20-Aug-2013 - Divination

[Quyneax]

Well, Divination is click crud, get crud, dump crud (???), get xp. You're essentially moving crud from A to B and you get crud as payment for that. It's a porter skill >.>.

 

My skill idea actually scraps the dump crud step, which makes it more sensible as well as easier. You just need to heal (or suicide).

 

Obviously, yes, the internal mechanics are more complex than 1+1. But that goes for things like the mining success rate/effect of pickaxes too, and hatchets are even different - this is simple by comparison.

 

Plus that complexity is actually fun, but I guess not everybody appreciates that. At least it's optional.

 

Mining/woodcutting/fishing are first of all not the same (more complex, anyway, and therefore better), and if they were, it would be a bad thing. A fresh skill idea is much better.

[PolarBearBlue]

Well, Divination is click crud, get crud, dump crud (???), get xp. You're essentially moving crud from A to B and you get crud as payment for that. It's a porter skill >.>.

 

My skill idea actually scraps the dump crud step, which makes it more sensible as well as easier. You just need to heal (or suicide).

 

That is probably the offsetting pat for me. Gathering skill a relatively safe depending on where you train, and even dangerous areas are safe due to new method of training/new updates/continuous training in other skills. For example, in LRC I quick hop mine at the southeastern most gold rock, where the living rock creatures can't get you unless you come out of the cut. The real danger I have is just making it there and when I step out to spawn my lava titan so it can stop spamming my box. LRC fishing is much more dangerous, but I enjoy a bit more protection doing it on world 84 with 1000 other people/bots there. Another example woodcutting on the fremmy isle or Feldip Hill. Before those mobs were a huge pita because the attacked you and interrupted your training. But I didn't have to woodcut there. That was just one area of training. With a high enough combat level thou, I can relax a little.

 

Even if the risk of death has been reduced to getting a papercut, what you seem to suggest is not a single area of training where you cut out the porter part of the skill for relative danger, but entire skill itself. That's kinda bothers me, because I've always associated gathering skill as a relaxing part of scape that takes you away from worry of death if you so choose it.

[Quyneax]

I don't really care about making a skill that ticks all the boxes of 'gathering skill' that we had before. In my opinion, a gathering skill produces items that aren't useful except to be turned into other items by other skills. In that sense, Divination already isn't a gathering skill. In that sense, my suggestion is still a gathering skill, even though you take damage.

 

I can say that I always associated gathering skills with useless high-level content, high-xp mid-level content and the lower levels are just rushed through. Divination already overturns that, why not make it actually interesting and involved in the game as well? You don't need Divination to afk runespan, go get rank 1 esteem if that's what you want. New skills are about new mechanics.

 

Also, don't forget that provided you avoid the enriched nodes, you can afk my skill perfectly well, you just need to drink prayer potions and break off any nodes that take too long to end naturally.

[Flyingjj]

The overall mechanic isn't the problem, it's the adding of random skills making you better at it that makes it overly complex. Why should you take damage? If you take damage, it means you need a high constitution to train it well(I know the primary damage is % based, but it still seems like you are being punished for success). Also, prayers to decrease damage taken while training a skill? Magic to speed it up but increase damage taken? Temporary negative levels in unrelated skills? All of this together seems like the beginnings of a Divination mini-game rather than a skill. If you tie everything together like that, it makes it almost impossible to train as a stand-alone skill. What if I hate prayer and magic, but divination is my favorite skill? I can't train it because I'd take too much damage. While tying skills together is good in theory, I think it's a concept best saved for minigames rather than actually the primary training method.

[Quyneax]

You should take damage because Guthix' power/the Anima Mundi is too powerful for you to control, especially considering that we are new to this type of energy. Apparently we can just perfectly capture these memories, but to me it seems that this kind of unknown but god-defying power should be dangerous. Given that it is a type of semi-divine energy, it seems to me Magic and Prayer should be involved. Constitution is involved because it has to do with the ability to withstand great power directed at the body. Tell me, why is Hunter of all things involved with catching memories? Isn't that a matter of Magic, Summoning, Prayer?

 

If you don't want to train prayer and magic, you will be stuck at lower nodes, or you'll have to suicide for health. Prayer and magic only speed up the skill. Right now, there is absolutely no way of speeding up the skill. That's just really boring. Slayer, dungoneering - those are the good skills. Lots of things to speed them up, those things can also be trained through them (e.g. train strength through slayer, train all skills through dg). Divination should be the same - of course disrupting a node gives magic xp, for all I care you add small hp/prayer gains too.

 

===

 

It seems that people are a bit unclear still about what the design is.

 

First of all, you siphon nodes normally. You get energy and xp at the end. You also take damage at the end. If a node lasts long, you take more damage and get more energy. If a node lasts so long that you believe you will die from the damage, you can choose to cut it short with magic. If you don't want to take lp damage, you can use prayer instead. If you don't want the effort of dealing with negative levels, ignore the enriched nodes. If you don't want the effort of healing/restoring prayer, just suicide, teleport back and loot your grave. All sorts of options here. Suiciding is annoying and slow, but you don't need anything for it. Eating food requires quite a bit of inventory space. You can carry more prayer, but it costs more. You can use familiars to heal more per inventory space and cheaper. But all of these are just expansions for the basic idea, that you attempt to control energy, and in doing so, take risks.

[Urza285]

Dude are we still complaining about divination?

[Kaida23]

Dude, people are still complaining about Dungeoneering. :P

[kamil1210]

Divination is normal gathering skills.

 

player gather energy

player can convert it (for faster xp) or keep it

 

other gathering skills:

player gather ores/fishesh/animals

player can drop it (for faster xp) ot keep it

[PolarBearBlue]

Dude are we still complaining about divination?

 

It's not a complaint, it's a suggestion for the skill. All Quyneax has been doing is making suggestion for the skill.

 

You should take damage because Guthix' power/the Anima Mundi is too powerful for you to control, especially considering that we are new to this type of energy. Apparently we can just perfectly capture these memories, but to me it seems that this kind of unknown but god-defying power should be dangerous. Given that it is a type of semi-divine energy, it seems to me Magic and Prayer should be involved. Constitution is involved because it has to do with the ability to withstand great power directed at the body. Tell me, why is Hunter of all things involved with catching memories? Isn't that a matter of Magic, Summoning, Prayer?

 

If you don't want to train prayer and magic, you will be stuck at lower nodes, or you'll have to suicide for health. Prayer and magic only speed up the skill. Right now, there is absolutely no way of speeding up the skill. That's just really boring. Slayer, dungoneering - those are the good skills. Lots of things to speed them up, those things can also be trained through them (e.g. train strength through slayer, train all skills through dg). Divination should be the same - of course disrupting a node gives magic xp, for all I care you add small hp/prayer gains too.

 

I see your point now, thinking about it a little more. But we do have that unexplained power Guthix gave us at the end of TWW. Maybe that could explain why we don't need to take damage.

 

I don't really care about making a skill that ticks all the boxes of 'gathering skill' that we had before. In my opinion, a gathering skill produces items that aren't useful except to be turned into other items by other skills. In that sense, Divination already isn't a gathering skill.

 

We still are left with the second skill which would make Divination a gathering skill. So we really don't know this skills potential until the second skill comes out. It seemed from the little AMA they had Jagex does have plans to flesh this out more as we get closer to the second skill.

 

Personally I feel like just waiting this out for a few months and seeing what plans are made for this skill as we get closer to whatever the second skill is. The skill is still just an infant much like Dungeoneering was before we found things/changes were made that made this skill faster. But I do agree with your earlier suggestion to tie this skill in with the others. Does feel a bit closed off...

[Wkw]

I think it would be a lot better it we didn't have to dump what. we are. harvesting if we want more xp

 

that is all. Mining fishing wc don't force you to choose between xp and resources

[Saradomin_Mage]

Memories are just a byproduct, not the resource, and you can choose to turn them in for XP if you want. You can then sacrifice some of your extra resources for extra XP, if you don't want them, similar to dropping iron ore/barb fishing.

[PolarBearBlue]

Nor does Divination. You can keep the energy for yourself. It's the same way with drop mining/fishing. You get more xp/hr if you drop the resources rather than bank them. You get more xp/hr dumping the energy rather than saving it. But you don't have to dump it...

 

Ninja'd: GTFO GWY

[kamil1210]

I think it would be a lot better it we didn't have to dump what. we are. harvesting if we want more xp

 

that is all. Mining fishing wc don't force you to choose between xp and resources

Nothing in RuneScape force you to do anything. You can take xp or cash. You want more xp? Ok, but this is your decision.

You are wrong for wc and fish

 

fishing:

fast: barbarian fishing - you get good xp but 0 items

slow: rocktails - you get slow xp but many items

 

wc:

fast: sawmill - you get good xp but 0 items

slow: magic/yew - you get slow xp but many items

 

mining

fast: sawmill - you get good xp and many items

slow: runite ore - you get slow xp but good items

[Urza285]

I was referring to this whole thread in general...

 

Again - dude, people are still complaining? Train it... find its niche uses for yourself and move on.

[Quyneax]

I see your point now, thinking about it a little more. But we do have that unexplained power Guthix gave us at the end of TWW. Maybe that could explain why we don't need to take damage.

I considered that, but I don't think all the people in the base camp, Max and such are in the same place we are. You don't have to do TWW to train Divination either.

 

I do agree that we will need to wait to see how the second skill integrates with Divination, particularly with training it at the same time. But I'm not hopeful. I think that memories should have been removed for example, just like the whole pit thing.

 

@Urza: Dude, still complaining about people writing on-topic posts? Try getting on-topic constructive and move on.

[Saradomin_Mage]

The memories fit in thematically with Divination as they are fragments of the very damaged Anima Mundi, and by returning them you help to repair the damage to Gielinor. What you're harvesting from the wisps are the remnants of the energy of a dead god, a world barrier and the Anima Mundi. Solid memories are more complete and can be used to repair the damage more efficiently, or broken down to have their energy extracted.

 

Likewise, the barrier that Guthix built was intended to keep the gods out. There's no reason that this shield should hurt the mortal races that Guthix brought to Gielinor, regardless of whether they've been especially blessed or not.

[PolarBearBlue]

The memories fit in thematically with Divination as they are fragments of the very damaged Anima Mundi, and by returning them you help to repair the damage to Gielinor. What you're harvesting from the wisps are the remnants of the energy of a dead god, a world barrier and the Anima Mundi. Solid memories are more complete and can be used to repair the damage more efficiently, or broken down to have their energy extracted.

 

Likewise, the barrier that Guthix built was intended to keep the gods out. There's no reason that this shield should hurt the mortal races that Guthix brought to Gielinor, regardless of whether they've been especially blessed or not.

 

It is for this reason that I think, thematically I think TWW should be required to train this skill just so the player can understand just what exactly are they doing. It's not like the quest is hard or have terrible rewards either...

[Kimberly]

It is for this reason that I think, thematically I think TWW should be required to train this skill just so the player can understand just what exactly are they doing. It's not like the quest is hard or have terrible rewards either...

 

Agreed.

 

I mean after all, who would have forseen that having such a crucial quest be set in the past regardless of where you are in the present and not required for any content heavily related to it as a problem?!

 

everyone

[Alg]

It is for this reason that I think, thematically I think TWW should be required to train this skill just so the player can understand just what exactly are they doing. It's not like the quest is hard or have terrible rewards either...

They'd have to completely overhaul Divination's rewards though. Spawning a private copper rock shouldn't require 140 combat.

[PolarBearBlue]

It is for this reason that I think, thematically I think TWW should be required to train this skill just so the player can understand just what exactly are they doing. It's not like the quest is hard or have terrible rewards either...

They'd have to completely overhaul Divination's rewards though. Spawning a private copper rock shouldn't require 140 combat.

 

Not really. What they should have done, or can do, is scale combat like they did for BOL or Death of Chivalry and require it in the same way Wolf Whistle is required for summoning. We've discussed, as it stands now Divination has limited reward so for a lower level it's much better tojust go find a copper rock than spawn one. But 140 combat is a bit tough for a skill. So instead scale the combat inside the quest and require the quest for the skill so players can understand why we are flushing crud down a toilet...

[Sy_Accursed]

Based on the crews desire to gather data on the normal vs enriched memory ratios I threw together a google form for data gathering if anyone cares to help fill it out: (I was bored)

 

https://docs.google.com/forms/d/1fTaNGW4bHf6zeGUAxKsidf0nF7vVpICj7ku-bf0evig/viewform

 

Resulting ratio outputs shown here:

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AiiWNnszLqVydHZaSjlKa3loYk5uY1hvemtrU1JOT0E

[Quyneax]

The memories fit in thematically with Divination as they are fragments of the very damaged Anima Mundi, and by returning them you help to repair the damage to Gielinor. What you're harvesting from the wisps are the remnants of the energy of a dead god, a world barrier and the Anima Mundi. Solid memories are more complete and can be used to repair the damage more efficiently, or broken down to have their energy extracted.

 

Likewise, the barrier that Guthix built was intended to keep the gods out. There's no reason that this shield should hurt the mortal races that Guthix brought to Gielinor, regardless of whether they've been especially blessed or not.

A broken shield can have sharp edges. The shield isn't what Guthix designed anymore, and the rerouted flows of energy can certainly damage mortals (compare: hydraulic system with the hoses cut). There is no lore-based reason you could not design the skill to include taking damage, in fact, it makes sense that the broken shield is a danger, after all, we are disarming and recycling it, and that is a whole skill in itself, so it's not exactly easy.

 

Memories do make thematic sense, but since their only use is being deposited at the pits, you might as well remove them. The Anima Mundi is all around us, so if we are returning memories to it, there is no need to do so in a specific place if you wish to design the skill that way - you can make a Divination setting comparable to the xp button for combat, or add special energy-rich or energy-draining nodes - both more interesting than this boring depositing thing, which just feels like an unnecessary step in the whole process. By contrast, the things you drop in other skills are useful in themselves, and there is a point where they become worth banking - dropping them is a matter of bank time versus item value, which arises naturally from the skill, the economy and the player's preferred moneymaker. In other words, it's a choice. Divination absolutely, 100% forces you to dump memories every single time.

 

As an aside, "repairing the damage" does suggest that there will be a point when Divination becomes unneeded in the world, until the next God Wars start again. Are we going to purposefully keep breaking up parts of the Anima Mundi so we can keep training Divination?

[Kimberly]

As an aside, "repairing the damage" does suggest that there will be a point when Divination becomes unneeded in the world, until the next God Wars start again. Are we going to purposefully keep breaking up parts of the Anima Mundi so we can keep training Divination?

 

The companion skill will likely ensure that there's always a steady amount of damaged lifeforce present that Divination needs to keep in check.

 

 

[Aiel]

http://services.rune...user=Mod Trance

:wall: god forbid there's something to this skill besides standing and then moving two squares and then standing some more...

[Yoko Kurama]

I think most of the complaints would subside if they just increased the XP rate. It's too laborious at the moment, it's like working in some factory.

 

--

 

As for the discussion on the lore, I am happy with how it is. I don't think there needs to be any special reason as to why we can just go and harvest the energy.