superier in pvp not pvm...that would have to be another trial...and not sure how you would control the variables in that instance.

[xpx]

FYI, Squareroot is almost 99 dungeoneering and has owned both a CLS and a rapier, so clearly his experience far exceeds yours amirite.

His exp in pking does not exceed mine :blink:

And to show how great a pker you are you show us a BH rank and a random picture...way to go. Just as a heads up, the best pkers to ever play this game never gained any BH rank. What you call pking is a mere shadow of what it once was.

 

As for comparing rapier and long in duel arena, what would that actually prove? I thought you were supposed to know something about pking, atleast the part that you never, ever use just one style, and in that regard, for pking atleast, the rapier and longsword have very different applications. Also it must be noted that it's easier to ko with a rapier due to the fact that for a turn, you can shark-brew-shark for s longsword hit, but only shark-brew for a rapier hit, and that is very significant.

 

As for pvm, you have provided us with no facts, and it just seems that you are stubborn that you are wasting 100k an hour using the longsword instead of a whip for slayer, and the only places where at maxed stats/ovl/turm a cls is better than rapier are bandos and sara gwd.

[Andy]

Renshae is either a complete troll, or extremely ignorant.

Either way, he's wrong.

[Renshae]

FYI, Squareroot is almost 99 dungeoneering and has owned both a CLS and a rapier, so clearly his experience far exceeds yours amirite.

His exp in pking does not exceed mine :blink:

And to show how great a pker you are you show us a BH rank and a random picture...way to go. Just as a heads up, the best pkers to ever play this game never gained any BH rank. What you call pking is a mere shadow of what it once was.

 

As for comparing rapier and long in duel arena, what would that actually prove? I thought you were supposed to know something about pking, atleast the part that you never, ever use just one style, and in that regard, for pking atleast, the rapier and longsword have very different applications. Also it must be noted that it's easier to ko with a rapier due to the fact that for a turn, you can shark-brew-shark for s longsword hit, but only shark-brew for a rapier hit, and that is very significant.

 

As for pvm, you have provided us with no facts, and it just seems that you are stubborn that you are wasting 100k an hour using the longsword instead of a whip for slayer, and the only places where at maxed stats/ovl/turm a cls is better than rapier are bandos and sara gwd.

I agree, that someone with more experience pking and switching styles would dominate in the duel arena. Which is why you would have to control such variables as attack style...Have you ever heard of "scientific method???"

[Renshae]

Renshae is either a complete troll, or extremely ignorant.

Either way, he's wrong.

ROFL!! I am dazzled by your logic...'Renshae is...a complete troll..extremely ignorant..[and] wrong."

 

Have you ever heard of the "scientific method?"

 

Scientific method refers to a body of techniques for investigating phenomena, acquiring new knowledge, or correcting and integrating previous knowledge.[1] To be termed scientific, a method of inquiry must be based on gathering observable, empirical and measurable evidence subject to specific principles of reasoning.[2] A scientific method consists of the collection of data through observation and experimentation, and the formulation and testing of hypotheses.[3]

 

Although procedures vary from one field of inquiry to another, identifiable features distinguish scientific inquiry from other methodologies of knowledge. Scientific researchers propose hypotheses as explanations of phenomena, and design experimental studies to test these hypotheses. These steps must be repeatable in order to dependably predict any future results. Theories that encompass wider domains of inquiry may bind many independently derived hypotheses together in a coherent, supportive structure. This in turn may help form new hypotheses or place groups of hypotheses into context.

 

Among other facets shared by the various fields of inquiry is the conviction that the process must be objective to reduce biased interpretations of the results. Another basic expectation is to document, archive and share all data and methodology so they are available for careful scrutiny by other scientists, thereby allowing other researchers the opportunity to verify results by attempting to reproduce them. This practice, called full disclosure, also allows statistical measures of the reliability of these data to be established.

 

Scientific Control: When an experiment is conducted for the purpose of determining the effect of a single variable of interest on a particular system, a scientific control is used to minimize the unintended influence of other variables on the same system. Such extraneous variables include researcher bias, environmental changes, and biological variation. Scientific controls ensure that data are valid, and are a vital part of the scientific method.

