TIF is bit over-moderated

[obfuscator]

We have actually had a couple threads in the past where users have been invited to give their feedback about our moderation and moderators. The reason we've strayed away from allowing public discussion is that what happens in 99% of cases (as we've seen here today) is that the users doing so will be upset that they've been disciplined for rulebreaking and will post false or incomplete information about the action that was taken in order to make the staff look bad.

[The Observer]

 

How about we come up with some goals for the direction of these boards? No, I don't want any blanket statements such as "the mods are bad," what are the serious issues that need to be addressed and how can they be fixed?

 

H&A- Infuriating to give good advice, it needs some form of quality control

AoW- Same thing, much of it is poor or out of date, it needs quality control

 

It takes people to take the time to actually write the guides. If the guides were written (or rewritten) then perhaps they would be replaced much sooner.

[obfuscator]

I think part of the issue here is that our attempt to "crack down on trolling" was actually an attempt to improve the situation of Gen and H&A, where like Nifflin says they can be very frustrating places to post...

[curtis95112]

We have actually had a couple threads in the past where users have been invited to give their feedback about our moderation and moderators. The reason we've strayed away from allowing public discussion is that what happens in 99% of cases (as we've seen here today) is that the users doing so will be upset that they've been disciplined for rulebreaking and will post false or incomplete information about the action that was taken in order to make the staff look bad.

 

Why don't you make your records public in such cases? I'm hearing lots of stories about recent bannings and your refusal to tell us anything makes you look like you're hiding something. Darkdude's supposed glee at a certain poster leaving just makes it worse.

 

It's not necessary to announce every banning but you should explain your actions when challenged.

[obfuscator]

We have actually had a couple threads in the past where users have been invited to give their feedback about our moderation and moderators. The reason we've strayed away from allowing public discussion is that what happens in 99% of cases (as we've seen here today) is that the users doing so will be upset that they've been disciplined for rulebreaking and will post false or incomplete information about the action that was taken in order to make the staff look bad.

 

Why don't you make your records public in such cases? I'm hearing lots of stories about recent bannings and your refusal to tell us anything makes you look like you're hiding something. Darkdude's supposed glee at a certain poster leaving just makes it worse.

 

It's not necessary to announce every banning but you should explain your actions when challenged.

 

Well basically we keep our records private out of respect for the users, though it may seem difficult to believe. We remove stuff from public view generally because it's not suitable FOR public view, no matter who posted it.

 

The idea has been discussed though, I wouldn't rule it out that it might happen at some point.

 

We already do explain our actions though, just directly to the offending party, and not to everyone who wants to know. The disadvantage of this is that of course, if the person being disciplined decides to put a spin on it to make themselves look better we're stuck between a rock and a hard place in terms of how we look to gen pop.

[Vulxai]

On the issue of Quality control in H&A, there's no real fair way to do this. There's a lot of advice given under false pretenses, not intentional trolling. All you can do is have a civil debate with said user explaining the erroneous information they provided.

[Lose No Hope]

On the issue of Quality control in H&A, there's no real fair way to do this. There's a lot of advice given under false pretenses, not intentional trolling. All you can do is have a civil debate with said user explaining the erroneous information they provided.

Until they flame you, call you an efficiency freak, and/or completely derail the topic...

 

It's happened plenty before.

[Vulxai]

On the issue of Quality control in H&A, there's no real fair way to do this. There's a lot of advice given under false pretenses, not intentional trolling. All you can do is have a civil debate with said user explaining the erroneous information they provided.

Until they flame you, call you an efficiency freak, and/or completely derail the topic...

 

It's happened plenty before.

 

Yes, I have seen this myself. That can be dealt with, and hopefully it will start to be dealt with in an appropriate manner.

[All_Is_Great]

On the issue of Quality control in H&A, there's no real fair way to do this. There's a lot of advice given under false pretenses, not intentional trolling. All you can do is have a civil debate with said user explaining the erroneous information they provided.

 

Exactly, instead of "I'm too tired to deal with stupidity so I'll just insult you instead".

