TIF is bit over-moderated

[Lose No Hope]

oh hi golv

[All_Is_Great]

My only beef with moderation was that they let the H&A forum deteriorate into a troll festival back a year or so ago.

I tried to get from 900 to 1000 posts by offering stuff up that I learned on my way to nearly all 99s at the time.

H&A was just a terrible.

Of course, I'm no angel and I wasn't going to get bullied out of H&A or watch other people take it so I took it upon myself to setup shop opposing our recently departed "friends".

Things just slowly spiraled out of control since.

I had some sinful fun and cheap laughs while poking fun at the big headed ones.

But, I think that time is past, so lets move on and enjoy some peace and quiet and focus on the real enemy, Jagex's Quality Control Team. :thumbup:

 

I agree, a year ago, you could just see the beginning of the trolling on the H&A threads. I also did try to oppose those who departed, but maybe it wasn't the best choice, but who knows.

[Stev]

The moderating is fine. It's the rules that make it seem like TIF is just trying to kiss up Jagex's ass that make these forums ridiculous.

 

You are a fansite; not Jagex. You're not RuneScape. Yet since you were hellbent on being platinum, you let Jagex run your forums. You can see how successful they are... Just look at the RSOF.

[xpx]

The moderating is fine. It's the rules that make it seem like TIF is just trying to kiss up Jagex's ass that make these forums ridiculous.

 

You are a fansite; not Jagex. You're not RuneScape. Yet since you were hellbent on being platinum, you let Jagex run your forums. You can see how successful they are... Just look at the RSOF.

Inb4removed because it's too constructive.

 

The situation 2 days ago really showed some weaknesses in the current system- instead of working on removing the obviously bogus ban, the moderation decided to ban users talking about the situation, therefor escalating it to a whole nother level, not to mention, they also failed us in trying to remove the guide. Instead of being open about it and discuss their position, they tried to play hide and seek which obviously didn't go too well either. This really calls for more openness in the system, something of which we don't see at all.

[Ginger_Warrior]

I'm not sure there's any proof that Jagex has influenced Tip.It's policy on rules. At best, I think you're playing guilt by association there. Tip.It had rules against spamming long ago, even while Jagex refused to acknowledge fansites, let alone support them.

 

And to the best of my knowledge 'Don't be rude' is just a basic social rule wherever you are, except perhaps in a UFC cage. It doesn't matter whether you're being rude in the process of offering someone else advice as an expert on whatever matter they've asked about, or being rude anywhere else.

[Stev]

Look at things like the, "Ever been tempted to cheat?" thread. Anyone who said, "Yeah, I tried a bot a few years back," their post was removed. It's pathetic. As if I'm going to see, "I used to bot," and go, "OMFG! You know what I should do?! I should bot! He used to!!!"

 

So really all that thread could be about was, "Naw, I've never botted." That is one of the hundreds of examples that TIF bends over for Jagex.

 

Another example, I got a week ban from TIF because I posted a picture of my GFs account. That made it seem like "we were account sharing which is against the RuneScape rules". -.- Erm, hello? She's my IRL GF? Surprised that I haven't been banned yet for mentioning a GF... So many nerds have added me saying I'm reported for "solicitation", also against Jagex's rules.

[Ginger_Warrior]

Again, there's always been a rule about not promoting in-game offences on the forums for as long as I can remember. In years gone by, this was to stop people from advertising botting websites. I can't see any correlation between that rule being created years and years ago, and Tip.It's only recent status as a recognised fansite.

[curtis95112]

Again, there's always been a rule about not promoting in-game offences on the forums for as long as I can remember. In years gone by, this was to stop people from advertising botting websites. I can't see any correlation between that rule being created years and years ago, and Tip.It's only recent status as a recognised fansite.

Even if it has nothing to do with Jagex, it's not being optimally enforced.

[Danqazmlp]

The moderating is fine. It's the rules that make it seem like TIF is just trying to kiss up Jagex's ass that make these forums ridiculous.

 

You are a fansite; not Jagex. You're not RuneScape. Yet since you were hellbent on being platinum, you let Jagex run your forums. You can see how successful they are... Just look at the RSOF.

 

This is such an infuriating claim which keeps cropping up. The Tip.it forum has had rules enforcing the Runescape rules for at least 7 years now, long before any sort of recognition by Jagex. As far as I am aware, the rules did not change at all when we became a platinum status fan-site. Any claim we bend over backwards for them is just an un-based accusation.

 

I would agree there are probably things we can do to help enforcement of it, but a majority of the time it is clear why we remove things according to these rules.

[The Observer]

The moderating is fine. It's the rules that make it seem like TIF is just trying to kiss up Jagex's ass that make these forums ridiculous.

