Today...

[RpgGamer]

NOXX:

Punches scumbag. Gets new phone and free hotel service.

 

Hell yeah.

[Tim]

Newcastle as in Australia or Newcastle upon Tyne?

AU obviously :P

[Randox]

Divergent is definitely the strongest of the three on that series. You might argue that the characters are at there strongest in Allegiant, but I still feel like Divergent was a stronger, more intriguing story.

Having finished the series, Divergent is the one I would read again, I'm not sure about the others. The second book is a bridge, and it's really well done, but the betrayal/lack of trust is a story arc that I don't like, and that I can really only enjoy the first time through. The third book is a fantastic story, but there is a problem. I really only read two genres, fantasy and science fiction. Fantasy is my 'native' genre, the one where I feel the most comfortable with, but I get more out of the science fiction thought experiment, and I read dystopian stories like Divergent or The Hunger Games as science fiction. The problem is that dystopias are ultimately something else, which means that I am often not happy when I get to the end. I think the only time I have ever gotten to the end of a dystopian series and been happy with it was The Hidden Children. It's also quite possible that I don't actually remember the ending of that series, because it seems unlikely those books would have culminated in a place I like. The first book sets a pretty different tone about that. Also, I think Among the Betrayed was my favorite in that series. That was a good story.

 

Today I remembered that City of Bones is a movie they made and released. There is definitely something off about the movie, like something was cut right before the finale started. I've read the first three books, and it's not exactly a simple story, and from what I remember a fair amount was cut out. A lot of it I am fine with because when push comes to shove, there aren't many movies I honestly wish were five hours long. What that movie seems to lack in particular is some of the explanation for why things are happening, almost like someone telling you a story without context. You can follow along, and even enjoy it, but your never quite sure just what is going on. But I did enjoy the movie, as I often do, so I hope that they get on with making the next one, and that it does well enough to get a third and so on (soon to be six books, not sure if there are plans for more).

[Ginger_Warrior]

 

Newcastle as in Australia or Newcastle upon Tyne?

AU obviously :P

 

Ahh. It's just you said London and I definitely wouldn't describe the latter is being like London! North England and South England are like two different countries. :)

 

Yesterday, our university volunteering society had its elections, and they voted me as unit manager, which essentially means I run the place and make sure we're doing a good job for the next 12 months. Sweet. My CV's swelling again. :)

 

I'm not sure whether to see the film Divergent or buy the book first. I know I'd enjoy the film more; the "INFP" stereotype is vastly overplayed and I much prefer reading non-fiction to navigating through a literary dream world. I definitely want to experience it, though.

[stevepole]

Over the entire course of your life $80k is just a fraction of what you could make. So if you really want to do it, don't just think about the money, think of what you're getting in return. 

[muggiwhplar]

I wouldn't recommend college to anyone unless it's mandatory for their career-- such as law, medicine, or engineering. In your case, it depends on how passionate you are about engineering.

 

If I were you, I'd skip college, go get a job in sales, get paid real money and gain actual work experience while everyone else is accumulating debt and memorizing textbook terms that nobody in the real world uses. Then when you've got money saved up, you could go back to engineering if you're still interested in it. But this way you wouldn't have the burden of debt to stress you out and take a toll on your happiness for the next 10+ years. Additionally, you'll have learned a critical life skill (sales) to carry you financially for the rest of your entire life regardless of how the economy/job market is doing and regardless of whether or not engineering turns out to be a good fit for you.

 

Last time I checked, engineering pays around $60k/yr straight out of college. If you have $60k in debt and you manage to save 10% of your income per year to repay your debt, it's going to take you at LEAST 10 years to pay it off. That's not worth it at all IMO >_>

[The_Gabe]

I wouldn't recommend college to anyone unless it's mandatory for their career-- such as law, medicine, or engineering. In your case, it depends on how passionate you are about engineering.

 

If I were you, I'd skip college, go get a job in sales, get paid real money and gain actual work experience while everyone else is accumulating debt and memorizing textbook terms that nobody in the real world uses. Then when you've got money saved up, you could go back to engineering if you're still interested in it. But this way you wouldn't have the burden of debt to stress you out and take a toll on your happiness for the next 10+ years. Additionally, you'll have learned a critical life skill (sales) to carry you financially for the rest of your entire life regardless of how the economy/job market is doing and regardless of whether or not engineering turns out to be a good fit for you.

 

Last time I checked, engineering pays around $60k/yr straight out of college. If you have $60k in debt and you manage to save 10% of your income per year to repay your debt, it's going to take you at LEAST 10 years to pay it off. That's not worth it at all IMO >_>

 

Sorry but on average, college graduates make a million dollar more than their counterparts. Also, there is a demand for educated and skilled labor, much more than unskilled. It would be a complete mistake not to go to college.

[RpgGamer]

Totally depends on your ability to get out of debt. Its a lot of confidence on your job, but staying in one place for 4 years is far more enjoyable than breaking it up 2 and 2 (though its just as valid to say the exact opposite). Personally im graduating debt free from a small(er) university after 4 years in may. I kind of resent not being an on campus student, but that's what my life dictated that I needed at the time. You going to such a high class place would mean a good shot at future jobs, so if its definitely something you want, do it!

[champion]

Are there any schools in your state that you could go to that would provide a somewhat similar level of education to Georgia Tech without the sticker shock, or is it too late? Tbh if you actually go through with engineering then you shouldn't have that hard of a time getting a job in general, so it shouldn't matter TOO much where you go if you just want a good, well-paying job. No reason to pay the out-of-state cost for that and go 100k in debt when you could have substantially less debt for a similar degree at a state school.

[muggiwhplar]

 

Sorry but on average, college graduates make a million dollar more than their counterparts. Also, there is a demand for educated and skilled labor, much more than unskilled. It would be a complete mistake not to go to college.

 

http://www.wnd.com/2012/05/education-is-not-an-investment/

 

I think you're confusing correlation with causation here. Regardless, employers would rather have a person with 4 years of real work experience than someone with no experience and a college degree. Additionally, there is (and always will be) a higher demand for people who make companies money (salesmen/marketers) than people who cost companies money (engineers).

 

Ring reminded me of another point-- if you're up to your armpits in debt after you graduate, there's a good chance that you're going to be stuck living back at home with your parents for a while too after you graduate. Yikes!

[Tesset]

Bunch of idiots here who blindly accept the promises of the university system. How sad.

 

<-at a 4 year college for CompSci, has no job

[Tim]

To be honest, going to University in Australia as an Engineer, you might as well throw money at our PM and kiss his feet. A good 50% out of high school jump into Uni and go "I'll study engineering because it pays a shitton". Sure it pays well, but you and the other 1/5th of all Uni students are going for those jobs too. When I was leaving high school I tried to work in different avenues because I figured it'll be easier to get a job with multiple skills then 1 skill. 

 

What I didn't expect was the financial crisis kicking in the very time frame I finished school, which screwed me up quite a bit.

 

Anyway, my end point is it's who you know, not what you know these days. Otherwise all those idiots you see in jobs that shouldn't be in jobs, wouldn't be working.

[Ginger_Warrior]

The main flaw, at least in the UK, happens when students go to university expecting to study their "dream" course. Then they don't do any extra-curricular, voluntary or paid work during their studies, except for placements which the university hands to them as part of their course requirements. Then they graduate with an average grade (a 2:2 or 2:1), describe themselves as "overqualified" and insist that that customer service job at their local Starbucks, which would actually be a golden opportunity to develop basic work skills, is somehow beneath their new stature now that they can legally stick a few letters on the end of their name. Then they resort to applying for Masters or PhD studies, and the cycle repeats itself because ultimately they're only doing that to procrastinate entering the job market a year longer. Or they take a gap year, doing something which doesn't equip with work skills either.

 

Here is a fantastic article about it, from The Guardian, embarrassingly about a student from Sheffield which, I'm quite proud to say, is where I am currently studying.

 

By all means, do college/university/whatever-you-call-it. Some of the skills you learn at university are very useful, mainly the ability to think critically, assess "evidence" properly for bullshit, and present your ideas in a cohesive manner, be it orally or written down in essay. You'll use those skills everyday, not just at work, but in life too. I'm a great fan of having as many people as possible receiving a university education.

 

But for God's sakes, don't for one minute assume that a university education is an alternative to working basic jobs, gaining basic skills, and having to "put in the hard yards" to get to where you want to be.

[Ulysses]

Some things cannot be taught at uni; some people's abilities cannot be graded in the conventional sense. And excelling in high school does not necessarily mean you will excel at uni. University helps facilitate the change from adolescent to adulthood (intellectually in particular) - but it still requires input from people themselves.

 

I think it is essential for uni students to treat it like a job - this might require a change in attitude depending on how one got through high school, but is necessary to prepare for life. And university education is no longer the only pathway to later life. Given, entries are relaxed these days, and you are almost guaranteed opportunity for tertiary education should you choose to (in Australia at least), there isn't as much of a stature or prestige as it was for the previous generation (GenX and before). The thing is, you want to make the most out of university, and do things that others don't normally do, e.g. volunteering work as mentioned above, doing some part-time work (doesn't matter where - just let your future employed know you are employable...for the very least, and could get a reference at some point if required), or perhaps mentoring 1st years, supervising labs (where applicable) and etc. And ideally, you also want some sort of higher degree qualification e.g. MPhil/PhD, which imo should be the minimum for any job requiring professional knowledge, on top of whatever qualification exams/experience you have to have completed/acquired. 

 

You can always self learn things to do in your own time...like investing (in stocks - start small and build it up; from experience it's worthwhile to start early), or a new language (linguistic/programming whatever). All about time management.

[Duff]

About to graduate in May with a major in Physics and a minor in Computer Science...

 

Unfortunately, I have no desire to go to graduate school for physics, and research really isn't for me. I basically [bleep]ed myself over with my choice of major because I don't love physics at all. All my major does is tell people I work my ass off and that I'm ok at solving physics problems.

 

$23,000 worth of loans to pay off (I was lucky with scholarships and stuff). Still, that will be $237 a month for the next ten years (assuming I don't get lucky and manage a kick ass job that pays a shit ton of money).

 

Really have no idea what I'm going to do once I graduate.

 

Hmm... I seem to be pretty good at school. How about grad school for Computer Science? lol

[CBC]

So, I have the option of attending a top 5 engineering school (Georgia Tech) but doing so would probably mean taking on $80 to $120k of debt, possibly less with co-ops, RA, merit aid, etc. (the lowest I could end up with is probably $60k). I don't really know what other choices I have, I guess I could go to community college and then try to transfer next year, ideally for less money, but none of that is guaranteed and I could easily end up back in the same situation (or worse if I don't get in as a transfer student). I don't know, I guess I just value your opinions - what do you guys think I should do?

Attending a top 5 school gives you a much higher starting point and opens up more opportunities. If you are able to find coops during summers and have above average grades, you shouldn't have much difficulty in getting a decent job after graduation. Then $80k in debt is okay to take. I graduated from Engineering Science, UofT, one of top engineering programs in Canada. Very few of my classmates couldn't find a job within half year after graduation. 

 

Trade schools are pretty good too. Licensed contractors can be their own bosses and make very decent money everywhere.

 

Sales/marketing is not for everybody. At least not for me. I don't like dealing with customers in general.

[Blake]

As an engineer, you may 'only' make 60k/year to start, but there is a much higher range of salaries you can achieve, as opposed to 4 years of sales. With a 4 year engineering degree, you may be making 120k+ after 10 years of working. You're not going to get that high without a degree, even with your 4 years extra of sales work. You'll be able to pay off that 60k debt (which is a very high number, after scholarships/part time work/etc) a lot quicker.

 

Since we're talking about engineering, a person with a degree will always get the job over someone with 4 years of sales or whatever else experience. If you want a STEM job paying 60k+ a year, you're going to need a degree.

 

I'm not saying you should graduate with no work experience. Internships are pretty abundant for engineering, and are the perfect opportunity to get work experience during college, and offset a large portion of the cost. I'm in a very large university, in the college of engineering. 80% of the people I know get internships over the summer. If you can't/don't want to get an internship, there's other options like a research assistantship or lab worker.

 

Like others said, it's not going to be easy, and you'll have to work towards it like its a full time job. But, if you put in the effort, the degree is definitely worth it.

 

I'm only writing about Engineering here, I doubt it's the same for many other majors.

 

 

About alternatives to Georgia Tech - I'm at the University of Minnesota, which was #11 engineering in the US when I started, and i'm pretty sure it's in the top 20 almost every year. There's a 90% job placement rate for a bachelors of engineering, with an average of 63k/year salary starting. Tuition is a lot smaller than most big schools, especially for being high ranked. It's about 15k for books/tuition. After 5 years, I have about 4k of debt total, without any help from my parents. Definitely an option to look at.

[Hedgehog]

You really should only be attending those top-tier schools if you know you're going to be able to afford it. Maybe a few schools are worth going in debt for, like I would have been more than willing to throw myself deep into debt if I got accepted to Stanford, but Georgia Tech just isn't one of those schools.

 

Look for alternatives that you can afford. For example, on a list of the best engineering programs (which had GT at 6th), my school was ranked 42nd, but our engineering program still kicks ass and just about everyone in state can afford to go here. Basically, don't obsess over the big name. There are a lot of schools out there that will give you an amazing education at a quarter of a price. Remember, your future employers won't care about your alma mater more than how well you do in your interview.

[Giordano]

I'm entirely banking on my ability to get a teaching job at a California public school. Join the (mandatory) union and be protected from getting fired, receive great benefits and pension, and pretty much live the rest of my life laughing in my Union T-shirt.

[Tesset]

Well have you actually looked and made an open schedule or did you apply to two internships via email and never show your face and had a complete cluster[bleep] of a schedule?

I'm just saying I've had a job where I was programming while I was still in community college and was nowhere near qualified. Ofc I made sure that I made my schedule that semester office hours friendly and I actually visited the places I was applying to.

 

Not that I disagree with you, college won't get you shit. I believe its still worth going for a STEM degree though because it opens up opportunities such as government jobs, and jobs that want to paper regardless of experience. I can go on craigslist right now and see 50 adds that say 5 years work experience or bachelors degree and 1 year experience working this position.

If this is directed at me, then I know exactly why I don't have a job, and it is in no way the fault of other people. I was mostly just being a joking middle ground to this argument.

[muggiwhplar]

As an engineer, you may 'only' make 60k/year to start, but there is a much higher range of salaries you can achieve, as opposed to 4 years of sales. With a 4 year engineering degree, you may be making 120k+ after 10 years of working. You're not going to get that high without a degree, even with your 4 years extra of sales work. You'll be able to pay off that 60k debt (which is a very high number, after scholarships/part time work/etc) a lot quicker.

 

That's not true. Sales is by far the #1 highest-paying field there is, simply because there's no cap on your income and you're not salaried. I know guys my age who are earning six figures after only a year in sales. And I know people in their 30s who earn SEVEN figures (!!). With sales, you determine how much money you make and how much you work. As opposed to your boss determining all that for you.

 

Like I said, though-- he should figure out what his goals/priorities are. If he wants to be an engineer for the money, then sales would be a much smarter decision. If he wants to be an engineer because he enjoys the work, then I still think he should do sales for a few years and then switch to engineering once he's got his finances sorted out to avoid the stress of debt.

[Major Dash]

I think the one thing we can agree on here is that a batchellors degree in psychology or political science is a good way to throw away 30k and still end up in a sales job

 

 

I have so many friends with polysci degrees that are working almost minimum wage jobs. I don't even see the point of a polisci degree unless you plan on going to law school or something of the sort.

[champion]

I think the one thing we can agree on here is that a batchellors degree in psychology or political science is a good way to throw away 30k and still end up in a sales job

I think one other thing we can all agree on is that you shouldn't be so quick to dismiss the educational choices of others when you spell "bachelor's" as "batchellors." 

[Major Dash]

Dang dude, calling someone out for misspelling a word that they probably rarely type out.... Heck, it could have even been just holding the L button too long or their phone touch screen registering one too many times..... 

[Hedgehog]

You can get a decent job with psychology.

 

I have a friend who's an anthropology major though. She has no idea what she's going to do when she graduates.