Pro DGing

[green9090]

if there's 5 players, there's always 5 tier 8 items, all which sell for enough to buy a toolkit+1k log each.

 

Not everyone mages anyways, you really should only need enough for 2 people at most.

I'm not sure what planet you're from, but there's never enough on the table for everyone in my team to get a toolkit and enough ess for laws and cosmics, let alone a log too.

 

Or do your teams not use gatestones?

 

two of the people I dung with have laws bound, and I make ~5 alch spells to alch the tier 8s, I have more then enough for ess and logs.

 

Because cutting one log is a waste of time but alching isn't?

This. You're going to spend more time making alchs and alching table items than you would going into the first room, killing a monster for a stack of cash, AND chopping a grave branch.

 

I really think you're underestimating how fast wc is. Getting a branch is hardly any time at all.

[TheAncient]

Question on thunderous:

 

seeing as how mage DPS is comparable to melee DPS, is the run/gate method REALLY worth it?

 

with a pro team that can cleanly run/gate, most likely yes. but on random teams people ALWAYS mess up. this makes thunderous a huge pain because he heals.

 

in those cases, why not just pray mage and only mage him, for the people who have surgeboxes bound?

[Grimy_Bunyip]

Question on thunderous:

 

seeing as how mage DPS is comparable to melee DPS, is the run/gate method REALLY worth it?

 

with a pro team that can cleanly run/gate, most likely yes. but on random teams people ALWAYS mess up. this makes thunderous a huge pain because he heals.

 

in those cases, why not just pray mage and only mage him, for the people who have surgeboxes bound?

That's the strategy used during the early days of dungeoneering. And it works.

Requires food since pro magic doesn't completely block his attacks.

Also much slower.

[green9090]

Question on thunderous:

 

seeing as how mage DPS is comparable to melee DPS, is the run/gate method REALLY worth it?

 

with a pro team that can cleanly run/gate, most likely yes. but on random teams people ALWAYS mess up. this makes thunderous a huge pain because he heals.

 

in those cases, why not just pray mage and only mage him, for the people who have surgeboxes bound?

I'm like 90% sure I remember hearing that his mage attack hits through prayer, either partially or fully.

[Blutters]

Wait, Thunderous heals? How/when?

[Articultural]

He heals if any member of your team gets caught in his "Come Closer!" attack.

[stonewall337]

I have SSH, Prom2h, and Platebody bound, as well as surgebox. Whether or not there is enough GP at the start doesn't matter; within 2 doors I have enough for a toolkit, Bspindle log, and 110 ess, 70 laws, 30 cosmic, and 10 astrals. Make the staff, and I'm back with the others within 30 seconds.

[SirIzenhime]

 

I really think you're underestimating how fast wc is. Getting a branch is hardly any time at all.

 

Not really, it's a gamble when you think about it. Using a Novite Hatchet (or marmaros), you might only get 1 log from a tree, which is the last branch. Also alching the items quickly at the start could save time later if you need to gather coins for an altar later, because sometimes monsters are just greedy.

 

I'm thinking we should just end this staff discussion, because we're honestly talking about seconds lost/saved here, it's not worth such a long discussion.

[stan18]

Quick question - why are bloodragers so popular? I haven't seen them on w117 (nor do i use them) but it seems like they're a good fam to make, can someone explain why?

[Zaaps1]

Quick question - why are bloodragers so popular? I haven't seen them on w117 (nor do i use them) but it seems like they're a good fam to make, can someone explain why?

 

The scroll lowers defense.

[CharlieBrown]

Quick question - why are bloodragers so popular? I haven't seen them on w117 (nor do i use them) but it seems like they're a good fam to make, can someone explain why?

 

Lowers defence by a lottttttttt

People on w 117 generally just don't know how to dungeoneer effectively (stereotype or not, it's mainly true) and hence, this is most likely the reason you are yet to see them yet

Most high level groups make them to make the boss 68706704 times easier.