 

You can't really do much to improve H&A. Splitting into Efficiency and Fun is just a terrible idea, what if the question has nothing to do with either??? I mean, the least we can all do is to respect other posters and not insult them at the first sight of "wrong information".

[Vulxai]

On the issue of Quality control in H&A, there's no real fair way to do this. There's a lot of advice given under false pretenses, not intentional trolling. All you can do is have a civil debate with said user explaining the erroneous information they provided.

 

Exactly, instead of "I'm too tired to deal with stupidity so I'll just insult you instead".

 

You can't really do much to improve H&A. Splitting into Efficiency and Fun is just a terrible idea, what if the question has nothing to do with either??? I mean, the least we can all do is to respect other posters and not insult them at the first sight of "wrong information".

 

Agreed totally. Not everyone strives for 100% efficiency (if I did, I would have quit a long time ago). Half the time I idle out standing at a bank...it took me 5 months to get 99 cooking. I am obviously FAR from efficient, however I still enjoy the game nonetheless. Sure, every now and then I'd like to know HOW to do something the best way, but if I choose some other way, I'd rather not be insulted.

[Dark_Yeng]

I'd like to see mods be a little more restrict, because there are way too many quote lover without using hide tag for long [beep] post/criticize/trolls/flamers/spammers on here (General Discussion).

 

Lock or delete threads that are similar or merged it. For an example: "Bots" threads. Do we really need to see the same/similar threads popping up every day/week/month? Hell no!

 

"TIF is bit overermoderrated." Nah. I think they're too nice.

 

 

Oh, and banhammer users for making low quality threads - sorry, kidding. I don't like to type much, so that's all I had to say to the Mods. Keep up the good work! :)

[Makoto_the_Phoenix]

So I seem to have missed the ensuing brouhaha that happened here while I was getting more important stuff squared away for the last few weeks. No bother. I'll keep my reply as egoless and as frank as possible -provided the earth I speak on is not scorched. Just keep in the back of your mind that I'm not talking about anyone or any group in particular.

 

---

 

To be frank, the TIF moderation was lacking in some parts. It's a major reason why I stopped coming here extremely often a year or so ago. Some of the things that would be allowed (in-house trolling, bashing, etc) back then just didn't jive with me, so I split. Perhaps I should've brought it to their attention, but this had been going on with the same users for at least two or more years, and I thought that it'd be an obvious thing. My mistake.

 

When I did ask for help or report an issue, the mods/admins were pretty quick to reply. No complaints there, really. Then again, I suppose I'm "thick-skinned" - I only really make use of the moderators/administrators when there's a major violation of the rules, or something is really offensive, or something from Tip.it causes Firefox/Chrome to have a fit.

 

The nitpicky stuff - the level of trolling and general immaturity on the forums (in my opinion, mind you) - that's what caused me to go. This is the sort of thing that I felt the moderation didn't do a good job of handling - the trolls and the trolling, in its not-so-obvious ways.

 

---

 

I'll sum up here, since I've rambled on too long. TIF isn't undermoderated, nor is it overmoderated. It's adequate in some spots, but the whole thing about dealing with trolls, in my mind, needs to be stepped up.

[FooK-A-Ji]

Given the community population and the general wild behaviour of many users I think the administration is doing a great job.

With that said I have an idea that might and might not improve the general experience for the common user on tip.it.

 

 

I think the moderators and administrators need a new rank that only 1 person can hold. Like super administrator. And that person will have the final say in all things if need be, ending all conflicts and discussions.

Since tip.it is in a sense a dictatorship, where the rules are dictated by the users with the powers vested in them to uphold, I feel we should bring the dictatorship to the next level and have 1 person who dictates everything.

 

This person would of course have to be wise beyond godlike, fair, have a good sense of humor and have good looks (it's hard to be mad at a person with dashing good looks).

 

I also strongly feel that this idea would only work if the person was me.

[Nifflin]

I think part of the issue here is that our attempt to "crack down on trolling" was actually an attempt to improve the situation of Gen and H&A, where like Nifflin says they can be very frustrating places to post...

You just banned/alienated some of the most frequent posters and guide writers. That is not a success.

