Efficiency

[Assume Nothing]

Guys I'm the most efficient player ever. I don't use the GE, I kill goblins with and easter carrot and I use wind strike with -65 mage

 

Oh, and I shall address jrhairychest by a random girl's name from now on, hi Charlotte

[Matt_Marche]

Guys I'm the most efficient player ever. I don't use the GE, I kill goblins with a easter carrot and I use wind strike with -65 mage. Say hi to daddy.

 

Oh, and I shall address jrhairychest by a random girl's name from now on, hi Charlotte

 

This, efficiency is based on achieving the goal and not a specific player's "morals"

[Golvellius]

And since when does someone have to play every aspect of a game to be efficient. The person stated when they spent their time on rs, they did it efficiently.

 

Actually, by clown definition (stated throughout this thread and forums) you have to big monster hunt and make 4mil/gp an hour to do anything efficiently.

Examples of things that can't be done without 4mil gp/hr: slayer with choatic rapier, overloads, cannon, construction with mahogony planks and no sc hammers, and herblore leveling making unsellable extreme pots.

Unfortunately, I'm not into big monster hunting, therefore I am "Golvellius the Effective" and not "Golvellius the Efficient".

[jimmy_jim]

I have removed a number of posts from this point as they were all taking the topic off on a tangent. When posting, please keep in mind what this topic is discussing and stick with that. If someone makes an unnecessary post, don't respond to it, report it!

 

Thanks

[MstrMonopoly]

Golvellius clearly has fun playing the game. I have no problem with him. Racheya and jshairychest too, although js has used terrible points to back up his claims.

 

The people I do have a problem with are people who give poor advice on the H&A forums. This includes people who say, for example, that woodcutting magics is good money and will make you mils on the way to 99 woodcutting. While technically true, it's still a poor moneymaker relative to many other method of training or making money. Feel free to play your own way, but there are "best" ways to do everything.

 

To put an end to this argument, I have devised a clever formula to calculate efficiency

 

Fun = Efficiency for self

 

No but rly

 

Efficiency = (Maximum Amount of Money You Can Make/Hr) - (Money You're Making/Losing Right Now/Hr) / (Experience/Hour) is the formula, get it straight.

 

http://runescape.wikia.com/wiki/Efficiency

 

this is a nice little primer on efficiency and is in general a pretty uber-pro article.

 

Edit: the calculator near the bottom is pretty cool. Played around with the numbers a bit. The most surprising conclusion was that it shows that a method that gives 175,000 xp/hr but costs 4 gp/xp is better than a method that gives 120,000 xp/hr and profits 250k/hr if one makes more than 2.3m/hr. Pretty neat.

[SixFootOne]

Golvellius clearly has fun playing the game. I have no problem with him. Racheya and jshairychest too, although js has used terrible points to back up his claims.

 

The people I do have a problem with are people who give poor advice on the H&A forums. This includes people who say, for example, that woodcutting magics is good money and will make you mils on the way to 99 woodcutting. While technically true, it's still a poor moneymaker relative to many other method of training or making money. Feel free to play your own way, but there are "best" ways to do everything.

 

To put an end to this argument, I have devised a clever formula to calculate efficiency

 

Fun = Efficiency for self

 

No but rly

 

Efficiency = (Maximum Amount of Money You Can Make/Hr) - (Money You're Making/Losing Right Now/Hr) / (Experience/Hour) is the formula, get it straight.

 

http://runescape.wikia.com/wiki/Efficiency

 

this is a nice little primer on efficiency and is in general a pretty uber-pro article.

 

Edit: the calculator near the bottom is pretty cool. Played around with the numbers a bit. The most surprising conclusion was that it shows that a method that gives 175,000 xp/hr but costs 4 gp/xp is better than a method that gives 120,000 xp/hr and profits 250k/hr if one makes more than 2.3m/hr. Pretty neat.

 

Very interesting calc, surprised someone on this thread hasn't mentioned it before. Thanks for showing it

[Grimy_Bunyip]

I have removed a number of posts from this point as they were all taking the topic off on a tangent. When posting, please keep in mind what this topic is discussing and stick with that. If someone makes an unnecessary post, don't respond to it, report it!

 

Thanks

Wait why was I the only one that was censored?

It's not like there's nobody else on this thread on tangents.

firstly my comments were not off topic, they were addressing JR's comment about training multiple skills at the same time being inefficient.

Which was still on topic. Maybe I didn't feel like explaining the definition of independent and dependent fully, but I don't think that's a reason to fault me considering how much effort i've already exerted trying to explain things to JR.

Once again, out of all the trolling on this thread, why was I censored?

 

I'm really offended.

[xpx]

Yes i realize this example took place in classic (obviously if ectofunctus wasnt used it was a long time ago)

 

however even without the ge, its reasonable to say that one of the first 99 smithers would have a reasonably large cash pile from rune 2h'ers. And i realize that buying things took time, i remember the days of w2 and looking through the forums for stuff, and permanent buyers and sellers of items on my friends list.

 

However buying stuff back then would still of been faster then killing it yourself, in my own personal opinion i feel he did this to train how he wanted not because it was the fastest xp and he stuck with it because he wanted to.

 

Now i dont mind being called "new school", I started sometime in 04 in rs2 so yes I never played Classic when it was runescape. Even if someone chose to kill 49k blue dragons now for lvls and it is clearly not the most efficient, if its something they want to do and they stick through it, they will be better off then someone playing efficiently but not the way they want to.

 

That was the point im trying to make, not whether or not zezimas method of training at the time was the most efficient, just that he chose a method he liked and stuck through it and thats why he was successful. And my closing words for this arguement are that anyone playing how they want is better off no matter how inefficient (ex: ellebreyals) then someone playing by the agreed upon most efficient method that they may or may not enjoy.

 

To anyone out there, if you enjoy it then please smith cannonballs to 99, if it takes 6 months so be it... most of the players doing (presumably) faster methods will not reach 99 at all.

Still, you aren't as smart as you are pretending to be- if you haven't played efficiently for the last ~6 years, you'd have no idea what the efficient methods were back in the day.

 

Firstly, pretending that being oldschool = lots of partyhats is a tragic logic. It's a myth. The people that still believe it likely still believe in Santa Claus.

 

Secondly, having been one of the first 99 smiths wasn't a major advantage because of how bluerose achieved it. If you don't know the story, then you should read up on it, but the fact is, if you weren't first, you made almost nothing.

 

Zezima didn't kill 49k blue dragons in rsc, it was in rs2, and actually, back then, it was the thing to do. Lilyuffie trained alot of her prayer levels there(99 prayer, the last classic skill 99 to be achieved) because of how ridiculously expensive prayer was(there was only burying). Ecto has never been efficient.

 

Mentioning these methods, you are actually talking about efficiency. How? if you like something enough and can stick to it for the whole time, it is likely the efficient method for you, as you have to take enjoyment into account. Villandra is one of the most efficient people playing this game, she just has interesting goals.

 

I doubt anyone can actually say that they enjoy smithing cannonballs, rather it's a burden you bear, and realistically, it can only be efficient if you hate runescape(as it's one of the most afk things in the game). There are loads more enjoyable and faster ways of achieving 99 smithing, thus why cannonballs are never mentioned.

 

 

Golvellius, i don't actually think people are stupid because they aren't or don't try to be efficient, but rather because they don't understand efficiency or make stupid arguments about it(ie. fun > efficiency LLLLLL!!11). I think you are stupid because you fear coming out of the closet(and admit that you actually think before training a skill, thus rendering you efficient).

[Jehosaphat]

Time for a Continuous Topic Summary post!

 

So far, we've learned that....

Doing a skill the way you enjoy it > doing it with just the best gp/xp/hour relative to your income.

If you're mutually apathetic towards any way of training a skill, or hate training the skill in all ways, shapes, and forms (i.e. I don't give a darn what logs I burn for fm), then doing it the way with the best gp/xp/hr relative to your income is best.

If someone asks "What is the best way to do X?", it is implied that they aren't taking fun into account, as it is near-impossible to mathematically account for fun.

 

Did I miss anything?

[Youmu]

There's also the practicality of a method.

 

Sure, you can bosshunt all day and earn hundreds of mils, but are you really going to do that all day long? Moreover, CAN you?

 

Levels also take into account when calculating efficiency and effectiveness.

[Assume Nothing]

There's also the practicality of a method.

 

Sure, you can bosshunt all day and earn hundreds of mils, but are you really going to do that all day long? Moreover, CAN you?

 

Levels also take into account when calculating efficiency and effectiveness.

 

That's what Frost Dragons exist for. They aren't bosses, yet they're still great profit.

[Grimy_Bunyip]

http://runescape.wikia.com/wiki/Efficiency

 

this is a nice little primer on efficiency and is in general a pretty uber-pro article.

 

Edit: the calculator near the bottom is pretty cool. Played around with the numbers a bit. The most surprising conclusion was that it shows that a method that gives 175,000 xp/hr but costs 4 gp/xp is better than a method that gives 120,000 xp/hr and profits 250k/hr if one makes more than 2.3m/hr. Pretty neat.

That is the common equation for efficiency in runescape, but ultimately it's limited.

How would you calculate the efficiency of training multiple skills at the same time with such an equation? LRC superheating for example?

The equation also does not factor in the possibility that you might have finite goals.

 

It's not very useful to define efficiency as a whole by such an equation.

 

I prefer the dictionary definition of efficiency:

accomplishment of or ability to accomplish a job with a minimum expenditure of time and effort

[Low C]

Yes i realize this example took place in classic (obviously if ectofunctus wasnt used it was a long time ago)

 

however even without the ge, its reasonable to say that one of the first 99 smithers would have a reasonably large cash pile from rune 2h'ers. And i realize that buying things took time, i remember the days of w2 and looking through the forums for stuff, and permanent buyers and sellers of items on my friends list.

 

However buying stuff back then would still of been faster then killing it yourself, in my own personal opinion i feel he did this to train how he wanted not because it was the fastest xp and he stuck with it because he wanted to.

 

Now i dont mind being called "new school", I started sometime in 04 in rs2 so yes I never played Classic when it was runescape. Even if someone chose to kill 49k blue dragons now for lvls and it is clearly not the most efficient, if its something they want to do and they stick through it, they will be better off then someone playing efficiently but not the way they want to.

 

That was the point im trying to make, not whether or not zezimas method of training at the time was the most efficient, just that he chose a method he liked and stuck through it and thats why he was successful. And my closing words for this arguement are that anyone playing how they want is better off no matter how inefficient (ex: ellebreyals) then someone playing by the agreed upon most efficient method that they may or may not enjoy.

 

To anyone out there, if you enjoy it then please smith cannonballs to 99, if it takes 6 months so be it... most of the players doing (presumably) faster methods will not reach 99 at all.

Still, you aren't as smart as you are pretending to be- if you haven't played efficiently for the last ~6 years, you'd have no idea what the efficient methods were back in the day.

 

Firstly, pretending that being oldschool = lots of partyhats is a tragic logic. It's a myth. The people that still believe it likely still believe in Santa Claus.

 

Secondly, having been one of the first 99 smiths wasn't a major advantage because of how bluerose achieved it. If you don't know the story, then you should read up on it, but the fact is, if you weren't first, you made almost nothing.

 

Zezima didn't kill 49k blue dragons in rsc, it was in rs2, and actually, back then, it was the thing to do. Lilyuffie trained alot of her prayer levels there(99 prayer, the last classic skill 99 to be achieved) because of how ridiculously expensive prayer was(there was only burying). Ecto has never been efficient.

 

Mentioning these methods, you are actually talking about efficiency. How? if you like something enough and can stick to it for the whole time, it is likely the efficient method for you, as you have to take enjoyment into account. Villandra is one of the most efficient people playing this game, she just has interesting goals.

 

I doubt anyone can actually say that they enjoy smithing cannonballs, rather it's a burden you bear, and realistically, it can only be efficient if you hate runescape(as it's one of the most afk things in the game). There are loads more enjoyable and faster ways of achieving 99 smithing, thus why cannonballs are never mentioned.

 

 

Golvellius, i don't actually think people are stupid because they aren't or don't try to be efficient, but rather because they don't understand efficiency or make stupid arguments about it(ie. fun > efficiency LLLLLL!!11). I think you are stupid because you fear coming out of the closet(and admit that you actually think before training a skill, thus rendering you efficient).

 

So if i didnt play efficiently for 6 years im basically a noob who knows nothing.

 

Man i feel for the people that have played eficiently and have maxed out in less than 6 years, what noobs right? :rolleyes:

 

Yeah you suck, go put your account up for rating in "flame this!" and I'll stop by and give you a good response.

[xpx]

So if i didnt play efficiently for 6 years im basically a noob who knows nothing.

 

Man i feel for the people that have played eficiently and have maxed out in less than 6 years, what noobs right? :rolleyes:

You completely misunderstood what i said. The point was, if you don't have the knowledge, don't pretend to do so. It's not helpful trying to prove that zezima wasn't efficient when he actually was efficient.

[PereGrin]

So if i didnt play efficiently for 6 years im basically a noob who knows nothing.

 

Man i feel for the people that have played eficiently and have maxed out in less than 6 years, what noobs right? :rolleyes:

You completely misunderstood what i said. The point was, if you don't have the knowledge, don't pretend to do so. It's not helpful trying to prove that zezima wasn't efficient when he actually was efficient.

 

I understand, and im not trying to prove that was he was inefficient, but rahter that even if it was inefficient he wouldve succeeded because of consistency rather then efficiency.

 

While playing efficiently does make sense in most cases, its all about what one enjoys. If you hate BA then dont use a horn for agility simple as that, if you love BA congrats your doing waht you love and your effiicent

But if you hate BA and Agility, which is the most likely circumstance, then playing BA for the horn is faster. A full penance horn takes only 10 games and a few waves. It takes shorter to fill on world 6 then it does to train agility.

 

Example:

 

Using master penance horn, you get about 1.2m or so xp from it. This translates into about 600k bonus experience. Doing agility at ape atoll, at a regular pace, and completing all the laps to use your full penance horn takes about 11 hours. Without the horn, you would have only gotten 600k xp. To get the xp you would have gotten using the horn, you must spend twice as long, or 22 hours training agility.

 

Filling the horn on world 6 takes about 7 hours with average teams and even a few restarts. So, using the horn on agility would take 7 hours of filling, and 11 hours of using, for a total of 18 hours. Training agility without the horn would take 22 hours.

 

Now, if you are an avid quester, and jagex comes out with a quest that requires 72 agility, and you want your quest cape back, you are gonna need at least 3 agility levels. Doing BA for a few hours will save you time in agility, because the ratio of time it takes to ba vs time it takes to train w/o horn stays the same, at about 9/11ths.

 

Now, a 7 hour fill time is very very generous. I am able to join BA clans, and play 20-25 minute games, when world 6 takes about 45 minutes to complete a game.

 

Also, you must take into account that it is more likely that you will start to like BA then you will start to like agility. I know lots of people who started out hating BA, but they began to have fun after a bit. I don't think I have ever seen someone start off hating agility, but end up loving it. This may happen, but from my experience, it happens much less with agility.

 

So if you hate both activities, it is faster to do BA first, and then agility. You may also start to have fun at BA whether you want to or not.

[Guest jrhairychest]

There's also the practicality of a method.

 

Sure, you can bosshunt all day and earn hundreds of mils, but are you really going to do that all day long? Moreover, CAN you?

 

Levels also take into account when calculating efficiency and effectiveness.

Agreed. Methods like this are fine along with other so-called efficient methods. But theyre pie in the sky if players just talk about them without actually practising what they preach, which seems to go on a lot. The consistency comments also go along with this:

 

 

While playing efficiently does make sense in most cases, its all about what one enjoys. If you hate BA then dont use a horn for agility simple as that, if you love BA congrats your doing waht you love and your effiicent

 

Now if i did my own vandrilla style challenge account, say 99 slayer with only a bronze dagger and i get 99 slayer because im did what i wanted, i would be better off then someone who gained xp 10x faster then me but quit in the process

 

Perhaps trying to play efficiently cause players to burn out and boredom in some players, at the expense of enjoyment.

[xpx]

So if i didnt play efficiently for 6 years im basically a noob who knows nothing.

 

Man i feel for the people that have played eficiently and have maxed out in less than 6 years, what noobs right? :rolleyes:

You completely misunderstood what i said. The point was, if you don't have the knowledge, don't pretend to do so. It's not helpful trying to prove that zezima wasn't efficient when he actually was efficient.

 

I understand, and im not trying to prove that was he was inefficient, but rahter that even if it was inefficient he wouldve succeeded because of consistency rather then efficiency.

 

While playing efficiently does make sense in most cases, its all about what one enjoys. If you hate BA then dont use a horn for agility simple as that, if you love BA congrats your doing waht you love and your effiicent

 

 

Now if i did my own vandrilla style challenge account, say 99 slayer with only a bronze dagger and i get 99 slayer because im did what i wanted, i would be better off then someone who gained xp 10x faster then me but quit in the process

I understand your point about sticking to your goal, but what does it exactly have to do with efficiency? Also you did say that it likely wasn't the efficient method, and you were wrong about that, so it proves that you were talking about things you didn't actually know. Then again about partyhats, and than again about 99 smithing....Thus- if you weren't around(or were but wasn't aware), don't assume to know things.

 

As for enjoyment, as i've said time and again, true efficiency(as it is defined in a dictionary) takes absolutely every variable into account to find the method that saves most time(in rl meaning, resources too, but almost all rs resources are infinite, almost all real life resources are finite). If you enjoy a method and can stick to it until you achieve your goal, it will likely be the efficient method for it for you(unless theres a method of higher xp and comparable enjoyment).

[PereGrin]

Perhaps trying to play efficiently cause players to burn out and boredom in some players, at the expense of enjoyment.

 

 

Read this.

 

Efficiency is gaining the most output for the least input, for example if time is the imput, then the fastest method of training would be the most efficient. This combined with other factors such as money, effort, and funness (to be fair this would fall under effort).

 

Now lets look at this forumula in action.

 

In our controlled group all these factors are valid (please dont switch in your own method, the given is that you make this much and you like this method or hate it *im not basing it on your personally preference but in general*)

 

Training method A costs 400k gp per hour (you make 500k gp per hour), but gains you 100k xp per hour. It also requires constant clicking and is a method you personally do not enjoy.

 

Training method B costs 200k gp per hour (you make 500k gp per hour), however it gains only 40k xp per hour. It is semi afkable and you enjoy this method.

 

 

Which one is more efficient?

 

While some players may say "method A is obviously better, I dont lose any money and i dont care if i have to focus 100% on what I am doing and I hate this method but anything for the fastest xp possible!" I personally say more power to them!

 

While some players say "yes method A does deliver faster xp but I hate it, by doing method B i can train for over twice as long before having to go back to money making, and I can do homework or *insert activity here* while training, and as a bonus I love this method (be it whatever personal reason you like it)" I personally say as well, more power to them!

 

The fact of the matter is efficiency is subjective, what you may find efficient is not what another person may find to be. For example on time constraint method A might be better for you and might be worth sacrificing fun however to someone with more free time they might opt for method B.

 

In short no one has the authority to decide objectively what is the best method to train.

 

This thread, for some reason, is STILL funny. Then again, maybe it's because I see any page-long arguments as hiding subliminal messages. :P

 

I still think that it should be let everyone go their own way - both those who prefer to train in the most efficient way possible to get to the fun stuff, those who find joy in the training itself, or those who find joy in training the most efficient way possible. Some enjoy the journey, and thus make it longer; some enjoy the destination, and thus make the journey shorter; some enjoy watching the sights of the journey whizz by, and thus also make it shorter.

You ask for advice regarding a specific "destination" (i.e. goal, level, XP amount, w/e) and it is presumed that you are aimed toward achieving the destination instead of enjoying the journey.

 

Anything I missed?

 

EDIT: This too.

 

I got 99 agil through using brimhaven a few hours a night with another bunch of mad but fun players. Had great fun, got 99 and didn’t try to kill myself doing ape atoll or wherever and having an ultra boring time. Sure it took a while, but I was in no rush. Again, I have achieved the same as someone who did ape atoll lapping....zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz.

I’m not bothered if people look on me differently or don’t share my beliefs. I’m my own man which is better than following the flock anytime.

[Guest jrhairychest]

Your point?

[PereGrin]

Your point?

If you do not understand, you haven't read it yet.

[Guest jrhairychest]

Your point?

If you do not understand, you haven't read it yet.

Still waiting <_<

[SirIzenhime]

so is everyone else.

[Guest jrhairychest]

Sorry I'm not following you here. Would you like to enlighten me and try to have an adult debate, giving me some of your own points to answer on the posts, or you want to continue your in adolescent tag-team? Your choice.

[Vulxai]

Jr, your not showing much maturity in the matter either. Just though I'd point that out.

[Guest jrhairychest]

Jr, your not showing much maturity in the matter either. Just though I'd point that out.

I'll debate a point when a point comes my way. Nothing childish about that.