[Smapla]

Renshae is either a complete troll, or extremely ignorant.

Either way, he's wrong.

ROFL!! I am dazzled by your logic...'Renshae is...a complete troll..extremely ignorant..[and] wrong."

 

Have you ever heard of the "scientific method?"

 

what?

 

 

So now you want perfectly executed tests which adhere to scientific processes, yet before you wouldn't acknowledge that the rapier was faster than the longsword?

 

 

edit: i know what the scientific method is, i was questioning your use of the term to rebut cheezedude's insult towards you which took the form of a false dichotomy... which you then proceeding to incorrectly rephrase

[Renshae]

Renshae is either a complete troll, or extremely ignorant.

Either way, he's wrong.

ROFL!! I am dazzled by your logic...'Renshae is...a complete troll..extremely ignorant..[and] wrong."

 

Have you ever heard of the "scientific method?"

 

what?

 

 

So now you want perfectly executed tests which adhere to scientific processes, yet before you wouldn't acknowledge that the rapier was faster than the longsword?

There has been no empirical data submitted on the speed of the two weapons. I have acknowledged that the rapier is a little faster than the cls. However, I have postulated that the increase in speed is not sufficient to overcome the higher strength and attack bonuses of the cls.

 

The above controlled trials would answer that question. "Does the Chaotic Rapier's speed make up for it's deficiencies in attack and strength in comparison to the Chaotic Longsword, enough that it can inflict more damage per unit of time than the Chaotic Longsword?"

[Smapla]

This is an interesting way to get out of an argument. propose so many experiments that to carry them out would take a long enough time that people would forget about the argument, then leave before people remember that your original assertions were utter bull. all while claiming it's good science, and thus necessity

 

 

he's using big words too now, i'm out

[Andy]

http://www.wikihow.com/Sound-Intelligent

How to sound intelligent: Part 11.

"Do not forget, if you find yourself unable to articulate cohesive thoughts you shouldn't try and make yourself seem smart because smart people will just laugh at your face and then you'll be considered an idiot by people."

[Renshae]

This is an interesting way to get out of an argument. propose so many experiments that to carry them out would take a long enough time that people would forget about the argument, then leave before people remember that your original assertions were utter bull. all while claiming it's good science, and thus necessity

 

 

he's using big words too now, i'm out

Yes, empirical proof is a VERY interesting way to end a debate. dee dee deeeee

[Obtaurian]

Could a mod please IP ban this guy before this gets out of hand? I don't even feel compelled to argue with him.

 

Hey Renshae, read the thread from page one. You'll be proven wrong many times over.

[Lep]

FYI, Squareroot is almost 99 dungeoneering and has owned both a CLS and a rapier, so clearly his experience far exceeds yours amirite.

His exp in pking does not exceed mine :blink:

 

Your "rank" (which doesn't even mean anything for pking nowadays) isn't even high or impressive. There's over 10,000 people better than you, they probably all have a rapier. :lol:

 

And if we're going by the fact that your better than all of these people because your exp in pking is higher, then I must be better at strength, attack, defense and hitpoints than you because I have more exp than you. So therefore, you can never kill me because I can live better than you can. :grin:

[PereGrin]

Renshae is either a complete troll, or extremely ignorant.

Either way, he's wrong.

ROFL!! I am dazzled by your logic...'Renshae is...a complete troll..extremely ignorant..[and] wrong."

 

Have you ever heard of the "scientific method?"

 

what?

 

 

So now you want perfectly executed tests which adhere to scientific processes, yet before you wouldn't acknowledge that the rapier was faster than the longsword?

There has been no empirical data submitted on the speed of the two weapons. I have acknowledged that the rapier is a little faster than the cls. However, I have postulated that the increase in speed is not sufficient to overcome the higher strength and attack bonuses of the cls.

 

The above controlled trials would answer that question. "Does the Chaotic Rapier's speed make up for it's deficiencies in attack and strength in comparison to the Chaotic Longsword, enough that it can inflict more damage per unit of time than the Chaotic Longsword?"

