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TIF is bit over-moderated


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One thing the staff needs to really be careful about is how they come across to others.

 

Six months ago, there was a row between one of my friends who was a moderator (not naming names) and other members of the staff, and I got involved in it because I believed that this guy was being mistreated. Well, some admins and several other users got involved, and there were many heated arguments. After a while, I tried to make peace with some of the admins involved, and their response seemed dripping with sarcasm and rude. Most of the admins spammed the PM thread and basically ignored my message, and only one admin even bothered to properly respond. How did this make me feel? It pissed me off, and that's one of the reasons why I started a trolling spree.

Just reread that PM discussion, and I have to correct you: Two admins (the ones who had stated an interest in the forum) actively participated and posted properly, and another replied aswell - in a positive manner.

Using this to justify breaking the rules wouldn't hold up in court, that's all I'm saying. :)

 

I was referring more to Das's comment:

 

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Whether or not he meant anything by it, I'm just saying that at that particular time, I felt like some of the admins ignored my message and chose to respond with something totally irrelevant as a sign of disrespect. It doesn't matter if that was the real intention or not. What matters is that it's very difficult to know the meaning of someone's message at times (this is the Internet after all), and it can be easy for the staff to offend users. This is basically what Rainy_Day told me in the email I received after being banned for the second time in a month in regards to a post I made. It can be difficult to interpret someone's message, and the chance of someone getting offended can be relatively high.

 

Also, I'm not trying to justify what I did to break the rules. Yes, it was intentional. I did my damnest to see how far I could have gone before getting banned (which as pretty far in my opinion). I deserved what I got. I've already discussed this in private with an admin of this website through an instant messaging program. I didn't send an appeal giving a formal apology because I didn't have time for it due to Uni.

 

I have no knowledge of this particular situation whatsoever - but admins are people too. If you're going to intentionally troll and give the admins lots of work to do, I emphasise intentionally, then they're not going to be particularly fond of you are they?

RIP TET

 

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The worst part about these forums is when "moderators" panic and delete tons of posts or tons of text.

 

I can understand when you need to delete a post if it contains something pornographic or obscene, which should not be seen by minors. But I have had plenty of my posts deleted just because I shared too edgy of an opinion or flamed a bit too much. I think for these situations, the moderators should actually...erm...MODERATE the discussion. Not hide the discussion and pretend like nothing bad is going on. This just leaves a bunch of people angry instead of actually settling the situation.

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The worst part about these forums is when "moderators" panic and delete tons of posts or tons of text.

 

I can understand when you need to delete a post if it contains something pornographic or obscene, which should not be seen by minors. But I have had plenty of my posts deleted just because I shared too edgy of an opinion or flamed a bit too much. I think for these situations, the moderators should actually...erm...MODERATE the discussion. Not hide the discussion and pretend like nothing bad is going on. This just leaves a bunch of people angry instead of actually settling the situation.

 

Then where would the proof be of what happened?

 

And posts are hidden for privacy of the users. If someone was warned for committing an offence it pretty much advertises it on the post.

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The worst part about these forums is when "moderators" panic and delete tons of posts or tons of text.

 

I can understand when you need to delete a post if it contains something pornographic or obscene, which should not be seen by minors. But I have had plenty of my posts deleted just because I shared too edgy of an opinion or flamed a bit too much. I think for these situations, the moderators should actually...erm...MODERATE the discussion. Not hide the discussion and pretend like nothing bad is going on. This just leaves a bunch of people angry instead of actually settling the situation.

 

Then where would the proof be of what happened?

 

And posts are hidden for privacy of the users. If someone was warned for committing an offence it pretty much advertises it on the post.

 

Most of the time the posts are moved to a private area of the forum that the staff uses called the ZAP boards to be used as evidence. The mods discuss what action should be used.

 

If you pay attention to your post count when your posts are "removed," you'll usually notice that it remains the same. This means that your post was moved to the ZAP boards.

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The worst part about these forums is when "moderators" panic and delete tons of posts or tons of text.

 

I can understand when you need to delete a post if it contains something pornographic or obscene, which should not be seen by minors. But I have had plenty of my posts deleted just because I shared too edgy of an opinion or flamed a bit too much. I think for these situations, the moderators should actually...erm...MODERATE the discussion. Not hide the discussion and pretend like nothing bad is going on. This just leaves a bunch of people angry instead of actually settling the situation.

 

Then where would the proof be of what happened?

 

And posts are hidden for privacy of the users. If someone was warned for committing an offence it pretty much advertises it on the post.

 

Most of the time the posts are moved to a private area of the forum that the staff uses called the ZAP boards to be used as evidence. The mods discuss what action should be used.

 

If you pay attention to your post count when your posts are "removed," you'll usually notice that it remains the same. This means that your post was moved to the ZAP boards.

 

I don't even think we have the ability to fully delete posts, at least not without going through the ACP which only super moderators and admins can. If a post is rule breaking, it will usually be removed whether it is swearing, pornography or personal attacks. Flaming and arguments are also removed due to them cluttering up a thread and often leading to people quoting them after a moderator has intervened.

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I dunno why I'm posting again, but I am. I recall having written a particularly inflammatory post about (I think) the thing Obama spent a bunch of money on (ARRA was it? American Recovery and Reinvestment Act, yeah that's it) because I was very angry about it. I believe I did actually swear in that post; I went to great lengths to back up my side, but looking back I know it was a bad post and it was just waiting to be deleted/hidden. Even though that's been my only 'run-in with the law' I think there are times when you have to realize that yes, what you said wasn't helpful in any way and was probably a little extreme; so don't expect it to be there later. If you make a habit of this, in my opinion you're just waiting for a response; getting banned is that response, unfortunately.

 

I hate to sound like a broken record, but I think it's partially the users' fault for not feeling the moderators do their jobs properly. If you were a mod, how do you think your life would be on a daily basis?

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What I'm hearing from the banned is that the bans were impulsive and based on personal grudges. Considering that the bans were reversed (meaning they were unjust), and that they probably wouldn't have been reversed if it wasn't for this whole affair, I think we can safely say that the system is seriously dysfunctional.

I was relatively sure my ban would be reversed as soon as i got it, so i don't think it mattered what happened later(it did for other people), however, i feel the system failed me in that it took 2 days to reverse the ban. If it would have taken atleast 1 day to discuss the ban it would have never happened.

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I don't even think we have the ability to fully delete posts, at least not without going through the ACP which only super moderators and admins can. If a post is rule breaking, it will usually be removed whether it is swearing, pornography or personal attacks. Flaming and arguments are also removed due to them cluttering up a thread and often leading to people quoting them after a moderator has intervened.

 

I still don't understand the logic. If two individuals are angry at each other, how is whisking the posts away to an invisible forum going to help resolve the issue? Then you follow up with a PM to the individual saying "Hayyy...stop that"

 

It's just not really moderation. Its just punishment. Like I said, if there is something inappropriate to hide from the public sight, I understand. But why do arguments between people need to be hidden?

 

I mean imagine you are at work, exchanging rude emails with a colleague that you aren't seeing eye-to-eye with. Should the supervisor just delete your emails and say "Stop fighting" or should he help resolve the issue?

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I still don't understand the logic. If two individuals are angry at each other, how is whisking the posts away to an invisible forum going to help resolve the issue? Then you follow up with a PM to the individual saying "Hayyy...stop that"

We also do a lot of in-thread moderating but in most cases, if the posts aren't removed and a moderator just comes in asking people to stop, people will continue the discussion anyway because the posts are still there, taunting them to reply. This is particularly true if it's a flame war and people are insulting each other or jumping down their throats. But by removing the posts, people don't feel inclined to respond to each other anymore since the posts are no longer there.

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I mean imagine you are at work, exchanging rude emails with a colleague that you aren't seeing eye-to-eye with. Should the supervisor just delete your emails and say "Stop fighting" or should he help resolve the issue?

It's not at all the same. E-mails are generally private between just a couple people, while forums are very public.

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The bans were reversed of course, but I don't see that as a sign that the system is working well.

 

If this massive fuss hadn't occurred over their bans, would they have been reversed? Because I seem to remember the staff arguing that the bans were just, we (users) don't know the full details, and that we will never get to know. If it takes a riot and a schism to reverse unjust bans, it's dysfunctional. Also, three users were banned in a short period of time. All three had their bans reversed. It looks a lot like a banning rampage by a small number of people. A rampage that took two days to reverse. Two days while the half the community was up in arms protesting.

 

Why did the deliberation process take so long? Was the justice of the bans ambiguous? Did you break your principles to keep the community happy? To be honest, I don't see either of those being true. I think your system is messed up.

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If it takes a riot and a schism to reverse unjust bans, it's dysfunctional.

Except it doesn't. If no riot had occurred, we would have had the same result. Either the banned users would have appealed and we would have reevaluated/removed the bans that way, or after a few hours the admin team would have reviewed everything and again made the same changes. The riot was in no way required for us to reach the ending that we did.

 

Why did the deliberation process take so long? Was the justice of the bans ambiguous? Did you break your principles to keep the community happy? To be honest, I don't see either of those being true. I think your system is messed up.

Honestly, unless every single person has the exact same opinion, everything takes a while to get done. We have 9 administrators and unfortunately we don't always agree on everything 100%. Everyone has to have a chance to give their input (and when we live in different time zones, even this can take a while) and then we have to come to a majority decision. It's a simple fact of life that when you have a lot of people involved, it takes longer.

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Adding on to what Tripsis said, the reason stuff often takes so long to get done is because different staff members have different opinions. It's generally not a super-majority, where practically everyone wants the same things and we all agree. Often it's extremely close, split between two sides wanting different things.

 

For example, I want our censor relaxed. I think the majority of our users can handle some words that are currently censored being uncensored. But the majority doesn't agree with me, so it doesn't happen. It works the same way with pretty much everything (although obviously the admins have the final say).

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If this massive fuss hadn't occurred over their bans, would they have been reversed? Because I seem to remember the staff arguing that the bans were just, we (users) don't know the full details, and that we will never get to know. If it takes a riot and a schism to reverse unjust bans, it's dysfunctional. Also, three users were banned in a short period of time. All three had their bans reversed. It looks a lot like a banning rampage by a small number of people. A rampage that took two days to reverse. Two days while the half the community was up in arms protesting.

 

As soon as one of the bans was made there were already mods saying it wasn't deserved, and it quite obviously wasn't. The other two bans are actually quite borderline, but because the situation they were reversed. There was no riot that I saw, but those threads in General Discussion were already made quite a while before the bans were handed out which were from posts made in those threads. There was no banning rampage, it was 3 people banned by two different staff members.

 

On the topic of it taking two days to reverse, I agree that one of the bans should have been reversed right away, but all of the administrators and moderators are just volunteers. We're all on different timezones and some have full time jobs, school and university commitments. All bans go through the appeal system to reverse them, this is something would could look at speeding up when a ban is obviously wrong though.

 

EDIT: and I got ninjad by tripsis and Y_Guy :(

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Those wrongly banned were reversed, and the admins have apologized. But those who's bans haven't been reversed, were deserved. But some people like to continue to bring it up as an unjust ban :rolleyes:

 

Some people must really suck at not getting banned. I have no relations to mods, I am not friends with a single mod, I've been in plenty of arguments with mods, and most importantly I don't give a [cabbage] about their duty. That being said, I straight up reject some of these gestapo stories I'm hearing. I can be as controversial and sharp-tongued as I want and the mods have never had a problem with it, unless I go too far. If you really manage to find yourself on the "mod's bad boy list", it's probably because you were seeking that sort of attention in the first place or it was some sort of temporary mistake - not some gestapo crap that everyone is so quick to believe.

 

And slightly on topic...

 

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Those wrongly banned were reversed, and the admins have apologized. But those who's bans haven't been reversed, were deserved. But some people like to continue to bring it up as an unjust ban :rolleyes:

 

Some people must really suck at not getting banned. I have no relations to mods, I am not friends with a single mod, I've been in plenty of arguments with mods, and most importantly I don't give a [cabbage] about their duty. That being said, I straight up reject some of these gestapo stories I'm hearing. I can be as controversial and sharp-tongued as I want and the mods have never had a problem with it, unless I go too far. If you really manage to find yourself on the "mod's bad boy list", it's probably because you were seeking that sort of attention in the first place or it was some sort of temporary mistake - not some gestapo crap that everyone is so quick to believe.

 

And slightly on topic...

 

PLZ BRING BACK BOYZLOVEME SHE IS INNOCENT AND HOT!!

 

Lol'd. How's that on topic, did he/she get banned or something?

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I'm not sure how the fact that the bans were reversed is a sign that the system is working, if it was working, wouldn't they have not been banned? Also, I'm curious as to why mods/admins must discuss an unbanning at length but not a banning (as evidenced by the speed of bans compared to unbanning-not complaining about the length to unban, pointing out the difference in the two times). If it's an issue with somebody continuing to spam/troll/post graphic content, could a 1-6 hour mute of sorts not be applied? This would allow them to have access to the message centre etc still.

In a year, this whole affair will have been forgotten and the potential for a rerun will reappear unless there are major changes to the system. I say transparency when asked is the only way to fix this. That is, unless you're going to go the whole way and have community votes on bannings, but you'll never do that (No offense, it's not even suitable for a community of this size.).

 

The forum staff has learnt from this experience, (remember most of us haven't been staff for a very long time, a lot of the older staff left in a clump) and none of these mistakes will happen again.

Not meaning to be disrespectful, but just because none of you will make the same mistake again, the same can't be said of any new moderators a change in moderators will happen eventually. A change in policy would effect this and hopefully outlast the current moderator/admin team/some of its members anyway.

 

I think having a separate forum for warnings and bans would be appropriate as it would solve a few issues. For one, it would allow offensive posts to be moved from threads while still providing a record for users to refer to as if you don't see a post before it is moved, it can be very difficult to track what is going on and I believe is part of the reason that such a ruckus was made in the past view days; people were confused, even after all the protesting, many people don't have the full picture. Secondly, having it as a separate forum would avoid an excess of messages that somebody mentioned earlier, only those who are interested would have to see them. To avoid the offence of anything in these forums, everything could be in hide tags or some other check could be made when entering that area. Also it could be considered an offence to quote from this area.

 

As soon as one of the bans was made there were already mods saying it wasn't deserved, and it quite obviously wasn't. The other two bans are actually quite borderline, but because the situation they were reversed. There was no riot that I saw, but those threads in General Discussion were already made quite a while before the bans were handed out which were from posts made in those threads. There was no banning rampage, it was 3 people banned by two different staff members.

If the system was more transparent, facts such as who did the banning wouln't need to be questioned, saving moderator time.

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As soon as one of the bans was made there were already mods saying it wasn't deserved, and it quite obviously wasn't. The other two bans are actually quite borderline, but because the situation they were reversed. There was no riot that I saw, but those threads in General Discussion were already made quite a while before the bans were handed out which were from posts made in those threads. There was no banning rampage, it was 3 people banned by two different staff members.

If the system was more transparent, facts such as who did the banning wouln't need to be questioned, saving moderator time.

 

The question I'd like answered is, what good would that do? Making the whole thing transparent actually sounds counterproductive, since now not only do you have to pass along information about a particular user's ban, you also have to deal with people who think/feel that it was unfair.

 

This leads me to believe that, instead of transparency between staff->users, there should be more information available to admins about who was banned and for what reason. In my mind, moderators are free to disagree with the bannings, but doing so in a public forum usually leaves a black eye for the entire process. Kind of like this.

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The admins have all the information moderators have, and more by default.

 

Expanding more on this.

 

The administrators have access to every board on this forum as well as the administration control panel (which opens up a wide variety of tools which regular moderators aren't able to access). So I really don't see any reason why the administrators would have any less information, if not more.

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Moderators and admins keep thorough records of who was banned, for what reason, and what ban message they received. On top of that, administrators have access to automatic moderator logs that show which moderator locked which topic or banned which user, etc.

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I still don't understand the logic. If two individuals are angry at each other, how is whisking the posts away to an invisible forum going to help resolve the issue? Then you follow up with a PM to the individual saying "Hayyy...stop that"

We also do a lot of in-thread moderating but in most cases, if the posts aren't removed and a moderator just comes in asking people to stop, people will continue the discussion anyway because the posts are still there, taunting them to reply. This is particularly true if it's a flame war and people are insulting each other or jumping down their throats. But by removing the posts, people don't feel inclined to respond to each other anymore since the posts are no longer there.

 

I still feel like this solution is like cutting off your finger if you get a splinter. What is the big deal if people keep responding to each other? If anyone is put off by the discussion they can just leave the thread. I think if people are choosing to participate in a flame war it is the moderators job to resolve the dispute, not simply hide it.

 

The problem is that it takes time and patience to resolve a dispute. It takes seconds to click "move to the black hole forums" or whatever it is that you do with the posts.

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We try to leave discussion as is - but we do have certain rules that we enforce on the forums. If people insist on breaking these rules, they are punished, it's as simple as that, and removing their posts is part of that.

 

We don't want to be removing posts. But sometimes, there's no other option.

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