Dungeonsweepers (DGS) - Huge changes; read first post.

[xpx]

@Obtaurian: I'm aware of this, I'm simply explaining why I bound a plate. As I stated, I had DPS binds for a large chunk of xp, and while I found it effective I didn't like the amount of concentration it required. I'm not disagreeing with your stance on DPS.

 

I would say, however, that to me binds have a minimal impact on how good a dungeoneer you are. Yes, we all have plates bound but we achieve good and consistent times, as I stated previously. Moreover, we can post these times for most of the day, and while I can't speak for anybody else I don't really fancy concentrating fully for that amount of time as I would have to with DPS binds.

DGS generally agrees with your interpretation about binds, but we are just very vary or getting people that are lazy, particularly as we focus on teaching.

 

As for DPS binds, they do make a significant difference for the slower(higher level mod) floors, speeding up the floor 1-2 minutes with perfect binds(1-2 hex, 1 ccs, 2-3 neck). For the very fastest floors, binds don't make a major difference at all(as they have very few gds).

[Foot]

Primal spear is incredibly useless, and the dude using it is just hurting his team. I remember when Grimy and Rocked bound them (both had hexhunters) because they were so bored of their prom 2hs, and they switched back real quick (this was before DGS).

 

Two blood necks and a hex is good, though. I'm an advocate for binding armor at 120 (might be because I'm primarily a keyer, I dunno).

 

Did you not watch the video? I still have my 2h. You're talking about people binding spears over a 2h, and I agree that's stupid. What you said was completely irrelevant.

[Obtaurian]

@Obtaurian: I'm aware of this, I'm simply explaining why I bound a plate. As I stated, I had DPS binds for a large chunk of xp, and while I found it effective I didn't like the amount of concentration it required. I'm not disagreeing with your stance on DPS.

 

I would say, however, that to me binds have a minimal impact on how good a dungeoneer you are. Yes, we all have plates bound but we achieve good and consistent times, as I stated previously. Moreover, we can post these times for most of the day, and while I can't speak for anybody else I don't really fancy concentrating fully for that amount of time as I would have to with DPS binds.

 

I agree that binds aren't the end-all, be-all of dungeoneering. However, if I had to choose between two teammates, both of equal dungeoneering skill but one having a plate and one having an offensive third bind, I would choose the player with the offensive bind, because that player is far more likely to lower the floor time through faster GDs and bosses.

 

It's the little things that make faster floors possible.

 

Primal spear is incredibly useless, and the dude using it is just hurting his team. I remember when Grimy and Rocked bound them (both had hexhunters) because they were so bored of their prom 2hs, and they switched back real quick (this was before DGS).

 

Two blood necks and a hex is good, though. I'm an advocate for binding armor at 120 (might be because I'm primarily a keyer, I dunno).

 

Did you not watch the video? I still have my 2h. You're talking about people binding spears over a 2h, and I agree that's stupid. What you said was completely irrelevant.

 

Nope, I didn't. I have no interest in it. Primal rapier is much better in the relevant categories than a primal spear, FYI.

 

EDIT:

Primal spear is incredibly useless, and the dude using it is just hurting his team.

 

^ This is still completely relevant.

[Andy]

Primal spear is incredibly useless, and the dude using it is just hurting his team. I remember when Grimy and Rocked bound them (both had hexhunters) because they were so bored of their prom 2hs, and they switched back real quick (this was before DGS).

 

Two blood necks and a hex is good, though. I'm an advocate for binding armor at 120 (might be because I'm primarily a keyer, I dunno).

 

Did you not watch the video? I still have my 2h. You're talking about people binding spears over a 2h, and I agree that's [developmentally delayed]ed.

Spear is still a [developmentally delayed]ed bind to have in the first place. Get a rapier.

What is the interest in posting on the dgs thread by the way?

[Foot]

Primal spear is incredibly useless, and the dude using it is just hurting his team. I remember when Grimy and Rocked bound them (both had hexhunters) because they were so bored of their prom 2hs, and they switched back real quick (this was before DGS).

 

Two blood necks and a hex is good, though. I'm an advocate for binding armor at 120 (might be because I'm primarily a keyer, I dunno).

