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Chasing Perfection: Jagex's Quest for a PvP Utopia


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#1
Zaaps1
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I am here to talk about PvP updates. We all know the story, so I will not be mentioning the exact details of all of Jagex's updates to PvP. I assume you know them all ready. If you do not, there are many more threads for you to read up about it.



Let's all take a moment and remember the "old" wild. It was back when the rules were clear and simple: Kill whoever you want, and don't get killed. Any white dot on the map could've meant your death, and any timid players were afraid even to transverse a small portion of the wilderness.



There we no safespots in the wild. Every since square inch was fair game.



Of course, this wilderness had its faults. Like today, there were the Pjers and one-itemers. And of course, the root of all evil: RWT'ers. But why didn't we see many complaints back then? Surely, Jagex's PvP updates cause an uproar, but just what is it about the old wild that made it so loved? The answer is easy: simplicity. There were very few rules. It was quite clear in the old wild: attack and kill whoever you choose, and try to survive whoever did so to yourself.



And let's not forget a critical fact. In the old wilderness, the players were molded by the system. Jagex set rules into stone, and the players developed around those rules. We all know what the wilderness is like now. What Jagex is trying to do is base the game around the mold the players have established, while still trying to maintain the old wilderness style. Given their new agenda, this is impossible, and Jagex is simply chasing perfection.



If any of you know me well, you will know I am not a big critic of Jagex. I do my best to understand their updates and to support their actions, since, generally speaking, I believe they know what they are doing and they know how to run their game.



But the scale of PvP updates we've gotten in the past 2 years is ridiculous. This wild train has gone on for too long. We are all sick of hearing of a new PvP patch every other week, whether it is small or big. We all just want this to be over with, and we all want Jagex to fix this. How? That is the purpose of me writing this.



But what has Jagex done, exactly? It all begins with one change: Get rid of RWT. This lead to a plethora of problems. In the end, Jagex solved it by introducing Bounty Hunter.



But Bounty Hunter was such a crude fix. In order to combat PvP, a whole network of advanced rules were added, such as carried wealth, bounty targets, bounty rouges, death pile timers, and so on. In addition, Jagex made the mistake of grouping all players into just 3 combat level groups.



The next model was a bit better. There were no "bounty targets" of any sort. This new model was PvP worlds. With it, however, came another problem: the EP system. Now, anyone could gain better drops not by hunting tougher targets, but standing around mindlessly for longer. Soon, Bounty Worlds were released to add a greater "old wild" feel. However, the bounty hunter system was reinstated.



Finally, let's not forget the last two patches: Removal of Protect item and +1 item worlds.



What damage have all of these updates caused? What has caused such damage?



Let me point to one problem: arrogance. No, not of the players, of Jagex. Jagex is arrogant and does not like to admit the failure of an update. Jagex does not like to see their work be left useless, even if it is a complete failure. What do we have as a result? A huge eyesore of a wilderness crater, for one. Jagex could have trashed that area completely and returned "old wild" structures, but Jagex is arrogant and does not want to admit failure. So when BH was shut down, Jagex did not apologize for taking up a huge chunk of wilderness but instead gave us a vague message that it will be put to use. What is the use? A few monsters? Is that what 20% of the wilderness is? Just an empty volcano filled with monsters no one wants to hunt? And the bigger question: Why is it still there? Why could Jagex not simply dispose of the BH crater? Everyone can agree that it was not necessary to add all those monsters. They were all fine before. Jagex states that it'll help make other locations less crowded, but on that end, the update failed to do its job. The volcano isn't even a viable place to kill those monsters since there are too few and too far apart. If Jagex is to really solve this problem, they must first rid themselves of their arrogance.



What else did Jagex do to PvP? They did not want to keep it simple and try to replace the old wild as much as they could. No. They decided to add all of this useless fluff to the PvP system. The entire Bounty idea was pointless. There's little need to disable protect item, either, and therefore there was no reason for +1 item worlds. Jagex says that they removed protect item partly to cripple Pjers and 1 itemers. YES THEY ARE ANNOYING, but we don't need Jagex to make such a SWEEPING update to the ENTIRE PvP system to "solve" that problem. And what's more the VERY NEXT DAY, they release new BH worlds that they should've named "Heaven for 1-Itemers". It's a PJer's Playground.



