TIF is bit over-moderated

[obfuscator]

So you're telling me that you look in every single board and sub-board everyday and see every single post every user makes? If that's true, I applaud you.

 

Otherwise; it's impossible to know. Obviously you can do some digging, but you can't really know every single post every single user makes.

 

Of course not. And just as we don't, neither do the users.

 

We have a general idea of someone's posting style and contribution, just as you do.

[Blyaunte]

Is TIF a bit over-moderated?

 

Well ... "a bit over-moderated" is like being "a bit pregnant". It's not a one thing or the other. It is or it isn't.

 

Fact is, the site is, plainly, "over-moderated". End of story. You cannot swing a dead cat in here without six mods/admins jumping into the discussion and causing a problem.

 

THIS thread is a perfect example of it. It starts as a rant, gets moved by an Admin, and then the Admins/Mods trample all over it.

 

... and then the Mods/Admins attempt to say that the site isn't over-moderated ... :rolleyes:

 

You know, this situation would be hilarious if it wasn't so tragically stupid ...

[obfuscator]

How do you suggest we improve? Shall we cease enforcing the rules every person (staff included) agree to follow when they sign up for the forums?

[Racheya]

Is TIF a bit over-moderated?

 

Well ... "a bit over-moderated" is like being "a bit pregnant". It's not a one thing or the other. It is or it isn't.

 

Fact is, the site is, plainly, "over-moderated". End of story. You cannot swing a dead cat in here without six mods/admins jumping into the discussion and causing a problem.

 

THIS thread is a perfect example of it. It starts as a rant, gets moved by an Admin, and then the Admins/Mods trample all over it.

 

... and then the Mods/Admins attempt to say that the site isn't over-moderated ... :rolleyes:

 

You know, this situation would be hilarious if it wasn't so tragically stupid ...

The thread was moved into the correct forum and made open to wider discussion rather than just letting it be a rant. Unless you dislike that there's a wider discussion, then there's no problem with the move.

 

Mods and admins are answering proposals, points and questions raised by users. There's no point in having a discussion on moderation without moderators involved in it. The discussion is on our policies so we'd be completely stupid to just ignore the thread. If we didn't post you'd be complaining about that too.

[Blyaunte]

How do you suggest we improve? Shall we cease enforcing the rules every person (staff included) agree to follow when they sign up for the forums?

 

LOL -- ^THIS^ is a perfect example of over-moderation. You offer with one hand and slap with the other.

 

Is this one of the attributes that's specifically sought after in mods and admins on this forum? :rolleyes:

[das]

I think it's a horrible idea for the community at large to discuss temporary bans. I obviously don't say that as staff either. Allow me to elaborate as an educated user that is familiar with the ban process in entirety.

 

Temp bans can be quick in terms of length - 3 or 5 days often isn't enough time for a consensus to be reached - one could be done hastily, but the actual post history is reviewed and not just the bad stuff, and that takes time - lots of time, more time than I wanted to spare - I put in an average of 2-4 hours of research per appeal - Considering people took the time to counter any arguements I had (either for keeping the ban or unbanning) with other post examples - pretty sure I wasn't alone in how much time I spent researching . The majority of temp ban's are fairly cut and dry and actually boring. there wouldn't be much to discuss for a vast majority of them. Then some appeals could be interesting - but people choose to write crap like "[bleep] you guys, I didn't deserve it becaue i got 9k posts or something yada yada yada " - and thats a quick no. banned people put surprisingly little effort into appeals here

 

For Perm Ban's - I think this idea could have merit actually but the problem is most offensive posts are whisked away to a private forum as soon as they occur and the majority of the public never sees them giving the user thats banned a better reputation then they deserve with their posting style. I'd argue the users only see the "Good side" of the users and would just as biased as those who they accuse of being biased due to only seeing the "bad side of them."

 

I'd suggest instead perhaps having a community watch - maybe giving 5 or 10 users a chance to contribute to the ban appeals monthly and see how it's done.

 

 

I do think Tip.it is overmoderated, I also think almost every single collectible forum I visit is (Multiple ones for sports cards, Action figures and autographs). The irony is - unless we're talking about /b/ - almost any forum will have moderation complaints. it's unavoidable. I mean, one of the most lax forums I use (where I have had an oversized avatar by 2 MB for a year lax) - Has had accusations of biased bans and crap. So it's everywhere

 

I think the difference is Tip.it seems to genuinely care about making the board a better place overall for it's users. I don't think anyone's perfect, and certainly I could issue a laundry list of improvements for tip.it, but I think the heart of the staff is in the right place. And Change isn't going to happen if both sides (users as much as staff) are hellbent on calling each other stupid and attacking everything each other says.

 

~Das

[obfuscator]

How do you suggest we improve? Shall we cease enforcing the rules every person (staff included) agree to follow when they sign up for the forums?

 

LOL -- ^THIS^ is a perfect example of over-moderation. You offer with one hand and slap with the other.

 

Is this one of the attributes that's specifically sought after in mods and admins on this forum? :rolleyes:

Uhhh what?

 

I have no idea what you're trying to say.

[Blyaunte]

Is TIF a bit over-moderated?

 

Well ... "a bit over-moderated" is like being "a bit pregnant". It's not a one thing or the other. It is or it isn't.

 

Fact is, the site is, plainly, "over-moderated". End of story. You cannot swing a dead cat in here without six mods/admins jumping into the discussion and causing a problem.

 

THIS thread is a perfect example of it. It starts as a rant, gets moved by an Admin, and then the Admins/Mods trample all over it.

 

... and then the Mods/Admins attempt to say that the site isn't over-moderated ... :rolleyes:

 

You know, this situation would be hilarious if it wasn't so tragically stupid ...

The thread was moved into the correct forum and made open to wider discussion rather than just letting it be a rant. Unless you dislike that there's a wider discussion, then there's no problem with the move.

 

Mods and admins are answering proposals, points and questions raised by users. There's no point in having a discussion on moderation without moderators involved in it. The discussion is on our policies so we'd be completely stupid to just ignore the thread. If we didn't post you'd be complaining about that too.

 

... and so the absurdity that a commentary about over-moderation, on a thread that is being over-moderated by moderators, doesn't seem, well, poignant to you or anyone else? :unsure:

[Blyaunte]

How do you suggest we improve? Shall we cease enforcing the rules every person (staff included) agree to follow when they sign up for the forums?

 

LOL -- ^THIS^ is a perfect example of over-moderation. You offer with one hand and slap with the other.

 

Is this one of the attributes that's specifically sought after in mods and admins on this forum? :rolleyes:

Uhhh what?

 

I have no idea what you're trying to say.

 

Why couldn't you ask the former question without interjecting the latter? Why do you feel compelled to make such remarks?

[obfuscator]

How do you suggest we improve? Shall we cease enforcing the rules every person (staff included) agree to follow when they sign up for the forums?

 

LOL -- ^THIS^ is a perfect example of over-moderation. You offer with one hand and slap with the other.

 

Is this one of the attributes that's specifically sought after in mods and admins on this forum? :rolleyes:

Uhhh what?

 

I have no idea what you're trying to say.

 

Why couldn't you ask the former question without interjecting the latter? Why do you feel compelled to make such remarks?

 

Because once again, you're criticizing without making any viable suggestions.

[PereGrin]

Moderator Record on this thread

 

Page 1 - 7 Mods

Page 2 - 7 Mod, 2 Event

Page 3 - 5 Mod

Page 4 - 8 Mod

Page 5 - 2 Mod

Page 6 - 1 Mod, 2 Crew

Page 7 - 4 Mod, 1 Crew

Page 8 - 5 Mod, 1 Crew

Page 9 - 5 Mod, 1 Crew

Page 10 - 4 Mod, 3 Crew

Page 11 - 4 Mod, 5 Crew

Pgae 12 - 5 Mod

Page 13 - 5 Mod, 2 Event

Page 14 - 7 Mod

Page 15 - 8 Mod, 1 Crew

Page 16 - 5 Mod

 

Totals: 82 Mod*, 4 Event, 12 Crew

*For simplicities sake, all accounts with moderator powers (Admins and Mods) were counted as Mods.