[Jaffy1]

You just banned/alienated some of the most frequent posters and guide writers. That is not a success.

Who had been trolling beyond reason and were posting porn and other obscure content on a site where minors view the pages too..

If behaving like that doesn't warrent a ban, what does?

 

To be honest, it should never have gotten so far in the first place.

 

 

I agree with the below.

I'll sum up here, since I've rambled on too long. TIF isn't undermoderated, nor is it overmoderated. It's adequate in some spots, but the whole thing about dealing with trolls, in my mind, needs to be stepped up.

[Nifflin]

You just banned/alienated some of the most frequent posters and guide writers. That is not a success.

Who had been trolling beyond reason and were posting porn and other obscure content on a site where minors view the pages too..

If behaving like that doesn't warrent a ban, what does?

 

To be honest, it should never have gotten so far in the first place.

 

 

I agree with the below.

I'll sum up here, since I've rambled on too long. TIF isn't undermoderated, nor is it overmoderated. It's adequate in some spots, but the whole thing about dealing with trolls, in my mind, needs to be stepped up.

 

The actions of one angry user =/= the actions of the group. The person who posted porn has been warned by the admins on the new forums not to do it again. It is the general consensus there that trolling TIF will accomplish nothing.

 

Also, that was not the reason that xpx and TheAncient got banned, which is what really set this whole thing off.

 

Edit: I would also like to point out that the users behind proxies were hidden to both groups, so nobody could contact them and tell them to stop.

[Hobgoblinpie]

Oh and jaffy, i would really love to get personal with you. You have no idea. You seem to be the biggest troll of them all but here, having a coloured name means you get to do just what you want. You just call it "advice" or "constructive critisism" and its all good. You're making yourself look like a realy idiot, just so you know.

 

Everyone is allowed to have their view and opinion of a situation. Just because you don't agree with it doesn't make it wrong. Same goes if it was the other way around.

[Ginger_Warrior]

You just banned/alienated some of the most frequent posters and guide writers. That is not a success.

Who had been trolling beyond reason and were posting porn and other obscure content on a site where minors view the pages too..

If behaving like that doesn't warrent a ban, what does?

 

To be honest, it should never have gotten so far in the first place.

 

 

I agree with the below.

I'll sum up here, since I've rambled on too long. TIF isn't undermoderated, nor is it overmoderated. It's adequate in some spots, but the whole thing about dealing with trolls, in my mind, needs to be stepped up.

Yeah because every one of them were frequent trolls and porn posters :rolleyes:

 

You seem to like putting everyone in the same basket. You don;t even seem to know what you;re talking from, not even from the very beginning. You are a joke, just like the rest of the mods/crew (with the exeption of one or two). My 15 year old cousin ran his art based forum better than you run these and hes a [bleep]ing 15 year old. For christ sake pull the carrot out of your ass, stop being so butthurt and start accepting the views of others. Maybe then your forums will stop turning the the dog [cabbage] i scraped off my shoe this morning.

 

 

Oh and jaffy, i would really love to get personal with you. You have no idea. You seem to be the biggest troll of them all but here, having a coloured name means you get to do just what you want. You just call it "advice" or "constructive critisism" and its all good. You're making yourself look like a realy idiot, just so you know.

If it's so bad, why are you here? I know there's a case for criticism but then there's also like 'Where are you coming from with this?', you know?

 

Your post just came off as somebody looking for someone else to pin all their frustrations on, just saying. And actually, having seen Jaffy on the OT board she's not a troll in my opinion. She can lecture people, she's quite opinionated, but not a troll. This isn't a crime and it has nothing to do with her crewship so why you brought that up I don't know.

[Jaffy1]

Your post just came off as somebody looking for someone else to pin all their frustrations on, just saying. And actually, having seen Jaffy on the OT board she's not a troll in my opinion. She can lecture people, she's quite opinionated, but not a troll. This isn't a crime and it has nothing to do with her crewship so why you brought that up I don't know.

Thank you for saying that.

I feel that is an accurate assessment, though being rather opinionated can be considered a flaw, I do try to avoid conflict by ceasing to post when things grow too heated.