We don't need all of this, Jagex. You are trying to please everyone, and by doing so, are you pleasing no one. No one can say they are happy with all of your PvP updates. By trying to please everyone, you simply walk down a path to nowhere.



Let me offer an inconvenient truth: No matter how hard you try, you cannot make everyone happy. I expect a company like Jagex to understand this. No, we don't need any of this "compensation" for the loss of old pking. We don't need any "better rewards". What do we need? A simple system that does its absolute best to mirror the old wild, but fancy rules and fluffy updates kept to a bare minimum.



But where do these answers lie? It's simple: in the past.



So what am I saying? Here's exactly what I want Jagex to do. First, Jagex, you must discard of your arrogance. Your PvP updates in the past 2 years have given an alternative to the old wild, but let's be honest, you have failed in your goal to preserve it. FAILED. There are too many rules and extra features. Admit you failed, since that is the first step. Next, clear the entire drawing board. EVERY SINGLE LAST SCRAP. All of these PvP ideas you have come up with in the last 2 years cannot remain in your mind if you are to find a real fix. Remove of all of these ideas. Thank you for your time in developing it, but needless to say, it's better you forget about them while working on the real fix.



Third, acknowledge that you can't please everyone. Find the inevitables and admit they are there. Yes, there will always be PJers. Sorry, but you can't fix that. Yes, there will always be people who complain about losing their items. Sorry, but you can't fix that. Acknowledge that there are some things you simply can't fix, and accept that there will be people unhappy with that fact. Unfortunately, they will have to deal with it. Caving into the demands of these groups will only make matters worse, as demonstrated in the most recent PvP patch.



Fourth, revisit the past. What made the old wilderness system so successful? Why did the people who got rich pking get rich pking?



Fifth, remember your job. Your job is to remake the old wilderness as best as you can. Your job is NOT to compensate us for the loss of the old wilderness with fancy rewards or a new, "exciting" system. Stick to the script, and minimize your changes. The last thing you want to add into the game is another Bounty Hunter system.



Exactly what type of changes am I talking about? here are some examples.



In the old wild, did those who stood around doing nothing get the best kills? Of course not. Who did? Those who risked the most, fought the most, and had the best pking skills and stats did. That being said, EP as it is now should not be one of the criteria for getting better drops. What should be? How about total kills, total deaths, total damage dealt, etc.?



And ask yourself another question: Should players be TOLD their drop potential? Of course not! That only invites the system of 26k'ing.



But don't misunderstand me. There are some good aspects of your PvP updates that should definitely be kept, at least in some form. The EP idea was good, but its execution was terrible. For example, gaining EP by just standing around was a horrid idea, and disclosing players' EP was an even worse one. Rework everything to make it was close to the old wild as possible. Did old wild pkers know exactly how much they would get from an opponent? Of course not. So why should modern pkers?



And of course, there must be more complex rules than the old wild. But let's keep those to a minimum? And certainly, let's not introduce any new concepts. Once again, just do your best to replace the old wild. We don't need anything more than that.



This, is my view on the way Jagex should've approached this from the beginning. And as these days turn into weeks, then months, then years, Jagex has drifted further away from their goal. They will never solve this problem this way.



Let's all take a moment and imagine what we have all sacrificed because of the PvP updates. How many less quests have we gotten? How many smaller updates have we gotten? How many less skills and actually WORTHFUL updates have we gotten? And even in-game, how has our entire gameplay experience changed? Has Jagex's endless loop of PvP updates caused this? Why has Jagex continued to make these neverending PvP updates? Has Jagex fallen into infinity, forever stuck chasing perfection? Or can they solve this yet by clearing their mind and looking into what really matters, and what we all really want?

#2
Dragonlordjl
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inb4tl;dr



Good post, though, I agree with everything you said. Arrogance is a HUGE issue with not just the PvP updates but MOST updates. Countless times in the past has Jagex taken ideas from players and warped them to fit their own agendas, just because they couldn't bear to create something that wasn't of their own ingenuity. With the bug that cost one poor guy 350m, Jagex apologized and then had the gall to say "I gave you an apology, and that doesn't happen very often."



Imo, the best solution to the PvP update is to keep the auto-skull, but remove the "no protect item" thing on all worlds, and make it where you cannot attack another player (retaliations are an exception) unless you are risking 75k aside from your most expensive item (aka the one you would protect). This would enable one-iteming, but one itemers would not be "mosquitoes" but instead easy prey. If they wanted to one-item, they'd have to risk 75k and therefore they'd quickly bankrupt themselves by dying so easily. The biggest issue with one-itemers in the past has been that they waste your supplies, but when you kill them you get nothing and they lose nothing. This would fix that.
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#3
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^ + 1

^^ + 1



I truely have gotten tired of all the PVP updates its upgrade year not PVP year.



Edit:PVP leads with 7 game updates which were post worthy while quests drag on with 6. :l
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#4
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I'm actually nearly satisfied with the updates. There is a place for real pking, and there is a place for 1 iteming. They just need fixes on the risk bug in +1 worlds, and to do something about "tricking" and their far too generous drop tables. I've seen many great suggestions for these problems on both these forums and the RSOF. I can only hope Jagex takes notice to some of the better ones, and implements them into the update that they stated was planned for the future.



I do get rather annoyed when we get another update just as I adjust to the first, though (since I won't want to lose a bunch on merch clans buying out or dumping the pvp items). However, I do like the greater demons in the Wilderness Volcano for slayer. Jagex simply needs to think their updates through entirely, post some polls, and ask the community what they think. No doubt there will always be complaints, but the severity of the complaints should be a factor taken into consideration.


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#5
Dragonlordjl
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I'm actually nearly satisfied with the updates. There is a place for real pking, and there is a place for 1 iteming. They just need fixes on the risk bug in +1 worlds, and to do something about "tricking" and their far too generous drop tables. I've seen many great suggestions for these problems on both these forums and the RSOF. I can only hope Jagex takes notice to some of the better ones, and implements them into the update that they stated was planned for the future.



I do get rather annoyed when we get another update just as I adjust to the first, though (since I won't want to lose a bunch on merch clans buying out or dumping the pvp items). However, I do like the greater demons in the Wilderness Volcano for slayer. Jagex simply needs to think their updates through entirely, post some polls, and ask the community what they think. No doubt there will always be complaints, but the severity of the complaints should be a factor taken into consideration.




Noooo, don't ask the community what they think. Polls are ALWAYS swayed by noob bias, because there are significantly more noobs than knowledgeable players.
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#6
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I didn't say they had to take anything from the results, just ask. Everyone complains that Jagex doesn't ask the community for their input, and this may shut them up. Although, they would need to hide the results from the public as well. :lol:


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#7
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I agree, mate. I really do. Everything, EVERYTHING, you said rings true.



This system, filled with convoluted rules and rewarding those who manipulate it, is a complete and utter failure. I really can't suggest or say anything you haven't. I mean, PvP worlds are failures in EVERY way. They're supposedly supposed to be used by skillers as well, but with a 100% loss per death, who is going to go there, even with less competition? I know I won't.

If the CORPORAL beast is this hard, imagine how hard a GENERAL or COLONEL beast would be. a corporal is not even an admirable rank in armies that use that ranking system.


Yeah, it is a pking minigame, so any arguments anybody makes will probably be biased.
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#8
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I agree with everything you said. However, Jagex is too far into the 'abolish RWT' attitude that they won't listen to any suggestions that could lead to RWTing no matter how good they are. One day they'll have to decide whether stopping RWT or pleasing their players is the bigger issue and when that day comes I hope they choose the later.
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#9
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interesting read, back in the days 98% of the pkers lost money and the other 2% where the people who where good. PVP shouldnt be a money maker, and showing us howmuch change we have to make money with the ep is like just giving us all the formulas for damge done ect. so we can work those things to our best. PVP now there is money made with hardly any loss, the people who made some money where runing in full armors risking a decent amount, the 1 itemer or pj where there but it wasnt like the made much or that a 1 itemer could take someone in full armor. There are enough incidents that showed JaGeX doesnt admit they failed or where at fault like with the 6/6/06 or with the phat dub. Imo its not that JaGeX doesnt want to believe it failed it doesnt want to show that they made a mistake and take the responcibilty, somehow they are going to face a choice on what they want to do, best for the game or the people(there has to be a balance).

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Amazing, you really highlighted all the errors of the last few years and explained why they were failures. Good read :thumbsup:
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#11
canadiansmurf
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Best post so far that I've read on the whole PVP issue, excellent analysis and great title.



100% agree.



There are too many rules and extra features.




Exactly, PVP should just be listed under minigames now as there are so many rules.



back in the days 98% of the pkers lost money and the other 2% where the people who where good. PVP shouldnt be a money maker


This is the truth.





In the old wild, did those who stood around doing nothing get the best kills? Of course not. Who did? Those who risked the most, fought the most, and had the best pking skills and stats did. That being said, EP as it is now should not be one of the criteria for getting better drops. What should be? How about total kills, total deaths, total damage dealt, etc.?




Agreed. When EP first came out you were punished by having your EP drop when you got too many kills close to each other. It was frustrating getting kills but not getting decent drops. This system actually punishes people who pk well.

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I agree with everything you said. However, Jagex is too far into the 'abolish RWT' attitude that they won't listen to any suggestions that could lead to RWTing no matter how good they are. One day they'll have to decide whether stopping RWT or pleasing their players is the bigger issue and when that day comes I hope they choose the later.






They already chose stopping RWT over their own players. They are fine with losing players.



It will be interesting to see how many people will play Jagex's next online game mechscape. Given the track record with Runescape there's no way I would ever play another Jagex game ever again.

#13
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You can't get change by putting someone on the defensive.



I like a lot of what you said, but the fact that you're saying "YOU need to admit you failed" is just not going to work.



The easiest way to make RWT not work in the wild is have coins, VANISH when you die in the wild.



I mean of course you could spend x Millions on items and kill it sell items, but honestly, there has to be an easier way of dealing with that than what we have.

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#14
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While I do agree with your post, I must disagree with the whole "fighting RWT instead of pleasing players" mindset. They can kill RWT in their own game and keep players pacified, but they haven't stumbled across the magic formula, either. It's true when you said that PvP was simple - kill or be killed - and these new rules and all that stuff totally messed that up. But, there's a way to recover from it - you don't have to nuke everything because it's "failed", because it really hasn't yet. Also, I don't quite understand why everyone's so anti-'anti-RWT' anyways - getting rid of that is a good thing, and the systems needed to replace what you players enjoyed from it (namely getting what they were wearing) just need to be toned down to about 10% of what they are now.

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#15
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Well written, a very nice post.



I agree, Jagex should just make the PKing system just like it used to be, but take into account PvP and not-100%-value-drops.



1. The Wilderness is returned: the further up you go the larger range of levels you can attack.

2. The drops you get are some of the items that your opponent had...value increases with an EP based system, or an alternative you said.

3. PvP worlds: non-wildy areas means everyone can attack everyone, like it used to be in RSC (?), while Wilderness is as described above.

#16
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Thanks for all the posts!



You can't get change by putting someone on the defensive.



I like a lot of what you said, but the fact that you're saying "YOU need to admit you failed" is just not going to work.



The easiest way to make RWT not work in the wild is have coins, VANISH when you die in the wild.



I mean of course you could spend x Millions on items and kill it sell items, but honestly, there has to be an easier way of dealing with that than what we have.




I am not attacking Jagex, I'm merely pointing out a fatal flaw they have repeatably demonstrated. There are many examples of Jagex's arrogance, and there are many consequences of it. It is a problem that they need to solve. While ADMITTING failure doesn't necessarily need to happen (as in a newspost formally apologizing), ACKNOWLEDGMENT does need to happen. Jagex needs to understand that the path they are treading right now will lead them to nowhere. They need to acknowledge this fact. The sooner they do, the sooner they can dig themselves out.



While I do agree with your post, I must disagree with the whole "fighting RWT instead of pleasing players" mindset. They can kill RWT in their own game and keep players pacified, but they haven't stumbled across the magic formula, either. It's true when you said that PvP was simple - kill or be killed - and these new rules and all that stuff totally messed that up. But, there's a way to recover from it - you don't have to nuke everything because it's "failed", because it really hasn't yet. Also, I don't quite understand why everyone's so anti-'anti-RWT' anyways - getting rid of that is a good thing, and the systems needed to replace what you players enjoyed from it (namely getting what they were wearing) just need to be toned down to about 10% of what they are now.




When I said to completely thrash everything in the works, I did not mean to destroy it and never use it again. Far from it. I simply mean that Jagex needs to clear its mind and take a really good look. Jagex needs to understand that the simplest and most elegant solution is. Once they understand that, then they can add whatever they need to (but I stress NEED, the bare minimum is all that is necessary), and many of these may in fact be concepts they've used in the past two years (EP for example, has a very viable future, but not in its current form).



It's true that it hasn't 100% failed yet, but it's on its way. Less and less people are happy with all of these PvP updates. Frankly, I'm tired of them. Jagex dug its own grave when they strayed from their real goal. The only way they can solve this problem is by going back to that bare basic goal and working from that, and only that.

#17
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You forgot the original original wild which was the entire world map. It was actually tldr but I will come back later and read it. Just wanted to remind you about originally being allowed to pk anywhere.
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#18
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Reading this thread..



I normally agree with Jagex and at least give them at chance to develop their ideas in hopes they will be accepted, but now its just going to far with the PvP updates.



The current system with the +0 and +1 items is FINE. The whole combat mechanics are FINE.

+0 and +1 favor both parties, as everyone has a world on which they can do things in their favor.



Lets face it. The ONLY problem is the icons and drops.



The problem is Jagex tried to make PvP into a profitable "mini-game" which PvP should have never been. Back in the old wilderness: Good Pker's make money from drops, and the bad had to skill for items to go pking with. That's the way it worked from the beginning, and that's how it SHOULD of been planned now.



I believe Jagex are to focused on making PvP profitable for everyone, even if you lose. I don't want to sound rude, but in all honesty, if you suck at PvP and die 90% of the time, you shouldn't be making profit off of it.



Point being, Jagex need to keep the combat "mechanics" they have now. +0 and +1 worlds are fine. Just trash the whole EP system, make all drops 25%-50%, and leave it from there. No more icons, no more inflation, no more "bumper-bowling" PvP. Most RWT wouldn't even bother to try if most of their items vanish, they could do better elsewhere. And as for the Pk'ers getting drops, If you get kills, you get some items, if you die, you lose money. They cannot honestly expect everyone to make money and there NOT to be some sort of loophole. If that was the case, everyone in the world would be rich right now. SOMEONE has to lose.



But your right, Jagex need to just keep it simple.

My Message to Jagex: PVP is not about making profit if you die all the time, don't try to make the system do that, or you'll always end up running off cliffs.
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#19
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My personal thoughts are that you can only recieve as much as the opponent is risking.



Also that the person you kill cannot of been on your friends list in the past 48 hours. (This may end DM's, but as you have stated, not everyone can be satisfied.)



I wont mention others as I think other people have mentioned them before.
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demby123
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demby123

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My personal thoughts are that you can only recieve as much as the opponent is risking.


If you get the same,RWT. If less,thats less reward for an already high risk.



Also that the person you kill cannot of been on your friends list in the past 48 hours. (This may end DM's, but as you have stated, not everyone can be satisfied.)


Clan chats could be a loophole.
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