TIF is bit over-moderated

[Blyaunte]

"my scripts can be legal 1:1, but not as they are currently"

Again boils down to the user. If they prefer, they can use the Move functions instead of the Click functions. And if you look, for ever Click function on that thread, there is a move one to do the equivalent as 1:1.

 

Um -- you DO realize that you're arguing the attributes of "game-play" with someone who doesn't even play, right? :unsure:

[obfuscator]

"my scripts can be legal 1:1, but not as they are currently"

Again boils down to the user. If they prefer, they can use the Move functions instead of the Click functions. And if you look, for ever Click function on that thread, there is a move one to do the equivalent as 1:1.

 

Um -- you DO realize that you're arguing the attributes of "game-play" with someone who doesn't even play, right? :unsure:

So because I no longer play runescape I can't possibly hope to understand the technical aspects of a scripting language not even intended for runescape?

[Aiel]

We don't allow this kind of discussion on that thread, even if it's not insulting, so what I've done is I've merged your post (that was actually constructive) on to this topic, where it can be properly discussed. See my response below (the post is near the top of this page).

If we dont allow discussion there, why is that thread unlocked? or why isn't it here where you DO allow that kind of discussion?

 

I can't speak (and won't) on his forum involvement, but as for the signature rules I have this to say:

 

Yes, your sig was probably largely harmless. But it did technically break rules, and as a result it was removed. We have rules for a reason, and they should be enforced. If there's really nothing at all wrong with having an oversized sig, why should we bother having the rules at all?

 

I'd also like to mention that just because it was Jimmy who removed your signature doesn't mean he was just viewing the forums, saw yours and decided "No one else would remove that, I will". We discuss these things quite a bit as a collective, and then somebody takes action. I can safetly say that if your sig was over, it would have been removed by anyone on staff; Jimmy was merely the mod who was on to do so at the time.

 

Personally, I've had to remove my own signature once or twice even after being a moderator, I didn't realize that I had too many lines of text, or a big image, or whatever. Even though it was harmless, and not "what the rule was intended to prevent" per se, I still removed it with good grace because it breaks the rules.

 

The fact is, that I had that signature for several months, and nothing was ever done about it in that time. The 6 lines of text with an image is obviously meant to prevent a large image along with a lot of text, and as I said earlier its not really a strong interpretation of the rules, I could just of easily had a link with "slayer is the only option." and it would have been the same size/effect.

[Danqazmlp]

I don't quite see your point on the signature issue. If it violated the rules, then it was a just removal. I doesn't matter how long it went un-noticed or how far over the rules it was. It is a very black and white case.

[obfuscator]

We don't allow this kind of discussion on that thread, even if it's not insulting, so what I've done is I've merged your post (that was actually constructive) on to this topic, where it can be properly discussed. See my response below (the post is near the top of this page).

If we dont allow discussion there, why is that thread unlocked? or why isn't it here where you DO allow that kind of discussion?

 

The purpose of that thread is solely to announce to the forum at large that a new administrator was appointed, it's open to allow people to congratulate if they so wish.

 

I can't speak (and won't) on his forum involvement, but as for the signature rules I have this to say:

 

Yes, your sig was probably largely harmless. But it did technically break rules, and as a result it was removed. We have rules for a reason, and they should be enforced. If there's really nothing at all wrong with having an oversized sig, why should we bother having the rules at all?

 

I'd also like to mention that just because it was Jimmy who removed your signature doesn't mean he was just viewing the forums, saw yours and decided "No one else would remove that, I will". We discuss these things quite a bit as a collective, and then somebody takes action. I can safetly say that if your sig was over, it would have been removed by anyone on staff; Jimmy was merely the mod who was on to do so at the time.

 

Personally, I've had to remove my own signature once or twice even after being a moderator, I didn't realize that I had too many lines of text, or a big image, or whatever. Even though it was harmless, and not "what the rule was intended to prevent" per se, I still removed it with good grace because it breaks the rules.

 

The fact is, that I had that signature for several months, and nothing was ever done about it in that time. The 6 lines of text with an image is obviously meant to prevent a large image along with a lot of text, and as I said earlier its not really a strong interpretation of the rules, I could just of easily had a link with "slayer is the only option." and it would have been the same size/effect.

