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Tip.it Times - 12th December 2010

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Time for a new release of the: >>>Tip.It Times!<<<

 

I'd like to remind people of the rules pertaining to Times threads:

Rampant flame wars have taken control of virtually every week's times discussion topics. The following guidelines must be followed when posting on this topic. Posts that ignore these guidelines will be removed.

 

1. You are invited and welcome to express like or dislike on articles and a particular author's writing style. It is not acceptable, however, to flame or personally insult an author. Posts that aren't anything but an attack will be removed from the topic.

 

2. Spelling and grammar errors can be reported to Racheya by PMing her and they will be fixed promptly. It is not necessary to post them on the discussion topic.

 

3. Off topic posts that do not discuss the content of that week's articles will be removed. This is not the place to discuss the direction of the times, how much you love or hate the times, etc. Off topic posts will be removed.

 

By keeping within these guidelines, Times discussion topics will mean more for the Panel and Administration than just a place for flame wars. Flame wars do not provide any useful feedback to the Times, which is mainly what we're aiming for with these topics: feedback.

 

This policy is effective as of now, November 17, 2010. Any posts prior to the creation of this policy may or may not be removed according to the new guidelines.

 

When replying please make sure to clarify the article you are replying to! Thanks!

 

If you spot any typos or mistakes in the article then please PM them to me :) We're also running short in Did You Knows, so if you know of any then please PM them to me! :)

 

Enjoy the articles!


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I edit for the [Tip.It Times]. I rarely write in [My Blog]. I am an [Ex-Moderator].

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Often the reason people criticize the articles on here are not due to mistakes in language, but perceived mistakes in thinking. Mistakes in language are understandable, but published mistakes in thinking can be offensive.

 

"The Efficiency Wars" posted in October is pretty much the perfect example of this. People didn't rage at this article for the language usage but for the ideas.

 

Mistakes being presented rudely isn't right, but most of the flaming comes from ideas not language. As a writer you should understand that language mistakes being pointed out is a very positive thing as it is the best way for you to improve your writing, even if they are rude.


PM me in game anytime

 

It's a lot easier then that for an idiot to sound smart on the internet.

 

That's exactly what you're doing right now... just saying.

 

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More often than not, people forget that, as human beings, we need some margin of error.

 

 

Inb4effciencytrolls.

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First article,

 

I am going to disagree with the author. Why is having puzzles, a few fights, and a big boss battle a "boring template?" What else is there? There are only so many things you can do in runescape when it comes to mechanics. Fight, talk, use skills, solve puzzles, ...others? The way those are presented are the way quests have variety. Jagex has done a great job making these quests. So what if there's puzzles fights and a boss?

 

Second article, I like it, I see it all the time, bystanaders complaining. For example, my school is doing a talent show sometime in the near future. I heard a few kids talking about how one of the bands that is going to play "sucks" or something. To me, you need to put up or shut up. I didn't see any of those mockers signing up to do their own "awesome" performance.

 

Third article, I like it, but I'm lost, too many charecters and names, I don't know what's going on. I suppose I could just read the whole story through at once though. Keep up the good work!


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War is not about who's right, it's about who's left

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More often than not, people forget that, as human beings, we need some margin of error.

 

 

Inb4effciencytrolls.

 

ERROR? UNACCEPTABLE :P

 

Truthfully, people should realize that from all efficiency calculations, you should subtract about 2-5% (if you are focused, depending on the activity) or even more (if you tend to daze off). This accounts (roughly) for any human error of xp rates. This is assuming that the base xp rate you're looking at doesn't already include human error.

 

I really liked the quests article. Thankfully though, Jagex provides us enough smoke and mirrors during quests via storylines, different styles of puzzles, and rewards (not to mention scenary) that I usually don't even notice the framework. Although if you really think about it, doesn't everything have some sort of framework? If Jagex has found one that consistently produces fun, enjoyable quests, why not? Yes, they should change it up a bit, and I agree more than they have been, but oftentimes it's nice to have a frame to use.

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Do No Evil has to be my favourite of the most recent quests Jagex has released. For some reason it felt more like a classic Jagex quest than some of the more puzzle orientated ones Wingless mentioned, and it might just be me being nostalgic but I prefer the former.

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Third article, I like it, but I'm lost, too many charecters and names, I don't know what's going on. I suppose I could just read the whole story through at once though. Keep up the good work!

Admittedly, for some of the characters I did not leave much room for some actual character building... But yeah; if you just dropped into the story its confusing as hell, especially considering we left Anders and Pieter in Keldagrim at the start of the 2nd chapter...

 

If you want, I could give a brief overview of all the charachters (even though over half of them are taken right out of the game without any alteration), just to make it easier...

 

I do intend to make up for most of this in the last part of the story; the epilogue :)


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Loving the Fremennik fictional!

 

This ^. over 9,000 times This ^


I don't know which mod did this. I don't know why they did it. If they're looking for money, I can tell them I don't have any as I'm a student. But what I do have are a very particular set of skills; skills I have acquired over 4 years of RuneScape. Skills that I have worked hard for and people like them can't take them away. If they give me my particles back now, that'll be the end of it. I will not look for them, I will not pursue them. But if they don't, I will look for them, I will find them, and they won't like what'll happen

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Disagree with the first article. Cool puzzles/fights are what make quests fun, I just wish they were a little harder (the fights that is). If you don't use guides, most quests are still very challenging regardless (EWIII and MEP II both took me nearly an entire Sunday).


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I piety the fool.

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On the Déjà Vu article, I agree that quests are becoming repetitive, but is that not a consequence of having an increasing amount of quests? I mean, there are only so many possibilities you can put into a quest without displeasing half of the RuneScape questers community. Make it as easy as 'Collect X' and you'll be flamed because it's too easy. Put in more hard puzzles players dislike the quest because of the hard puzzles. Put in fights leading to hard boss monsters, you get flamed for being too combat based or too simple in structure. And now this article is there, voicing the questing community's displeasure at quests who mix all of these aspects into quests with different dimensions of difficulty. That does not leave them with many options left now does it?

 

I think the way they build up their quests is the only way possible, really. Easy/Easier quests ecompass just one of three difficulty dimensions, harder quests encompass two or three dimensions with varying difficulty, and the master quests are built up out of all three dimensions as well as containing at least the highest level of one of three dimensions of difficulty. I do not see another way to build up quest difficulty.

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On the Déjà Vu article, I agree that quests are becoming repetitive, but is that not a consequence of having an increasing amount of quests? I mean, there are only so many possibilities you can put into a quest without displeasing half of the RuneScape questers community. Make it as easy as 'Collect X' and you'll be flamed because it's too easy. Put in more hard puzzles players dislike the quest because of the hard puzzles. Put in fights leading to hard boss monsters, you get flamed for being too combat based or too simple in structure. And now this article is there, voicing the questing community's displeasure at quests who mix all of these aspects into quests with different dimensions of difficulty. That does not leave them with many options left now does it?

 

I think the way they build up their quests is the only way possible, really. Easy/Easier quests ecompass just one of three difficulty dimensions, harder quests encompass two or three dimensions with varying difficulty, and the master quests are built up out of all three dimensions as well as containing at least the highest level of one of three dimensions of difficulty. I do not see another way to build up quest difficulty.

 

 

This is what I was trying to say earlier, but he articulated it much better.

 

While Guthix Sleeps was probably my favorite quest so far

although, honestly, I didn't remember the fights being THAT big of a deal (like Nomad, that jerk...)


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War is not about who's right, it's about who's left

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I partially agree with the first article (those articles are written from 'a certain point of view').

 

It is indeed boring to have a same template to be repeated over and over again, but the truth is, if we get a quest that differentiates from the regular form of puzzle, fight and boss, for example One Small Favour, we moan that it is too tedious.

 

What would be fun is the possibility that was implemented in the Void Knight series: the ability to choose your actions, for example, fight an enemy or puzzle your way through, or performing a favour for someone who will then help you with a specific part of the quest.

 

What bothers me too is that quests labeled Master or Grandmaster are often shorter than a (Grand-)Master should be, and that people rant about it. What they don't think about is that you also have to complete previous quests. A good example is quests linked to the Elves: Catapult Construction was a Master (if I remember correctly) but only because of Regicide. If Regicide was removed from the equation it would have become a Novice most likely.

 

Reply on Diomedus:

 

I agree, a quest like While Guthix Sleeps is one of the top 5 quests ever made. A combination of combat, puzzles, fetching and skilling, with various degrees of difficulty.


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[hide]Mining level 99 achieved November 2010

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Has Wingless even completed Do No Evil? There aren't a series of small fights followed by a boss fight, there are a series of puzzles and then 3 boss fights all grouped together at the end. I have no idea where Wingless is getting his/her information from, but it's incorrect. <_<


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Déjà vu:

I get that when things fall into a relatively constant pattern, it becomes very annoying. But Quests are puzzles and combat. Most Quests will be structured around puzzles and combat, puzzles and combat... One Small Favour and Elemental Workshop 3 were definite breaks from the norm, but could you imagine every Quest, or even most Quests being as long and annoying as One Small Favour? I don't know about you, but four and a half hours and several Ibuprofen is not my perfect idea of a Quest. I love Questing, and I hope to get the Questing Cape before any 99 Cape, so when JaGeX breaks up the pattern, I'm happy to hear about it, but Questing is always going to be puzzles and combat, rarely anything different.

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On the first article: I understand that it's a standard framework and it can get quite predictable, but that's because it just basically follows the rules of Dramatic Structure. I mean, put the boss fight at the beginning, the puzzles in the middle, and all the talking at the end and usually the payout seems quite minimal (As our character expressed in One Small Favor, which never seemed to pay off). I really don't mind the structure; I quest for the characters and the story and since they're focusing on those more with recent quests I have nothing to complain about.


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Regarding the first article, I have to ask: Does it really matter that they have similar structure? There aren't many alternative structures that are engaging, and those that are only work because of novelty. One Small Favour was a clever quest, but you wouldn't want another one that does the same thing.

 

 

Do No Evil, even if it was essentially talking, puzzles, the mother of all fetches, puzzles, boss, boss, boss, was a fine quest. It's down to the characters, the myths and legends, the scenery, and all of the other wonderful things that RS quests provide.


~ W ~

 

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I enjoyed all the readings, although I do disagree with the first one. As in, I really like Runescape's quests, they are a heck of a lot better then most of the other quests I have done in stuff like Guild Wars and the like.


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I really don't see why writers don't welcome criticism. I know that in my college level writing class I ask for multiple people to give me feedback and write up my paper. People either say it sucks or it needs to be improved on, no hurt feelings considering they make my writing better and give me a direction to go in.

 

Why take offence to criticism if there are obviously mistakes? Writing a complete article about the matter really doesn't make sense to me, telling the community to write an article themselves then latter saying they are riddled with just as many mistakes sounds very hypocritical. The retort to this will be that people attacked the writers, maybe a select few, but I also saw a lot of good feedback that was ignored.


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Article #1:

 

Meh, I don't quest too much, so the type of quests doesn't really bother me. I mean, I think its pretty hard to have quests that are not similar to other previous quests. I mean, what else is there to do for a quest? Maybe implement real time into the quest? Like:

 

"Here, you are now in charge of 10 players from RSOF rants. You need to get them to provide certain materials at certain times for the next month, and you have to compile and present weekly status reports every Thursday at 3pm GMT your superior, who also has 10 people working for him. Oh, and if your orders get canceled, you still have to have the new order by the date it is needed."

 

How's that for a quest objective? :P

 

 

Article #2:

 

I liked it. Props for putting something about drinking HCl in there, I thought that was funny.

 

 

Fictional:

 

Not really fond of cliff hangers, so I usually read them after a few weeks, when I can read them all at once.


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Hey, been reading all 5 of the fremmy storyline now, im enjoying it very much =] gives a whole different perspective on a certain area of the game. Really hooked on the story :D!


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I really don't see why writers don't welcome criticism. I know that in my college level writing class I ask for multiple people to give me feedback and write up my paper. People either say it sucks or it needs to be improved on, no hurt feelings considering they make my writing better and give me a direction to go in.

 

Why take offence to criticism if there are obviously mistakes? Writing a complete article about the matter really doesn't make sense to me, telling the community to write an article themselves then latter saying they are riddled with just as many mistakes sounds very hypocritical. The retort to this will be that people attacked the writers, maybe a select few, but I also saw a lot of good feedback that was ignored.

My problem was the fact that people were obsessed with pointing out the mistakes rather than look at the articles, or whatever the performance was, as a whole. Sure details play a part in evaluations, but it shouldn't constitute the whole thing either. That's what gets me riled up sometimes. The Times doesn't "hire" writers just for people to grab and edit their articles. The point of the Times is to share some various insight the writers from the community may have, or have some more literary art awareness. We've done our best and hope our points get across. And while our ideas may not be completely clear, surely the writing is understandable enough to formulate your own ideas on what we did write, not how terrible our English is (unless it's something like "OMFG LOLOLOLOLOL DIS WUZ TEH BEST DEY OF MAH LIAFE!!!!" There I can forgive.). I appreciate the edits. What I don't appreciate is when people treat my articles like something they can use to cast against me because my English isn't up to their standards or completely forget about what the article is about because they're so deeply buried in the grammar and spell checks. The same thing applies with the in-game scenario. I'm not a perfect player moderator who knows the fine-print text on the RuneScape website on game play and rules, but I can still do my "job" to the standard, if not beyond, Jagex has set. Yet because of the shiny crown, people automatically assume that I'm supposed to be Miss Suck-Up-to-Jagex/Know-All-the-Rules/Pro-Gamer. <_< As soon as I say I don't know or object, I get flamed. :roll:

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Interesting articles this week, although I tend to partly disagree.

 

First article: First things first - I have to agree with alticultural. The description of the framework of Do No Evil is wrong. Especially interesting is that what he failed to mention is that there were three bosses - which is already a deviation of the standard layout.

 

Also - of course the quest layout gets a *bit* repetetive. But on the other hand - I think Jagex does a very good job of fighting that with interesting storylines, good puzzles and challenging bosses. And there is only so much you can do. Wingless left the whole notion of what could be changed to the readers - which I think is because he didn't have any special ideas. I don't blame him for that - I don't have them either. But this is exactly the point which speaks against his article - there is only so much you can do about it.

 

 

Second article: What I do not like to hear when I criticize somebody is "Can you do it better?" Tbh, that is BS. I am not a good musician, but I am able to judge if a band plays good or not(technically seen) I can point out flaws in articles even if I couldn't do it better myself.

 

I -partly- agree with you. There is too much emphasis on the article's style in contrast to the content when discussing the tip.it times. And it also is often presented too rudely.

 

But, I have to say it again - the question is not "Can/could you do it better?". It is NOT. The questions are: 1. "is it relevant" and 2."can you offer something to improve it"

 

 

 

 

 

The fictional really has me now - although I have to agree with others that I'm slowly getting character problems. There's not really much you can do there stormrage - it's simply because I'm reading it always one week apart. I will probably wait until it's finished and read it in one piece then =)

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Forsakenmage: +1

 

There's a Dutch sayoing about someone who can no longer see the forest because of all the trees... People who instead of just point out the mistakes and post them (HA, not even PM them like they're supposed to) I can not accept, but still tolerate... But if you instead completely focus on the mistakes made rather than the message we as fan-fiction and fan-non-fiction writers try to bring across, then there's something wrong with you...

 

Those people display one symptom of a troll, which is that they think the world hates them and therefor they must hate the world back... We've seen it in past Times' threads get WAY out of hand...

 

I know not everyone is like that... Some people genuinly try to improve my writing and I appreciate it more than they'll understand... But one word, one hint of arrogance in your criticism and it becomes very easy to dismiss that criticism, even if it was written with the best intentions... Why is this?

Simple... We write because we like it, and because we think others like it too... But if there is this "Pff, you suck!" vibe coming off of your comment, than do not expect a writer to listen to you, or even feel like writing another article for you ro burn down...

 

I can take criticism easily if its justified or even brutalliy harsh, as long as it has suggestions on how to improve... Simply pointing out mistakes without knowing how to do it better yourself (and there are many people liek this)is a gray area, so all I can ask there is that you word yourself carefully...

 

Jonananananananananas:

I know what you mean, and I know where this problem is... When writing like this, you got to create an image of these people in the readers' minds... One way to do that is with nicknames and/or references to his or her past... Since more than half of the characters are directly from the game, it's hard to do this while trying to tell your own story...

 

Rest asured I will try to make up for this in the next and final chatper... And even if I fail there, the epilogue should make everything clear... (yes, 2 more issues to come)


Former Leader of The Tal Shiar Alliance - An Original Tip.it Clan
Member of the Wilderness Guardians and Founder of the Silent Guardians
Founder of The Conclave - A Tip.it Clan institution
Tip.it Times author (click for all my articles) - When I use the wrong reasons to make the right statement, argue the reason, not the statement.
MSSW4 General - Did we kick your ass too?




Check us out!
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==> No seriously, if you like FREE GP, XP and Dung tokens, as well as Community, Opportunity and above all FUN... <==
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