Junk Trading: Acceptable, Practical Practice?

[Master_Smither]

I don't mind it since mainly merchants only use it and it only goes to someone else who can use the junk in his trade so it's no lose to him imo. I havn't done it yet but I'm still 4 summon. :)

[Triquos]

The way I see it is, since Jagex basically controls most of the market now, players have had to resort to junk trading to get the price that it SHOULD have been (because of the 5% higher/lower restrictions)

 

 

 

A shame that I can't get full 3a melee now because of it though :cry: I want the set by the time I get 99 slayer - which is really soon - so there goes that plan :lol:

 

 

 

Good Lord, son. Jagex does not control the prices, PLAYERS DO. The reason price floors don't disappear is because Jagex set parameters for player transactions to change the pricing.

 

 

 

I guess I didn't make my message clear :-k Yes players control the PRICES, BUT not the market *in general* - it's not like we have FULL control.

 

 

 

I see players wanting to sell half wine for 10M, I'd love to buy them, but it ain't gonna happen because the price is stuck in the grand exchange. The only way to do that trade would be by me adding junk - and I don't exactly have that much expensive junk.

 

 

 

Not only that, but we don't exactly get to buy the amount of things we want either. Take for example, runes. We can only buy what.. 25K MAX per 4 hours or something rediculous.

 

 

 

So yes Jagex DO control most of the market with the 5% restriction and limited buying/selling and if that ain't controlling a market to some extent, I don't know what is. Either way, it is more controlled today than when we could sell anything for any price last year - THAT'S FOR SURE!

[acenator]

you're not selling it for a ridiculous high, unfair price you're selling it for the true price. it's just a way of getting around jagex's incompetence :|

 

 

 

No the true price is the GE price.

 

 

 

Like it or not what Jagex say an item is worth, is what it is worth. Adding "junk" to it isn't selling it for more, it's adding to it's value.

 

 

 

Also if people do junk trade then the GE will never have the "correct" price in it as most junk trades consist of med price.

 

Do you not forget that Jagex said that we, the players, would have control of prices after the ge? If they had stuck with this and not put in price floors and ceilings and made the ge actually work (as in looking at both uncompleted and completed trades rather than just completed trades), there never would have been junk items or the need for them in the first place.

 

 

 

The "true" price, in any economy, is determined by supply and demand and reflects the value an item holds for everyone in that economy. If you want to believe in all of the prices of the ge, go right ahead, but don't tell others that they need to lose a bunch of money to fix prices that aren't anywhere near their true value when it's not their fault that Jagex failed to implement a system that works properly.

[ice age mage]

Soo..What is junk trading #-o

[Triquos]

Soo..What is junk trading #-o

 

 

 

Basically buying something and turning it into another item worth A LOT more than the first, thus creating junk.

 

 

 

For example, shells and snelms.

 

 

 

Previously some shells were about 1K each, now the crafted version of that shell is a snelm, and usually no one ever bought them. They were worth around 2K each, so by crafting the shell into a snelm it would create 1K worth of junk. Now because you don't fail crafting them much with a decent crafting level, people were creating 100K+ worth of junk easily.

 

 

 

Obviously people caught onto it and the snelms dropped rapidly because people were trying to sell them ASAP, now that shell>snelm junk thing doesn't work and people move onto a different item.

 

 

 

Kindo like playing hot potato :lol:

[Makoto_the_Phoenix]

Forgive me if this logic may sound flawed, but here's the reason that I don't believe in/condone "junk trading".

 

 

 

1) Players believe that the GE is too strict/tyrannical

 

2) Players come into possession of a high value, low demand item (e.g. rare, 3rd age)

 

3) Players want to sell item in GE, no buyers, complain that GE is too strict/tyrannical

 

4) Players "junk trade" to another person for significantly less (in GP) than its worth

 

5) Price is never updated in GE to reflect the new possible trade

 

6) Players continue to believe that the GE is too strict/tyrannical

 

 

 

(Continue 2-6 until you get bored)

 

 

 

People don't think that the GE works, so they avoid using it. Little do they realize that by them not using it, they're really breaking the "broken" system even more. This is known as an infinite loop, and it seems like the only way to break it is to get the players' confidence in the GE.

 

[While I'm very confident in the GE myself, I don't see many other players willing to believe that it works...]