[Youmu]

Does the defense effects stack? Like, you can lower defense with the scroll as many times as you want, until it has literally no defense at all.

 

If so, damn, that's just overpowered :shock:

[Grimy_Bunyip]

 

I really think you're underestimating how fast wc is. Getting a branch is hardly any time at all.

 

Not really, it's a gamble when you think about it. Using a Novite Hatchet (or marmaros), you might only get 1 log from a tree, which is the last branch. Also alching the items quickly at the start could save time later if you need to gather coins for an altar later, because sometimes monsters are just greedy.

 

I'm thinking we should just end this staff discussion, because we're honestly talking about seconds lost/saved here, it's not worth such a long discussion.

I've chopped gravecreepers before, and it definitely takes a looong time unless you get lucky off the first log (which is rarely the case).

Alchemy is an interesting idea. I should keep it in mind if I ever find myself short on table loot, and there is a distinct lack of GDs near the smuggler.

It'd definitely be better to spend some time alching, than to have to spend even more time home teleporting later on during the floor.

 

but usually that isn't the case, and I can get a few thousand GPs from drops just from clearing the first few GDs.

[la la la]

Does the defense effects stack? Like, you can lower defense with the scroll as many times as you want, until it has literally no defense at all.

 

If so, damn, that's just overpowered :shock:

Yes but you can only get 3 scrolls off before running out of special, so you need multiple bloodragers to effectively kill the defence of a boss.

[green9090]

Does the defense effects stack? Like, you can lower defense with the scroll as many times as you want, until it has literally no defense at all.

 

If so, damn, that's just overpowered :shock:

Yes but you can only get 3 scrolls off before running out of special, so you need multiple bloodragers to effectively kill the defence of a boss.

Though just those 3 specs do make a pretty huge difference on most bosses.

[Ermy]

Does the defense effects stack? Like, you can lower defense with the scroll as many times as you want, until it has literally no defense at all.

 

If so, damn, that's just overpowered :shock:

Yes but you can only get 3 scrolls off before running out of special, so you need multiple bloodragers to effectively kill the defence of a boss.

Though just those 3 specs do make a pretty huge difference on most bosses.

 

Bit pants if you're only managing to get 3 scrolls off, you can use one and wait for bar to get back to full while team mates are getting ready.

[D Jay99]

Also I noticed some kind of delay after each spec regardless of spec bar? So yeah I usually go in before boss 1-2 times and spec boss (use w148 so teammates are usually like wtf are you doing).

[SirIzenhime]

Also I noticed some kind of delay after each spec regardless of spec bar? So yeah I usually go in before boss 1-2 times and spec boss (use w148 so teammates are usually like wtf are you doing).

 

It's not a delay, the way it works is similar the the steel titan, in that you use the scroll, see a nice animation. Then your familiars next attack will be the special attack. Unlike the Stormbringer and deathslingers, their specs go off right away.

[D Jay99]

Oooh like that. Guess thats why spam clicking it doesnt work :P

[Youmu]

Just decided to do some calculations with primal rapier, longsword, and spear (all stab).

This all takes into account if the person is using tier 10 berserker.

 

Rapier: +109 str x +20% = +130.8 str

Accuracy: +83 stab

Speed: 6

 

Longsword: +134 str x +0% (controlled) = +134 str

Accuracy: +87 stab

Speed: 5

 

Spear: +145 str x +0% (controlled) = +145 str

Accuracy: +132 stab

Speed: 5

 

Now, when adding together the totals, rapier still has very slightly lower bonuses than longsword, but is 1 tick faster, therefore it appears it is slightly better at stabbing.

 

However, take into account of the spear. It has waaaaay more accuracy along with more str even without zerker, so it appears rapier might fall low in the stab region.

 

This isn't even taking account into 2nd styles. Rapier has a +67 slash coupled with the +130.8 str, which the slash is significantly lower than longsword's +120, which can use berserker as well (+160.8 str). Even the primal spear has +70 slash, along with +113 crush (although neither can use berserker).

