Osama Bin Laden confirmed dead

[Dietrich]

I seem to recall that many Americans were horrified and outraged when people throughout the Middle East started celebrating in the streets after 9/11, and yet I see much the same happening in the US now that bin Laden has been killed. I agree that his death is probably for the best, but the fact that people are hypocritically revelling in it is really quite repulsive. :unsure:

 

Also, the conspiracy theories already cropping up are going to be a headache, I'm sure. Burying him at sea so quickly was a mistake, IMO, even if the US military took some photos and gathered DNA evidence beforehand.

 

celebrating the death of innocent civilians == death of a terrorist leader?

One man's terrorist is another man's freedom-fighter.

 

From the perspective of a Westerner, sure, the many civilian deaths which occurred on 9/11 are a terrible, undeserved tragedy. But have you ever stopped to think about why exactly Americans are so hated by much of the Middle East? In their eyes, the US and other "Western" nations are exploitive invaders, which is understandable considering how many of the former/current Middle Eastern dictatorships the West has propped up and supported. Also, don't forget that there have been many civilian deaths over there at the hands of US and NATO forces as well, and the bloodshed has yet to cease. Is it any wonder why the "War on Terror" has been going on for years and years without any sign of abating, when the West practically forces young people to become "terrorists" in order to defend their homelands?

 

Essentially, neither side is clean of innocent blood, so it's not such a black-and-white, good-vs-evil issue.

 

 

EDIT: My internet is dying on me; I've been trying to post this for over 20 minutes now. :blink:

Edited May 2, 2011 by Dietrich

[obfuscator]

Yeah, I agree with Dietrich. While Osama killed innocent people (so his death is a good thing in that regard), America is far from innocent.

[ISREAL63]

 

Would you begrudge people celebrating Hitler's death too?

 

You mean suicide

[Faux]

One man's terrorist is another man's freedom-fighter.

 

From the perspective of a Westerner, sure, the many civilian deaths which occurred on 9/11 are a terrible, undeserved tragedy. But have you ever stopped to think about why exactly Americans are so hated by much of the Middle East? In their eyes, the US and other "Western" nations are exploitive invaders, which is understandable considering how many of the former/current Middle Eastern dictatorships the West has propped up and supported. Also, don't forget that there have been many civilian deaths over there at the hands of US and NATO forces as well, and the bloodshed has yet to cease. Is it any wonder why the "War on Terror" has been going on for years and years without any sign of abating, when the West practically forces young people to become "terrorists" in order to defend their homelands?

 

Essentially, neither side is clean of innocent blood, so it's not such a black-and-white, good-vs-evil issue.

 

 

EDIT: My internet is dying on me; I've been trying to post this for over 20 minutes now. :blink:

 

lol backpedal

 

using your "logic", cheering osama's death is comparable to cheering american soldiers' deaths. not civilians.

 

You mean suicide

 

suicide is a form of dying, yes.

[Ginger_Warrior]

Start of the week Obama wasn't even American. Now he's the most popular war President since Teddy Roosevelt with the public crying for "four more years". The ups and downs of politics, but I'm a little disappointed. I was waiting for Donald to claim he was Bin Laden but that theory's gone up the proverbial with this news.

 

I'm not particularly comfortable with the scenes in Washington and New York and I know there is a significant minority in the non-American world who feel similarly but at the same time I can understand why it's taking place. 9/11 is a wound in the American psyche that the country has never accepted and 'moved on' from, because the War on Terror is still ongoing and because successive administrations have told the public they are under imminent threat. What we're seeing on those streets is the tone found at a wake after a funeral: closure.

 

We shouldn't forget the cold hard facts though. This hasn't ended terrorism, some would say it hasn't even harmed al-Qaeda since Bin Laden's involvement with the organisation whilst in hiding was minimal. The Afghan-Pakistan border will continue to be a breeding ground for anti-Western ideology, and the death of one man certainly hasn't stopped that. There will be serious questions about the competency of Pakistan's security forces given their lack of involvement in the operation, their congruous surprise at the news with the rest of the world, and the hideout's proximity to an elite military compound only thirty miles from the capital.

 

I'm sure last night was an emotional occasion, and an important stage, but I hope Americans and people elsewhere in the western world realise that this doesn't really change much and is largely symbolic.

[Cacmypants]

I seem to recall that many Americans were horrified and outraged when people throughout the Middle East started celebrating in the streets after 9/11, and yet I see much the same happening in the US now that bin Laden has been killed. I agree that his death is probably for the best, but the fact that people are hypocritically revelling in it is really quite repulsive. :unsure:

 

Also, the conspiracy theories already cropping up are going to be a headache, I'm sure. Burying him at sea so quickly was a mistake, IMO, even if the US military took some photos and gathered DNA evidence beforehand.

 

celebrating the death of innocent civilians == death of a terrorist leader?

 

It's all about perspective.

Perhaps but thousands of people to one person isn't a perspective.

 

Would you begrudge people celebrating Hitler's death too?

 

I don't need to repeat myself, perspective leads to paradigm, paradigm shapes all opinion.

 

as far as I'm concerned, governments too are collectively responsible for countless deaths, well over those incured by terrorist attacks. To scorn one and celebrate the other is utter hypocrisy.

[Dietrich]

 

lol backpedal

 

using your "logic", cheering osama's death is comparable to cheering american soldiers' deaths. not civilians.

 

 

... How am I backpedalling? I'm not entirely sure that you know what it means, to be honest. :mellow:

 

And I don't understand whatever point you're trying to make. Both sides have killed soldiers AND civilians, and I was saying that I felt a little disgusted that Americans were celebrating bin Laden's death, even though they had previously decried the Middle Easterners who had celebrated the death of Westerners.

[obfuscator]

 

I don't need to repeat myself, perspective leads to paradigm, paradigm shapes all opinion.

 

as far as I'm concerned, governments too are collectively responsible for countless deaths, well over those incured by terrorist attacks. To scorn one and celebrate the other is utter hypocrisy.

 

You do realize there is a difference between the innocent and the guilty?

 

I'm not a fan of violence. I disagree with almost all war and military action, but I'm not naive. In this world we live in, sometimes violent action is the most appropriate solution.

[lordkafei]

I'm sure last night was an emotional occasion, and an important stage, but I hope Americans and people elsewhere in the western world realise that this doesn't really change much and is largely symbolic.

 

That all depends on who is in possession of those missing hard drives mentioned in some press accounts.

 

But Ill take the death of a high-profile, mass-murdering terrorist bastard even if nothing else comes out of it. WINNING :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:

[Faux]

lol backpedal

 

using your "logic", cheering osama's death is comparable to cheering american soldiers' deaths. not civilians.

 

 

... How am I backpedalling? I'm not entirely sure that you know what it means, to be honest. :mellow:

 

And I don't understand whatever point you're trying to make. Both sides have killed soldiers AND civilians, and I was saying that I felt a little disgusted that Americans were celebrating bin Laden's death, even though they had previously decried the Middle Easterners who had celebrated the death of Westerners.

 

9/11 caused 3000 CIVILIAN casualty. Hence celebrating 9/11 is celebrating the death of CIVILIANS.

 

Celebrating the death of OSAMA is celebrating the death of a TERRORIST/FREEDOM FIGHTER.

 

i tried to bold and cap for emphasis just to help you understand

[Cacmypants]

 

I don't need to repeat myself, perspective leads to paradigm, paradigm shapes all opinion.

 

as far as I'm concerned, governments too are collectively responsible for countless deaths, well over those incured by terrorist attacks. To scorn one and celebrate the other is utter hypocrisy.

 

You do realize there is a difference between the innocent and the guilty?

 

I'm not a fan of violence. I disagree with almost all war and military action, but I'm not naive. In this world we live in, sometimes violent action is the most appropriate solution.

 

Silly question

 

The world is like this because history has tainted it beyond repair, but that doesn't mean we should just ideologically give up and proclaim inevitability. For each person who can recognize evil without bias is a step in the right direction for all of us.

[obfuscator]

 

Silly question

 

The world is like this because history has tainted it beyond repair, but that doesn't mean we should just ideologically give up and proclaim inevitability. For each person who can recognize evil without bias is a step in the right direction for all of us.

 

I don't understand what you're getting at. Are you suggesting that there is a peaceful solution for absolutely every human conflict?

 

Make no mistake; I wish there was. But there isn't.

[Cacmypants]

 

Silly question

 

The world is like this because history has tainted it beyond repair, but that doesn't mean we should just ideologically give up and proclaim inevitability. For each person who can recognize evil without bias is a step in the right direction for all of us.

 

I don't understand what you're getting at. Are you suggesting that there is a peaceful solution for absolutely every human conflict?

 

Make no mistake; I wish there was. But there isn't.

 

Of course, the mind-set of 6 billion+ people cannot be changed overnight. Humanity may not be mature enough to resolve all problems peacefully at this time, but that doesn't mean we shouldn't work towards it.

[obfuscator]

 

Silly question

 

The world is like this because history has tainted it beyond repair, but that doesn't mean we should just ideologically give up and proclaim inevitability. For each person who can recognize evil without bias is a step in the right direction for all of us.