 

You are a fansite; not Jagex. You're not RuneScape. Yet since you were hellbent on being platinum, you let Jagex run your forums. You can see how successful they are... Just look at the RSOF.

 

The rules are by far much more lenient than Jagex would allow on their own forums. Take for example URLs. You are not allowed to advertise websites on their forums whatsoever. I don't see any rule inherently similar to this.

 

As for the other things (admitting you broke the rules, etc), these rules were in place long before Jagex even recognized fansites. In fact, they've gotten much more lenient. I remember when I was issued a warning because I posted something about SwiftSwitch on the clan boards. I'm pretty sure other notable fansites have similar rules put in place, so I don't see it as much of an issue in that sense either.

[Rainy_Day]

The moderating is fine. It's the rules that make it seem like TIF is just trying to kiss up Jagex's ass that make these forums ridiculous.

 

You are a fansite; not Jagex. You're not RuneScape. Yet since you were hellbent on being platinum, you let Jagex run your forums. You can see how successful they are... Just look at the RSOF.

Inb4removed because it's too constructive.

 

The situation 2 days ago really showed some weaknesses in the current system- instead of working on removing the obviously bogus ban, the moderation decided to ban users talking about the situation, therefor escalating it to a whole nother level, not to mention, they also failed us in trying to remove the guide. Instead of being open about it and discuss their position, they tried to play hide and seek which obviously didn't go too well either. This really calls for more openness in the system, something of which we don't see at all.

I'm getting a little bored of the people who were banned not telling the truth as to their bans, or being too blind to see that their bans were deserved, considering the amount of spam, harassment, etc that they were posting. So no, we were not banning people simply for discussing the situation, we banned people who broke our rules repetitively.

[xpx]

I'm getting a little bored of the people who were banned not telling the truth as to their bans, or being too blind to see that their bans were deserved, considering the amount of spam, harassment, etc that they were posting. So no, we were not banning people simply for discussing the situation, we banned people who broke our rules repetitively.

Oh, so you are not happy with people being selective about what they tell about bans? It's not us that do everything to keep the system as secret as possible, so i don't think it's fair for any of the admins to complain about it- people have been wanting a more open system for a while.

[Rainy_Day]

I'm getting a little bored of the people who were banned not telling the truth as to their bans, or being too blind to see that their bans were deserved, considering the amount of spam, harassment, etc that they were posting. So no, we were not banning people simply for discussing the situation, we banned people who broke our rules repetitively.

Oh, so you are not happy with people being selective about what they tell about bans? It's not us that do everything to keep the system as secret as possible, so i don't think it's fair for any of the admins to complain about it- people have been wanting a more open system for a while.

It's not being secretive, but all bans given were fair/deserved at the time of being handed out. We can't be to blame when those banned make up various excuses for their actions to make it seem as though it was "unfair" or "bogus".

[Danqazmlp]

I'm getting a little bored of the people who were banned not telling the truth as to their bans, or being too blind to see that their bans were deserved, considering the amount of spam, harassment, etc that they were posting. So no, we were not banning people simply for discussing the situation, we banned people who broke our rules repetitively.

Oh, so you are not happy with people being selective about what they tell about bans? It's not us that do everything to keep the system as secret as possible, so i don't think it's fair for any of the admins to complain about it- people have been wanting a more open system for a while.

 

Admins are not selective about what is shown or spread rumours about bans and warnings, but keep the whole thing quiet. This isn't done to protect us but users. Many people will not want to see their name plastered around the forum if they are banned or warned as it can be both embarrassing and has the chance of making them feel as though they are being made fun of if they are shown out as a rule breaker.

 

You have to remember that admins cannot suddenly change how things work. The team cannot suddenly make all the staff forums visible or our records public as there is a lot of sensitive material in there. It is not black and white or clear-cut as just being more visible and open, which is a bit of an unreasonable demand to ask for so bluntly. There is talk of making some things more public, but it cannot be done overnight. Until things are changed, it would be nice to stick to the rules we currently enforce, such as not talking about bans at all if possible without the whole story being known, as it does not help the situation at all.

[tripsis]

You are a fansite; not Jagex. You're not RuneScape. Yet since you were hellbent on being platinum, you let Jagex run your forums. You can see how successful they are... Just look at the RSOF.

Danqazmlp answered this very well, I just want to back up what he's saying. When Jagex started supporting fan sites, we only changed one thing in order to become a platinum fan site. We removed advertisements for other games. We did not change any of our rules or policies or give Jagex any control over how our forums our run. We don't uphold RuneScape rules because Jagex has asked us to or because they threaten to remove our platinum status if we don't. We uphold RuneScape rules because it's something that we believe should be done.