 

With this taken into account, is rapier really THAT much better?

 

Just wonderin'.

[Grimy_Bunyip]

@ Sonikku

DPS on defenseless targets: assuming tier 10 berserker for rapier, stabbing

 

Rapier: 259,195

Longsword: 236,887

Spear: 249,881

 

DPS coefficient (Not DPS) on heavily armored targets (IE if you are missing more than 50% of the time with all 3 weapons)

Rapier: 86,663

Longsword: 101,646

Spear: 138,554

 

nobody really uses the spear.

A few people say that it works nice with the celestial surgebox.

But yeah nobody I know actually uses this combo, even if it MIGHT work well in theory.

[xpx]

@ Sonikku

DPS on defenseless targets: assuming tier 10 berserker for rapier, stabbing

 

Rapier: 259,195

Longsword: 236,887

Spear: 249,881

 

DPS coefficient (Not DPS) on heavily armored targets (IE if you are missing more than 50% of the time with all 3 weapons)

Rapier: 86,663

Longsword: 101,646

Spear: 138,554

 

nobody really uses the spear.

A few people say that it works nice with the celestial surgebox.

But yeah nobody I know actually uses this combo, even if it MIGHT work well in theory.

Umm, as far as i can tell, rapier is always better than spear if don't need crush.

 

The max hit for spear is about the same as rapier on berserker(~19%).

For stab, rapier is alot less accurate but is 25% faster, if you use stab on stab-weak monsters, it's always better(up to ~25% better).

For slash, the accuracy bonuses are very close where as rapier keeps it's speed advantage, rapier is always around 25% better.

 

For crush, you'd use surgebox...

[Grimy_Bunyip]

@ Sonikku

DPS on defenseless targets: assuming tier 10 berserker for rapier, stabbing

 

Rapier: 259,195

Longsword: 236,887

Spear: 249,881

 

DPS coefficient (Not DPS) on heavily armored targets (IE if you are missing more than 50% of the time with all 3 weapons)

Rapier: 86,663

Longsword: 101,646

Spear: 138,554

 

nobody really uses the spear.

A few people say that it works nice with the celestial surgebox.

But yeah nobody I know actually uses this combo, even if it MIGHT work well in theory.

Umm, as far as i can tell, rapier is always better than spear if don't need crush.

 

The max hit for spear is about the same as rapier on berserker(~19%).

For stab, rapier is alot less accurate but is 25% faster, if you use stab on stab-weak monsters, it's always better(up to ~25% better).

For slash, the accuracy bonuses are very close where as rapier keeps it's speed advantage, rapier is always around 25% better.

 

For crush, you'd use surgebox...

I'd still rather test it myself before I lay judgment, because not every weakness type is well known.

I've used a promethium rapier on fire giants/hellhounds as well, and even if they're weak to stab, rapier isn't THAT accurate (it's still on the order of 50-70% accuracy)

And that borders on being on being comparable to a spear.

But maybe it's because it's promethium.

 

Nobody's really using the box/rapier combo. I'd really like to see that before I cast personal judgment.

[Naraku893]

I might try the box and rapier. Cba getting primal rapier atm though

[xpx]

I'd still rather test it myself before I lay judgment, because not every weakness type is well known.

I've used a promethium rapier on fire giants/hellhounds as well, and even if they're weak to stab, rapier isn't THAT accurate (it's still on the order of 50-70% accuracy)

And that borders on being on being comparable to a spear.

But maybe it's because it's promethium.

 

Nobody's really using the box/rapier combo. I'd really like to see that before I cast personal judgment.

Well, in theory, if it's worth using spear, it'd definitely be worth using rapier, so that logic should still apply. As evidenced by your great DPS calcs, at infinite defense, rapier and spear are equal for stabbing, so it's really the best stabbing weapon in daemonheim. Add to that that it's always around 25% better for slashing(and the difference actually goes up with defense level, 23% at 0 def, 33% at infinite) and it just strengthens this theory.