[acenator]

Forgive me if this logic may sound flawed, but here's the reason that I don't believe in/condone "junk trading".

 

 

 

1) Players believe that the GE is too strict/tyrannical

 

2) Players come into possession of a high value, low demand item (e.g. rare, 3rd age)

 

3) Players want to sell item in GE, no buyers, complain that GE is too strict/tyrannical

 

4) Players "junk trade" to another person for significantly less (in GP) than its worth

 

5) Price is never updated in GE to reflect the new possible trade

 

6) Players continue to believe that the GE is too strict/tyrannical

 

 

 

(Continue 2-6 until you get bored)

 

 

 

People don't think that the GE works, so they avoid using it. Little do they realize that by them not using it, they're really breaking the "broken" system even more. This is known as an infinite loop, and it seems like the only way to break it is to get the players' confidence in the GE.

 

[While I'm very confident in the GE myself, I don't see many other players willing to believe that it works...]

 

It's not that people don't think it works (it actually works great for most items an average 'scaper would use), it's that more expensive items, due to the relatively small number being traded, don't have their prices updated as much as they should to reflect supply and demand and this, in turn, forces people to resort to junk trading to get the price that does reflect supply and demand.

 

 

 

As for it "breaking" the system more, I'd like to see you use up millions (more likely billions) of coins to correct the prices of all the items currently being traded with junk. Because, unless Jagex steps up and actually fixes these prices and the GE, that, along with just waiting for the true price to match up with the GE's again, is the only way to get prices back to where the ge is a viable option for those selling/buying these sorts of items.

 

 

 

Again, if the GE did its job like it should and kept up with supply and demand and didn't have all these price floors and ceilings, junk would neither exist nor have a reason to exist.

[green9090]

This is known as an infinite loop, and it seems like the only way to break it is to get the players' confidence in the GE.

 

There are two things that could change this loop. One is a change in player behavior, with people spontaneously deciding to all throw money into a black hole at once. The other, far more reasonable option is Jagex fixing their broken system. If the prices were right, players wouldn't think (read: know) that the GE is flawed.

 

 

 

But God forbid the company we're all paying would solve their own problem. No, so many people seem to think that the customers are supposed to interrupt their playing to solve it. Let me know how that works out for you when/if you actually get enough money to be affected by third age and rare item prices.

[Michael]

Junk fails, I buy a Zammy spear 2m inc junk, the junk alchs for 970k. I get a cheap Zammy spear.

[wakka102]

I bought a black mask using junk trades, I would never sell an item through it because i agree, its just selling other items. I sold all the willow bows at a store for about 50k back so I got alot of what I spent back lol.

[Makoto_the_Phoenix]

This is known as an infinite loop, and it seems like the only way to break it is to get the players' confidence in the GE.

 

There are two things that could change this loop. One is a change in player behavior, with people spontaneously deciding to all throw money into a black hole at once. The other, far more reasonable option is Jagex fixing their broken system. If the prices were right, players wouldn't think (read: know) that the GE is flawed.

 

 

 

But God forbid the company we're all paying would solve their own problem. No, so many people seem to think that the customers are supposed to interrupt their playing to solve it. Let me know how that works out for you when/if you actually get enough money to be affected by third age and rare item prices.

 

 

 

Thanks for proving my point. The reason that the GE is "broken" is not only due to a lack of trust between players and Jagex, but a misconception of just how popular the item they're trying to sell really is.

 

 

 

Before a price can become "right", players must use the GE to trade various goods. Then, and only then will it auto-correct, based on supply/demand for that particular item. Players that come along, saying that the GE has too many faults for it to be used [for high end, low demand items] aren't helping the situation -- they're making it ten times worse by ignoring the GE altogether. It only makes sense that if it's not being used, the "real" value of items isn't going to be reflected in it.

 

 

 

As far as the demand goes, let's think outside of the box for a second -- how many people want to buy a partyhat or 3rd Age as opposed to coal, yews, or monkfish? Don't ignore that part of the equation when it comes to the GE, okay?

 

 

 

By the by, you don't have to interrupt your playing to solve it. You can just continue along the path of junk trading, not like anyone will stop you. I'm just letting you know that it's not helping your alleged situation.

[acenator]

Thanks for proving my point. The reason that the GE is "broken" is not only due to a lack of trust between players and Jagex, but a misconception of just how popular the item they're trying to sell really is.

 

 

 

Before a price can become "right", players must use the GE to trade various goods. Then, and only then will it auto-correct, based on supply/demand for that particular item. Players that come along, saying that the GE has too many faults for it to be used [for high end, low demand items] aren't helping the situation -- they're making it ten times worse by ignoring the GE altogether. It only makes sense that if it's not being used, the "real" value of items isn't going to be reflected in it.

 

 

 

As far as the demand goes, let's think outside of the box for a second -- how many people want to buy a partyhat or 3rd Age as opposed to coal, yews, or monkfish? Don't ignore that part of the equation when it comes to the GE, okay?

 

 

 

By the by, you don't have to interrupt your playing to solve it. You can just continue along the path of junk trading, not like anyone will stop you. I'm just letting you know that it's not helping your alleged situation.

 

How is he proving your point? He even thwarted the arguement that you seem to think beats his. If the GE were able to keep up with the "True" values of these high end, low demand items, then people would gladly use it, but, as it stands right now, the only way for sellers/buyers to reflect supply and demand is through junk trades and, as I've stated before, the only ways to fix this are to wait for the true price to somehow match that of the GE (which can take months depending on how far off the prices are), have a bunch of people practically give away their money to lucky people on the other end of the GE, or Jagex could step up and fix the prices and the GE so that it becomes a viable option.

 

 

 

In essence, unless you want to get a bunch of uber-rich people together and throw away a bunch of money to correct the prices (and probably watch them end up getting stuck again, anyways), all we can do is keep pointing out the faults of the GE and hope Jagex somehow gets around to fixing them.

 

 

 

As for demand, there is plenty of it. If there wasn't any demand, then how are people selling these items for so much? This just shows that the prices of the items being traded with junk accurately reflect supply and demand and that the GE's prices do not.

[green9090]

Contrary to popular belief, the GE COULD work without completed trades. Let's take the case of, say, blue partyhats. The GE thinks they're worth more than they actually are. Thus, players who want to sell one are glad to put in offers to sell their hats at the low price, and I promise that if you put in an offer right now, you would receive a blue partyhat instantly.

 

 

 

So, the GE knows that there are tons of people who WANT to sell blue partyhats for less than they are allowed. At the end of each day, when prices are decided, it knows that there are a few hundred unfulfilled offers at minimum, and currently is programmed to then keep the price level. What if, if there are outstanding offers to sell an item at the low price at the end of the day, the price were to automatically lower a full 5%? Well hey, that would solve the problem, wouldn't it?

 

 

 

For some reason, Jagex refuses to do this, but it's not as if the problem CAN'T be solved. They are just legitimately being stupid, so please stop spewing crap about how "if you don't use it Jagex can't do anything about it." Jagex knows exactly how to make it work.

[Great_one]

i openly support junk traders. they buy/sell there items for the "real" price. like you noticed with black masks recently. if we had it our way the price would have been 900k w/o junk, but as the ge only rises 5% max a day that was imoposable for it to raise over 80% in one day. it is Jagex's (and rwt's) fault that we have to use junk. im my opinion junk traders are just trading bythe way trading is supposed to be. a player on player interaction. junk traders are liberators!

 

 

 

ps. dont mind that i 2 days i made 1.5m off of black masks =P~

[BBC3]

Forgive me if this logic may sound flawed, but here's the reason that I don't believe in/condone "junk trading".

 

 

 

1) Players believe that the GE is too strict/tyrannical

 

2) Players come into possession of a high value, low demand item (e.g. rare, 3rd age)

 

3) Players want to sell item in GE, no buyers, complain that GE is too strict/tyrannical

 

4) Players "junk trade" to another person for significantly less (in GP) than its worth

 

5) Price is never updated in GE to reflect the new possible trade

 

6) Players continue to believe that the GE is too strict/tyrannical

 

 

 

(Continue 2-6 until you get bored)

 

 

 

People don't think that the GE works, so they avoid using it. Little do they realize that by them not using it, they're really breaking the "broken" system even more. This is known as an infinite loop, and it seems like the only way to break it is to get the players' confidence in the GE.

 

[While I'm very confident in the GE myself, I don't see many other players willing to believe that it works...]

 

 

 

this would make sense if it was ontopic, if an item is 250k on the ge and the item is worth 15mil, no one is going to use the ge to sell it

[MicroLegionnaire]

Junk trading is basically a means of taking advantage of a flawed system, a loophole in the rules, the same way pures take (or took) advantage of a flawed combat level system. So I'd say junk trading is as ethical as using pures.

 

 

 

I personally think its a waste of time though. I heard most junk items take forever to gather, and you were better off making the money.

[xpx]

Quite funny reading posts by people with no understanding of junk trades post ridiculously stupid comments about junkers abusing and scamming everyone.

 

 

 

GE is a program. A program can't be used to determine the price of items, that's for people to do. But as jagex stupidly believes, it can. The concept calls for phantom prices, which means the unfortunate owners of those rare items are getting ripped off. People who offer junk with those items are therefore not scammers nor abusers, they are the ones getting scammed and abused by jagex by not being able to sell items for their market value.

 

 

 

Also don't come here saying you don't want the junk your getting, you can always trade trough bh as well, but that would be stupid, wouldn't it, because junk has a value too.

[Makoto_the_Phoenix]

How is he proving your point? He even thwarted the arguement that you seem to think beats his. If the GE were able to keep up with the "True" values of these high end, low demand items, then people would gladly use it, but, as it stands right now, the only way for sellers/buyers to reflect supply and demand is through junk trades and, as I've stated before, the only ways to fix this are to wait for the true price to somehow match that of the GE (which can take months depending on how far off the prices are), have a bunch of people practically give away their money to lucky people on the other end of the GE, or Jagex could step up and fix the prices and the GE so that it becomes a viable option.

 

 

 

In essence, unless you want to get a bunch of uber-rich people together and throw away a bunch of money to correct the prices (and probably watch them end up getting stuck again, anyways), all we can do is keep pointing out the faults of the GE and hope Jagex somehow gets around to fixing them.

 

 

 

As for demand, there is plenty of it. If there wasn't any demand, then how are people selling these items for so much? This just shows that the prices of the items being traded with junk accurately reflect supply and demand and that the GE's prices do not.

 

 

 

Apparently, you didn't get my point. So, let me restate it for you.

 

 

 

The GE will not work with high value, low demand items because they are almost never sold or bought, and a player with a high value, low demand item will not use the GE because they feel it is broken.

 

 

 

The cycle continues on and on, and in reality Jagex is doing what they can to fix it. It's just a matter of willingness to use the GE to buy/sell those high value, low demand items, and that's something that only the player can "fix". All you have to do is be willing to use the GE for these types of changes.

 

 

 

One more thing -- I don't see thousands of players lining up to buy partyhats. Do you? Because if you do, I'd like to know where to find them. Just to see it for myself.

 

 

 

So, the GE knows that there are tons of people who WANT to sell blue partyhats for less than they are allowed. At the end of each day, when prices are decided, it knows that there are a few hundred unfulfilled offers at minimum, and currently is programmed to then keep the price level. What if, if there are outstanding offers to sell an item at the low price at the end of the day, the price were to automatically lower a full 5%? Well hey, that would solve the problem, wouldn't it?

 

 

 

For some reason, Jagex refuses to do this, but it's not as if the problem CAN'T be solved. They are just legitimately being stupid, so please stop spewing crap about how "if you don't use it Jagex can't do anything about it." Jagex knows exactly how to make it work.

 

 

 

First of all, I don't see how the GE knows there are still "unresolved" trades out there. From what I can tell from the specs, the GE only pays attention to the result of the actual trades that took place. Here it is, if you didn't catch it:

 

 

 

The market price is affected by any trade that occurs in the Exchange. If an item frequently sells for more than the market price then it will rise in value, but if it consistently sells for less than the market price then it will go down.

 

 

 

...Ergo, if it hasn't been traded from one player to another, it doesn't care.

 

 

 

Now, if it were to automatically lower 5% after a set period of time, that would be rather nice. However, I believe that I've noticed such a trend already occurring... Take a look at the 30-day history of Partyhats, and you'll a 5%-like dent in their price, every 15-25 days.

 

 

 

Lastly, it's not that Jagex is refusing to do anything about this. It's the players that are stuck on stubborn about the issue. At its core, the GE is nothing more than a tool. This tool's *only* purpose is to take the average of *completed* trades, and set the new prices of the market. If it's not used, there's no way it's going to reflect accurate data. That's all there is. No one, not even Jagex could take the stubbornness out of people when it comes to this.

 

 

 

My guess is that people will won't be fully satisfied with whatever resolution Jagex comes up with when it comes to high value, low demand items. Sure hope something can get figured out...debates like this sure do get tiresome.

 

 

 

this would make sense if it was ontopic, if an item is 250k on the ge and the item is worth 15mil, no one is going to use the ge to sell it

 

 

 

1) No item on the GE exists like that.

 

2) Where are you getting the 15M from, if an item happened to exist like that?

[green9090]

 

First of all, I don't see how the GE knows there are still "unresolved" trades out there. From what I can tell from the specs, the GE only pays attention to the result of the actual trades that took place.

 

 

 

Right, that's how Jagex programmed it. That's what's wrong. I'm saying they need to CHANGE the programming to be non-stupid. Then the GE will work. Isn't that the whole point of suggesting improvements? Changing the way things work to make them better?

[wolfmon56]

Junk is a new currency.

 

 

 

Example:

 

3rd age mage hat = 8-10mil on ge

 

3rd age mage hat on street: 70mil

 

 

 

That's 60mil in junk items, so junk is it's own currency and is widely used.

[Adam007]

Makoto, you can't blame problems with the GE on players. It's jagex's responsibility for it to work. They shouldn't have to rely on players. If there's one bad egg in the community, it ruins the whole system basically. Junking is so widespread that it's up to jagex to fix. Not the players.

 

 

 

Junk trading isn't wrong or unethical. It's just an example of game theory where one person uses junk trading, so everyone has to. Because of that, it's up to jagex to step in and fix it. Until then, people won't be able to pay the real value of an item in cash, where supply meets demand. Instead we have an extremely messed up system that desperately needs fixing.

[acenator]

Apparently, you didn't get my point. So, let me restate it for you.

 

 

 

The GE will not work with high value, low demand items because they are almost never sold or bought, and a player with a high value, low demand item will not use the GE because they feel it is broken.

 

 

 

The cycle continues on and on, and in reality Jagex is doing what they can to fix it. It's just a matter of willingness to use the GE to buy/sell those high value, low demand items, and that's something that only the player can "fix". All you have to do is be willing to use the GE for these types of changes.

 

 

 

One more thing -- I don't see thousands of players lining up to buy partyhats. Do you? Because if you do, I'd like to know where to find them. Just to see it for myself.

 

First off, you just pointed out another problem with the GE that needs to be fixed by Jagex by saying that "the GE will not work with high value, low demand items because they are almost never sold or bought." Secondly, I've already stated that, if the GE's price reflected the true price determined by supply and demand, people would use it instead of person-to-person trades due to how convenient it is and that continuing to use the GE while the GE's price differs from the true price would be a waste of money.

 

 

 

And on the issue of the demand for these sorts of items, there obviously has to be some at the price that junk traders are trading at because, if there wasn't, they wouldn't be trading at those prices. Also, were Jagex to lower the prices of every overpriced item to where they should be, the demand would greatly increase as more people, who would be willing to buy them at the current junk trade price, but don't have the junk, would enter the market and help keep the price at equilibrium even more.

 

 

 

 

 

So, the GE knows that there are tons of people who WANT to sell blue partyhats for less than they are allowed. At the end of each day, when prices are decided, it knows that there are a few hundred unfulfilled offers at minimum, and currently is programmed to then keep the price level. What if, if there are outstanding offers to sell an item at the low price at the end of the day, the price were to automatically lower a full 5%? Well hey, that would solve the problem, wouldn't it?

 

 

 

For some reason, Jagex refuses to do this, but it's not as if the problem CAN'T be solved. They are just legitimately being stupid, so please stop spewing crap about how "if you don't use it Jagex can't do anything about it." Jagex knows exactly how to make it work.

 

 

 

First of all, I don't see how the GE knows there are still "unresolved" trades out there. From what I can tell from the specs, the GE only pays attention to the result of the actual trades that took place. Here it is, if you didn't catch it:

 

 

 

The market price is affected by any trade that occurs in the Exchange. If an item frequently sells for more than the market price then it will rise in value, but if it consistently sells for less than the market price then it will go down.

 

 

 

...Ergo, if it hasn't been traded from one player to another, it doesn't care.

 

 

 

Now, if it were to automatically lower 5% after a set period of time, that would be rather nice. However, I believe that I've noticed such a trend already occurring... Take a look at the 30-day history of Partyhats, and you'll a 5%-like dent in their price, every 15-25 days.

 

It is understood that the GE currently only determines prices from completed trades. That's why the suggestion to have it also look at uncompleted trades has come up as a way to make prices change daily instead of maybe once or twice a month and help to make junk trading a waste of time and energy due to the viability of the GE.

 

 

 

 

 

Lastly, it's not that Jagex is refusing to do anything about this. It's the players that are stuck on stubborn about the issue. At its core, the GE is nothing more than a tool. This tool's *only* purpose is to take the average of *completed* trades, and set the new prices of the market. If it's not used, there's no way it's going to reflect accurate data. That's all there is. No one, not even Jagex could take the stubbornness out of people when it comes to this.

 

 

 

My guess is that people will won't be fully satisfied with whatever resolution Jagex comes up with when it comes to high value, low demand items. Sure hope something can get figured out...debates like this sure do get tiresome.

 

Correct, the GE is a tool. However, it is a flawed tool that only Jagex can fix. If Jagex were to fix it so that it could keep up with the economy, then people would use it. It's not that people are stubborn, it's that they don't want to lose a bunch of hard-earned money trying to keep this "tool" updated.

 

 

 

this would make sense if it was ontopic, if an item is 250k on the ge and the item is worth 15mil, no one is going to use the ge to sell it

 

 

 

1) No item on the GE exists like that.

 

2) Where are you getting the 15M from, if an item happened to exist like that?

 

It doesn't matter that an item like that doesn't exist, the principle remains the same. Nobody's going to willingly sell something on the GE when they know that there are people out there willing to pay much more for it than the GE will let them because it's a waste of potential money. And this works the other way around too. If somebody wants to buy something, but they know the price on the GE is much higher than the street price, then they're going to buy it for the street price and save the extra money for something else.

 

 

 

There will, of course, be a few exceptions to these rules, but those are miniscule and the only affect they have is that one price change every 15-25 days that could be easily turned into a price change once or twice a day (not sure how often they'd pdate prices if they used both completed and uncompleted trades).

[xpx]

this would make sense if it was ontopic, if an item is 250k on the ge and the item is worth 15mil, no one is going to use the ge to sell it

 

 

 

1) No item on the GE exists like that.

 

2) Where are you getting the 15M from, if an item happened to exist like that?

 

Cat mask is 400k on the GE, sold for more than 30m on the market.

[imaerehw14]

If you have the items in your bank already, and they are impossible to sell because of some abnormal training method (lets say 400k body runes or something that would take weeks to sell. or hey, maybe those 10M needles that some of you thought was a good idea to buy just because when the update came out with infinity of each item in general/NPC stores) then it would be worth it in my opinion. However, I dont see the point in training, summoning for example, and making scrolls instead of reusing the shards from the pouches because you want junk items. The money will still go back into the skill, but more than likely you wont get as much money from the junk trade than you would from the actual trade from the ogre.

 

 

 

at any rate, if you screwed up a few months ago or your used an abnormal training method with a weird product, junk trading MIGHT be worth it. But to go out of your way to collect the items of worth, you arent getting any benefit. you wasted your time to buy the item over price, therefore you still bought the item for equal value. But i guess the topic needs to go towards the value of your time. In my case, I would rather just not junk trade if the item isnt buyable because my time on this game is valuable. I dont play much, so to get items to junk trade would be a waste.

[cat666]

Jagex will stop junk trading you can bet your life on it.

 

 

 

I can't see them stopping trading as this would impact the game far too much but I can see them reducing the flexibility of it. I mean it's easy to restrict one type of item per trade. That would force sellers to sell an item on its own and therefore get rid of junk trading. The only downside is people wouldn't be able to trade lots of items for 1 item but they already have the ability to make sets from armour, whose to say they won't utilize this even more? People could always sell the items for cash then pay via cash for a more expensive item.

 

 

 

Bottom line is though these items are just pixels in a game. All of which are owned by Jagex and if they say something is worth 30mil then it's worth 30mil. If it was real life you could do a dodgy deal with a man in a pub, but it isn't real life and there is no way to change the prices other than use the GE. As long as people are junk trading then the GE won't change.