Fansite Support (Re-launch)

[Carl]

Perhaps you don't want any support from Jagex for your fansite, okay. We understand. But what's wrong with removing a few adverts and actually gaining that added support? With prizes for competitions, Jagex Moderators attending TET events? Seriously - quit the complaining. This is way over the top and I'm seeing the same two common faces complaining for no damn reason other than.. To complain? Seriously, give it a rest. The adverts have been removed, Tip.It will go platinum in a few weeks time (hopefully) and that's the end of it. Okay? Ranting continuously will not change a thing, you must have realised that by now? I see it all the time, it won't get you anywhere and won't help Tip.It.

[das]

are you guys still missing that without doing ANYTHING we will be platinum next month?

[AdamMonkey0]

After reading the RSOF thread and this thread entirely, I kind of understand why Tip.it isn't Platinium. I'm glad to hear that it's certain that it will be, but I wish Jagex would hurry up the process :|

 

I stand by my post I made on the RSOF thread though: "Tip.it is perhaps better than the RSOF". Probably should have written "Tip.it is wayyyy better than the RSOF" :D Bring on the Plantinium, and thanks to the Admins who worked hard to get it <3:

[Ts_Stormrage]

Now all I have to say that we darn sure better have a column about this because there is so much discussion to be had. I swear to God if it's just another column about clans and clan updates I'm going to flip. :evil:

Not this week, but in the near future there might be :)

[Jehosaphat]

I'm kinda hoping that TipIt DOESN'T get platinum. Why? Because if it does, we'll have a flood of RSOFers coming here because we actually have an active forum.

 

And we all know that whenever a flood of RSOFers get involved, nothing good can come of it.

[Me_Hate_Libs]

Now all I have to say that we darn sure better have a column about this because there is so much discussion to be had. I swear to God if it's just another column about clans and clan updates I'm going to flip. :evil:

Not this week, but in the near future there might be :)

 

Really? I'm surprised no one was able to knock one out quickly. Just no clan column please. :thumbup:

 

And if I'm one of those two people you're referring to Carl, I'm not complaining for no reason. I have a reason you simply don't agree with it's validity.

[qeltar]

Seriously - quit the complaining.

No. If I'm breaking any of your precious rules, ban me. Otherwise, I have as much right to express my views as anyone else here.

 

And if you had any confidence in your views on this, you wouldn't feel so threatened by a couple of people having a differing viewpoint.

 

I've already said that it's Tip.it's decision to make, and that I understand why they did it. I just don't agree with the decision. My anger is primarily not with Tip.it, but with Jagex, for engaging in what I consider inappropriate behavior. The fact that almost nobody around here seems to give a crap about what is right doesn't change the validity of my position.

[britonlongbow]

To people saying "this thread shows why we're not platinum" I say you are dead wrong. Discussion about a topic that really can be looked at as a company trying to exert more power than it should over its community is extremely valid (though I personally don't agree). I don't think MHL or Qeltar are expressing their concerns because they feel like Jagex did step over that line, but what has it created ? Discussion about the topic. And what are you supposed to do on a discussion forum but discuss issues related to the topic of the forum. If you want to see what happens when there is blind following without debate see Animal Farm.

[Gandorf61]

While I was a little disappointed in seeing Tip.it only at a gold level, it was understandable after reading Mod Hohbein's post and Tip.it will most likely be upped to Platinum within the coming month anyways.

 

The way I see it is Jagex wants this:

 

• Removal of Game Ads
  

And in return Tip.it receives the following benefits:

 

• Officially Recognized (meaning tip.it can be talked about in game)
  
• TET Event Support (With Jagex advertising and in game Mods)
  
• Exclusive Staff Interviews
  
• Exclusive Concept Art
  
• Jagex merchandise for competition prizes
  

To me Jagex isn't asking a lot in return for all of that. Tip.it isn't even losing any money from the advertisements a lot of people have blocked in the first place. On top of that Jagex aren't controlling our advertisements, they are merely requesting that we remove game ads and in return for granting that request they will give us a bunch of stuff for the community to enjoy.

 

There's no point in getting all worked up about the "what if's" that are most likely never going to happen. I have no doubt that if Jagex did start wanting to control our content (which would be a ridiculous move on Jagex's part) the Admin team would immediately end the relationship and do whatever is best for Tip.it as a whole.

 

We may not agree with Jagex's logic behind not wanting game ads but I think attacking Jagex on the grounds that they are are being a power hungry company bent on controlling all fansites is just going too far. Removing the game ads doesn't even hurt this community in any way so I can't see why so many people are so up tight about this whole thing. I think we just need to calm down a bit and have a little faith in Jagex, at least just this once.

 

Tip.it will always remain the same great community it has always been and this isn't changing anything about that. On the whole it's going to provide us with opportunities to improve and expand our community instead.

[jsboutin2]

You people are so young... Arguing about things that are of little importance.

 

I'm 24 years old and spend enough time on here as well as having enough perspective to recognize that this was wrong.

 

You're 24 years old yet are trolling that much??? Wow. way to prove that maturity isn't related to one's age. [/irony]

 

Actually, this is the [only] thread in which I have to agree that you make a valid argumentation, even though I don't agree with it.

 

Jagex is a business and, believe it or not, there probably is a bunch of marketing experts who carefully analyzed what 's better to dofrom a company point of view. And I certainly hope Jagex continues to make money, because I want that game to last.

 

I don't really see why we argue.

 

1) It's not like the admins were forced to do it. They mad3e a choice, and that's their decision.

2)Nobody's gonna miss those games ads.

3)More content=good

 

I don't see how we are losing anything, here. Except if you feel you're gonna miss peeking at those "Come play, my lord" ads...

[qeltar]

We may not agree with Jagex's logic behind not wanting game ads but I think attacking Jagex on the grounds that they are are being a power hungry company bent on controlling all fansites is just going too far.

How is that going too far? From where I sit, that's *exactly* what has happened here.

 

If you guys want to rah-rah this, then fine, but let's not rewrite history. The way this started was that Jagex created a "safe list" of fan sites, and then removed Tip.it from it because Tip.it was running competitor ads. That *is* controlling behavior, and it *did* materially affect Tip.it's business for a very long time. They didn't just say "Tip.it isn't a site we are partnering with". They basically implied that they didn't consider Tip.it "safe", and from what I have read, they made mentioning the name of the site against the rules. All over ads -- not over the site.

 

This is a power play, pure and simple, and that isn't changed by the fact that Jages is now throwing in a few carrots to go along with their stick. I'm amazed at how easily fooled some of you are, but I do give Jagex credit: they threw in a few little benefits and everyone willingly goes along with their restrictions.

 

The carrots may be nice, but the big stick is still looming. And that's what pisses me off.

[Robert_R]

qeltar, has jagex talked to you about runescoop?

[Omali]

You're 24 years old yet are trolling that much??? Wow. way to prove that maturity isn't related to one's age. [/irony]

 

No one calls MHL a troll but me! /jealous

 

 

 

But this isn't Jagex "bullying," this is just Jagex being the usual nanny-state developer they've always been. It's like having a neighbor who demands you go over every inch of your house with a swiffer vac and a sanitized wipe before he'll even set foot in the place. He's well intended, but ends up showing himself as condescending and controlling.

[das]

Now all I have to say that we darn sure better have a column about this because there is so much discussion to be had. I swear to God if it's just another column about clans and clan updates I'm going to flip. :evil:

Not this week, but in the near future there might be :)

 

Just no clan column please. :thumbup:

 

 

Whats wrong with clans exactly?

 

I thought of writing one, this post has pretty much killed that idea.

[Gandorf61]

The way this started was that Jagex created a "safe list" of fan sites, and then removed Tip.it from it because Tip.it was running competitor ads.

 

Well if we truly are a Runescape fan site wouldn't it make sense to support Jagex by not running competitor ads? I do however believe that if Runescape is a great enough game Jagex shouldn't have to worry about stopping competitor advertisements. The players will just keep playing Runescape even with the game advertisements. However Jagex have a different opinion and I think that the least we can do as a fan site is respect their opinion and agree to their request.

 

If Jagex had released this version of the fan site safe list from the beginning no would be complaining. It seems that the only reason why people are angry is because of how Jagex didn't get it right the first time. If the new guidelines for fan sites had been put forth since the start of Jagex's involvement with fan sites no one would have thought twice. This new list isn't a list of safe sites but rather a list of ones that meet Jagex's guidelines and are going to receive benefits for making the effort to.

 

As for the whole "how easily we're fooled", perhaps it's just that we can't see how going along with their restrictions is hurting us. Plainly put it isn't at all. We're not receiving the worse end of the deal and this agreement can only be beneficial for both the community and Jagex.

[misterxman]

Well it's only been a few days since this update, one can only speculate about the future, best thing to do is let things run as they are now and see what happens in the long run. Worst case scenario, Tipit drops the deal and we go back to the way things were.

 

Jagex needs this more than Tipit does. Not like Tipit ever needed advertisement on the official game website to successfully attract players :P

[Ts_Stormrage]

RuneHQ and Sals being on platinum and Tip.it not does seem kind of odd, and I too am of the opinion that it shows that it is not fansite quality, but cooperation with jagex' demands that get you high ranks...

 

But let's leave our crappy competitors out of it for a minute...

 

We have now the choice to:

 

A) Do nothing, leave things as they are, and miss out on a couple of extra perks.

2) Remove the other-game-ly ads that hardly anyone notices, let alone clicks, anyways, and get the top exclusive content that this fansite deserves.

 

I'm inclined to go with the latter option, because even if it is a demand from Jagex, complying with it doesn't have ANY effect on anyones daily routine here at Tip.it, but it may affect Tip.it's funds...

And if the funds we're really endangered, don't you think someone wouldve thrown up the red flag by now?

 

BTW, Jagex, if you read this; make a Diamond level, for the one fansite that has been the bestest platinum for the past 6 months and keep that competition running indefinitly...

 

On a personal note, my antivirus makes all ads into a nice unclickable white bar, so I couldnt help filter out the wrong ads even if I wanted to :)

[elucin8er]

Lol at Jagex not wanting to direct people to tip it because the fans may play a game advertised here.... So instead of giving tip it the platinum rating for the factors the system claims to uphold, they give it gold in order to protect their members staying with RS ...

 

Just wow, maybe in their platinum description it should read

 

"Must be loyal to Runescape and not play / advertise other games else we won't rate your Runescape content as decent."

 

How pathetic. I knew lately the content was going into ensuring more members, i.e. more money. But simply failing to acknowledge an amazing fan site merely for it's advertisement is inexcusable.

[Will H]

RuneHQ and Sals being on platinum and Tip.it not does seem kind of odd, and I too am of the opinion that it shows that it is not fansite quality, but cooperation with jagex' demands that get you high ranks...

 

But let's leave our crappy competitors out of it for a minute...

 

We have now the choice to:

 

A) Do nothing, leave things as they are, and miss out on a couple of extra perks.

2) Remove the other-game-ly ads that hardly anyone notices, let alone clicks, anyways, and get the top exclusive content that this fansite deserves.

 

I'm inclined to go with the latter option, because even if it is a demand from Jagex, complying with it doesn't have ANY effect on anyones daily routine here at Tip.it, but it may affect Tip.it's funds...

And if the funds we're really endangered, don't you think someone wouldve thrown up the red flag by now?

 

BTW, Jagex, if you read this; make a Diamond level, for the one fansite that has been the bestest platinum for the past 6 months and keep that competition running indefinitly...

 

On a personal note, my antivirus makes all ads into a nice unclickable white bar, so I couldnt help filter out the wrong ads even if I wanted to :)

 

That's a false dilemma, there's also option Ω) Tell Jagex that we don't agree with this situation, as we are perfectly entitled to do. If Jagex are going to be community focused and stick to their original plan set out by Mod MMG, they'll reply and we can initiate a public discussion with whoever is in charge of this system.

[qeltar]

qeltar, has jagex talked to you about runescoop?

No, and I doubt they will, especially now. :) I'm not big enough for them to really care about, and they're never too high on free-thinkers.

 

Well if we truly are a Runescape fan site wouldn't it make sense to support Jagex by not running competitor ads?

No, it doesn't. The purpose of a game fansite is to support the game's fans, not become an arm of the game developer's marketing department.

 

If Jagex had released this version of the fan site safe list from the beginning no would be complaining. It seems that the only reason why people are angry is because of how Jagex didn't get it right the first time. If the new guidelines for fan sites had been put forth since the start of Jagex's involvement with fan sites no one would have thought twice. This new list isn't a list of safe sites but rather a list of ones that meet Jagex's guidelines and are going to receive benefits for making the effort to.

The core of this system is the same as it was before: if you want to be recognized as a fansite, you have to let Jagex dictate what ads you can serve. Yes, they've added some nice incentives to help offset this demand, but really, nothing has changed in terms of the company's demands.

 

You can polish a turd, but it's still a turd.

 

As for the whole "how easily we're fooled", perhaps it's just that we can't see how going along with their restrictions is hurting us.

That's not what I was referring to. I addressed that comment to the people who seem to have forgotten that Jagex's main goal has been and still is getitng fansites to kowtow to their advertising control demands.

 

I'm inclined to go with the latter option, because even if it is a demand from Jagex, complying with it doesn't have ANY effect on anyones daily routine here at Tip.it, but it may affect Tip.it's funds...

There may not be any direct tangible impact on Tip.it financially -- which I still find very hard to believe, but I don't have any data to prove otherwise -- but saying there is no effect on this site is going too far.

 

I think it would benefit some folks to read up on the prisoner's dilemma. It describes a situation where people's individual best interest is to take a course of action that harms all of the individuals collectively.

 

That is what is happening here. Every individual fansite has an incentive to go along with Jagex's demands, but by doing so, all of the fansites collectively lose out: in terms of ad revenue, in terms of independence, in terms of control over their own sites. And it's worse for small sites, many of whom are barely making anything off ads in the first place.

 

Jagex knows this, and they also know that most of the fansites don't know it.

[tortilliachp]

The prisoner's dilemma, outlines the fact that cooperation is almost impossible either way even with only two players. Thus, there is really no choice in a real situation: it is so statistically improbable for everyone to cooperate for the greater good that it is not an option. And so the dilemma is a false dilemma describing only a theoretical situation, as almost all of game theory, and much of economic theory, because it assumes pefect, accessible information.

 

you can "identify" the cause as much as you like, but the implications are none: there is nothing you can do, and in extention nothing tip.it can do, but get the best deal it can get on its own: other's have already "caved" rendering the collective option dead.

 

does jagex do this consciously, or to help the runescape community as a whole? For me they've certainly removed all gaming ads from their own website. Do i have the information to analyze whether they have suspicious economic motives, or simply want the runescape community to improve? No. do you? no. will we then only be speculating on their motives? yes.

[qeltar]

The prisoner's dilemma is *not* entirely theoretical. There is even a substantial list of real world examples in the link I provided.

 

This situation -- a big corporation exercising power to impose its will on smaller independent entities -- is hardly new in the history of business. And it has a traditional solution: forming unions or cooperatives.

 

I was thinking about starting such an organization, which would simply be a loose association of independent RuneScape fansites, which agree to abide by Jagex's rules, but not to be told how to run their sites by the company otherwise.

 

This would be a fair bit of work to set up, but could be very advantageous to all of the smaller sites that either won't be officially "recognised" by Jagex because they refuse to kiss Jagex's [wagon], or simply because they are too small to be on the company's radar. It would give RS players a second "list" they could refer to in order to find quality fansites, without having to worry about Jagex's censorship over issues that have nothing to do with the game.

 

Removing competitor ads does absolutely nothing to "help the runescape community". Excluding good websites from a fansite list *hurts* the RS community. This imove is transparently self-serving, and past history shows what the real motivation is.

[Omali]

Well if we truly are a Runescape fan site wouldn't it make sense to support Jagex by not running competitor ads?

 

If Jagex truly is a Runescape developer, wouldn't it make sense to support Runescape by not running competitors ads?

[tortilliachp]

The prisoner's dilemma is *not* entirely theoretical. There is even a substantial list of real world examples in the link I provided.

 

This situation -- a big corporation exercising power to impose its will on smaller independent entities -- is hardly new in the history of business. And it has a traditional solution: forming unions or cooperatives.

 

I was thinking about starting such an organization, which would simply be a loose association of independent RuneScape fansites, which agree to abide by Jagex's rules, but not to be told how to run their sites by the company otherwise.

 

This would be a fair bit of work to set up, but could be very advantageous to all of the smaller sites that either won't be officially "recognised" by Jagex because they refuse to kiss Jagex's [wagon], or simply because they are too small to be on the company's radar. It would give RS players a second "list" they could refer to in order to find quality fansites, without having to worry about Jagex's censorship over issues that have nothing to do with the game.

 

Removing competitor ads does absolutely nothing to "help the runescape community". Excluding good websites from a fansite list *hurts* the RS community. This imove is transparently self-serving, and past history shows what the real motivation is.

 

Who claims the prisoners dilemma is theoretical? Unilateral cooperation is theoretical.

 

If a union of fansites existed, those willing to be the Jagex lakei would benefit, and make the cooperation immaterial. Jagex only needs one fansite, and can ensure, by its endorsement and perks, that this is a major contender.

 

Fansites have already agreed to the current situation (see platinum list), making your cooperative immaterial.

 

Good luck setting up a cooperative either way. you won't succeed, as there is so little to gain, and so many fansites to organize. With the largest contenders already platinum, they don't need you for anything, but you need them for all impact. It's simply not going to happen.

 

In theory, it all works fine, in reality, the dilemma itself has outlined how it won't work. It's like trying to get rid of piracy by paying the piracy webpages to stop.

[qeltar]

Who claims the prisoners dilemma is theoretical? Unilateral cooperation is theoretical.

Utter nonsense. I'm amazed you would even suggest such a thing -- the counterexamples are too numerous to even list.

 

Good luck setting up a cooperative either way. you won't succeed, as there is so little to gain, and so many fansites to organize. With the largest contenders already platinum, they don't need you for anything, but you need them for all impact. It's simply not going to happen.

It must suck for you to go through life with such a defeatist, unempowered attitude. The world would suck just as much if everyone shared it.

 

Not only will such a cooperative not fail, but it *can't* fail. The objective wouldn't be to convince sites to stand up to Jagex -- since it's obvious few have the stones to do so -- but rather to make a more inclusive list that makes a priority out of serving fans and not Jagex.