 

Did you not watch the video? I still have my 2h. You're talking about people binding spears over a 2h, and I agree that's [developmentally delayed]ed.

Spear is still a [developmentally delayed]ed bind to have in the first place. Get a rapier.

What is the interest in posting on the dgs thread by the way?

 

I just bound it the day I made the video, I didn't know how good or bad it was. I figured a primal spear would be better than a promithium rapier. I didn't see a reason to hunt for a primal rapier when I'm 25m xp from 200m dungeoneering. Also, I wouldn't bind prom/primal gauntlets because nobody that I dg with very often has a hex.

 

I'm posting here to defend myself, of course.

 

EDIT:

Primal spear is incredibly useless, and the dude using it is just hurting his team.

 

^ This is still completely relevant.

 

You're saying a primal spear is worse than a 2h on high level dragons and black demons?

[massicist]

I think the disagreements are arising because you're talking about plate as a third bind, whereas all our plates are actually fourth binds.

 

We tend to have the DPS setup that xpx mentioned, with at least 1 hex and 1 CSB. If everyone bound an extra piece of DPS equipment, sure the dungeons may well be around a minute faster, but the pace would certainly be a lot harder to sustain for any length of time.

 

On a side note, I understand completely that you don't want people becoming lazy, and why you insist on a DPS as a third bind for members of your clan.

[Obtaurian]

Primal spear is incredibly useless, and the dude using it is just hurting his team. I remember when Grimy and Rocked bound them (both had hexhunters) because they were so bored of their prom 2hs, and they switched back real quick (this was before DGS).

 

Two blood necks and a hex is good, though. I'm an advocate for binding armor at 120 (might be because I'm primarily a keyer, I dunno).

 

Did you not watch the video? I still have my 2h. You're talking about people binding spears over a 2h, and I agree that's [developmentally delayed]ed.

Spear is still a [developmentally delayed]ed bind to have in the first place. Get a rapier.

What is the interest in posting on the dgs thread by the way?

 

I just bound it the day I made the video, I didn't know how good or bad it was. I figured a primal spear would be better than a promithium rapier. I didn't see a reason to hunt for a primal rapier when I'm 25m xp from 200m dungeoneering. Also, I wouldn't bind prom/primal gauntlets because nobody that I dg with very often has a hex.

 

I'm posting here to defend myself, of course.

 

Prom rapier is only about 2% worse than a primal rapier. For some reason primal weapons are only slightly better than their prom counterparts. Anyway, you could've just asked us and we could've told you what to bind if you were looking into secondary weapons. ;)

 

Gauntlets are fine. Stab weapons (rapiers, namely) are negatively affected by other teammates having hexes, not gauntlets.

[xpx]

I just bound it the day I made the video, I didn't know how good or bad it was. I figured a primal spear would be better than a promithium rapier. I didn't see a reason to hunt for a primal rapier when I'm 25m xp from 200m dungeoneering. Also, I wouldn't bind prom/primal gauntlets because nobody that I dg with very often has a hex.

 

I'm posting here to defend myself, of course.

Promethium rapier is 10-20% for stab and ~20% better for slash than primal spear, and as said, the 4-12 minutes it takes to get primal rapier is WELL worth it for the ~60 hours you'd be using it(unless you get a hex or neck, ofcource). Berserker ring basically made all spears worse than worthless, and as said, you are basically hurting your team with one.

[Soulthresher]

I am currently 71 dungeoneering, unlocked floor 36. Is it common for DGS to go to floors as low as 30-36 or should I continue playing with w117 to gain a few more levels?

 

Also, I don't understand why people want Primal Gauntlets, explain please.

[Obtaurian]

I am currently 71 dungeoneering, unlocked floor 36. Is it common for DGS to go to floors as low as 30-36 or should I continue playing with w117 to gain a few more levels?

 

Also, I don't understand why people want Primal Gauntlets, explain please.

 

We do floors 30+, so feel free to join the clan chat anytime.

 

Primal gauntlets augment the DPS of a primal battle significantly. Furthermore, there's no territory struggle with gauntlets (ie, hexes competing with rapiers or CCS users competing with other CCS users for ess/fires).

[xpx]

I am currently 71 dungeoneering, unlocked floor 36. Is it common for DGS to go to floors as low as 30-36 or should I continue playing with w117 to gain a few more levels?

