Dungeonsweepers (DGS) - Huge changes; read first post.

[Obtaurian]

^ If you're mad about a 33 min floor, you be trippin...

 

Just so everyone's aware, this guy is not in DGS. ^

[ghjkl]

 

For as much animosity as this thread generates between 3bo members and DGS, I think it is extremely beneficial for both parties involved in that everyone can learn something.

 

Just like to mention a few things that came to mind recently.

 

Having never dungeoneered with a true DGS team, I was wondering how no platers fair when running doors. As any good dungeoneer knows, having teammates who run keys is essential to good floor times. Most everyone in 3bo has a plate, and thus most everyone is capable of slapping on deflect magic, and running through 3-6 rooms if necessary on as little as 1-2 food, provided there are no hax rooms (where taking loads of damage is inevitable). I'm wondering how much more difficult it would be to run doors without a plate. Obviously, none of DGS soul split and stepping tactics would come into play because running through (non gd) rooms does not involve killing anything.

 

Also, because of the plate binds, 3bo teams are easily capable of splitting up between multiple guardian doors, while the entire DPS idea behind DGS strategy seems to focus on the entire team (- the keyer perhaps) to be in the same gd. Obviously its better to do the gd's as a team, but the flexibility that the plate offers is valuable in my opinion. For example, lets say the keyer is off somewhere, and a big gd is opened at the same time as a jumpy, but the rooms are far apart. 3 people leave for the gd while one stays at the jumpy. Lets say the jumpy leads to another gd, but with only two monsters, a forgotten mage and a level 136 range skele. A 3bo member with a plate would easily be able to solo the smaller gd, and continue on the section of the map without having to move the ggs back. This would be ideal, considering the less the ggs has to be moved around the map, the less time is wasted teleing/moving it 1-2 extra doors etc, and the faster the floor is. However, a DGS member would have a very difficult time soloing the same room while praying mage because the skele would rip constant 150-200s. This is, in my opinion, a specific example that highlights the overall practicality of the plate compared to a rapier or gaunts as a third bind.

 

As interesting as DGS whole DPS philosophy is, it just isn't very practical. For maximum effort and maximum dependence on ones teammates, a DGSer is rewarded with (assuming everything between two teams is equal) the best floor times. On the contrary, a 3bo team can put forth minimal (no turmoil) to average (turmoiling/soul splitting early on in hard gd's) effort and minimal dependence on the binds and ability of other teammates, save the keyer, and still get more than satisfactory floor times. One or two players on a team electing to go for dps binds hardly makes a difference. Its an all or none sort of thing.

 

My point is this. The reason I am sticking with 3bo (and my plate) is that I want to put as little dependence on my teammates as possible. If they are 10 seconds late to a gd, or one guy is being an idiot and isnt there, it hardly matters at all. 95% of the time, I'm not going to die or use a great deal more food because of it. In DGS, it doesn't appear you have that luxury. All 5 members of the team need to be reacting as quickly as possible and doing exactly what they ought to for the strategy to work. And even if you were to find 5 such individuals, putting the same team in a typical 3bo situation would yield a very comparable (albeit, I admit, a slightly slower) floor.

 

In absolutely ideal circumstances, a DGS team would trump a 3bo one. But anything short of near perfection on the part of the DGS team, and 3bo is better.

 

Some things to keep in mind about people which I think make the idealist methods of DGS inferior are that the vast majority of people are inherently lazy, average intellect, and concerned primarily about their own agenda, and secondarily about the agenda of those around them. The principles of DGS go against all of these natural tendencies, and thus are far less likely to be worth while than the approach 3bo takes which clearly accounts for them. 3bo's binds reflect this, as the plate and 2h satisfy the laziness aspect. All you have to do is pray mage, and switch to crush for skeletons (and you don't even really HAVE to do that, because the 2h is so good anyways). The plate also provides a huge guard against death (and thus, exp loss), and thus reflects the person's desire to (presumably) get fast exp, although some people don't even really care about this lol.

 

3bo epitomizes the "almost the best, for a quarter of the effort" type of training that runescapers love. Why do people do pyramid plunder instead of blackjacking, or ivy instead of teaks/arctic pine splitting? This is the reason 3bo is a huge success. But do not get me wrong, as a player focusing on efficiency, I would often opt to go for the more intense yet more rewarding method of training. But that was always dependent on me, and not four others. That is why dungeoneering is different, and why DGS is, at best, an equal to 3bo. And because very few people are willing to work much harder for the same result, DGS will probably fail. Its strength now stems from its acceptance of <105(110) dg, not people's whole hearted support of its methods.

 

tldr:

If I could dungeoneer with 5 of me, I would choose the DPS methods DGS outlines. But since thats not a possibility, I elect to account for the extreme likelihood that someone on my team, at some point, will mess up, knowing that I will have some insurance against that through my binds and everyone elses. DGS is idealistically fantastic, and realistically disappointing, while 3bo is idealistically blind, and realistically practical.

 

PS I made Foot a rapier today while he was keying, so no more of this spear bs lol.