 

Notables:

 

Page 2 - 3 Mod posts in a row (Danq, Tripsis, Hobgoblin)

Page 3 - 3 in a row again (y_guy, Tripsis, Danq)

Page 9 - Double post by Darkdude98

Page 10 - Tripsis breaks Darkdude98's 4 page, 16 post streak of being the only Mod. These 4 pages were accomplished in 1 hour, 51 minutes.

Page 10 - 3 in a row (Darkdude, Tripsis, Darkdude)

Page 12 to 13 - 3 in a row (Rainy, Danq, Tripsis)

Page 14 - 3 in a row (Tripsis, Y_guy, jimmy_jim)

 

Posts by Das, Laikrob, and others I may have missed were not counted as Mods because they no longer possess colored names.

 

26.36% of all posts on this thread have been made by an Administrator or Moderator.

[obfuscator]

I'd say 26% of the posts on a thread discussing moderation being moderators makes sense. The mods hardly outnumber users on this topic....

 

If that number was much lower, the complaints would be that the concerns of the users are being ignored.

 

Here are some more statistics for you. There have been a total of six mod actions (posts removed, posts edited) on this topic. That is moderation. Just because a moderator posts doesn't mean they're moderating.

[Racheya]

Exactly. Every post a moderator makes is NOT MODERATION. Moderation is removing a post, warning a user, making an in-thread warning, banning... posting opinions is not moderation and if you equate over-moderation to moderators posting then you've made some mistake.

[das]

Exactly. Every post a moderator makes is NOT MODERATION. Moderation is removing a post, warning a user, making an in-thread warning, banning... posting opinions is not moderation and if you equate over-moderation to moderators posting then you've made some mistake.

Perspective.

 

I've always maintained the viewpoint that every post a moderator or administrator makes IS in essence Moderation. You're posting on behalf of the site you work for and represent and thus are moderating without using your tools. A moderator is a leader, a user of influence who has tools to help guide and lead discussion. Locking/Warning are strictly tools a moderator has to make the boards smoother, not what actually makes you a moderator. You can moderate a thread often without ever having to use a tool

[Racheya]

Exactly. Every post a moderator makes is NOT MODERATION. Moderation is removing a post, warning a user, making an in-thread warning, banning... posting opinions is not moderation and if you equate over-moderation to moderators posting then you've made some mistake.

Perspective.

 

I've always maintained the viewpoint that every post a moderator or administrator makes IS in essence Moderation. You're posting on behalf of the site you work for and represent and thus are moderating without using your tools. A moderator is a leader, a user of influence who has tools to help guide and lead discussion. Locking/Warning are strictly tools a moderator has to make the boards smoother, not what actually makes you a moderator. You can moderate a thread often without ever having to use a tool

Maybe in some small cases that's true but not every moderator is a wizard with words. We can't magically moderate a topic without proper procedures and a in thread like this, where we're posting opinions and engaging in discussion, it's not moderation. One of the important things staff are expected of is to be users first and not let their opinions be compromised by their position. If every post is moderation then I fail to see how we can uphold that standard.

[Mirror]

Exactly. Every post a moderator makes is NOT MODERATION. Moderation is removing a post, warning a user, making an in-thread warning, banning... posting opinions is not moderation and if you equate over-moderation to moderators posting then you've made some mistake.

Perspective.

 

I've always maintained the viewpoint that every post a moderator or administrator makes IS in essence Moderation. You're posting on behalf of the site you work for and represent and thus are moderating without using your tools. A moderator is a leader, a user of influence who has tools to help guide and lead discussion. Locking/Warning are strictly tools a moderator has to make the boards smoother, not what actually makes you a moderator. You can moderate a thread often without ever having to use a tool

Maybe in some small cases that's true but not every moderator is a wizard with words. We can't magically moderate a topic without proper procedures and a in thread like this, where we're posting opinions and engaging in discussion, it's not moderation. One of the important things staff are expected of is to be users first and not let their opinions be compromised by their position. If every post is moderation then I fail to see how we can uphold that standard.

You see that avatar that says Super Moderator? Yeah, that won't go away until you're promoted/demoted. And with that and all the other symbols that highlight that you are a moderator here on the forums, you can not escape the presence that you hold or any of us moderators have when we are using the forums. That is what Das was talking about. Just being here is construed as moderation. The artifacts bring a message, the non verbal side of moderation to use a term.

 

You are correct when saying staff are expected to be users first which is definitely true, and I know where you are coming when you ask the question that your posts of "moderation" contradict that statement. That can be true, but remember, you are a user, we all are. It's just the ideas and perceptions that come from the non verbal side of things which can't be wiped away. An admin is perceived in one way, crew in another, TET has it's own perceptions, as well as different demographics of users across the board here. You can't change that persay but you as well as everyone else, needs to understand, but that is an uphill battle that I don't think will ever be "won".

 

So in the mean time, I'm going to stop rambling and I just added a +1 count to the moderation here in this topic. ;)

[tripsis]

I don't really think it's fair to say that moderators and admins posting a lot in this topic is bad :( In fact, I think it's a very good thing. A big complaint right now seems to be a lack of transparency. One way or another, we're going to talk about the ideas and issues presented in this thread. Either we don't post here and talk amongst ourselves in private instead, which would probably result in people feeling ignored. Or we post here and respond to your guys' ideas. We talk with you, give our opinions on your ideas, and communicate publicly. I'd think the latter would be more preferred.

 

Just because a staff member posts something doesn't mean we're jumping down your throats or trying to gang up on you. We're trying to communicate with you and give our opinions. Sometimes different staff members have different opinions or different things to add to the conversation, which is why more than one may post.

[das]

Mirrorforced summed up my reply to racheya almost perfectly.

 

I do think the staff needs more transparency with the users, but will concede, I have no clue how to begin to start it in a manner that isn't a slippery slope

[Blyaunte]

How do you suggest we improve? Shall we cease enforcing the rules every person (staff included) agree to follow when they sign up for the forums?

 

LOL -- ^THIS^ is a perfect example of over-moderation. You offer with one hand and slap with the other.

 

Is this one of the attributes that's specifically sought after in mods and admins on this forum? :rolleyes:

Uhhh what?

 

I have no idea what you're trying to say.

 

Why couldn't you ask the former question without interjecting the latter? Why do you feel compelled to make such remarks?

 

Because once again, you're criticizing without making any viable suggestions.

 

 

And your sarcastic second comment is going to compel me to offer viable suggestions, how?

[Lose No Hope]

Both of you have gotten off point.

 

I'd like to see consistency when it comes to moderating. Also, when special rules are made for certain forum boards, those should be enforced on that board, not just ignored.

[Rainy_Day]

How do you suggest we improve? Shall we cease enforcing the rules every person (staff included) agree to follow when they sign up for the forums?

 

LOL -- ^THIS^ is a perfect example of over-moderation. You offer with one hand and slap with the other.

 

Is this one of the attributes that's specifically sought after in mods and admins on this forum? :rolleyes:

Uhhh what?

 

I have no idea what you're trying to say.

 

Why couldn't you ask the former question without interjecting the latter? Why do you feel compelled to make such remarks?

 

Because once again, you're criticizing without making any viable suggestions.

 

 

And your sarcastic second comment is going to compel me to offer viable suggestions, how?

And your posts provide decent feedback in this topic how? So far you've claimed moving a topic and admins/mods replying to it is evidence that tip.it is "over moderated".

 

[obfuscator]

Both of you have gotten off point.

 

I'd like to see consistency when it comes to moderating. Also, when special rules are made for certain forum boards, those should be enforced on that board, not just ignored.

Is there a specific issue you're thinking of?

[Lose No Hope]

I don't think it's something to discuss publicly.

[The Observer]

If you're referring to private boards, most of them have very relaxed moderation, depending on what the people who run it want. Most of the time this means they don't get moderated unless the people assigned to it ask.

[Lose No Hope]

Private boards?