 

If you want to complain about our rules, fine (as long as it's done constructively). But don't accuse us of sucking up to Jagex or selling our soul because we have not changed any of our policies because of them.

[xpx]

It's not being secretive, but all bans given were fair/deserved at the time of being handed out. We can't be to blame when those banned make up various excuses for their actions to make it seem as though it was "unfair" or "bogus".

I'm sorry but on the word bogus i was just quoting one of the TIF administrators. Fair really sounds unbelievable to me considering they all took 1 second-2 hours to hand out, but 2 days to reverse- that is a HUGE deliberation difference and shows, atleast to me, that something is wrong.

[curtis95112]

I understand you can't suddenly change how things work. However, this whole mess is now past its most chaotic phase. You now have the time to change how things work. While you shouldn't publicize every ban I don't see any problem with doing so when the ban is publicly challenged by the banned (In principle, it wouldn't be difficult to remove abuse potential, perhaps create a board specifically for challenging bans that banned users can enter.). Not telling people what happened just leads to mistrust of the administration and we may see a rerun of these events again someday.

 

What I'm hearing from the banned is that the bans were impulsive and based on personal grudges. Considering that the bans were reversed (meaning they were unjust), and that they probably wouldn't have been reversed if it wasn't for this whole affair, I think we can safely say that the system is seriously dysfunctional.

 

In a year, this whole affair will have been forgotten and the potential for a rerun will reappear unless there are major changes to the system. I say transparency when asked is the only way to fix this. That is, unless you're going to go the whole way and have community votes on bannings, but you'll never do that (No offense, it's not even suitable for a community of this size.).

[All_Is_Great]

I don't see the system as dysfunctional.

 

Those wrongly banned were reversed, and the admins have apologized. But those who's bans haven't been reversed, were deserved. But some people like to continue to bring it up as an unjust ban :rolleyes:

 

Why would it have to be transparent. I mean, even in real life, such things aren't revealed to protect the USER'S privacy.

[Ginger_Warrior]

What I'm hearing from the banned is that the bans were impulsive and based on personal grudges. Considering that the bans were reversed (meaning they were unjust), and that they probably wouldn't have been reversed if it wasn't for this whole affair, I think we can safely say that the system is seriously dysfunctional.

No no, sir, you've got this wrong.

 

It would have been dysfunction had those unjustly banned not had their bans reverted. That they were reverted tells me the system is good enough as it is to pick out anomalies.

[jimmy_jim]

I understand you can't suddenly change how things work. However, this whole mess is now past its most chaotic phase. You now have the time to change how things work. While you shouldn't publicize every ban I don't see any problem with doing so when the ban is publicly challenged by the banned (In principle, it wouldn't be difficult to remove abuse potential, perhaps create a board specifically for challenging bans that banned users can enter.). Not telling people what happened just leads to mistrust of the administration and we may see a rerun of these events again someday.

 

There are always bans which are publicly challenged, especially when people have large friend groups, which, being friends are generally biased. I don't believe we should publish bans, it's not something we've ever done and I don't know of any other Fansite that has done it successfully. Also, generally when people are banned it's for making a rule breaking post, if we posted that rule breaking post to the community, it kinda takes away the point of removing it in the first place. A board specifically challenging bans kinda already exists in the account appeal system, where every Super Mod and Admin can look at the appeal, so it's not a small group of people making the decision.

 

What I'm hearing from the banned is that the bans were impulsive and based on personal grudges. Considering that the bans were reversed (meaning they were unjust), and that they probably wouldn't have been reversed if it wasn't for this whole affair, I think we can safely say that the system is seriously dysfunctional.

 

Ofcourse the banned are going to say they didn't deserve to be banned. Yes, three were impulse and they have been reversed with complete apologies made. I'd agree the system was dysfunctional if they weren't reversed. False bans very rarely happen and there was a bit of a panic when this started, and a mistake was made. I've never ever seen a ban made on a personal grudge, I know that most of the admins wouldn't stand for it and the person who did the banning would be severely reprimanded. I don't think we can safely say that the system is seriously dysfunctional, it's been in practice since the beginning of Rune Tips and has worked very well for such a large forum.

 

In a year, this whole affair will have been forgotten and the potential for a rerun will reappear unless there are major changes to the system. I say transparency when asked is the only way to fix this. That is, unless you're going to go the whole way and have community votes on bannings, but you'll never do that (No offense, it's not even suitable for a community of this size.).

 

The forum staff has learnt from this experience, (remember most of us haven't been staff for a very long time, a lot of the older staff left in a clump) and none of these mistakes will happen again.

 

Community votes on bannings could be feasible in a smaller group of people like a RuneScape clan, and some of the clans I'm in have done that and it's worked very well. Because of the size of Tip.It Forums, it'd be unreasonable to implement something like it.