 

If it hadn't been removed for several months, that just means no one noticed it. And if you could have had a link that would have accomplished the same purpose within the rules, then it wouldn't have been removed.

[Aiel]

Your both proving my point rather nicely, which is that rules shouldn't be interpreted black and white, to the letter, they need to be interpreted with the original intent behind them in mind, and with the specific instance in which they occur in mind.

[obfuscator]

Your both proving my point rather nicely, which is that rules shouldn't be interpreted black and white, to the letter, they need to be interpreted with the original intent behind them in mind, and with the specific instance in which they occur in mind.

Clearly we disagree. There are some rules, yes, that are open to interpretation and "moderator discretion". But I tend to think that isn't a good thing, because rules that are open to "moderator discretion" tend to be quite arbitrary and often different moderators will do different things which gives the appearance of being unfair.

 

For example, part of the reason this whole issue started is because we were put in a situation of dealing with rulebreaking where we were forced to "guess intent" behind the rulebreaking. We guessed wrong, and as a result, well, here we are. We generally can guess intent (when we have to) with a pretty high success rate, but we're only human, and bound to be wrong sometimes. If we limit the ambiguity in the rules and by extension limit occasions where we have to guess at intent we can enforce our policies much more fairly and consistently.

 

That's why as much as possible we try to have rules that are black and white; you either broke it or you didn't. Our signature rule (in regards to size at least) is one such rule; yours clearly violated it so it was removed.

[Jaffy1]

To be fair, signatures are bound by very specific rules; limits that you choose to either cross or abide by.

When I was new to the forums I didn't fully understand that either, and I got my signatures removed once or twice as a result, so I understand what you mean, but limits are limits.

 

What you are saying is like commenting on a police officer giving someone a speeding ticket; "It was only a few Km/h too much. I get why there's a speeding limit, but I wasn't actually doing anything dangerous going 60 instead of 50."

 

It's also not fair towards others that do abide by the limits set. If there is one specific rule for everyone to follow, it is only fair to act the same towards all of the violating users.

 

As far as the to-the-letter thing goes:

In my experience as a moderator in a different community, I must say users did claim to appreciate my treating everyone equally and in accordance with the rules. There were a few mods that used "their disgression" in favour of certain users, and this was frowned upon by many in the community.

 

Sure, leniency is good, and rules can be on the strict side, but that does not mean users should not be treated equally. The same limits should apply for everyone.

[tripsis]

In regards to the signature thing, I totally and completely understand how only barely going over the limits can seem like a silly reason to have a signature removed. I've seen signatures that are 5 pixels over the limit and I've actually said, "Do I really have to remove this?" It seems silly - right? Although in situations like that I usually provide the user with a resized image that is within the rules.

 

But the point is we have to draw the line somewhere. If something is 1 line over the limit and we let it slide, then what about 2? It's not really that much more.. but then it's a slippery slope and not only do we start to question our actions, but our users pull the fairness/consistency card on us (i.e. "Why did you remove my signature but not his??? His was over the limit too!").

 

So I totally understand how it can seem silly, overzealous, etc., but we have these rules for a reason and if we let some instances slide, it's not fair to other people. We have to be as fair and consistent as possible.

[Nifflin]

It's not about the signatures, the point is the type of moderator Jimmy has been. Would April 15th have been as big a [cabbage] storm without him? Probably not.

[All_Is_Great]

Blaming it on 1 person is the way to go.

[Lose No Hope]

Who is blaming it on one person? He was a big part of what happened, but it was in no way completely him and no one is saying it was all him.

 

Edit: realized i forgot to add in the ending bit.

[All_Is_Great]

What

[Youmu]

Come on, we all make mistakes, and only from those do we see room for improvement.

 

Give him some time. Maybe he'll help sort this whole issue out eventually.

[Stev]

It's not about the signatures, the point is the type of moderator Jimmy has been. Would April 15th have been as big a [cabbage] storm without him? Probably not.

What'd I miss on April 15th? ...Or did I hear about it and just not put the correct date to it? >.<

 

If it's not permissible to post it, then please don't bother. :).

[das]

Enough.

 

As someone with insider knowledge, and dare i say someone who had the ability to see every facet behind the wall for close to three years, I can't help but feel the rage at Jimmy_Jim is misguided and ignorant. As far as moderator actions that he did to my knowledge on that magical 14th/15th date. I remember two spambot Ban's - some forum game stuff and thats about it. I investigated his "actions" prior to resignation and found that ignorantly actions of others were lumped towards him.