 

When we founded DGS, we asked ourselves what kind of DG clan we'd want.

And we decided to target a niche audience.

3BO already targeted the masses.

There's no need for another clan like that.

And we'll keep focusing on metagame and research because that's what we're good at.

 

As for like, a mutually beneficial discussion, the good 3BO'ers seem too tightly knit to trickle down information to lesser 3BO'ers, much less outsiders.

So generally speaking, I'm not particularly inclined to listen to 3BOers on forums or CC.

There are good 3BOers, but when I get good advice from them it's always during the middle of a floor or over PMs.

 

Your image of dgs might be a niche clan formed to teach people to be pro at dungeoneering, but that is not the case. Dgs has simply become a clan where every tifer goes to get their dungeons done. They may stick with it after they get 105 dg or they may use 3bo, but the clan itself is definitely not focused on churning out pro dungeoneers one after another. Sure keyers/ranks might be willing to correct a noob on a minor mistake during a dungeon, but in order to be truely effective at teaching more resources are needed in putting out guides to at least inform newer people of the basics before we really get into the pro techniques. People simply don't take the effort to teach when the objective is fast floor times.

[xpx]

Your image of dgs might be a niche clan formed to teach people to be pro at dungeoneering, but that is not the case. Dgs has simply become a clan where every tifer goes to get their dungeons done. They may stick with it after they get 105 dg or they may use 3bo, but the clan itself is definitely not focused on churning out pro dungeoneers one after another. Sure keyers/ranks might be willing to correct a noob on a minor mistake during a dungeon, but in order to be truely effective at teaching more resources are needed in putting out guides to at least inform newer people of the basics before we really get into the pro techniques. People simply don't take the effort to teach when the objective is fast floor times.

Yeah, we really do have problems with the attitude of some members... :rolleyes:

[JPMC Mate]

^ If you're mad about a 33 min floor, you be trippin...

 

Just so everyone's aware, this guy is not in DGS. ^

Who me?

[F0TH]

Your image of dgs might be a niche clan formed to teach people to be pro at dungeoneering, but that is not the case. Dgs has simply become a clan where every tifer goes to get their dungeons done. They may stick with it after they get 105 dg or they may use 3bo, but the clan itself is definitely not focused on churning out pro dungeoneers one after another. Sure keyers/ranks might be willing to correct a noob on a minor mistake during a dungeon, but in order to be truely effective at teaching more resources are needed in putting out guides to at least inform newer people of the basics before we really get into the pro techniques. People simply don't take the effort to teach when the objective is fast floor times.

 

Having done 85 to 90 dung with purely DGS teams, I can say that in almost every floor so far I have learned something new, a trick or tip to improve my overall effectiveness in dungeons. All the keyers, as well as people in the clan chat are very helpful when asked questions and seem to respond quickly. Ultimately, having more effective people in the clan chat seems to be the best way to achieve constant fast floor times. Personally, I'd like a team which can key constant sub-30 floors with unexperienced people, while still giving a good teaching experience.

 

Also, it's obviously hard for keyers to help with overall DPS improvements, as they are most often not doing gd's with the team. I have found that it's often wingmen or other DPSers who share their advice, and gives a relaxed learning experience. Which, is much more helpful and hands on than reading it in a guide.

 

Is it maybe possible, that you don't see the learning opportunities given because you just arn't open to learning?

[green9090]

Please ignore irrational (aka Losing Games). He is a troll.

[aerendil]

FFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFF WHO LET 3BO OUT OF CAGE.

 

buuttt on a serious note; i think you're all missing something. Ive done floors with dgs+3bo(but more dgs) and i have to say; while most 3bo floors are a bit faster; i prefer dgs floors by farrr, for ONE reason. In EVER 3bo team ive done; most/all of the 3bo'ers are arrogant, ragey, annoying gits; and are not willing to try a new method, or test something out if it means loss of xp; in base; they have nasty personalities.

 

Where as with dgs, (most) of the keyers/people are generally nice, accepting of issues in the people in their floor, and are always willing to try something new, and are not afraid to lose their xp if it benefits another team member. I may be slightly biased here, but put it this way.

 

(tl;dr version)

Would you rather a 25-30 min floor with nice polite people,

or a 15-25 min floor with arrogant, angry and impatient people?

 

I know I would rather have fun than be shouted at and insulted for screwing some little thing up. Dgs is more accepting of screw ups, and they provide a nice community to be in.

 

If you would rather have fast floors with trolls, get into the 3bo cage, where you can be booted for booting someone who steals a hex; because accordingly stealing hexes is ok.

 

Also, dgs bribered me with a fr33 hhb.

[ghjkl]

Please ignore irrational (aka Losing Games). He is a troll.

because you're active enough to know what is really going on in floors?

[green9090]

I know I'm feeding a troll here, but I just did like 5 DGS floors last night, so...

[Obtaurian]

Please ignore irrational (aka Losing Games). He is a troll.

because you're active enough to know what is really going on in floors?

 

He is, actually. Him and I typically play at the same time (we're both in California and we both play very late at night).