 

Also, I don't understand why people want Primal Gauntlets, explain please.

It's a nonrare 3rd bind(neck and hex are rare or extremely rare) that increases your overall melee dps by around 6%(+12 str bonus).

 

Most people in dgs do floors 30+, although floors 30-35 will have slower teams for lower levels.

[Cdundee1]

I don't really understand this clan. Quite a few people I know say it's the only real competition to 3BO, yet whenever I try a floor here it's like 26 minutes (ie meh).

 

I key an average of around 22 with friends and 3BO randoms with a low total of 2285 or so, and the one attraction this clan has for me would be the ability to actually do skill doors...but I don't trust most of the clan to be anywhere near a standard I expect. And the dgers with good levels I actually know are all 3BO members (Spartan, Foot, think I saw Deviant Lips post somewhere)...

 

For the record Foot's a great dger, having fun with a spear isn't a reason to rage L.

[Andy]

Exactly why did you make an account here to talk about 3bo?

[xpx]

I don't really understand this clan. Quite a few people I know say it's the only real competition to 3BO, yet whenever I try a floor here it's like 26 minutes (ie meh).

 

I key an average of around 22 with friends and 3BO randoms with a low total of 2285 or so, and the one attraction this clan has for me would be the ability to actually do skill doors...but I don't trust most of the clan to be anywhere near a standard I expect. And the dgers with good levels I actually know are all 3BO members (Spartan, Foot, think I saw Deviant Lips post somewhere)...

 

For the record Foot's a great dger, having fun with a spear isn't a reason to rage L.

3BO requires 105(110) dungeoneering, DGS requires 45 defense.

 

3BO is a floor finding clan chat, DGS is a clan where people work on getting better and making other people around you better.

 

3BO is ignorant to new developements of dungeoneering, DGS works actively on research and on developing new strategies for dungeoneering.

 

 

The fact is, before 105 dungeoneering, DGS is the better clan, and the people over 105 dungeoneering in dgs(of whom most are ranks) are better than the average 3BO-er. Where 3BO has the advantage is with maxed, 120 dungeoneers with 4 binds teaming up together, but that's only a small portion of 3bo teams.

 

We aren't raging about the spear, just pointing out what a stupid bind it is. Foot is well-respected in many areas of where efficiency matters, so it's hard to understand him not understanding the difference between rapier and spear.

[Obtaurian]

I don't really understand this clan. Quite a few people I know say it's the only real competition to 3BO, yet whenever I try a floor here it's like 26 minutes (ie meh).

 

I've never seen you in the clan chat. :huh:

 

I key an average of around 22 with friends and 3BO randoms with a low total of 2285 or so, and the one attraction this clan has for me would be the ability to actually do skill doors...but I don't trust most of the clan to be anywhere near a standard I expect. And the dgers with good levels I actually know are all 3BO members (Spartan, Foot, think I saw Deviant Lips post somewhere)...

 

Some 3BO members are good (mostly only ranks), but you have to consider that our 80+ and 90+ dungeoneers get the same floor times as the average 3BO team (110+), and lower than the average 3BO team with a ranked keyer. Ultimately our goals are very different from 3BO. It's not about competition. Rather, we cater to a specific group of people, and we hold those people to higher standards than 3BO members are used to.

 

For the record Foot's a great dger, having fun with a spear isn't a reason to rage L.

 

I think you're confusing rage with informing him that his decision is a bad one.

[Cdundee1]

Then why are your floors 5-8 minutes slower lawl.

 

It's also debatable whether a staff for hitting 30% more on 5% of all monsters in a dungeon is worth losing a plate for.

[Squisher_33]

I don't really understand this clan. Quite a few people I know say it's the only real competition to 3BO, yet whenever I try a floor here it's like 26 minutes (ie meh).

 

I key an average of around 22 with friends and 3BO randoms with a low total of 2285 or so, and the one attraction this clan has for me would be the ability to actually do skill doors...but I don't trust most of the clan to be anywhere near a standard I expect. And the dgers with good levels I actually know are all 3BO members (Spartan, Foot, think I saw Deviant Lips post somewhere)...

 

For the record Foot's a great dger, having fun with a spear isn't a reason to rage L.