 

I hope most of that makes sense, it's late now!

 

EDIT: and I agree with the above two posters!

[Rainy_Day]

I see no need for transparency. If users wish to disclose that they've been warned or banned, that's up to them, but we choose to protect people's privacy and not inform every member of this forum that someone has been banned or warned for something. If we did that, there would be a lot of messages each day regarding the various warnings and odd ban we give out. Moderating a forum of this size is no easy task, and we do not wish to name and shame people, as much as it seems you want that.

 

Unfortunately whether or not you trust that is not the problem in my eyes, you should simply know that if someone breaks the rules and we feel it necessary to ban them, then that action will be taken. If a user wishes to appeal that ban, then they can take the necessary route. But I don't feel it is appropriate for members to discuss other people's bans, or have a forum that anyone can read to discuss bans. Plus when you are banned from tip.it, it includs PM/other functions, so that your account simply cannot be used, instead of giving them the option to still do various other bits which could void the ban's affect.

 

And we're to accept that users mistrust our bans, when users were confronted with inappropriate images from those who were banned? Those who were unfortunately subject to these images can see how justified our approach was. Would a wrongly banned person seeking change evade and post such content to the users they so want to help? :mellow:

[The Dark Lord]

One thing the staff needs to really be careful about is how they come across to others.

 

Six months ago, there was a row between one of my friends who was a moderator (not naming names) and other members of the staff, and I got involved in it because I believed that this guy was being mistreated. Well, some admins and several other users got involved, and there were many heated arguments. After a while, I tried to make peace with some of the admins involved, and their response seemed dripping with sarcasm and rude. Most of the admins spammed the PM thread and basically ignored my message, and only one admin even bothered to properly respond. How did this make me feel? It pissed me off, and that's one of the reasons why I started a trolling spree.

[CaJ]

You see? What did I tell you guys?

 

I'm through arguing. Perhaps if this board were to make attitude adjustments, I'd be more sincere. Until that happens, I'll just consider TIF to be run by incompetent moderators and flaming trolls.

[Laikrob]

One thing the staff needs to really be careful about is how they come across to others.

 

Six months ago, there was a row between one of my friends who was a moderator (not naming names) and other members of the staff, and I got involved in it because I believed that this guy was being mistreated. Well, some admins and several other users got involved, and there were many heated arguments. After a while, I tried to make peace with some of the admins involved, and their response seemed dripping with sarcasm and rude. Most of the admins spammed the PM thread and basically ignored my message, and only one admin even bothered to properly respond. How did this make me feel? It pissed me off, and that's one of the reasons why I started a trolling spree.

Just reread that PM discussion, and I have to correct you: Two admins (the ones who had stated an interest in the forum) actively participated and posted properly, and another replied aswell - in a positive manner.

Using this to justify breaking the rules wouldn't hold up in court, that's all I'm saying. :)

[The Dark Lord]

One thing the staff needs to really be careful about is how they come across to others.

 

Six months ago, there was a row between one of my friends who was a moderator (not naming names) and other members of the staff, and I got involved in it because I believed that this guy was being mistreated. Well, some admins and several other users got involved, and there were many heated arguments. After a while, I tried to make peace with some of the admins involved, and their response seemed dripping with sarcasm and rude. Most of the admins spammed the PM thread and basically ignored my message, and only one admin even bothered to properly respond. How did this make me feel? It pissed me off, and that's one of the reasons why I started a trolling spree.

Just reread that PM discussion, and I have to correct you: Two admins (the ones who had stated an interest in the forum) actively participated and posted properly, and another replied aswell - in a positive manner.

Using this to justify breaking the rules wouldn't hold up in court, that's all I'm saying. :)

 

I was referring more to Das's comment:

 

Red 5 standing by

 

Whether or not he meant anything by it, I'm just saying that at that particular time, I felt like some of the admins ignored my message and chose to respond with something totally irrelevant as a sign of disrespect. It doesn't matter if that was the real intention or not. What matters is that it's very difficult to know the meaning of someone's message at times (this is the Internet after all), and it can be easy for the staff to offend users. This is basically what Rainy_Day told me in the email I received after being banned for the second time in a month in regards to a post I made. It can be difficult to interpret someone's message, and the chance of someone getting offended can be relatively high.

 

Also, I'm not trying to justify what I did to break the rules. Yes, it was intentional. I did my damnest to see how far I could have gone before getting banned (which as pretty far in my opinion). I deserved what I got. I've already discussed this in private with an admin of this website through an instant messaging program. I didn't send an appeal giving a formal apology because I didn't have time for it due to Uni.

 

EDIT: I just want it to be known that I'm not trying to reignite that event or complain about it. Seeing that it's relevant to the topic at hand, I thought that it would be a great example.