 

In light of that, this is one of those times I will cease to post. xD

[Assume Nothing]

I'd just like to quickly propose a few 'quick-fix/solutions' (EDIT - Giant wall of text!):

 

Put a rule that posts with irrelevant advice may be removed (or editted) with discretion of the moderators.

 

Moderators who judge H&A should be somewhat knowledgeable of RS

 

A rule that allows moderators to warn/action against users who consistently 'toe the line' of the rules (ie: Cause nuisance without breaking the rules. An old example would be when Screenies thread permitted a post as long as it contained a picture that's RS related. Users abused this and posted what was essentially spam in a RS chatwindow, and moderators were unable to issue bans due to fear of backlash)

 

Moderators being moderated by other moderators.

 

A post with ridiculous advice in H&A (eg: Train on cows for 99 strength) should be removed, if the malicious advice was

intentional.

 

As mentioned before, a 'degrading black marks' system, where a user can be given a chance to change before being issued with a ban.

 

If a pointless thread is made, let it be locked. I've seen time and time again when previous posters like Undo made pointless threads in both OT and GD, which gained some traffic through lack of expected moderator action.

 

Iron out contradictions. Everyone in the moderator team should be consistent in what to expect from users, and what to be expected of the moderators. If you don't like spam, don't post it!

 

Sometimes players overreact. When they do, a moderator should post to inform the player of their wrongdoings, instead of letting a flamewar erupt. When players do overreact, I also see 'Oh my god it's a joke' as an attempt to justify their 'wrongdoings'. Joke or not, if it's perceived as flame, it should be treated as flame.

 

Report system - When I've used it in the past, sometimes quote chains aren't removed and the quoted offending post remains. This helps nobody - Perhaps look through them, and take appropriate action?

 

Name calling should never be allowed in H&A. It's too often tolerated that when a user posts legitimate advice, they get flamed by another user because their playstyles don't suit one another.

 

Don't ban based on personal feelings - I've seen people (no names) that have been threatened to be banned for taking a position in an argument. Unless the argument presented were completely ridiculous, I don't think that's fair.

 

I could keep going on, but I feel this list is already quite exhaustive without me doing so. Perhaps a moderator could shed some light with their opinion on my propositions?

[obfuscator]

Put a rule that posts with irrelevant advice may be removed (or editted) with discretion of the moderators.

 

Moderators who judge H&A should be somewhat knowledgeable of RS

 

This is already in place, pretty much. If there's any doubt about the validity of the advice the moderators who still play are always consulted.

 

 

A rule that allows moderators to warn/action against users who consistently 'toe the line' of the rules (ie: Cause nuisance without breaking the rules. An old example would be when Screenies thread permitted a post as long as it contained a picture that's RS related. Users abused this and posted what was essentially spam in a RS chatwindow, and moderators were unable to issue bans due to fear of backlash)

 

Then we get all kinds of backlash from users saying they haven't broken any rules.

 

Moderators being moderated by other moderators.

 

The admins moderate the moderators.

 

 

As mentioned before, a 'degrading black marks' system, where a user can be given a chance to change before being issued with a ban.

 

Already in place as well, if offenses are far apart bans are much less likely to be handed out.

 

If a pointless thread is made, let it be locked. I've seen time and time again when previous posters like Undo made pointless threads in both OT and GD, which gained some traffic through lack of expected moderator action.

 

Then the poster complaints that the post wasn't pointless.

 

Iron out contradictions. Everyone in the moderator team should be consistent in what to expect from users, and what to be expected of the moderators. If you don't like spam, don't post it!

 

If everyone stuck to your suggestion, we'd have no problem. The problem is that most users see spam as an occasion to spam more. The mod team does our best to be consistent, but often situations come up which haven't been addressed and sometimes mod opinion will differ,

 

Sometimes players overreact. When they do, a moderator should post to inform the player of their wrongdoings, instead of letting a flamewar erupt. When players do overreact, I also see 'Oh my god it's a joke' as an attempt to justify their 'wrongdoings'. Joke or not, if it's perceived as flame, it should be treated as flame.

 

Already happens, and it leads to complaints of "unfair action" like we've seen over the past week.

 

Report system - When I've used it in the past, sometimes quote chains aren't removed and the quoted offending post remains. This helps nobody - Perhaps look through them, and take appropriate action?

 

Reports are always looked through. If a post remains it's because it's been deemed acceptable or simply been misssed.

 

Name calling should never be allowed in H&A. It's too often tolerated that when a user posts legitimate advice, they get flamed by another user because their playstyles don't suit one another.

 

Don't ban based on personal feelings - I've seen people (no names) that have been threatened to be banned for taking a position in an argument. Unless the argument presented were completely ridiculous, I don't think that's fair.

 

I could keep going on, but I feel this list should be quite exhaustive without me doing so. Perhaps a moderator could shed some light with their opinion on my propositions?

 

Name calling isn't allowed period. We tried to crack down on that, and that's part of the reason this whole issue happened.

 

I have never in my time here seen someone banned for taking positions in an argument, or banned because they weren't liked. In fact, several users who almost everyone else (staff and other users included) detested have stuck around for a long time precisely because we don't pan because of personal feelings. If you have actually seen this happen, message an administrator and they'll sort it.

[Assume Nothing]

At the toeing the line response: Perhaps reserve the right to edit policies, so long as most administrators/moderators agree?

 

EDIT - Many of the 'suggestions' that are claimed to be in place seems to be sometimes too low on enforcement.

 

About the pointless threads: Flame and trolling existing in a thread doesn't make a pointless thread less pointless.

[The Dark Lord]

I have never in my time here seen someone banned for taking positions in an argument

 

I'm just going to go ahead and mention this while we're on this subject. (Note I'm not complaining or anything)

 

I was actually banned recently (one more mistake and I'm permanently banned) for making a post in Off-Topic in the thread about soldiers murdering civilians. In it, I was being sarcastic and made a comment along the lines of: "It appears these soldiers are brave and are serving our country." While it was obvious trolling (I even admitted this), I could see where it could potentially inhibit free speech. Of course it would be an absolutely ridiculous thing for someone to say, but what if they were being honest and were simply stating their views? Would they be banned or warned? What if someone with radical ideas wanted to create a discussion, and the mods locked the thread because they thought it was offensive?

 

For example, discussions about homosexuality and abortion are pretty normative, but what if homosexuality and abortion were more taboo subjects than they are today? Would the mods delete these threads and/or issue bans? Where do you draw the line?

[Makoto_the_Phoenix]

I have never in my time here seen someone banned for taking positions in an argument

 

I'm just going to go ahead and mention this while we're on this subject. (Note I'm not complaining or anything)

 

I was actually banned recently (one more mistake and I'm permanently banned) for making a post in Off-Topic in the thread about soldiers murdering civilians. In it, I was being sarcastic and made a comment along the lines of: "It appears these soldiers are brave and are serving our country." While it was obvious trolling (I even admitted this), I could see where it could potentially inhibit free speech. Of course it would be an absolutely ridiculous thing for someone to say, but what if they were being honest and were simply stating their views? Would they be banned or warned? What if someone with radical ideas wanted to create a discussion, and the mods locked the thread because they thought it was offensive?

 

Typically the Rules of a fansite dictate what you can and cannot say, or what you can and cannot post. For the most part, TIF is pretty lenient on this, and it disallows the pretty obvious stuff (porn, major obscenities). But we've all got to take it with a grain of salt - free speech is free insofar as the rules of this website.

[Golvellius]

My only beef with moderation was that they let the H&A forum deteriorate into a troll festival back a year or so ago.

I tried to get from 900 to 1000 posts by offering stuff up that I learned on my way to nearly all 99s at the time.

H&A was just a terrible.

Of course, I'm no angel and I wasn't going to get bullied out of H&A or watch other people take it so I took it upon myself to setup shop opposing our recently departed "friends".

Things just slowly spiraled out of control since.

I had some sinful fun and cheap laughs while poking fun at the big headed ones.

But, I think that time is past, so lets move on and enjoy some peace and quiet and focus on the real enemy, Jagex's Quality Control Team. :thumbup: