Advisor Ghrim and Flatpacks- BAILOUT FOR PPL WITH FLATPACKS

[bedman]

Though i do have 99 construction, i did not bother with either of these diaries and abusing this bug- anybody still playing a victim should already understand that it was simply too good to be true and that jagex has fixed bugs on the run for many occasions(latest tormanted demon safespot nerf). Overall, by acting this way the market just got more junk for easier trading(like granite) and that's all- doubt anyone made much more than 100m from it, but i do know of one person who lost that much.

 

 

 

On the more alarming side, jagex created a similar moneymaking method requiring expensive high level skills and money to hoard limited amount of money a day, and i doubt that would be nerfed.

 

 

 

Care to expand on that one?

[Kimberly]

It should have been announced and we should have been given a time frame to which we could sell our current flat packs.

 

 

 

Meh.

 

 

 

If they gave an hour, people would have [bleep]ed for a day. If they gave a day, people would want two. If they gave two, people would want a week. Do you see the trend here?

 

 

 

This was the ONLY thing they could do, logically, after releasing that update.

 

 

 

That is not to say that this whole travesty should have ever happened. I don't even have 99 Construction and I feel that Jagex stepped over the line to call those who used it BUG ABUSERS. That is an insult to every legitimate player out there.

 

 

 

This should have NEVER happened. But given the fact that we don't live in a fantasy world, this is only thing that COULD HAVE happened.

[Madmanpur3]

At first, I thought that it was a huge error on Jagex's part to "nerf" this, but let's consider this: Was Construction ever destined to make money?

 

While I'd like to agree with you on this point of view, I simply can't due to JaGex's inconsistency when it comes to what qualifies as content that needs to be removed/adjusted and then proceed to claim it was a bug.

 

 

 

Was Prayer ever destined to be trained without ever once using it? The same can be said for Summoning and Magic. Was fletching destined to be a skill trained for the sole purpose of getting a skill cape? No, it was destined to be a skill where players could make supplies to support the ranged skill.

 

 

 

My point is, if we look at how things were destined to be in the game, then I'd say half the game needs to be redone.

 

 

 

That is not to say that this whole travesty should have ever happened. I don't even have 99 Construction and I feel that Jagex stepped over the line to call those who used it BUG ABUSERS. That is an insult to every legitimate player out there.

 

But you see, in JaGex's eyes those people ARE bug abusers because they've already essentially said that anything they do not like and doesn't fall under another rule, is a bug. That's their definition - it may seem stupid (it is), but that's the one they use.

[Soma2035]

It should have been announced and we should have been given a time frame to which we could sell our current flat packs.

 

 

 

Meh.

 

 

 

If they gave an hour, people would have [bleep] for a day. If they gave a day, people would want two. If they gave two, people would want a week. Do you see the trend here?

 

 

 

This was the ONLY thing they could do, logically, after releasing that update.

 

 

 

That is not to say that this whole travesty should have ever happened. I don't even have 99 Construction and I feel that Jagex stepped over the line to call those who used it BUG ABUSERS. That is an insult to every legitimate player out there.

 

 

 

This should have NEVER happened. But given the fact that we don't live in a fantasy world, this is only thing that COULD HAVE happened.

 

 

 

I've read and re-read that post. My understanding is,

 

 

 

"We are treating this like a bug. If you used it, don't worry, we are not banning anyone for it."

 

 

 

If you haven't understood yet, bug means whatever the hell they want it to. That was established when the SC easy points exploit existed. Jagex made it very clear that the bug abuse rule is a catch-all. If it's something they don't like, and it doesn't fall under any other rules, it's bug abuse. However, a thread on RSOF pleaded with Jagex to NOT ban people for "bug abuse" when the "bug" seems to fall into the gray zone.

 

 

 

From what I read, I don't think Jagex is trying to insult anyone. And if the corrected version of the thread still insults you, then you are insulted too easily.

[xpx]

Though i do have 99 construction, i did not bother with either of these diaries and abusing this bug- anybody still playing a victim should already understand that it was simply too good to be true and that jagex has fixed bugs on the run for many occasions(latest tormanted demon safespot nerf). Overall, by acting this way the market just got more junk for easier trading(like granite) and that's all- doubt anyone made much more than 100m from it, but i do know of one person who lost that much.

 

 

 

On the more alarming side, jagex created a similar moneymaking method requiring expensive high level skills and money to hoard limited amount of money a day, and i doubt that would be nerfed.

 

 

 

Care to expand on that one?

 

I'll expand as much as- you can not do it(as i mentioned high level skills being involved). Also it can be risky(lost like 5m at first).

[wakka102]

you have a biased opinion because it happened to you, if you were trying to take advantage of something that was so outragous like this with the thought that it wasnt bug abuse and you didnt have something like dragon claws as backup to sell the flatpacks incase they became junk then you seriously dont know what your doing on runescape and i suggest you dont blame rs for your own actions, if they gave a timelimit then there would be no flatpacks on the ge and people would be making them and it would be a hell of alot worse and then when they DID get nerfed there would be so much of them to use as junk, all to satisfy you selling your 41 racks.

 

 

 

I don't really care about the flatpacks, They will eventually sell and it will be done with. I agree it was my mistake. What I don't agree with is the way they nerfed this like they did. If they are going to nerf something, that was stated in the rewards, either:

 

 

 

A.) They need to announce it beforehand

 

 

 

B.) make the nerf not so heavy.

 

 

 

I've already explained route A. However if they take route B they need to give us a much higher precentage. I mean comon, 10%?? as someone else stated its probably better just alching them or selling the materials (if you bought magic stones) back to the store clerks. They should give something like 80% of the minimum ge price or even 100% of the minimum ge price. All of the ge prices for flatpacks are far under what the item is worth so you would still lose money but getter a better investment into using the flatpacks at miscellania. Obviously jagex see's that there is an excess of flatpacks in the game that are not selling and that is why they released this update. However now they they "supernerfed" it, nothing will change unless they make changes to the nerf.

 

 

 

legitamit? 600k a load is pretty fair i suppose, when only a few hundred people knew about it then revealed to everyone at the last second to get it removed, why didnt you post on the forum telling everyone about this so they could get an equal share, knowing that jagex WOULDNT remove it because that would be immoral, but you didnt because you knew it would be removed soon and you had to act quickly so you bought 41 of them, they got removed on you and now your acting the opposite to get people to feel sorry for you.

 

 

 

Actually, when I found this thread I came on the general forums to post about it. However this post was here. It wasn't until about a page and a half in (time wise) that it was nerfed and you can look back on early posts to see that. I bought the flatpacks because the method was there and I thought I could profit from it. I put my money into the GE and was very surprised that any of the cape racks sold to me at all. I assumed they would have all been bought up. You're trying to make me out to sound like a greedy bad guy. I've been a good member of the runescape community for years and would never bug abuse to gain an edge. I simply had a little more wit and a much larger bank then most people and used that to my advantage. Theirs nothing wrong with that, Merchants in runescape do that every day and have been since the game started and you here nobody complaining about them. If Jagex puts a feature in and it works exactly like it was programed, its not a bug, its a miscalculation on their end and needs Jagex owes it to their customers to soften the blow.

[saif]

More like slap in the face to those that took advantage of what was described as a reward. Essentially the level 3 boots are useless. But more importantly this is not a bug. It was programed that way and for all intents and purposes was in my opinion to be looked as a reward. It had no seemingly offense to the game and even if it is not consistant with other gameplay I fear they may have upset alot of higher level players.

 

 

 

Man it did not affect me in the least but I feel badly for those that were trying to take advantage of a reward...

 

 

 

 

 

And seriously what is the reward of the level 3 boots?

 

 

 

15k xp lamp :twss:

[aznmidget448]

Haahaa, nice nerf.

 

 

 

Well, the reward is still welcome by me (if I ever become a member...). It will be nice not having to waste so much money in order to get my construction up.

[Makoto_the_Phoenix]

At first, I thought that it was a huge error on Jagex's part to "nerf" this, but let's consider this: Was Construction ever destined to make money?

 

While I'd like to agree with you on this point of view, I simply can't due to JaGex's inconsistency when it comes to what qualifies as content that needs to be removed/adjusted and then proceed to claim it was a bug.

 

 

 

Was Prayer ever destined to be trained without ever once using it? The same can be said for Summoning and Magic. Was fletching destined to be a skill trained for the sole purpose of getting a skill cape? No, it was destined to be a skill where players could make supplies to support the ranged skill.

 

 

 

My point is, if we look at how things were destined to be in the game, then I'd say half the game needs to be redone.

 

 

 

That is not to say that this whole travesty should have ever happened. I don't even have 99 Construction and I feel that Jagex stepped over the line to call those who used it BUG ABUSERS. That is an insult to every legitimate player out there.

 

But you see, in JaGex's eyes those people ARE bug abusers because they've already essentially said that anything they do not like and doesn't fall under another rule, is a bug. That's their definition - it may seem stupid (it is), but that's the one they use.

 

 

 

 

 

To begin with, your parallels to those skills make no sense -

 

* Prayer was always destined to be trained with bones, and you never had to use prayers to get 99

 

* Summoning was always destined to be trained with Charms, and you don't *have* to use a familiar to get 99

 

* Magic was always destined to be trained with Runes, but you DO have to cast spells to get 99

 

 

 

The reason that I make such a bold statement about Construction is because of its nature. It's freaking expensive to train, full stop. When it was first introduced, it was referred to as a mammoth money sink, and that should still hold true to this day -- it would cost about 60-80M to train it to 99 with Oak planks [last time I checked, which was easily a year and a half ago].

 

 

 

So, all of a sudden, a huge opportunity to make money from the "Money Void" appears, and that doesn't raise an eyebrow? Again, I sympathized with both sides here -- I definitely felt that a high level Carpenter (yes, I said Carpenter) should deserve the boost in cash, but at the same time, this skill was never intended to make money to begin with. So suffice to say, Jagex had made the correct choice in identifying this as a bug.

 

 

 

As for the definition of a bug, it can be seen as any software flaw, intentional or not, with a result that differs in any form from the intended results. So yeah, this is a bug. But I guess that Jagex is being good about it and not banning anyone for "bug abuse" -- that'd be a PR nightmare.

[Hajutze]

 

* Magic was always destined to be trained with Runes, but you DO have to cast spells to get 99

 

 

found a flaw :D salamanders - no spells no runes :D (jk .. dont get mad)

[bedman]

At first, I thought that it was a huge error on Jagex's part to "nerf" this, but let's consider this: Was Construction ever destined to make money?

 

While I'd like to agree with you on this point of view, I simply can't due to JaGex's inconsistency when it comes to what qualifies as content that needs to be removed/adjusted and then proceed to claim it was a bug.

 

 

 

Was Prayer ever destined to be trained without ever once using it? The same can be said for Summoning and Magic. Was fletching destined to be a skill trained for the sole purpose of getting a skill cape? No, it was destined to be a skill where players could make supplies to support the ranged skill.

 

 

 

My point is, if we look at how things were destined to be in the game, then I'd say half the game needs to be redone.

 

 

 

That is not to say that this whole travesty should have ever happened. I don't even have 99 Construction and I feel that Jagex stepped over the line to call those who used it BUG ABUSERS. That is an insult to every legitimate player out there.

 

But you see, in JaGex's eyes those people ARE bug abusers because they've already essentially said that anything they do not like and doesn't fall under another rule, is a bug. That's their definition - it may seem stupid (it is), but that's the one they use.

 

 

 

 

 

To begin with, your parallels to those skills make no sense -

 

* Prayer was always destined to be trained with bones, and you never had to use prayers to get 99

 

* Summoning was always destined to be trained with Charms, and you don't *have* to use a familiar to get 99

 

* Magic was always destined to be trained with Runes, but you DO have to cast spells to get 99

 

 

 

The reason that I make such a bold statement about Construction is because of its nature. It's freaking expensive to train, full stop. When it was first introduced, it was referred to as a mammoth money sink, and that should still hold true to this day -- it would cost about 60-80M to train it to 99 with Oak planks [last time I checked, which was easily a year and a half ago].

 

 

 

So, all of a sudden, a huge opportunity to make money from the "Money Void" appears, and that doesn't raise an eyebrow? Again, I sympathized with both sides here -- I definitely felt that a high level Carpenter (yes, I said Carpenter) should deserve the boost in cash, but at the same time, this skill was never intended to make money to begin with. So suffice to say, Jagex had made the correct choice in identifying this as a bug.

 

 

 

As for the definition of a bug, it can be seen as any software flaw, intentional or not, with a result that differs in any form from the intended results. So yeah, this is a bug. But I guess that Jagex is being good about it and not banning anyone for "bug abuse" -- that'd be a PR nightmare.