 

yea 3bo times greatly depend on how well you konw the people, i key like 26s in 3bo with randomers, and 20s with guys i know

 

26s in dgs might be the reverse affect, you didnt know many people and vise versa, i can easily see why you did a 26 with people whos style you arent used to yet

 

spartan foot and liz arent in dgs, most 120s in dgs use 3bo for their kalger floors (such as myself) and do the rest with well known teams in 3bo

 

you should know that keying does depend on a good team tho, with random dgsers 26 sounds about right, but with me and some of the other ranks i can actualy average about 16-19 minute occ/warps which surpases the 3bo standards im used to

 

theres a variety of skill in both clans so theres bad teams for both, but i personaly do faster times in dgs due to knowing the people better and they respond to me better

 

as for the celestial staff comment, i mentioned above your not used to the dgs style, well we like offensive 3rd/4th binds and prefer not to use armor (im hex blood 2h hood), while most 3boers prefer full primal

 

using armor makes things easier, but with a good deal of practice youll find its very esay to get survivor withot armor, and offensive binds actualy make the dung go faster since gds get done 10-15% faster, this is 1 advantage dgs has for doing faster floors if 5 guys have offensive 3rd/4ths

 

and ccs isnt used on 5% of monsters, its actualy worth it on about half. keep in mind that ccs with fire surge actualy outdamages primal 2h by a longshot, with abuot 20% more dps so anything thats mage weak and melee weak at the same time, statt is still better, so staff hits considerably harder even on all zombies and all skeles (on top of the obvious surged monsters like brutes and warriors)

 

know more people and learn a bit of our style then youll do yourself some sub 20s and see that the rumors you heard from "quite a few people" are in fact more than true

[xpx]

Then why are your floors 5-8 minutes slower lawl.

 

It's also debatable whether a staff for hitting 30% more on 5% of all monsters in a dungeon is worth losing a plate for.

Nonmaxed keyers with only ranked teammates can easily do 18-20 minute average floors, and i don't think there are many in 3bo who can manage under that.

 

CCS has 37,5% bonus damage, and with fire surge, beats primal 2h with turmoil for over 60% of the monsters(although fire runes can be a problem). With CCS bind, you'd be maging about 40% of the monsters, which is definitely worth the bind. Mage weak monsters really aren't as rare as you might think, and as everyone would use 2h in 3BO, the dps increase is VERY significant(battleaxe with turmoil would beat fire surge with CCS). This is exactly why we put so much emphasis on research.

[Cdundee1]

Well I'm 117 dungeoneering, BN/P2H/Hood/T10 zerker if any keyer ranks are interested ins showing me a 16-19 minute average. I'm not doubting or trying to bash you guys, but I'd like to see these claims in effect.

 

As for the staff, it's going to increase your DPS without a doubt, but you are going to die more so unless your staff makes the dungeon 3%~ faster you're wasting XP, which again is hard to see considering the only rooms you won't be doing at max speed with p2h turmoil flashing are mercs, high level black drags and black demons, and mage only works affectively on one of those.

 

 

Edit: to clear this up I've never used a plate, and I plan on primal gauntlets as my 4th bind, because I suicide key most of my floors to keep it fun.

[green9090]

Then why are your floors 5-8 minutes slower lawl.

 

It's also debatable whether a staff for hitting 30% more on 5% of all monsters in a dungeon is worth losing a plate for.

You're asking why the floors you do with members who are 10-20 levels lower than 3bo's minimum requirement are slower than the 3bo floors you do with high level 3boers you already know? I could go the exact opposite and ask why a team with 5 DGS ranks will destroy a random 3bo team. It's because it isn't a fair comparison.

 

If you've dungeoneered with a plate for millions of exp, I can see how your combat mechanics would be rusty enough that you can't imagine surviving without one. In all the videos of people with plate (and sometimes legs!) bound that have been posted here, it's clear that they don't know the first thing about intelligent room clearing, because the fact that they all have the same weapon and enough armor to not give a [cabbage] means that they don't have to learn any tricks. They just whack everything until it dies. When you step outside of your comfort zone for a while and try surviving without a plate, you learn how, and then you can make yourself useful by having better binds.

 

Put it this way- you put an experienced DGSer in a plate, and they could survive the floor on a couple food with good combat mechanics and soul split flashing. That's not what we see in 3bo- we see people too stupid to prevent any damage, using the plate as a crutch, and eating as much food as they should be using without the plate. I can't tell you the number of times I've picked up a 3bo random and seen them derping around with a plate bind and a worldbearer full of food. That's why we see plate as a derp bind. It doesn't have to be a derp bind for keyers (though it will never be better for a DPS), but it is way too often the mark of a complete idiot.

[Cdundee1]

I'm not defending 3BO either, 90% of it is complete [cabbage]. But the other 10% are the ones I get on my friends list that: flash soul split and turmoil, make melees, have hhb/bn, listen 100%, hit monsters as they go by to doors etc. etc.

 

 

 

And the comparison is probably quite close considering the 3 or so floors I've done with DGS have all been keyed by a keyer rank, with people they're familiar with.

[la la la]

I'm really sickened by people digressing to flaming others for how they play the game. Dungeoneering is a multiplayer activity in which you can choose who you team with. If someone is doing something incorrect and refuses to fix it, don't team up with them. Don't let them join your clan. Don't talk to them... it doesn't really matter what. It's immature to focus so much in pointing out flaws of others that you cannot focus on your own goals and improvement.

 

I think frat guys are annoying in their endless pursuit of beer and women. I don't like what they do, and it certainly an xp waste, so as a result, I don't hang out with too many of them. Am I going to go out of my way to flame them for the way they live their lives? Of course not.

 

Moving on, it's hard to compare DGS and 3bo because they are so different at the heart. With a clan like 3bo, based on raw experience selectivity over ability selectivity, you can't be as sure of what you're getting. From what I've seen, it's much easier to find constant rows of floors, albeit mostly slower than DGS floors. 3bo just doesn't have the infrastructure for quality control. Additionally, with a team that is more difficult to trust (partially because of a larger clan community), defensive binds can prevail, as members are typically much more selfish (myself included) when they have little personal investment in the team as a whole.

 

DGS focuses on improving individual floors and selecting community members who are set on doing the same. We are more research and learning-focused, and fewer of our members are able to commit to the longer rows that 3bo members can do. Like the efficiency discussion, this always moves to finger-pointing and flaming, when we need to just accept our differences and move on.

[SirIzenhime]

You're saying a primal spear is worse than a 2h on high level dragons and black demons?

 

No he isn't, don't put words into people's mouths when you try to defend yourself, it doesn't work.

He's saying a Promethieum rapier is better then a Primal Spear on Dragons and demons.

The reason the Primal spear is "useless" is because there is always a better bind, no matter what situation you try to justify using the spear in. In your case specifically, your spear would better help your team if it was a primal, even promethiem, rapier.

 

Then why are your floors 5-8 minutes slower lawl.

 

 

Because the floor times you're trying to compare are those of non-ranked keyers and low level dungeoneerers from DGS

And max 3BO members.

If you actually read xpx's response well enough, that would have be stupidly obvious.

[Quyneax]

with p2h turmoil flashing are mercs, high level black drags and black demons

Don't forget zombies (best use rapier/battleaxe on those, or mage) and skeletons (battleaxe again, or mage) or shades (rapier, battleaxe) or how about any forgotten mage/ranger a few tiers below max (rapier/battleaxe again) or perhaps brutes (rapier, mage) etc. etc.

[xpx]

with p2h turmoil flashing are mercs, high level black drags and black demons

Don't forget zombies (best use rapier/battleaxe on those, or mage) and skeletons (battleaxe again, or mage) or shades (rapier, battleaxe) or how about any forgotten mage/ranger a few tiers below max (rapier/battleaxe again) or perhaps brutes (rapier, mage) etc. etc.

I don't think there is anything(and if there is, not by much) a primal 2h with turm flashing will be the absolute best weapon for. For this to be the case, the monster would need to have >400 def max hit against slash(and higher against stab and crush) plus have high defense against both ranged and mage. The only ones i can realistically think of are 5:5 thundy or gulega, but even those might not have enough def(and it would be stupid to not rager gulega anyway). 2h is a great overall weapon, but it only really shines against high defense, and every monster in deamonheim is weak to something(thus it's basically the best weapon to use against things it shouldn't be used against).