[Zaaps1]

FFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFF WHO LET 3BO OUT OF CAGE.

 

buuttt on a serious note; i think you're all missing something. Ive done floors with dgs+3bo(but more dgs) and i have to say; while most 3bo floors are a bit faster; i prefer dgs floors by farrr, for ONE reason. In EVER 3bo team ive done; most/all of the 3bo'ers are arrogant, ragey, annoying gits; and are not willing to try a new method, or test something out if it means loss of xp; in base; they have nasty personalities.

 

Where as with dgs, (most) of the keyers/people are generally nice, accepting of issues in the people in their floor, and are always willing to try something new, and are not afraid to lose their xp if it benefits another team member. I may be slightly biased here, but put it this way.

 

(tl;dr version)

Would you rather a 25-30 min floor with nice polite people,

or a 15-25 min floor with arrogant, angry and impatient people?

 

I know I would rather have fun than be shouted at and insulted for screwing some little thing up. Dgs is more accepting of screw ups, and they provide a nice community to be in.

 

If you would rather have fast floors with trolls, get into the 3bo cage, where you can be booted for booting someone who steals a hex; because accordingly stealing hexes is ok.

 

Also, dgs bribered me with a fr33 hhb.

 

3b0 is also run in a more chaotic manner, and the preference for rows may not be appealing to some people. I prefer DGS, personally. I agree with Meam's post. When I dungeon with DGS, it's me having fun playing a game. When I dungeon with 3b0, it's just another grind skill.

 

[hide]I would also like to take this opportunity to remind everyone that the East Coast is where it's at.[/hide]

[Cdundee1]

I said I would stop, but this topic definitely has the best dungeoneering discussions.

 

However, saying 3BO is all "ragey gits" is a pretty bold statement. :mellow:

[Zaaps1]

I wouldn't say they're all "ragey gits", but the overall atmosphere seems formal and bland, imo, whereas in DGS it does seem more fun.

[Obtaurian]

On a completely unrelated note, Platebeard is now a moderator (gold star) in the clan chat. Woe unto those who incur his wrath.

[Grimy_Bunyip]

On a completely unrelated note, Platebeard is now a moderator (gold star) in the clan chat. Woe unto those who incur his wrath.

Fortunately for us, platebeard is indestructible, thus we will never feel his wrath.

[Zaaps1]

On a completely unrelated note, Platebeard is now a moderator (gold star) in the clan chat. Woe unto those who incur his wrath.

Fortunately for us, platebeard is indestructible, thus we will never feel his wrath.

 

atfirstiwaslike"wat"thenilol'd.jpg

[JPMC Mate]

What new guidelines?

[JPMC Mate]

Attitude goes a long way as well...

[Andy]

Spartan, you've been asked time and time again to stop posting. If you want to make a topic about this, go ahead. 3bo are not trying to compete with dgs in any way and yet you're trying making it out to be like that. We are two different clans with different ideals - get over the fact that we have different ideals to you.

 

I've reported your post because this is getting far too much. Stop posting crap about 3bo because honestly, dgsers do not give a [cabbage]. We're not 3bo, you are. If you want to talk about 3bo, talk about it on the 3bo forums.

[JPMC Mate]

Spartan, you've been asked time and time again to stop posting. If you want to make a topic about this, go ahead. 3bo are not trying to compete with dgs in any way and yet you're trying making it out to be like that. We are two different clans with different ideals - get over the fact that we have different ideals to you.

 

I've reported your post because this is getting far too much. Stop posting crap about 3bo because honestly, dgsers do not give a [cabbage]. We're not 3bo, you are. If you want to talk about 3bo, talk about it on the 3bo forums.

On another note, what did you mean when you told me to read the guidelines?

[Andy]

Spartan, you've been asked time and time again to stop posting. If you want to make a topic about this, go ahead. 3bo are not trying to compete with dgs in any way and yet you're trying making it out to be like that. We are two different clans with different ideals - get over the fact that we have different ideals to you.

 

I've reported your post because this is getting far too much. Stop posting crap about 3bo because honestly, dgsers do not give a [cabbage]. We're not 3bo, you are. If you want to talk about 3bo, talk about it on the 3bo forums.

On another note, what did you mean when you told me to read the guidelines?

The front page - read the first post.

[JPMC Mate]

I have already applied to DGS when the clan page wasn't on the RSOF. And I did read the rules. :P

[Grimy_Bunyip]

I have already applied to DGS when the clan page wasn't on the RSOF. And I did read the rules. :P

We added some new stuff right after the RSOF.

It might be worth a second look.

[JPMC Mate]

^ Yes, I have read all the rules, even the new ones. :) I read the rules everyday. :)

[tripsis]

Spartan, you've been asked time and time again to stop posting. If you want to make a topic about this, go ahead. 3bo are not trying to compete with dgs in any way and yet you're trying making it out to be like that. We are two different clans with different ideals - get over the fact that we have different ideals to you.

This pretty much. This isn't the place to play "my dungeoneering clan is better than yours." If you have issues, take it up in private. If you want to make a general topic about floor times, etc., please make your own topic.