Efficiency

[Vulxai]

Jr, your not showing much maturity in the matter either. Just though I'd point that out.

I'll debate a point when a point comes my way. Nothing childish about that.

 

Agreed, a debate is only a debate when there are points to go on, however, saying to let you know when they want to have an adult debate insinuate's they are minor children, which can be insulting, and saying they're playing adolescent tag-team can also be insulting. You could have just as easily said something along the lines of "Please point out the points you are trying to make" or something along those lines.

[PereGrin]

Sorry I'm not following you here. Would you like to enlighten me and try to have an adult debate, giving me some of your own points to answer on the posts, or you want to continue your in adolescent tag-team? Your choice.

You have my points. You refused to read them.

 

Other people have posted their views. You refused to read them.

 

I posted quotes from other people, including yourself, that summarize what everyone has said. You have yet to read them.

 

The thing these all have in common that you haven't read something.

 

We cannot have an adult debate if you continue to ignore any posts but yours, and continue to call names.

[Guest jrhairychest]

Sorry I'm not following you here. Would you like to enlighten me and try to have an adult debate, giving me some of your own points to answer on the posts, or you want to continue your in adolescent tag-team? Your choice.

You have my points. You refused to read them.

 

Other people have posted their views. You refused to read them.

 

I posted quotes from other people, including yourself, that summarize what everyone has said. You have yet to read them.

 

The thing these all have in common that you haven't read something.

 

We cannot have an adult debate if you continue to ignore any posts but yours, and continue to call names.

If this was true all my posts from last night would have been deleted. They weren't. Yours were. Please feel free to provide evidence of me name calling, but, apply this fairly and ensure that you dig up the name calling from the other posts directed towards me. Should be very enlightening.

 

I read other peoples views, and guess what....with some I disagree. Something you're not used to as well as your crew currently doing the rounds on the tipit times on this board by trying to nit-pick the author. Now, are you going to debate or put another 10 posts on like last night titled "Don't talk to JHC", which no-one bothered to pay attention to.

[stonewall337]

Part of the problem, it would seem, is that efficiency is quite dynamic. It is both a means to an end, and an end unto itself. For people like zarfot, I'd assume, trying to maximize efficiency is part of the fun. For others, such as myself, sometimes I'm efficient to gain a goal earlier, with less time/cash spent, and other times it is because I simply ENJOY being efficient, because being inefficient is far more boring.

[Vulxai]

I'm just going to put it out there...I'm probably the most inefficient player ever, I mean, I've gained maybe 40 levels since ...may? But I still enjoy it...I roam around, do whatever I feel like at the time.

[stonewall337]

Vulaxi, that is your prerogative. If that is "fun" for you, do so.

[Guest jrhairychest]

Agreed, a debate is only a debate when there are points to go on, however, saying to let you know when they want to have an adult debate insinuate's they are minor children, which can be insulting, and saying they're playing adolescent tag-team can also be insulting. You could have just as easily said something along the lines of "Please point out the points you are trying to make" or something along those lines.

 

That would be good under normal circumstances. However, you will have seen that being all nicey nicey doesn't always work if you check the out the Tipit times. Tried that, it didn't work. Sometimes being a little stricter or ignoring them completely is the only thing some understand.

[Assume Nothing]

The people on this thread are very uneducated about efficiency.

 

Efficiency is nothing about grinding your ass off for 20 hours straight, trying to squeeze as much xp in that time possible. The correct term for that is 'no lifing'.

 

Efficiency, is a term, that factors in fun (impossible to do on a spreadsheet, however), effort, time, experience/profit, stats and cost. The general aim is to minimize the time spent reaching your goals (minimizing inputs, and increasing outputs basically), whilst keeping the gameplay fun.