 

Even IF IT WAS HIM HYPOTHETICALLY - his actions or whoever [bleep]ed up that day, really don't matter in terms of his promotion to administrator.

 

Why? I've had the pleasure, or curse, of being "behind" the wall and seeing every silly little detail for over three years, I was part of the team that hired, trained, and promoted jimmy from a local to a supermod. He may of made some mistakes - every administrator on this forum probably has, I know although most people point to me as a positive force, I can only say that I too made many mistakes in general over 3 years and would change how I did several things. if I could go back over my 3 years. Jimmy is dedicated, user driven and a guy who cares about making tip.it a better community. He's got a good head on his shoulders and is a fair guy.

 

What's done - is done, blood is without a doubt metaphorically on both parties hands to varying degrees over different instances. He who without sin cast the first stone. The past oh 15 or 20 pages, It's mainly been raging [puncture]s verus's a staff who is trying to maintain an integrity of the game too few people give a flying [bleep] about. As someone who has once all but bent over backwards to try to help smooth over the miscommunications - your attitude has turned me - as a user who is browsing for the "lulz" - off completely.

 

The script situation is messed up, but overall to protect the integrity of the game - I do support the choice to limit exposure to those script's until Jagex clarifies them and personally can't say it's a bad call. it's old fashioned, a bit heavy handed, but hey, Tip.it Staff probably cares more about keeping the game cheat free than Jagex does. As for the wait time - I can say i'm a bit surprised, but it's not the first time a "big" response has taken time from them.

 

What I don't get - is why are you guys are still here. You're butthurt over "the 15th" still think tip.it staff is on a downward spiral of whatever adjective you want to use - and still here fighting like it's life and death. To be bluntly critical, I think the only reason you're half as upset with the sig removals is it killed your only real advertising for your site. i''ve looked around on a fake name - it's not that active and bustling with life as most new startups are typically.

 

Personally I'd like to see the script [cabbage] dropped (an answer will come soon enough, i'd wager, and until then - it's a giant pissing contest) and the discussion actually focus on other examples of overmoderation if they exist.

 

Why do I say *if* they exist? in my three years, I probably handled oh 10 or 15 complaints of biased moderation. Thats it. I'd say of those 15 cases at most, maybe 1 or 2 were biased on our part. We addressed those cases swiftly and looking back at the users who made the complaints - I can tell you they are not bitter and as angsty/angry as you guys are.

 

 

I know someone will flame the [bleep] out of me for this, I'm aware that this view won't be popular, but it's my view. I'm not saying it to kiss ass to come back, because to be honest, coming back is one of the last things right now I want to do, it's a time consuming, [cabbage]ty, thankless job that eats up your free time and stresses you the [bleep] out. I'm sure if I was masochistic or stupid enough to want to come back, they'd take me regardless of my views on this subject.

 

 

Lastly in closing.

 

Y_Guy doesn't play runescape anymore - But I can tell you as far as clans go - he's one of the most knowledgeable, dedicated, hardworking son's of a gun i've met. If I was running a buisness, I'd hire him without hesitation. He's a professional and by far, Him, Nobody, Laikrob, kim and everyone who has ever been clan staff were beyond amazing. I can safely say with confidence when it comes for me being a part of that team - i was always the weakest link.

 

am i putting myself down? Nope - I'd say I was pretty damn useful and awesome - but it's a TEAM effort, and as a whole, the tip.it team is user minded and very concerned with making this the most kick ass place ever. That goes from Crew to Tet to Clans to Editorals to Mod's because together they are one. It's a team of volunteers, worldwide. not perfect, not flawless, but overall, some of the best people i've ever managed, and i get paid to manage people in real life and often at times found the group here, more professional, dedicated and hardworking. And these guys work lots of long hours in free tme for free. for the love of the community.

 

 

~Das

Tip.it User 2001-2011

[Grimy_Bunyip]

 

Enough.

 

As someone with insider knowledge, and dare i say someone who had the ability to see every facet behind the wall for close to three years, I can't help but feel the rage at Jimmy_Jim is misguided and ignorant. As far as moderator actions that he did to my knowledge on that magical 14th/15th date. I remember two spambot Ban's - some forum game stuff and thats about it. I investigated his "actions" prior to resignation and found that ignorantly actions of others were lumped towards him.

