Jagex Seizes RWT Domain -- 9/02/11

[Stev]

:-? You'd think they'd be able to hit them for selling property that isn't theirs, unless there's just so many loopholes and ambiguities in that that they have to take this route.

 

My thoughts exactly. Jagex can take down YouTube videos for copyright claims, but can't get people selling their property for profit? O_O

First I'd like to say, they already have the back up domain ready. They have had their customers aware of this dispute between them and Jagex for ages. Not only that, but Jagex has not yet won the case. Their customers know that as soon, if at all, Jagex takes control of the domain, which domain the company will change to. It will not halt that company for more then 10 minutes.

 

Secondly, the company isn't selling property that isn't theirs. They're selling their time and their resources that it took to collect the gold and items. You're technically hiring them and their resources to play RuneScape. Hell, until eBay didn't want it, people could say, "Selling funny joke - Free RuneScape account included!" Loophole.

 

This won't phase G4RS at all.

 

Well, I'm no lawyer, but I don't see your point. If you were hiring them to train your account or for a bot, you could say that...but account and all of its items are property to Jagex, no matter how much time you put into that. You're selling the account or the gold, you're selling Jagex's property. And that's it.

 

 

 

I still don't see why Jagex bothers to sue for copyright infringement regarding the domain name - it's worse than useless. They have a bad chance of winning, in any case it will cost them money for lawyers etc., and the RWTers can just switch to another domain which increases their reputation as they can claim "Jagex can't touch us" basically.

It's simple. Say I decided to RWT. I could just as easily say that I'm not paying them for the gold, but for their time in collecting it. I'm paying them for the 100s of hours it took to collect that 1000M for me, not for the gold itself. I'm also paying for the computers, the bot software, and all the other resources they need upkept to collect that gold. I'm paying them for the time that they're saving me. Just like the joke example, I'm paying them for the service, which just happens to result in my free 1000M. Jagex could not dispute this claim.

 

And to the terms of use arguments... Checking a little box stating that you've read and agree to a game's terms of use is not legally binding. The most that could come of breaking them is that your rights/privleges in that game be taken away.

[n64jive]

I've discussed this with two of my buddies who are currently in Law School. Pretty much they summed it up with digital property rights are very not defined well when it comes to international law. However, the whole "paying for time" loophole would not apply, if within the US for the simple fact that:

 

Jagex does own the digital property and this is acknowledge by our laws.

Jagex owns the process of obtaining these items.

 

To pay someone for the time using Jagex's process would entitle Jagex some portion (possibly the whole amount) of the proceeds.

 

Grant it, this would require Jagex to put the proper documents in place, but that's not very difficult.

[RoswellCrash]

I have these ingenious ideas of how to stop rwt & bots sometimes, then I have a simple solution that circumvents it. It gives me a headache.

 

Only way I can see it being at least cut down is reverting back to removal of free trade & wilderness.

 

One concern is the exponatually growing culture to bot for achievement capes and/or gold as a way to make the game easier which IMO equally spoil the game.

 

I'm watching level 138 Players bot agility courses, a level 131 killing blue dragons with 9 other bots (granted probably a hacked account)

 

I feel my achievement have been cheapened by this, I know I wonder if this maxed combat kid who's calling me a noob has genuinely achieved his levels, so I wonder if others are thinking the same about me.

 

I just feel the changes that have happened have stained the game now, the community I once knew will never be the same as it was pre-achievement cape.

 

But I'm a gamer, I'll adapt just seems sad.

[Blyaunte]

Perhaps some enlightenment on the issue would be of assistance here -- I strongly suggest reading: Selling Wine Without Bottles, by John Perry Barlow.

 

:shades:

[RoswellCrash]

Perhaps some enlightenment on the issue would be of assistance here -- I strongly suggest reading: Selling Wine Without Bottles, by John Perry Barlow.

 

:shades:

 

Is there a film, I don't have the intellectuality to get immersed in most books, surprisingly the last book I read & enjoyed was Betrayal at Falador.

[Wouter828]

I'm on the side of the RWTers on this one. Main reason for this being that I too think that it is highly likely that kids buying their cash instead of grinding for it themselves, will spend the time saved on the outside world instead of taking their new funds and grinding all buyable skills to heck. Yup, no logic flaws there.

[Nero]

They already have another domain up, so this pretty much does nothing.

[Naraku893]

move domains

 

problem solved

 

jagex wastes more time and money trying to bring it down

[NukeMarine]

Actually the game is offered with the rule that you won't RWT. So any RWTer isn't playing the game as it's offered but is taking something else that isn't offered (but available). I think a court would recognize that player-to-player trading (including donations) is one of the core concepts of a MMORPG, and that it would be unreasonable to expect Jagex to remove it from the game. Short of doing that, nothing can be done to fight RWTing directly in-game, so the court would recognize the need to fine or dissolve or w/e the RWT company for systematically breaching the terms of use.

Yes, I open up a garden with a path that I state must not be walked. I don't block it off or even guard it. However, I ask the tax payers to fund police to capture anyone walking down that path, cause it's against my financial security to block it off myself.

 

Please get my point, Jagex is in it's right to stop real world trading. It's idiotic to think that it should use tax dollars to enforce that concept which is a business decision at most. At the moment, it's taking extreme defense with regards to copyright and trademark. That'll only go so far as pointed out in this thread.

 

TL:DR - Jagex, police thyself.

[Blyaunte]

Perhaps some enlightenment on the issue would be of assistance here -- I strongly suggest reading: Selling Wine Without Bottles, by John Perry Barlow.

 

:shades:

 

Is there a film, I don't have the intellectuality to get immersed in most books, surprisingly the last book I read & enjoyed was Betrayal at Falador.

 

The "crux of the biscuit" can be found in these paragraphs:

 

In Cyberspace, there are not only no national or local boundaries to contain the scene of a crime and determine the method of its prosecution, there are no clear cultural agreements on what a crime might be. Unresolved and basic differences between European and Asian cultural assumptions about intellectual property can only be exacerbated in a region where many transactions are taking place in both hemispheres and yet, somehow, in neither.

 

Notions of property, value, ownership, and the nature of wealth itself are changing more fundamentally than at any time since the Sumerians first poked cuneiform into wet clay and called it stored grain. Only a very few people are aware of the enormity of this shift and fewer of them are lawyers or public officials.

 

Those who do see these changes must prepare responses for the legal and social confusion that will erupt as efforts to protect new forms of property with old methods become more obviously futile, and, as a consequence, more adamant.

 

Point is, in chasing these sites down with the intent of closing them down under the terms of copyright infringement, Jagex is, in essence, trying to swim upstream. They're trying to assess old-style property rights to new-style "property" which, in the long run, isn't likely to have much effect and will serve no purpose.

 

Basically, they're throwing money down the toilet on legal fees in a legal battle that, even if they do manage to set a new precedent -- which is doubtful -- and somehow manage to "win" the claim to the exclusivity of Runescape gold as their own intellectual property, any such victory is going to be short-lived, at best, because within 10-15 minutes, that said infringing operation, that they managed to shut down through legality, is going to re-start operations in some other jurisdiction.

[Blyaunte]

Actually the game is offered with the rule that you won't RWT. So any RWTer isn't playing the game as it's offered but is taking something else that isn't offered (but available). I think a court would recognize that player-to-player trading (including donations) is one of the core concepts of a MMORPG, and that it would be unreasonable to expect Jagex to remove it from the game. Short of doing that, nothing can be done to fight RWTing directly in-game, so the court would recognize the need to fine or dissolve or w/e the RWT company for systematically breaching the terms of use.

 

Problem is -- are Jagex's "rules" for Runescape legally enforceable? :rolleyes:

[Wessan]

Good.

[Mercifull]

Actually the game is offered with the rule that you won't RWT. So any RWTer isn't playing the game as it's offered but is taking something else that isn't offered (but available). I think a court would recognize that player-to-player trading (including donations) is one of the core concepts of a MMORPG, and that it would be unreasonable to expect Jagex to remove it from the game. Short of doing that, nothing can be done to fight RWTing directly in-game, so the court would recognize the need to fine or dissolve or w/e the RWT company for systematically breaching the terms of use.