 

Some argue that efficient playing is -not- fun. This is simply not true, because you can be efficient and have fun at the same time. (Such as training Slayer with Turmoil, which is efficient because it speeds up the experience gaining, and fun because hitting higher is in general, enjoyable). In fact, being efficient is in general, 'fun', because people want to maximise their xp/income per hour. The only time when being efficient isn't fun is where there is little reward for putting alot more effort, such as gaining an extra 5k xp/h in Rc but using much more attention, which wears people out faster. (In a technical sense, it isn't really efficient if you're putting alot more effort in)

 

Efficiency is always relative to your own, personal goals.

 

When people post in H&A, it is assumed that fun won't be factored in (since asking for the 'best' option often means going after the best gp/xp, or the best xp/h).

 

On a related note, claiming that linking Independent skills is more efficient than not, is both silly and irrational. It's much more efficient to obtain raw materials through trading than obtaining them through resource skills, because it only takes 10 seconds for a purchase as opposed to many hours of obtaining said material. (Given that the price of the item is low, and gathering takes a long time, such as Mort Myre Fungi for Herblore or Adamantite Ore for Smithing)

 

As different players value time differently, there is no universal way to say 'This is the most efficient method of training for all players'. Some value time at 0gp, such as myself, because I usually hang around talking, but some people value their time at 4m/h, because they enjoy bosshunting and can actually make that much, per hour.

 

To compare efficiency, (quote taken from the RS Wiki page);

 

One way to compare two methods for training a skill is by using the equation:

 

E = (V - P)/X

 

where:

 

E is efficiency rating, with a lower value indicating a more efficient method.

V is your value of time per hour (often this is the profit per hour you could be making if you were using your time making money instead, but also may include the value of experience- for example, if Graahk runecrafting at 91+ runecrafting is 900k profit per hour, someone with 91+ runecrafting should value their time at least 900k per hour, but also may wish to add on some additional amount to take into consideration runecrafting experience gained.)

P is the profit per hour of the method being considered.

X is the experience per hour of the method being considered.

When using this equation, only methods that give experience in one skill can be used. Methods that give experience in multiple skills can only be used if only one type of experience is being considered- but then the extra experience in other skills would give the method an edge over methods that only give experience in one skill, so the equation would not be as effective.

 

The equation also cannot be used to compare methods to train different skills; it can only be used to compare methods to train one skill.

 

Values used in the equation should either be used in full, or all multiplied or divided by some constant. In practice the easiest way to use the equation is to express experience, profit, and value of time in terms of "k's" (thousands) of coins or experience per hour. Essentially the k can be ignored then.

 

A method that costs money has a negative profit per hour.

 

One last thing: Posting that you cannot understand something doesn't make the subject any less valid. Name calling doesn't benefit you either. Seeing as no poster could prove who's posts got removed, it's best to avoid the subject.

[Jehosaphat]

Agreed, a debate is only a debate when there are points to go on, however, saying to let you know when they want to have an adult debate insinuate's they are minor children, which can be insulting, and saying they're playing adolescent tag-team can also be insulting. You could have just as easily said something along the lines of "Please point out the points you are trying to make" or something along those lines.

 

That would be good under normal circumstances. However, you will have seen that being all nicey nicey doesn't always work if you check the out the Tipit times. Tried that, it didn't work. Sometimes being a little stricter or ignoring them completely is the only thing some understand.

Translation: I ignored your arguments and insulted you because I want you to "grow up". :rolleyes:

[SixFootOne]

Sorry I'm not following you here. Would you like to enlighten me and try to have an adult debate, giving me some of your own points to answer on the posts, or you want to continue your in adolescent tag-team? Your choice.

You have my points. You refused to read them.

 

Other people have posted their views. You refused to read them.

 

I posted quotes from other people, including yourself, that summarize what everyone has said. You have yet to read them.

 

The thing these all have in common that you haven't read something.

 

We cannot have an adult debate if you continue to ignore any posts but yours, and continue to call names.

 

If this was true all my posts from last night would have been deleted.

 

 

Well you are making the assumption that we are in a perfect world with perfect moderators that pay attention to every detail, make no mistakes what soever. Yes, sometimes perfectly good moderators make mistakes and don't' take necessary action against those who deserve it, and sometimes perfectly good posts get hidden. Honestly grimy bunyip's posts were more relevant than mine were yet mine didn't' get hidden, so don't use that as an excuse.