 

Even IF IT WAS HIM HYPOTHETICALLY - his actions or whoever [bleep]ed up that day, really don't matter in terms of his promotion to administrator.

 

Why? I've had the pleasure, or curse, of being "behind" the wall and seeing every silly little detail for over three years, I was part of the team that hired, trained, and promoted jimmy from a local to a supermod. He may of made some mistakes - every administrator on this forum probably has, I know although most people point to me as a positive force, I can only say that I too made many mistakes in general over 3 years and would change how I did several things. if I could go back over my 3 years. Jimmy is dedicated, user driven and a guy who cares about making tip.it a better community. He's got a good head on his shoulders and is a fair guy.

 

What's done - is done, blood is without a doubt metaphorically on both parties hands to varying degrees over different instances. He who without sin cast the first stone. The past oh 15 or 20 pages, It's mainly been raging [puncture]s verus's a staff who is trying to maintain an integrity of the game too few people give a flying [bleep] about. As someone who has once all but bent over backwards to try to help smooth over the miscommunications - your attitude has turned me - as a user who is browsing for the "lulz" - off completely.

 

The script situation is messed up, but overall to protect the integrity of the game - I do support the choice to limit exposure to those script's until Jagex clarifies them and personally can't say it's a bad call. it's old fashioned, a bit heavy handed, but hey, Tip.it Staff probably cares more about keeping the game cheat free than Jagex does. As for the wait time - I can say i'm a bit surprised, but it's not the first time a "big" response has taken time from them.

 

What I don't get - is why are you guys are still here. You're butthurt over "the 15th" still think tip.it staff is on a downward spiral of whatever adjective you want to use - and still here fighting like it's life and death. To be bluntly critical, I think the only reason you're half as upset with the sig removals is it killed your only real advertising for your site. i''ve looked around on a fake name - it's not that active and bustling with life as most new startups are typically.

 

Personally I'd like to see the script [cabbage] dropped (an answer will come soon enough, i'd wager, and until then - it's a giant pissing contest) and the discussion actually focus on other examples of overmoderation if they exist.

 

Why do I say *if* they exist? in my three years, I probably handled oh 10 or 15 complaints of biased moderation. Thats it. I'd say of those 15 cases at most, maybe 1 or 2 were biased on our part. We addressed those cases swiftly and looking back at the users who made the complaints - I can tell you they are not bitter and as angsty/angry as you guys are.

 

 

I know someone will flame the [bleep] out of me for this, I'm aware that this view won't be popular, but it's my view. I'm not saying it to kiss ass to come back, because to be honest, coming back is one of the last things right now I want to do, it's a time consuming, [cabbage]ty, thankless job that eats up your free time and stresses you the [bleep] out. I'm sure if I was masochistic or stupid enough to want to come back, they'd take me regardless of my views on this subject.

 

 

Lastly in closing.

 

Y_Guy doesn't play runescape anymore - But I can tell you as far as clans go - he's one of the most knowledgeable, dedicated, hardworking son's of a gun i've met. If I was running a buisness, I'd hire him without hesitation. He's a professional and by far, Him, Nobody, Laikrob, kim and everyone who has ever been clan staff were beyond amazing. I can safely say with confidence when it comes for me being a part of that team - i was always the weakest link.

 

am i putting myself down? Nope - I'd say I was pretty damn useful and awesome - but it's a TEAM effort, and as a whole, the tip.it team is user minded and very concerned with making this the most kick ass place ever. That goes from Crew to Tet to Clans to Editorals to Mod's because together they are one. It's a team of volunteers, worldwide. not perfect, not flawless, but overall, some of the best people i've ever managed, and i get paid to manage people in real life and often at times found the group here, more professional, dedicated and hardworking. And these guys work lots of long hours in free tme for free. for the love of the community.

 

 

~Das

Tip.it User 2001-2011

 

Nah, I'm pretty sure there's plenty of guys at TEF could do a better job of moderating than you guys, given the opportunity.

 

You want, so much, for us to respect you.

But you want that respect without any tangible effort from your behalf.

That's not how it works.

[Ginger_Warrior]

And with your vast experience of managing a 400-member strong forum, nobody's doubting you'd know what's best for a 200,000-strong forum.

[obfuscator]

Nah, I'm pretty sure there's plenty of guys at TEF could do a better job of moderating than you guys, given the opportunity.

 

You want, so much, for us to respect you.

But you want that respect without any tangible effort from your behalf.

That's not how it works.

 

Lol no tangible effort, when we've allowed a topic half full of flaming us with baseless accusations to get to forty pages.

No tangible effort, when our admins made a private forum for you guys to discuss grievances and chatted with you for hours.

No tangible effort, when we created a metagaming forum specifically for your community.

No tangible effort, when several mods and administrators took time out of our days to come to your forums to try to explain our actions and negotiate with people who only cared about throwing out insults.

 

But no, we don't care at all.

 

In regards to the moderators, in general our experience (ten + years of it) is that people who follow the rules make good moderators. Now, perhaps you feel that someone who breaks the rules frequently will do a great job enforcing them fairly and consistently, but surely you can see why we disagree.

[Nifflin]

I'm going to first refer to a popular psychology experiment;

 

Five monkeys were in a room that contained a table in one corner, and a banana hanging from a string in the middle of the room. The monkeys figured out that if they dragged the table to the middle of the room, they could climb up and grab the banana. So they did. As one of the monkeys quickly hopped up and reached for the banana, hidden compartments in the walls suddenly opened, releasing high-pressure cold water that knocked the monkey off the table and drenched the other four monkeys.

 

They quickly learned that whenever one of them climbed on the table, all of them were soaked with cold water. They realized climbing on top of the table was a bad idea. Unbeknownst to the monkeys, the high-pressure cold water hoses were disconnected and removed.

 

The next week, one of the five monkeys was removed from the room and replaced by a new monkey. The new monkey saw the table and the banana dangling from the ceiling. Realizing that the banana was there for the taking, the monkey headed for the table. But fearful of being drenched by the high-pressure cold water, the other four monkeys pounced on the newcomer and beat the tar out of him. Every time the new monkey got near the table, the others beat him up. Soon the new monkey no longer went near the table.

 

By the third week, another of the original five monkeys was replaced by a new monkey. And like the monkey the week before, the newest member of the group tried to get near the table to move it over to the banana. Once again, the others beat up the newest member of the group. Even the first new monkey joined in.

 

Each successive week, one more of the original monkeys was replaced. The same thing happened every time; when the newest monkey attempted to get near the table, the others joined in to discourage him.

 

By the sixth week, not a single monkey was left from the original group. Not one remained that had been squirted with cold water. But when the newest monkey headed toward the table and tried to reach the banana, the other four monkeys trained him by beating the tar out of him.

 

If you could ask each monkey why it was beating up the new monkey, each probably would say, I dont know, that is just the way we do things around here.

 

I think this can really be applied here. While following the rules is important they shouldn't be enforced senselessly without keeping the intent of the rule in mind. People can't really justify why they enforce the rules with a heavy hand, they just do it because that's how it's always been done. When the game changes and something like metagaming becomes popular, the rules are unable to shift to fit the emerging community. When Jagex abandons all attempts at fighting botting the rules here are still fascist when it come to botting. Intent is never considered, of either users or the rules.

 

Just something to chew on...

[muggiwhplar]

But metagaming isnt popular >_> people who follow it are a minority.

[Racheya]

I honestly don't understand why members of TEF who feel mistreated by Tip.It are still here. Don't you have your own thriving community of likeminded people on TEF now? You don't have to worry about moderation or whether or not you can post this link or what... Why waste your time with petty arguments here when you have a better place to go to?

[obfuscator]

@Nifflin: Except we've constantly explained why our rules make sense and are the way they are.

[Nifflin]

@Y_Guy Explain the why the burden of proof is the way it is in the metagaming forum. There are other examples but that's a blatant one.

 

@Rach I can only speak for myself. The staff here I feel in conflict with is a minority of the total users and there are plenty of other reasonable people that I can discuss things with here. Most of us stick around both forums and would actually like to improve it here, TEF was originally supposed to be temporary if changes here were made. TEF is amazing for some things and TIF is good for some things. That's why I personally choose to stay on both.

[obfuscator]

@Y_Guy Explain the why the burden of proof is the way it is in the metagaming forum. There are other examples but that's a blatant one.

 

I'm not sure what you're asking...