 

Problem is -- are Jagex's "rules" for Runescape legally enforceable? :rolleyes:

Yes. http://technology.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/tech_and_web/gadgets_and_gaming/virtual_worlds/article6937026.ece

[n64jive]

Meh, The article outlines that these players were hacked. This violates one of many cyber-crimes usually encapsulated under "misuse of a computer", however there are different clauses. There is a big difference between obtaining information on another ones account through illegal means and selling virtual currency.

 

TLDR: I believe Mercifull is comparing apples to oranges.

[Blyaunte]

Actually the game is offered with the rule that you won't RWT. So any RWTer isn't playing the game as it's offered but is taking something else that isn't offered (but available). I think a court would recognize that player-to-player trading (including donations) is one of the core concepts of a MMORPG, and that it would be unreasonable to expect Jagex to remove it from the game. Short of doing that, nothing can be done to fight RWTing directly in-game, so the court would recognize the need to fine or dissolve or w/e the RWT company for systematically breaching the terms of use.

 

Problem is -- are Jagex's "rules" for Runescape legally enforceable? :rolleyes:

Yes. http://technology.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/tech_and_web/gadgets_and_gaming/virtual_worlds/article6937026.ece

Which Jagex rule did he break, and how is this rule being enforced by the laws of Great Britain? :rolleyes:

[obfuscator]

Actually the game is offered with the rule that you won't RWT. So any RWTer isn't playing the game as it's offered but is taking something else that isn't offered (but available). I think a court would recognize that player-to-player trading (including donations) is one of the core concepts of a MMORPG, and that it would be unreasonable to expect Jagex to remove it from the game. Short of doing that, nothing can be done to fight RWTing directly in-game, so the court would recognize the need to fine or dissolve or w/e the RWT company for systematically breaching the terms of use.

 

Problem is -- are Jagex's "rules" for Runescape legally enforceable? :rolleyes:

Yes. http://technology.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/tech_and_web/gadgets_and_gaming/virtual_worlds/article6937026.ece

Which Jagex rule did he break, and how is this rule being enforced by the laws of Great Britain? :rolleyes:

It should be in the TOS, that's how they have any kind of jurisdication - violating the TOS can be a criminal offence pretty much anywhere iirc.

[Blyaunte]

Actually the game is offered with the rule that you won't RWT. So any RWTer isn't playing the game as it's offered but is taking something else that isn't offered (but available). I think a court would recognize that player-to-player trading (including donations) is one of the core concepts of a MMORPG, and that it would be unreasonable to expect Jagex to remove it from the game. Short of doing that, nothing can be done to fight RWTing directly in-game, so the court would recognize the need to fine or dissolve or w/e the RWT company for systematically breaching the terms of use.

 

Problem is -- are Jagex's "rules" for Runescape legally enforceable? :rolleyes:

Yes. http://technology.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/tech_and_web/gadgets_and_gaming/virtual_worlds/article6937026.ece

Which Jagex rule did he break, and how is this rule being enforced by the laws of Great Britain? :rolleyes:

It should be in the TOS, that's how they have any kind of jurisdication - violating the TOS can be a criminal offence pretty much anywhere iirc.

 

"Terms of Service" don't a legal contract make. This is where these conversation often break down. Jagex's rules aren't "laws" -- they're rules within the gaming environment. They're not legally enforceable under the Criminal Code or the Rules of Civil Procedure of any jurisdiction.

 

Jagex can enforce their rules by, [sarcasm]oh I don't know, perhaps BANNING people who break their rules[/sarcasm] -- which, strangely enough, they're not doing -- but they cannot enforce their rules by having people arrested for account sharing or real world trading.

[highlanders]

It's incredible how no matter how many times it is explained people keep thinking ToS are laws.

 

You enter a random website. They ask you to accept terms of service. Of course you don't read them and click "Yes". Later you discover the ToS says:

"By clicking yes you accept that you are obligated to jump off to your death on the nearest available bridge within 24 hours."

Oops! Looks like you're going to have to jump off a bridge, after all that is the law. Not.

[Sly_Wizard]

It's incredible how no matter how many times it is explained people keep thinking ToS are laws.

 

You enter a random website. They ask you to accept terms of service. Of course you don't read them and click "Yes". Later you discover the ToS says:

"By clicking yes you accept that you are obligated to jump off to your death on the nearest available bridge within 24 hours."

Oops! