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Refer a Friend Programme - 18 Aug 2011


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A post by Mod Mat K in response to the RAF(B) program:

 

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Quick find code: 254-255-115-63134042; Page 4, Post 7

And yet they consider items that give a fraction of that bonus to be worthwhile. What.

I think he meant to say:

...RWT companies create the bots, pay membership for their thousands of P2P bots, bot the game at the expense of players and keep the cash... But we still get their subscription money.

 

Funny how they left that part out. Musta forgot I guess.

 

Why do they continue to pretend that botting does anything but make their wallets swell?

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A post by Mod Mat K in response to the RAF(B) program:

 

Jagex_Admits_to_RWTing.png

Quick find code: 254-255-115-63134042; Page 4, Post 7

 

Ok, let me just explain something to you. You're not supposed to pay for the membership, your friend is, because you referred him.

 

You're taking this way too far, I don't see how this negatively affects the game. It just gives you some bonus xp, that's it. You're all taking this way out of proportion.

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A post by Mod Mat K in response to the RAF(B) program:

 

Jagex_Admits_to_RWTing.png

Quick find code: 254-255-115-63134042; Page 4, Post 7

 

Ok, let me just explain something to you. You're not supposed to pay for the membership, your friend is, because you referred him.

 

You're taking this way too far, I don't see how this negatively affects the game. It just gives you some bonus xp, that's it. You're all taking this way out of proportion.

 

You can refer yourself with RAF, too. That's at least one way that it negatively effects the game. The other seventeen pages will provide more reasons, I'm sure.

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A post by Mod Mat K in response to the RAF(B) program:

 

Jagex_Admits_to_RWTing.png

Quick find code: 254-255-115-63134042; Page 4, Post 7

 

Ok, let me just explain something to you. You're not supposed to pay for the membership, your friend is, because you referred him.

 

You're taking this way too far, I don't see how this negatively affects the game. It just gives you some bonus xp, that's it. You're all taking this way out of proportion.

 

You can refer yourself with RAF, too. That's at least one way that it negatively effects the game. The other seventeen pages will provide more reasons, I'm sure.

 

How does referring yourself affect the game negatively? You're still not buying XP, you're just buying a bonus for XP. And, it goes to the devolopment of the game, which I'd say, affects the game positively. Plus, it's not like you HAVE to refer yourself. If you don't want to, don't. If you're playing a game for competition with everyone, you're playing it for a wrong reason.

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"Selling 1 month membership codes, 15m.

 

the money goes to jagex so its OK"

 

Quote from RSOF, this would actually save money if you were going to spend 150m+ on training in that week. Jagex would still receive the same amount of money from players and this guy would sell the GP for a profit too. I'd like to see Jagex pick a fault with this one.

A money pouch would be cool. So would a remote price checker. But honestly I'm thinking an insta-Jcoins-market. LOW ON PRAYER AND DONT LIKE XP WASTE?! BUY AN ULTRA PRAYER RESTORE POTION INSTANTLY FOR JUST 75 CENTS! STAY AT BANDOS ALL DAY/AS LONG YOU HAVE MONEY!

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"We are more than confident in delivering a free trade game with practically no bots"

 

wat

 

 

Sounds totally realistic. Should be any day now.

 

 

"The biggest myth is that we make money from bots. This isn't true." <-- Page 128

 

"I suppose the ultimate aim is for the membership of the bots to pay for the team taking them out and keep them to such a low level that it doesnt inhibit legitimate players." <--- Page 192

 

 

Angry beyond words...

 

What an absolute waste of space of a JMod. It is a complete contradiction in terms.

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"We are more than confident in delivering a free trade game with practically no bots"

 

wat

 

 

Sounds totally realistic. Should be any day now.

 

 

"The biggest myth is that we make money from bots. This isn't true." <-- Page 128

 

"I suppose the ultimate aim is for the membership of the bots to pay for the team taking them out and keep them to such a low level that it doesnt inhibit legitimate players." <--- Page 192

 

 

Angry beyond words...

 

What an absolute waste of space of a JMod. It is a complete contradiction in terms.

I don't know why, but that quote made me laugh.

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How does referring yourself affect the game negatively? You're still not buying XP, you're just buying a bonus for XP. And, it goes to the devolopment of the game, which I'd say, affects the game positively. Plus, it's not like you HAVE to refer yourself. If you don't want to, don't. If you're playing a game for competition with everyone, you're playing it for a wrong reason.

 

1) You're using money (someone's money) to gain an advantage over others through the referral scheme. You're essentially trading $6 for 10% exp boost, and the critical point is that you can do it to yourself.

 

2) You contradict yourself. You're buying bonus exp, which is still buying exp.

 

3) EVERYTHING that Jagex makes goes to the development of RuneScape. If they were doing well with their game, they'd be making more money off of normal subscriptions, and they wouldn't have to pull this B.S.

 

4) Name a game that you don't play for competition with everyone. Most every MMO does, at least...

 

[EDIT]]

 

"We are more than confident in delivering a free trade game with practically no bots"

 

wat

 

 

Sounds totally realistic. Should be any day now.

 

 

"The biggest myth is that we make money from bots. This isn't true." <-- Page 128

 

"I suppose the ultimate aim is for the membership of the bots to pay for the team taking them out and keep them to such a low level that it doesn't inhibit legitimate players." <--- Page 192

 

 

Angry beyond words...

 

What an absolute waste of space of a JMod. It is a complete contradiction in terms.

 

There isn't any word to convey the amount of disappointment in Jagex's stance against bots. They've definitely been lying to themselves and their constituents. I wonder if the game has a future past next year.

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If you're playing a game for competition with everyone, you're playing it for a wrong reason.

Doesn't that kind of defeat the purpose of... I don't know... Every game on the planet?

 

Every MMO at least.

 

Sort of.

 

Nah, I'd say every game on the planet. (This post isn't directly at you, Kimberly, or Wicked, but Firedruid and the point he made.)

 

How many popular video games or online games do you know of that don't have some sort of leaderboard or highscores? If you look on sites like Miniclip or Addictinggames, every game has a highscores feature or something similar.

 

Yes, you play games for fun. But no matter how much you play it for "fun", at some point it will get competitive. I can't think of a single example where a game started out just for fun, and stayed just for fun for its entire lifetime, that also wasn't a complete failure or otherwise totally unknown.

 

I doubt when James Naismith invented a new game for his Physical Education students to play during the winter, he intended to create an internationally recognized Olympic sport that draws millions of viewers and thousands of competitors of all age levels. Yet today we have basketball that's just that, if not even greater. It's the simple fact that some people play games (sports included as a form of game) competitively because they enjoy playing it competitively. True, some may be in it because they simply think the game is fun, and yeah I'm not going to deny that there are those people who play just because they want to reap the rewards. But if you mean to tell me that every member of a varsity sports team is playing for the wrong reason, I'm going to have to flat out disagree.

 

[hide=Aside]

I know I'm drawing a comparison between games and sports, which may not be entirely a good comparison to make. However they are both essentially the same thing. Both are designed for "fun" on a very basic scale, but can be taken to very competitive levels. Thus, for the sake of this argument, they fall under the same category, and to say otherwise, although plausible, would forfeit the purpose of this argument.

[/hide]

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"We are more than confident in delivering a free trade game with practically no bots"

 

wat

 

 

Sounds totally realistic. Should be any day now.

 

 

"The biggest myth is that we make money from bots. This isn't true." <-- Page 128

 

"I suppose the ultimate aim is for the membership of the bots to pay for the team taking them out and keep them to such a low level that it doesnt inhibit legitimate players." <--- Page 192

 

 

Angry beyond words...

 

What an absolute waste of space of a JMod. It is a complete contradiction in terms.

I don't know why, but that quote made me laugh.

 

Haha :P

 

Anyways posted this on the botting in RuneScape thread and will also post it here because of prior discussion... Anyways:

 

 

Someone with more skill than me will surely manage to post the entire golden post by Mod Mat K on Page 103 of QFC: 14-15-305-63126133

 

However, here's the part of the post that pertained to me... Jagex don't even have belief that their system to catch bots will ever work - or so is my impression from what he said...

 

 

"Ezkaton - Mod Mat K, I am so so very disappointed in you with regards to the issue of bots. The fact that you openly contradict yourself on the issue is something to be absolutely astounded by....

 

Firstly:

 

"The biggest myth is that we make money from bots. This isn't true." <-- Page 128

 

Then later in that thread you claimed:

 

"We are more than confident in delivering a free trade game with practically no bots" <--- Page 192

 

"I suppose the ultimate aim is for the membership of the bots to pay for the team taking them out and keep them to such a low level that it doesn't inhibit legitimate players." <--- Page 192

 

These contradicting statements have made me angry beyond what words can express.

 

All three statements I made were correct, let me see if i can explain more. Firstly, right now we lose money on bots, plain and simple. As for the second statement, I am in no doubt that the game will never be purely bot free, so there will always be bots around. The ideal solution I can see is that there are so few bots in game that we do not need to spend the resource we currently do on combating bots and if we can reach a point where membership from bots actually covers that cost then all the legitimate players' membership can go to making the game better. Of course, this is under the proviso that the amount of bots is small enough not to impact on legitimate players. I don't know if we'll ever reach that stage, but time will tell."

 

 

This saddens me.

 

 

Hmmmm... Food for thought?

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I didn't really find it that difficult of a concept to understand, they don't contradict one another.

 

We don't make money on bots = We don't profit off of them. What he's saying is that the money that bots pay (legitimately, after the chargebacks for fraudulent credit cards is factored) goes toward their bot busting team. Figure 20k pounds a year in salary for each person on this team (plus a basket of fruit every day per person), and that requires about four thousand bots for every employee, not factoring in other costs. So if this team carries maybe five people, that is a twenty thousand bot requirement, each paying legitimately, not factoring in other costs. Then factor in Jagex's legal attacks on the gold farmers and that number skyrockets.

 

I think the idea is great as long as they can implement it properly, I like the idea of my membership money going purely to developing updates rather than fighting bots.

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I didn't really find it that difficult of a concept to understand, they don't contradict one another.

 

We don't make money on bots = We don't profit off of them. What he's saying is that the money that bots pay (legitimately, after the chargebacks for fraudulent credit cards is factored) goes toward their bot busting team. Figure 20k pounds a year in salary for each person on this team (plus a basket of fruit every day per person), and that requires about four thousand bots for every employee, not factoring in other costs. So if this team carries maybe five people, that is a twenty thousand bot requirement, each paying legitimately, not factoring in other costs. Then factor in Jagex's legal attacks on the gold farmers and that number skyrockets.

 

I think the idea is great as long as they can implement it properly, I like the idea of my membership money going purely to developing updates rather than fighting bots.

 

So we should create more bots to cover the costs of their bot busting team? This is getting us nowhere.

 

Jagex are either a bunch of incompetent game programmers for not controling the botting issue or bad liars in their PR spins. Take your pick, there isn't a 3rd choice.

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Most of the bots use stolen credit cards, so in the end when they are banned, they often have to refund the money which costs more than what they received. Not to mention fines attached. Overall, they don't get a lot of money from bots.

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I didn't really find it that difficult of a concept to understand, they don't contradict one another.

 

We don't make money on bots = We don't profit off of them. What he's saying is that the money that bots pay (legitimately, after the chargebacks for fraudulent credit cards is factored) goes toward their bot busting team. Figure 20k pounds a year in salary for each person on this team (plus a basket of fruit every day per person), and that requires about four thousand bots for every employee, not factoring in other costs. So if this team carries maybe five people, that is a twenty thousand bot requirement, each paying legitimately, not factoring in other costs. Then factor in Jagex's legal attacks on the gold farmers and that number skyrockets.

 

I think the idea is great as long as they can implement it properly, I like the idea of my membership money going purely to developing updates rather than fighting bots.

 

Consider your point though. Basing my calcs off membership and what Jagex have previously stated to give on their vacations page:

 

1 person = ~£21,000 Salary a year.

1 bot = ~£3.50 a month.

 

6000 bots paying £3.50 for 1 month = 1 persons salary.

6000 bots paying £3.50 for 12 months = £252,000

 

Now consider that at any one point in time people have stated that from before and after update figured there are an estimated 20,000 bots online at any one time. Each of them pay £3.50 a month. Each of them, probably for 12 months. That is a total of £840,000 a year.

 

They can employ 40 people a year.

 

Now please don't tell me that they have 40 people + in that one department all attempting to bust bots, because surely between the 40 (apparently) highly intellectual noggins they have there combined they *should* be able to create a system to beat bots? Am I right in thinking that?

 

 

But my calcs are assuming legitimately paying bots, and not factoring in other costs.

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Reacting impulsively and saying what's on your mind feels oh so good.. for a little, until you realize you just started WWIII.


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Most of the bots use stolen credit cards

Prove it. Because my experience tells me otherwise, and I see no reason to believe your statement. If they were using stolen credit cards, most of them would be banned already.

A friend of mine had money issues with Jagex before, and they are not light on the banhammer when they see you have some issue paying.

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Most of the bots use stolen credit cards

Prove it. Because my experience tells me otherwise, and I see no reason to believe your statement. If they were using stolen credit cards, most of them would be banned already.

A friend of mine had money issues with Jagex before, and they are not light on the banhammer when they see you have some issue paying.

 

Credit card payments happen instantly, and you would not believe how much theft happens in the real world.

 

This is quoted directly from Jagex's developer blog before they removed Free Trade.

 

http://www.runescape.com/kbase/guid/diary06

 

On the business side, real-world trading is just part of an even bigger problem. Mod Hobagoly says, "Real-world traders believe they are running legitimate businesses. In some cases, though, it's essentially organised crime." There is a whole industry built up around it exploiting cheap labour and involving illegal activities. The majority of bots that we ban from members have been paid for with stolen credit card numbers.

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Credit card payments happen instantly, and you would not believe how much theft happens in the real world.

 

This is quoted directly from Jagex's developer blog before they removed Free Trade.

 

http://www.runescape.com/kbase/guid/diary06

 

On the business side, real-world trading is just part of an even bigger problem. Mod Hobagoly says, "Real-world traders believe they are running legitimate businesses. In some cases, though, it's essentially organised crime." There is a whole industry built up around it exploiting cheap labour and involving illegal activities. The majority of bots that we ban from members have been paid for with stolen credit card numbers.

It's not 2007 anymore. Jagex has lost even more credibility. Why should I believe anything they say? If they were paying with stolen credit cards, some bots would actually be banned. Seeing as bots aren't being banned, it's safe to assume that they are paying legit money.

In fact, there's no reason for them to use stolen credit cards. Business is more profitable than ever.

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Credit card issues were so 2007.

 

And they're talking about legal fees? Um... For what exactly? The once or twice a decade they take a bot site to court to force them to change their name? Lmao.

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Botting Frost Dragons for ~10-15 hours is enough to but a month of membership, why would they need to steal credit cards any more?

A money pouch would be cool. So would a remote price checker. But honestly I'm thinking an insta-Jcoins-market. LOW ON PRAYER AND DONT LIKE XP WASTE?! BUY AN ULTRA PRAYER RESTORE POTION INSTANTLY FOR JUST 75 CENTS! STAY AT BANDOS ALL DAY/AS LONG YOU HAVE MONEY!

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Botting Frost Dragons for ~10-15 hours is enough to but a month of membership, why would they need to steal credit cards any more?

Because they would lose 10-15 hours worth of money ;)

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Well, if I were working for jagex, I would want to get paid more than $30,000 a year, for one. For two, I can't even come up with an idea for stopping the bots, let alone one that actually works. 40 people? Maybe. But not likely. Bots are incredibly difficult to detect automatically, because I wouldn't want to ban legitimate players either. In game bot busting is effective on a small scale, but they cannot afford to pay people to bot bust 24/7, and even if they could it would still be very improbable to hit every area of the game.

 

The best approaches involve making it unprofitable to RWT, by making gold not necessary. This has issues, because in game players like their gold. Also, creating activities that cannot be paid for, but which are incredibly grind based *cough*Livid Farm*cough*, does not help, as now legitimate players will simply bot that activity.

 

Getting angry when Jagex doesn't have a solution for bots is stupid. Getting angry because Jagex lies about having a solution for bots, is good. They shouldn't keep on telling us they have solutions when they clearly do not. When thousands of players online are bots, (estimated from how many don't come back right after an ingame update...) it is clear that they're sophisticated automation systems do not work. Maybe its because as they said on 2007: "The majority of members bots we banned are from stolen credit cards." is still true, and they are only banning the bots which don't pay them? That makes some sense..

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