As long as we are using big words for no apparent reason......

 

Supercalifragilisticexpialidocious, and Antidisestablishmentarianism. What?

 

[hide]

Or you could simply say that the C Rapier is 4/5 the speed of the CLS. Therefore, if you multiply the stats of the C Rapier by 5/4, you will get a weapon with the same DPS as the C Rapier, but at longsword speed. Then it is very easy to compare the 2.

 

C Rapier = +94 Stab, +78 Slash, +101 Strength

 

CLS = +107 Stab, +124 Slash, +120 Strength

 

(C Rapier) x (5/4) = +117.5 Stab, +97.5 Slash, +126.25 Strength

 

Basically, the winners are:

 

Stab: C Rapier (+9.8% over CLS)

 

Slash: CLS (+21.4% over C Rapier)

 

Strength: C Rapier (5.2% over CLS)

 

 

I only compared the weapons directly, as the OP did. Adding in Bandos, fury, barrows gloves, dragon boots, neitz, and rune defender changes things slightly.

 

(C Rapier) x (5/4) = +170 Stab, +148.75 Slash, +173.75 Strength

 

CLS = +149 Stab, +165 Slash, +158 Strength

 

The winners are as follows:

 

Stab: C Rapier (14% over CLS)

 

Slash: CLS (10.9% over C Rapier)

 

Strength: C Rapier (10% over CLS)

 

[/hide]

 

If you are stabing, use the Rapier. If you are slashing, use the CLS. If you are doing slayer, where 90% of monsters are low defense with no particular weakness, and accuracy bonuses are minimal, the Rapier will do more damage over a set period of time then the Longsword will. More damage in the same amount of time is the same thing as more monsters killed, or more experience gained.

[ghjkl]

Gl koing me with long without venge, every time you hit over 400 I'll just eat 2 times.

[Assume Nothing]

Gl koing me with long without venge, every time you hit over 400 I'll just eat 2 times.

Add some brews and Unicorn too

[crashNburn]

Renshae is either a complete troll, or extremely ignorant.

Either way, he's wrong.

ROFL!! I am dazzled by your logic...'Renshae is...a complete troll..extremely ignorant..[and] wrong."

 

Have you ever heard of the "scientific method?"

 

Scientific method refers to a body of techniques for investigating phenomena, acquiring new knowledge, or correcting and integrating previous knowledge.[1] To be termed scientific, a method of inquiry must be based on gathering observable, empirical and measurable evidence subject to specific principles of reasoning.[2] A scientific method consists of the collection of data through observation and experimentation, and the formulation and testing of hypotheses.[3]

 

Although procedures vary from one field of inquiry to another, identifiable features distinguish scientific inquiry from other methodologies of knowledge. Scientific researchers propose hypotheses as explanations of phenomena, and design experimental studies to test these hypotheses. These steps must be repeatable in order to dependably predict any future results. Theories that encompass wider domains of inquiry may bind many independently derived hypotheses together in a coherent, supportive structure. This in turn may help form new hypotheses or place groups of hypotheses into context.

 

Among other facets shared by the various fields of inquiry is the conviction that the process must be objective to reduce biased interpretations of the results. Another basic expectation is to document, archive and share all data and methodology so they are available for careful scrutiny by other scientists, thereby allowing other researchers the opportunity to verify results by attempting to reproduce them. This practice, called full disclosure, also allows statistical measures of the reliability of these data to be established.

 

Scientific Control: When an experiment is conducted for the purpose of determining the effect of a single variable of interest on a particular system, a scientific control is used to minimize the unintended influence of other variables on the same system. Such extraneous variables include researcher bias, environmental changes, and biological variation. Scientific controls ensure that data are valid, and are a vital part of the scientific method.

 

Translation : "I'm not even trying to make these post look legitimate anymore"

[Naraku893]

Rapier is better than Longsword how is that even arguable?

[Squisher_33]

renshae "nobody knows the speeds of these weapons" "the speed of rapier doesnt make its better than how high cls hits"

 

well since uve been gone from rs for the past 4 months, rapier is 6 speed and ls is 5 speed

 

this means rapier hits 25% faster than longsword

 

longsword hits 10% higher than rapier

 

accuracy wont matter in most situatoins but on higher def monsters ls is about 10% more accurate

 

therefore rapier is better, to think someone could argue against something and have no idea about the actual numbers, im surprised as much effort as u put into this u didnt know rapier hits every 2.4 and ls hits every 3, to think uve spent the last 5 posts trying to sound smart

[Naraku893]

/thread

[xpx]

Renshae is either a complete troll, or extremely ignorant.

Either way, he's wrong.

ROFL!! I am dazzled by your logic...'Renshae is...a complete troll..extremely ignorant..[and] wrong."

 

Have you ever heard of the "scientific method?"

 

what?

 

 

So now you want perfectly executed tests which adhere to scientific processes, yet before you wouldn't acknowledge that the rapier was faster than the longsword?

There has been no empirical data submitted on the speed of the two weapons. I have acknowledged that the rapier is a little faster than the cls. However, I have postulated that the increase in speed is not sufficient to overcome the higher strength and attack bonuses of the cls.

 

The above controlled trials would answer that question. "Does the Chaotic Rapier's speed make up for it's deficiencies in attack and strength in comparison to the Chaotic Longsword, enough that it can inflict more damage per unit of time than the Chaotic Longsword?"

It is not a little faster, it's 2,4 seconds for rapier, 3 seconds for longsword, so the rapier is 25% faster than the longsword. As for damage, that is a given aswell as the longsword hits around 9% higher, with those out of the way, there is only accuracy left, and with equal accuracy, the rapier is around 15% more efficient, and that's exactly what ALOT of calculations/in game testing has proven. As for CLS being better than the rapier, it all comes down to weather 30 more accuracy is actually worth anything or not, and there really are very few places where it is worth it, and even if it is, the cls would have to hit much more accurately to actually be on par with rapier(~TD's) or beat it(bandos, sara gwd).

[Zaaps1]

tl;dr warning. Long post ahead.

 

All emotion aside, someone needs to do a CLS vs Rapier comparison, in Duel areana. You need to do multiple scenarios and keep things like prayer, style, equpment, potions etc controlled and equal.

 

[bunch of recommended tests]

 

You would also have to do multiple runs on the same scenarios to overcome "good luck" on the random generators.

 

Any "opinions" not based upon controlled scientific trials are just that, opinions subject to the individual's personal biases, presuppositons etc...

 

Show me a vid of at least 10 trials each of the above scenarios where the rapier powns the cls at least 60% of the time and I just might get me a rapier next time.

 

Wait, so let me get this straight. We need to do multiple experiment, multiple tedious experiments to get the facts? So we can't just take casual experience and use that to support our point? Thank god you didn't do that, otherwise what you've been saying would be controversial.

 

I have a cls and I live slayer. I have NEVER been out killed by a rapier. Usually I make 2 kills with my cls vs 1 kill with a rapier by my peers. From personal experience and lots and lots of slaying, rapier hits 500's-600's while CLS hits 600's-700's and that is on supers NOT extremes.

 

Wait, but isn't that NOT an extensive test like you recommended? Maybe you didn't draw a solid conclusion from that though. You're smart. I know you wouldn't just take some casual observations, draw a quick conclusion, and treat it as a fact :)

 

I'm sorry that you all wasted your 200k points on a rapier but the fact of the matter is:

 

CLS>rap>whip

 

:mellow:

 

 

Have you ever heard of the "scientific method?"

[some copy/paste explanation of what it is]

 

Right right, so let's really put our opinions aside and use pure science and raw experiments. This way, we can get a clear cut picture of how this is. Tell us then, oracle, how SHOULD we go about doing this?

 

See, unlike most of the people on here I dont just take the speculations and theories of others as fact.

 

So you are an omniscient player who takes nothing into account except facts you know to be true because you have no only tested them, but recorded them and retested them repeatedly. Science is made for people like that. You're right. We can't rely on anything other than facts. Hearsay is too often inaccurate and we cannot trust it. It's best to leave it out of the situation completely and not mention it, because it leads to wrong conclusions, yes?

 

I've never seen a rapier hit over 700. Although, I have heard that on extremes rap can hit 800 I have never seen it.

 

But isn't that a rumor what you are using? Well, perhaps I'm not being fair. After all, you probably tested the Chaotic Rapier yourself, right? You did say:

 

I have to test and try speculations and theories to verify that they are true and everything that I have stated in my post is based upon observations and fact not my frustrations and feelings of inadequacy over the fact that I chose a rapier instead of a cls.

 

So therefore you would NEVER say anything about the Rapier that you didn't test yourself.

 

Wait, but...you don't have a Rapier...

 

http://services.runescape.com/m=hiscore/hiscorepersonal.ws

 

You don't have 4m Dungeoneering Experience yet, so wouldn't that mean you only have one Chaotic weapon? Wouldn't that mean, one way or the other, you are saying something that you didn't test? Or maybe there is some strange method to test this that I don't know about. Maybe...

 

Anyone considering a rapier should try out primal rapier in dungeoneering. I have. I have used both a cls and a primal rapier. CLS owns rapier.

 

Thank GOD YOU TESTED IT!!!! You tested a CHAOTIC LONGSWORD against a PRIMAL RAPIER??? And which, sir, was better? The Longsword, of course, right? Good!! Since CLS > Primal Rapier, the CHAOTIC Rapier MUST be worse!

 

And you personally tested that? How sweet! And it was a controlled test and everything just like you said? Everything was the same? Same equipment? Same monsters? Same prayers? Same potion boosts? Same attack style? Same day of week? Same weather outside?

 

you would have to control such variables as attack style...Have you ever heard of "scientific method???"

 

"Variables such as attack style". I hope that includes the list I mentioned above, because if it didn't, wouldn't your "facts" be wrong?

 

But...wait. You DID compare it to the Chaotic Rapier, didn't you?

 

I have NEVER been out killed by a rapier. Usually I make 2 kills with my cls vs 1 kill with a rapier by my peers. From personal experience and lots and lots of slaying

 

Yes! So you DID compare it to the Rapier. You saw how your CLS performed, then you saw how your peers' CRs performed, thus it's a fantastic piece of evidence! It's controlled and everythin...wait. "Peers"? PEERS?

 

Good thing you were able to control your peers' playing styles, right? When you compared your performances, you were able to make sure they had the same gear, same potions, same levels, same boots, same ping, same hunger, same attention, same RL fatigue, same computer, same carpet, same lighting, same brand of coffee, and everything?

 

No...I don't think you can base what you're saying off your "OBSERVATIONS" from how you performed against your "PEERS", as you have absolutely no control over how they slay.

 

But everyone knows we have math to rely on. Math is a universal language. MATH SHALL NOT FAIL US!

 

Do the math...CLS is 20+ better attack, 30+ better strength, and they both hit about the same speed. The result is that you will hit around 100 LP more per hit with the CLS.

 

YES!! WE HAVE MATH!! WE HAVE NUMBERS! THIS MUST BE TRUE!

 

[hide=Quote of Lep]

Or you could simply say that the C Rapier is 4/5 the speed of the CLS. Therefore, if you multiply the stats of the C Rapier by 5/4, you will get a weapon with the same DPS as the C Rapier, but at longsword speed. Then it is very easy to compare the 2.

 

C Rapier = +94 Stab, +78 Slash, +101 Strength

 

CLS = +107 Stab, +124 Slash, +120 Strength

 

(C Rapier) x (5/4) = +117.5 Stab, +97.5 Slash, +126.25 Strength

 

Basically, the winners are:

 

Stab: C Rapier (+9.8% over CLS)

 

Slash: CLS (+21.4% over C Rapier)

 

Strength: C Rapier (5.2% over CLS)

 

 

I only compared the weapons directly, as the OP did. Adding in Bandos, fury, barrows gloves, dragon boots, neitz, and rune defender changes things slightly.

 

(C Rapier) x (5/4) = +170 Stab, +148.75 Slash, +173.75 Strength

 

CLS = +149 Stab, +165 Slash, +158 Strength

 

The winners are as follows:

 

Stab: C Rapier (14% over CLS)

 

Slash: CLS (10.9% over C Rapier)

 

Strength: C Rapier (10% over CLS)[/hide]

 

YES!! MORE MATH!! MORE NUMBERS!

 

Wait...these don't support the conclusion you drew. But...but...math doesn't...lie. How is that possible? How can we draw two different conclusions from the same numbers and the same debate? How can one math proof that's two sentences long with crude information EVER draw a different conclusion from a lengthy proof that takes far more conditions and much more data into account?

 

What are you really saying?

 

I have acknowledged that the rapier is a little faster than the cls. However, I have postulated that the increase in speed is not sufficient to overcome the higher strength and attack bonuses of the cls.

 

So this is good. You acknowledge that there is at least some grounds for debate. By admitting that the CR IS noticeably quicker than the CLS, you admit that you CAN argue that the speed makes up for it. You use this basis to propose the true question.

 

The above controlled trials would answer that question. "Does the Chaotic Rapier's speed make up for it's deficiencies in attack and strength in comparison to the Chaotic Longsword, enough that it can inflict more damage per unit of time than the Chaotic Longsword?"

 

That being the question. Therefore, you admit that the CR is faster, and that since it is faster PERHAPS it is better during many situations, it just requires more testing to confirm or disprove this assumption. And these tests have to be lengthy, yes? Not just a few observations of you at bandos and when you managed to outslay a few other people are Dust Devils? And they have to be controlled tests, yes? Not against any random guy you see with a CR at the same training place? Not a test with a totally unrelated circumstance in Daemonhiem?

 

Whew, I'm glad we were able to establish a common ground so we can understand each other. And only then we can determine whether the Rapier's faster speed makes it better?

 

There is no noticiable difference in speed between the two

 

Oh...thank god you cover yourself later on with this amendment, which I bet nobody saw.

 

i'm not saying that rapier is not faster than CLS. I'm saying it is not much faster. It's kinda like the difference between dlong and dscim. It is not as fast as ddarts as someone else posted here earlier. However, dds is faster than a whip. Would you rather have a dds (disregarding the spec) or a whip? Of course not, although dds is faster it does not hit nearly as high as a whip

 

First of all, that's a bad example because:

 

daggers, whips and the CR are all the same speed.

 

In addition, whip is roughly DOUBLE in accuracy AND strength vs. the DDS. But of course, this is Sparta TIF and we make good analogies here. The CLS has double the accuracy and strength of the CR, surely, otherwise we wouldn't make such a fallible analogy.

 

But, you know, logically (in RL terms) that doesn't make sense. So I'd understand if you did think that daggers were a little faster than the whip to make the comparison. Fair enough. But back to the main point. We want to know whether the CR's speed makes up for the CLS's power. Therefore, we must determine how much faster the CR is over the CLS and whether this is significant. Therefore, we know just how fast each is, right?

 

nobody knows the speeds of these weapons

 

There has been no empirical data submitted on the speed of the two weapons

 

I give up.

 

Isn't there some sort of easy way we can determine who lost this argument?

 

You know you are winning an argument when your opponent has run out of counter arguments and resorts to name calling and threats of violence.

 

Is that how we know who is winning?

 

"you are extremely delusional"

 

"I'm guessing a lot of you are the same type of people that also swear that there is no such thing as Primal Chain eventhough I've had one have know 5 other people that have had one."

 

"Are you illiterate or jsut have a learning disability?"

 

"dee dee deeeee"

 

Right, sorry if I seem harsh. But I hope I've exposed the fact that you are being rather hypocritical, have no solid evidence whatsoever, and expect us to believe your point of view when you can neither argue for yours nor against ours.

[Naraku893]

People still aruging about this l0l

 

Rapier>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>cls.