 

 

 

I agree with you when you say it wasn't intended and should have been nerfed. However, like most have stated already, there's a few different ways of how you can nerf something. You can say nothing and just nerf it down to hell, or you can warn the players first, and nerf it slightly, so it still has some use. Now, the reward from the lvl 3 boots is just plain useless.

 

 

 

And about it being a bug, cmon! Please, please explain me how this is a "bug". They litteraly said, the Grihm's advisor will pay the GE price. That's exactly what he did. Not more, not less. If they at least had some brains, they'd double check every flatpack, but no, they didn't...

[Sly_Wizard]

The lesson here: Don't be greedy. If you know something is too good to be true, it probably is.

 

 

 

As I said in an earlier post, everyone and their mothers knew this was going to be nerfed. So why are people suddenly so surprised and up in arms when the nerf came? Furthermore, why should Jagex have provided you with adequate warning so you could take further advantage of something you KNEW would be later corrected?

 

 

 

I really don't get it :?

[bedman]

The lesson here: Don't be greedy. If you know something is too good to be true, it probably is.

 

 

 

As I said in an earlier post, everyone and their mothers knew this was going to be nerfed. So why are people suddenly so surprised and up in arms when the nerf came? Furthermore, why should Jagex have provided you with adequate warning so you could take further advantage of something you KNEW would be later corrected?

 

 

 

I really don't get it :?

 

 

 

Cause normally, when a nerf comes, you dont loose a ton of money. Lets take the sara GWD "bug" for example. When they nerfed it, nobody suddenly lost millions. Okay, people lost a way to make easy millions, but they didnt directly loose them. Now however, people saw 100m cash just turning into 10M cash...

 

(bout the nerfing, okay, when they nerf claws, a lot of people will loose a lot of money instantly too).

[iwatake]

They didn't have to nerf it to oblivion.

 

 

 

10% is a COMPLETE WASTE OF TIME.

 

 

 

Maybe if I broke even, or lost some money, I wouldn't care, but 10% is completely and utterly worthless. If I'm going to be running to and from the bank selling my useless flatpacks for 10% I won't bother.

 

 

 

I might as well keep them as junk for pete's sake!

 

 

 

If jagex was trying to get rid of some junk trading here, they failed miserably.

 

 

 

I understand that the higher, more expensive and profitable flatpacks with this rate needed to be nerfed, but I mean come on. They might as have not bothered with this reward at a 10% rate as it is now.

[Madmanpur3]

[hide=quotes]

At first, I thought that it was a huge error on Jagex's part to "nerf" this, but let's consider this: Was Construction ever destined to make money?

 

While I'd like to agree with you on this point of view, I simply can't due to JaGex's inconsistency when it comes to what qualifies as content that needs to be removed/adjusted and then proceed to claim it was a bug.

 

 

 

Was Prayer ever destined to be trained without ever once using it? The same can be said for Summoning and Magic. Was fletching destined to be a skill trained for the sole purpose of getting a skill cape? No, it was destined to be a skill where players could make supplies to support the ranged skill.

 

 

 

My point is, if we look at how things were destined to be in the game, then I'd say half the game needs to be redone.

 

 

 

That is not to say that this whole travesty should have ever happened. I don't even have 99 Construction and I feel that Jagex stepped over the line to call those who used it BUG ABUSERS. That is an insult to every legitimate player out there.

 

But you see, in JaGex's eyes those people ARE bug abusers because they've already essentially said that anything they do not like and doesn't fall under another rule, is a bug. That's their definition - it may seem stupid (it is), but that's the one they use.

[/hide]

 

 

 

 

 

To begin with, your parallels to those skills make no sense -

 

* Prayer was always destined to be trained with bones, and you never had to use prayers to get 99

 

* Summoning was always destined to be trained with Charms, and you don't *have* to use a familiar to get 99

 

* Magic was always destined to be trained with Runes, but you DO have to cast spells to get 99

 

 

 

The reason that I make such a bold statement about Construction is because of its nature. It's freaking expensive to train, full stop. When it was first introduced, it was referred to as a mammoth money sink, and that should still hold true to this day -- it would cost about 60-80M to train it to 99 with Oak planks [last time I checked, which was easily a year and a half ago].

 

You said construction was never destined to make money, so I said that prayer was never destined to be raised without the intent of ever using it, which is obvious because if jagex never meant for it to be used they would've never created the skill - yet there are plenty of players who have prayer levels above 1 that never use it. There's a thread on RSOF where a guy is aiming to get 99 summoning without ever summoning a familiar...this is not how jagex "destined" the summoning skill to be used.

 

 

 

Basically, there are a lot of features of skills and other content in the game that are used/done in a way that they were never destined to be used/done - this is why I can't agree with you on your point about how Construction was never meant to make money.

 

 

 

Also, I would like to point out something that's been brushed upon already...because Construction is such an expensive skill to train, that's all the more reason it SHOULD yield some sort of benefit once you reach those higher levels. Smithing is expensive to train if you look purely at the cost of materials to 99, but in the end you get a lot back of what you put in. Same for Summoning, Cooking, Crafting, etc.

[green9090]

Also, I would like to point out something that's been brushed upon already...because Construction is such an expensive skill to train, that's all the more reason it SHOULD yield some sort of benefit once you reach those higher levels. Smithing is expensive to train if you look purely at the cost of materials to 99, but in the end you get a lot back of what you put in. Same for Summoning, Cooking, Crafting, etc.

 

Wait, what? Last I checked, 99 smithing still had pretty iffy profits. Crafting, as far as I know, doesn't make significant money either. Cooking- lol wut? All you get at 99 is all of the most effective ways to waste money on cooking exp.

[Makoto_the_Phoenix]

Also, I would like to point out something that's been brushed upon already...because Construction is such an expensive skill to train, that's all the more reason it SHOULD yield some sort of benefit once you reach those higher levels. Smithing is expensive to train if you look purely at the cost of materials to 99, but in the end you get a lot back of what you put in. Same for Summoning, Cooking, Crafting, etc.

 

 

 

Mmm....no. Not with Construction. The "benefit" is to have a really nice house, and the purpose (not just destiny) of the whole skill is to drain as much money out of the game as possible. Consider that at level 95, it costs 10M to put a Steel Dragon in your house; depending on the current situation of Magic Stones, it can cost upward of 22.5M to put a Demonic Throne in your house as well.

 

 

 

That's why I stand by my second instinct and say that this "nerf" was appropriate. Construction, even at its highest skills, stands to drain exorbitant amounts of cash out of the game.

 

 

 

Aside: Gotta agree with green9090 about the other skills. Smithing hasn't been profitable since Rune fell below 300K.

[Madmanpur3]

Quote me where I said they were profitable, please.

 

 

 

I said you get a lot back of what you put into them...meaning you'll get a good 70-90% back in most cases.

[Flyingjj]

 

Aside: Gotta agree with green9090 about the other skills. Smithing hasn't been profitable since Rune fell below 300K.

 

Smithing is profitable if you know how to train it.

 

 

 

Everyone and his dog knows that they couldn't announce this "nerf." If they did, everyone would have tried to take advantage of it and would have introduced millions into the economy, inflating prices for the average scaper.

[aznmidget448]

Wait, what? Last I checked, 99 smithing still had pretty iffy profits. Crafting, as far as I know, doesn't make significant money either. Cooking- lol wut? All you get at 99 is all of the most effective ways to waste money on cooking exp.

 

 

 

You forgot the fancy cape :P

 

 

 

I'm personally getting it for the trim on my wc one :thumbsup:

[Kolin]

 

Aside: Gotta agree with green9090 about the other skills. Smithing hasn't been profitable since Rune fell below 300K.

 

Smithing is profitable if you know how to train it.

 

 

 

 

Exactly, which is how I made 35m profit in the last 3 days, spending no more than 3 - 4 hrs to get it in total lol. There are ways to make money in almost every skill, except on many you have to look really hard, and do a bit of trial and error to find out how.

 

 

 

As for this nerf, I never really knew about this "bug" until the nerf happened, but if I found a way to make 2m + Cash an hr from a small update that many people could do (taking away the construction level needed to take advantage of it), I'd have it in my mind that it probably wasn't right, and would only do ~ 1 load at a time. I'm not blaming people for investing money into it, but anybody who's complaining should not be complaining about losing the money (Which most actually aren't).

 

 

 

The only thing I can think of is the way Jagex mentioned on them not taking action against those who abused this. They really made it sound like people doing this were bad players, and knew that it was a "wrong" thing to abuse. This is not true, as 99% of these players doing this probably looked at this method as a reward from getting the level 3 boots, and not a "bug", but just something that may be nerfed soon.

 

 

 

I feel sorry for those who lost alot of money, but you have to take risks to make profit sometimes, and sometimes those risks can bite you in the behind.

[NukeMarine]

I'm in the category that one should live with the idea that Jagex will change things at a moments notice (sometimes without the notice). Now, I do think they should announce it when it can get a character killed.

 

 

 

About the update. Just hearing that you can make cash off items depending on the GE value stinks of bad news. Anyway, it was not a bug, it was a major oversight. As the game continues to get larger, every single update has untold (and unforseen) consequences. People have got to stop moaning that Jagex does this. They've been doing this for 6 years, at what point are you going to stop suffering from amnesia.

 

 

 

Example of bug: Player A realizes that if he takes a stat boost potion, teleport to the wilderness and log-outs, his character keeps the stat boost permanently when he logs back into a server. This is problem with coding, timing, servers and a host of other issues. As said, the Falador Massacre bug is such an example.

 

 

 

Example of oversight: Player B realizes he can alchemy noted crystal items on F2P. Another player realizes he can bank his 10k experience lamp on F2P. Both are programmed by Jagex, they just didn't cover eventualities.

 

 

 

Example of exploit: Player C realizes he can cannon the five wallasakies, netting 100k range experience and 1 million profit per hour selling full skeletals. This is an exploit since as soon as word gets out, then price of skeletals will drop due to flooding.

 

 

 

Ok, guess it just goes to one's viewpoint. Still, this flatpack thing was a big oversight and one that should not have happened.

[nyyankees588]

Heh your example for exploit was actually something of truth when graahk pouches were up at 50k a piece. I was making about 700k per hour and 80k range exp there.

[Blutters]

I'm in the category that one should live with the idea that Jagex will change things at a moments notice (sometimes without the notice). Now, I do think they should announce it when it can get a character killed.

 

 

 

About the update. Just hearing that you can make cash off items depending on the GE value stinks of bad news. Anyway, it was not a bug, it was a major oversight. As the game continues to get larger, every single update has untold (and unforseen) consequences. People have got to stop moaning that Jagex does this. They've been doing this for 6 years, at what point are you going to stop suffering from amnesia.

 

 

 

Example of bug: Player A realizes that if he takes a stat boost potion, teleport to the wilderness and log-outs, his character keeps the stat boost permanently when he logs back into a server. This is problem with coding, timing, servers and a host of other issues. As said, the Falador Massacre bug is such an example.

 

 

 

Example of oversight: Player B realizes he can alchemy noted crystal items on F2P. Another player realizes he can bank his 10k experience lamp on F2P. Both are programmed by Jagex, they just didn't cover eventualities.

 

 

 

Example of exploit: Player C realizes he can cannon the five wallasakies, netting 100k range experience and 1 million profit per hour selling full skeletals. This is an exploit since as soon as word gets out, then price of skeletals will drop due to flooding.

 

 

 

Ok, guess it just goes to one's viewpoint. Still, this flatpack thing was a big oversight and one that should not have happened.

 

Are all of those real? The only one that doesn't sound very true is the bug but the others sound plausible.

[NukeMarine]

The bug about the stat boost was from Ultima Online (gods, that thing had bugs beyond belief).

 

 

 

Runescape had some pretty bad bugs: Insta death at Juna, Repeatable quest reward from Waterfall Quest, Falador Massacre, Pk'ing inside the abyss, One-hit the Kalphite Queen, Long range fire breath, Attacking people outside of Castle Wars from inside, and the all time favorite duplicating bug.

 

 

 

Interesting oversights that I recall: XP from barricades, Guthix tea not counting as food, Cannon the Kalphite Queen, banking XP reward lamps. I'm sure there's many more, I'm just drawing a blank. Pretty much every nerf deals with oversights.

 

 

 

Interesting exploits: Snapdragon seeds (could buy for 5k each, which potions sold for that price too), Magic tree roots (sell amulet for price of the seed), Unid herbs (buy for 1k each with little chance to get scammed), Chinchompas, Mage stores on server resets (5k runes in stock, minimum price), Veracs at Kalphite Queen, safe spot at DK's and many, many more. These of course were worth millions or great training till word got out. Then either the market flooded or the spots got swarmed.