 

I don't understand what you're getting at. Are you suggesting that there is a peaceful solution for absolutely every human conflict?

 

Make no mistake; I wish there was. But there isn't.

 

Of course, the mind-set of 6 billion+ people cannot be changed overnight. Humanity may not be mature enough to resolve all problems peacefully at this time, but that doesn't mean we shouldn't work towards it.

 

And we do. But you will never change everyone's mindset. It's impossible. And even while attempting to change mindsets, situations will arise where violence is needed, and history has shown that.

[Giordano]

 

Silly question

 

The world is like this because history has tainted it beyond repair, but that doesn't mean we should just ideologically give up and proclaim inevitability. For each person who can recognize evil without bias is a step in the right direction for all of us.

 

I don't understand what you're getting at. Are you suggesting that there is a peaceful solution for absolutely every human conflict?

 

Make no mistake; I wish there was. But there isn't.

 

Of course, the mind-set of 6 billion+ people cannot be changed overnight. Humanity may not be mature enough to resolve all problems peacefully at this time, but that doesn't mean we shouldn't work towards it.

Patience man! We are so quick to say we're not improving anything, but look at history. It's better to live now than 200 years ago, it was better to live 200 years ago than to live 400 years ago, etc.

[Cacmypants]

 

Silly question

 

The world is like this because history has tainted it beyond repair, but that doesn't mean we should just ideologically give up and proclaim inevitability. For each person who can recognize evil without bias is a step in the right direction for all of us.

 

I don't understand what you're getting at. Are you suggesting that there is a peaceful solution for absolutely every human conflict?

 

Make no mistake; I wish there was. But there isn't.

 

Of course, the mind-set of 6 billion+ people cannot be changed overnight. Humanity may not be mature enough to resolve all problems peacefully at this time, but that doesn't mean we shouldn't work towards it.

 

And we do. But you will never change everyone's mindset. It's impossible. And even while attempting to change mindsets, situations will arise where violence is needed, and history has shown that.

 

I agree that it's too difficult to alter an adult mind, this is a change that has to occur slowly over many generations without any negative influences in between.

 

History shouldn't be used to justify violence, the whole point is that we should learn from these mistakes, not repeat them. Where has the violence of the past got us exactly? Right where we are now.

[demby123]

 

Silly question

 

The world is like this because history has tainted it beyond repair, but that doesn't mean we should just ideologically give up and proclaim inevitability. For each person who can recognize evil without bias is a step in the right direction for all of us.

 

I don't understand what you're getting at. Are you suggesting that there is a peaceful solution for absolutely every human conflict?

 

Make no mistake; I wish there was. But there isn't.

 

Of course, the mind-set of 6 billion+ people cannot be changed overnight. Humanity may not be mature enough to resolve all problems peacefully at this time, but that doesn't mean we shouldn't work towards it.

But if we resolve our problems peacefully, how will we control the population?

[obfuscator]

 

I agree that it's too difficult to alter an adult mind, this is a change that has to occur slowly over many generations without any negative influences in between.

 

History shouldn't be used to justify violence, the whole point is that we should learn from these mistakes, not repeat them. Where has the violence of the past got us exactly? Right where we are now.

 

History has taught us exactly what I'm saying: That much violence is mindless and serves no good purpose, and that some violence is necessary and the right course.

[Dietrich]

 

9/11 caused 3000 CIVILIAN casualty. Hence celebrating 9/11 is celebrating the death of CIVILIANS.

 

Celebrating the death of OSAMA is celebrating the death of a TERRORIST/FREEDOM FIGHTER.

 

i tried to bold and cap for emphasis just to help you understand

 

Your snide/condescending tone aside, the situation is not nearly that simple.

 

Do you truly believe that either side makes much of a distinction between armed combatants and civilians? After 9/11, Middle Easterners weren't necessarily celebrating the deaths of American civilians, so much as the deaths of Americans in general. The same applies to Americans, who typically don't even blink an eye at the fact that civilians in the Middle East are killed and detained virtually every day; such deaths are almost always dismissed as "collateral damage", and innocent detainees are just as easily written off as "potential terrorists/terrorist sympathisers". Many, many Americans just don't give a damn about the casualties of the war, and so they're just as bad as the Middle Easterners in that respect. After all, just how long has Gitmo remained operational despite immense international pressure for it to be shut down and the inmates released or charged and brought before a court? I even doubt that Gitmo is the only such unlawful detention facility that the US has running; I'd be willing to bet that there are others which are even worse, to be honest.

 

To summarise, Americans like to think that they're on some moral high-ground in this conflict - what basically amounts to a cultural war. However, the truth of the matter is that they're little better than those they so desperately and hypocritically vilify. The rampant racism I see on a nearly daily basis confirms this, and I'm sure you've seen it as well. The number of self-righteous Americans I've seen spewing hate about "rag/towel-heads" and "sand-[racist term]s" and demanding the deaths of all Muslims (despite the facts that those responsible for 9/11 only make up a small, radical part of the Muslim population, and that not all Middle Easterners are Muslim) is simply sickening. As I said before, neither side is innocent.

 

You made a point of mentioning that thousands of innocent people died in 9/11, but I would like to ask you... just how many innocent Middle Easterners have died since the start of this War on Terror 10 years ago? And yes, I can see that you're trying to imply that celebrating bin Laden's death is "acceptable" because he is "more guilty" than others who have died in this war, and perhaps you have a point there. As I said in an earlier post, I DO believe that his death is probably for the best, but that doesn't mean that we should be celebrating. Any loss of life is regrettable, and it's particularly disgusting when people revel in it like savages while being morally outraged when the other side does the same.

 

I would still like to know how I was "backpedalling" earlier, by the way.

[Kriegsmier]

 

Also this really does nothing. Sure osama is finally dead. Now his successor will probably be the one to plan something even worse against the US in retaliation.

 

 

Yes, there will be a successor, but Osama, as a founding figure of Al-Queda, and the person who took direct responsibility for the attacks, was extremely important to his people. Think of it as the combined George Washington, Abraham Lincoln, and Gandhi all being killed. So long as he was alive, they would always have him to rally behind, and would never truly have the fight knocked out of them. I believe that killing Bin Laden won't end the war, but you can't end the war without killing Bin Laden.

 

This. He was also a fighter in the war against the soviets, so he was held in high regards compared to his terrorist counterparts. No one can replace bin laden, everyone else are pawns compared to him. Will someone try? Of course, but it won't have the same effect. I'm sure the SEALS that raided the house cleared it very good for intel. He was living at the mansion with couriers of Al Queda, meaning he had to know locations of other top leaders to send messages to them since he didn't have internet or phones. This could only be the start of something bigger.

 

For the record, I actually hope Obama DOESN'T get re-elected...but thats another issue.

[Slayer_Jesse]

my reaction:

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rHJoj9IqeKg

 

that is all.

[Rainy_Day]

lol backpedal

 

using your "logic", cheering osama's death is comparable to cheering american soldiers' deaths. not civilians.

 

 

... How am I backpedalling? I'm not entirely sure that you know what it means, to be honest. :mellow:

 

And I don't understand whatever point you're trying to make. Both sides have killed soldiers AND civilians, and I was saying that I felt a little disgusted that Americans were celebrating bin Laden's death, even though they had previously decried the Middle Easterners who had celebrated the death of Westerners.

 

9/11 caused 3000 CIVILIAN casualty. Hence celebrating 9/11 is celebrating the death of CIVILIANS.

 

Celebrating the death of OSAMA is celebrating the death of a TERRORIST/FREEDOM FIGHTER.

 

i tried to bold and cap for emphasis just to help you understand

 

To your attitude I post the following quote:

"A monster is one who takes pleasure in the death of his enemies. A monster is dead. Take great care in how you respond to that news."

[Grogthurk]

USA USA USA!

[RpgGamer]

Nice timing by Obama with the birth certificate/Bin Laden killed one-two punch! Someone's up for reelection.

ROFL at

 

8.5% - 9.2% unemployment since January of 2009,

a real inflation rate of about 10%,

the dollar losing 24% of its value to the looney and 15% of its value to the euro since 2009,

2.3% of all US homes receiving foreclosure notices in 2010,

$4.00+ gas before summer, and a predicted $5-6 / gallon gasoline,

a $14.3 trillion dollar debt with a projected $1.5 trillion dollar deficit this year,

Troops still in Afghanistan, Iraq, and now fighting a non-war in Libya.

 

But don't worry, he killed Osama Bin Laden.

 

Your boy Obama is winning achievements with tiger blood.

:twss: :thumbup:

 

I suppose you believe world war 2 was Franklin Delano Roosevelt's fault, too. Using your logic of chronologized occurrences coincidentally being congruent to whomever the figurehead of power is in that window of time.

 

 

--

 

Osama really shouldn't have used his real address on the playstation network.

 

[Dheginsea]

I was reading the times article on this and it said his dad had over 50 kids :shock:. And that he was kinda the son of a slave... Guy had an interesting past.

 

Anyway, I thinks its a good thing that he is finally dead, though killing anybody for any reason isn't really something I would completely approve of (please don't go into the selfdefence killings etc on this statement guys).

 

 

 

Osama really shouldn't have used his real address on the playstation network.

 

i laughed when i saw that