 

 

They weren't. Yours were.

 

 

Actually grimy bunyips posts were deleted.

 

Please feel free to provide evidence of me name calling, but, apply this fairly and ensure that you dig up the name calling from the other posts directed towards me.

People insulted you because you refuse to read posts, then you say things like, your point?

 

I read other peoples views, and guess what....with some I disagree.

 

 

Actually several people posted with legitimate augments, in which you ignored or again asked what their point was. If you read what they said you would see the point. Because you don't even make an effort to understand what they are saying people won't bother to put up a legitimate argument with you. Don't try and use the excuse that you are waiting for their point. Read the post, and make an interpenetration and reply to it. Don't sit there and act you like you don't understand it. That's why people target you, insult you, and have no patience for you.

[stonewall337]

The people on this thread are very uneducated about efficiency.

 

Efficiency is nothing about grinding your ass off for 20 hours straight, trying to squeeze as much xp in that time possible. The correct term for that is 'no lifing'.

 

Efficiency, is a term, that factors in fun (impossible to do on a spreadsheet, however), effort, time, experience/profit, stats and cost. The general aim is to minimize the time spent reaching your goals, whilst keeping the gameplay fun.

 

Some argue that efficient playing is -not- fun. This is simply not true, because you can be efficient and have fun at the same time. (Such as training Slayer with Turmoil, which is efficient because it speeds up the experience gaining, and fun because hitting higher is in general, enjoyable). In fact, being efficient is in general, 'fun', because people want to maximise their xp/income per hour. The only time when being efficient isn't fun is where there is little reward for putting alot more effort, such as gaining an extra 5k xp/h in Rc but using much more attention, which wears people out faster.

 

Efficiency is always relative to your own, personal goals.

 

When people post in H&A, it is assumed that fun won't be factored in (since asking for the 'best' option often means going after the best gp/xp, or the best xp/h).

 

However, claiming that linking Independent skills is more efficient than not, is simply false, and stupid. It is much more efficient to obtain raw materials through trading than obtaining them through resource skills, because it only takes 10 seconds for a purchase as opposed to many hours of obtaining said material. (Given that the price of the item is low, and gathering takes a long time, such as Mort Myre Fungi for Herblore or Adamantite Ore for Smithing)

 

Because different players value time differently, there is no universal way to say 'This is the most efficient method of training for all players'. Some value time at 0gp, such as myself, because I usually hang around talking, but some people value their time at 4m/h, because they enjoy bosshunting and can actually make that much, per hour.

 

To compare efficiency, (quote taken from the RS Wiki page);

 

One way to compare two methods for training a skill is by using the equation:

 

E = (V - P)/X

 

where:

 

E is efficiency rating, with a lower value indicating a more efficient method.

V is your value of time per hour (often this is the profit per hour you could be making if you were using your time making money instead, but also may include the value of experience- for example, if Graahk runecrafting at 91+ runecrafting is 900k profit per hour, someone with 91+ runecrafting should value their time at least 900k per hour, but also may wish to add on some additional amount to take into consideration runecrafting experience gained.)

P is the profit per hour of the method being considered.

X is the experience per hour of the method being considered.

When using this equation, only methods that give experience in one skill can be used. Methods that give experience in multiple skills can only be used if only one type of experience is being considered- but then the extra experience in other skills would give the method an edge over methods that only give experience in one skill, so the equation would not be as effective.

 

The equation also cannot be used to compare methods to train different skills; it can only be used to compare methods to train one skill.

 

Values used in the equation should either be used in full, or all multiplied or divided by some constant. In practice the easiest way to use the equation is to express experience, profit, and value of time in terms of "k's" (thousands) of coins or experience per hour. Essentially the k can be ignored then.

 

A method that costs money has a negative profit per hour.

 

One last thing; Posting that you cannot understand something doesn't make you look smart. Nor does name-calling. Seeing as no one can prove who's posts got removed, it's best to avoid that subject.

 

=D>

 

Incredibly well stated. This is EXACTLY my stance. Things which are boring, RC and agility, I do as fast as possible, because they are boring, but often necessary parts of the game. Things which are fun I do fast and efficient, because gaining a goal is often more fun for me then simply the actions itself.

[Vulxai]

 

When people post in H&A, it is assumed that fun won't be factored in (since asking for the 'best' option often means going after the best gp/xp, or the best xp/h).

 

Fun isn't factored in because it's impossible. Everyone finds different things fun, so you can go around saying "Well this is the most fun option to do" when someone else could easily find something else more fun to do.

[Assume Nothing]

 

When people post in H&A, it is assumed that fun won't be factored in (since asking for the 'best' option often means going after the best gp/xp, or the best xp/h).

 

Fun isn't factored in because it's impossible. Everyone finds different things fun, so you can go around saying "Well this is the most fun option to do" when someone else could easily find something else more fun to do.

 

Fun is opinion, and very hard to put on a scale, so yes, it's pretty much impossible to spreadsheet it. The best way to go about it is compare activities that are deemed fun, and efficient, and see which one is most efficient. For me, efficiency and fun have a positive correlation, because I enjoy doing things faster.

[Vulxai]

 

When people post in H&A, it is assumed that fun won't be factored in (since asking for the 'best' option often means going after the best gp/xp, or the best xp/h).

 

Fun isn't factored in because it's impossible. Everyone finds different things fun, so you can go around saying "Well this is the most fun option to do" when someone else could easily find something else more fun to do.

 

Fun is opinion, and very hard to put on a scale, so yes, it's pretty much impossible to spreadsheet it. The best way to go about it is compare activities that are deemed fun, and efficient, and see which one is most efficient. For me, efficiency and fun have a positive correlation, because I enjoy doing things faster.

 

And a lot of people have fun being efficient, I have fun doing...what's fun lol. I bought 9m in runes a few months back and used them all in Castle Wars, most people would think that's a huge waste, I didn't because I really enjoy playing Castle Wars, so it was worth it to me.

[Assume Nothing]

 

When people post in H&A, it is assumed that fun won't be factored in (since asking for the 'best' option often means going after the best gp/xp, or the best xp/h).

 

Fun isn't factored in because it's impossible. Everyone finds different things fun, so you can go around saying "Well this is the most fun option to do" when someone else could easily find something else more fun to do.

 

Fun is opinion, and very hard to put on a scale, so yes, it's pretty much impossible to spreadsheet it. The best way to go about it is compare activities that are deemed fun, and efficient, and see which one is most efficient. For me, efficiency and fun have a positive correlation, because I enjoy doing things faster.

 

And a lot of people have fun being efficient, I have fun doing...what's fun lol. I bought 9m in runes a few months back and used them all in Castle Wars, most people would think that's a huge waste, I didn't because I really enjoy playing Castle Wars, so it was worth it to me.

 

According to the freedictionary, fun means this;

 

fun [fʌn]

n

1. a source of enjoyment, amusement, diversion, etc.

2. pleasure, gaiety, or merriment

3. jest or sport (esp in the phrases in or for fun)

 

I derive pleasure from hitting higher numbers, I have less patience for slower skills, and I source my enjoyment from knowing that I'm doing something efficiently, reaching my goals faster.

[TheAncient]

as a disclaimer, i haven't really followed this thread, but in general: why can't we just stop arguing. lol. tif is so flamey now

[Guest jrhairychest]

@Ring_world

That is disgraceful...I would have worn a white beret lol. Yup, I think sometimes the players take themselves a tad too seriously. Whats your POV on self-sufficiency?

 

@SixFootOne (Edited name)

I have no need to make excuses for myself. Don’t make excuses for other people and their attitude. It’s their problem if their posts get hidden. Approx 2 pages of posts were removed with one insinuating that my post was ‘raped’ by yours, which is a pretty disgusting way of stating something. I don’t find this kind of thing acceptable but I’ve heard this type of reference made before by teenagers trying to impress their friends.

 

I’ll read posts and I’ll reply if they bring something good but if they just try to insult then I won’t reply. And didn’t my lack of replies just drive ‘em nuts last night? If you are claiming you didn’t see any insults in my direction then sorry but you’re lying. There were very few legitimate points raised last night. If what you say is true, they wouldn’t have been removed so don’t blame the forum mod for other people’s poor behaviour. I think you’ll find the same people have done a poor show on this forum elsewhere tonight. It’s the same crew time and time again who think it’s cool to try to bully anyone who disagrees with them. Pack-hunters with no balls to do things by themselves.

 

I think you’ll find if you read my posts I’ve actually supported the right for any player to play the game they want.

 

I’m also a supporter of self sufficiency. If anyone states they are efficient I ask them to justify why. If they don’t elaborate, I’ll ask again. I don’t accept ‘because I am’. Hope this clears things up so that we can debate. Throw some points at me in an acceptable manner and I’ll answer them no problem.

[Assume Nothing]

@Ring_world

That is disgraceful...I would have worn a white beret lol. Yup, I think sometimes the players take themselves a tad too seriously. Whats your POV on self-sufficiency?

 

@Stonewall

I have no need to make excuses for myself. Don’t make excuses for other people and their attitude. It’s their problem if their posts get hidden. Approx 2 pages of posts were removed with one insinuating that my post was ‘raped’ by yours, which is a pretty disgusting way of stating something. I don’t find this kind of thing acceptable but I’ve heard this type of reference made before by teenagers trying to impress their friends.

 

I’ll read posts and I’ll reply if they bring something good but if they just try to insult then I won’t reply. And didn’t my lack of replies just drive ‘em nuts last night? If you are claiming you didn’t see any insults in my direction then sorry but you’re lying. There were very few legitimate points raised last night. If what you say is true, they wouldn’t have been removed so don’t blame the forum mod for other people’s poor behaviour. I think you’ll find the same people have done a poor show on this forum elsewhere tonight. It’s the same crew time and time again who think it’s cool to try to bully anyone who disagrees with them. Pack-hunters with no balls to do things by themselves.

 

I think you’ll find if you read my posts I’ve actually supported the right for any player to play the game they want.

 

I’m also a supporter of self sufficiency. If anyone states they are efficient I ask them to justify why. If they don’t elaborate, I’ll ask again. I don’t accept ‘because I am’. Hope this clears things up so that we can debate. Throw some points at me in an acceptable manner and I’ll answer them no problem.

 

You believe self-sufficiency is fun, you believe self-sufficiency is the way the game is meant to be played. That is fine. It is, however, an opinion, a position where it can be argued against. I don't like self-sufficiency, I find it slow and tedious. I find it easier to simply make the money and buy the raw materials, and from that perspective, it is -not- more efficient to train independent skills together (although, for you, because you enjoy it, it would be more efficient).

 

Not sure what's your point about the 'deleted posts', they were deleted for a reason, and how are you going to prove which ones got deleted? The fact is, you can't.

 

What you don't seem to realise is, efficiency is relative. If it's more efficient for you, fine, it wouldn't always be more efficient for me, so don't pretend it is.

[Guest jrhairychest]

You believe self-sufficiency is fun, you believe self-sufficiency is the way the game is meant to be played. That is fine. It is, however, an opinion, a position where it can be argued against. I don't like self-sufficiency, I find it slow and tedious. I find it easier to simply make the money and buy the raw materials, and from that perspective, it is -not- more efficient to train independent skills together (although, for you, because you enjoy it, it would be true).

Correct - No argument there. Just one point - which independant skills are you referring to?

 

Not sure what's your point about the 'deleted posts', they were deleted for a reason, and how are you going to prove which ones got deleted? The fact is, you can't.

No need to. We all know what went on. Whether people ignore it is entirely up to them.

 

What you don't seem to realise is, efficiency is relative. If it's more efficient for you, fine, it wouldn't always be more efficient for me, so don't pretend it is.

On the contrary I do. People play their own game. The only thing I ask when people say 'Im efficient' is justify what you say. Simple.

[Assume Nothing]

You believe self-sufficiency is fun, you believe self-sufficiency is the way the game is meant to be played. That is fine. It is, however, an opinion, a position where it can be argued against. I don't like self-sufficiency, I find it slow and tedious. I find it easier to simply make the money and buy the raw materials, and from that perspective, it is -not- more efficient to train independent skills together (although, for you, because you enjoy it, it would be true).

Correct - No argument there. Just one point - which independant skills are you referring to?

Smithing and Mining, RuneCrafting and Mining, RuneCrafting and Magic, Fishing and Cooking, etc.

[Bladewing]

independent skills: fishing and cooking

 

regardless of what you fish, you can sell those fish and buy other fish to cook. they are independent because you cannot train them both at the same time without linearly giving up xp in the other one. the most efficient fish to cook has no dependence on what the most efficient fish to fish is.

 

dependent skills: mining and smithing

 

because you can smith gold while mining it WITHOUT giving up any mining xp, it is better to smith the gold while you mine it rather than mine gold, sell it, and buy addy bars to make platebodies with. the most efficient ore/bar to smith has dependence on what the most efficient ore to mine is.

[Assume Nothing]

independent skills: fishing and cooking

 

regardless of what you fish, you can sell those fish and buy other fish to cook. they are independent because you cannot train them both at the same time without linearly giving up xp in the other one

 

dependent skills: mining and smithing

 

because you can smith gold while mining it WITHOUT giving up any mining xp, it is better to smith the gold while you mine it rather than mine gold, sell it, and buy addy bars to make platebodies with

 

Since I don't know of that method, I would consider Smithing and Mining independent. A better example would be Slayer and Combat, you can't level slayer without gaining xp in Combat skills.

 

Edit - Yes, you can gain xp via lamps and soulwars, but that's so slow/insignificant that it's not even worth mentioning

[PereGrin]

Not sure what's your point about the 'deleted posts', they were deleted for a reason, and how are you going to prove which ones got deleted? The fact is, you can't.

No need to. We all know what went on. Whether people ignore it is entirely up to them.

 

You lost quite a few posts. Claiming that none of your posts got removed is a lie, or it is ignoring the fact that you lost quite a few posts.

 

If this was true all my posts from last night would have been deleted. They weren't. Yours were.

[Assume Nothing]

Not sure what's your point about the 'deleted posts', they were deleted for a reason, and how are you going to prove which ones got deleted? The fact is, you can't.

No need to. We all know what went on. Whether people ignore it is entirely up to them.

 

You lost quite a few posts. Claiming that none of your posts got removed is a lie, or it is ignoring the fact that you lost quite a few posts.

Let's just stop this discussion about deleted posts. It is pointless, and irrelevant.

 

On Topic; I've been looking back through the pages and an interesting point comes up.

 

Help and Advice posts. You often see people say 'Train slayer!!' whenever someone mentions they want to train combat, or want to simply earn some money. Although Slayer can be efficient for you, because you love it, others may hate it, and because it's also less xp than killing Armoured Zombies, or other training monsters, it would be 'inefficient'.

 

Edit - Another question strikes me. If you can gain 5 times more xp/h at one spot, but you dislike it, whilst you can gain 1 times the xp/h at another spot, but you like it, which one is more 'efficient'? Would you factor in fun first, or the xp first?

[Guest jrhairychest]

@Bladewing and Not_trolling

Got you. In that case Not_trolling you'd be correct. Thanks for the info on that. Never really looked at it from that perspective. :thumbup:

 

Edit

Edit - Another question strikes me. If you can gain 5 times more xp/h at one spot' date=' but you dislike it, whilst you can gain 1 times the xp/h at another spot, but you like it, which one is more 'efficient'? Would you factor in fun first, or the xp first? [/quote']

 

Hmmmm.............I'd try go for the middle ground on that one and find the most fun method at 3x the xp. Failing that I'd rather drop the xp if the 5x method wasn't to my liking.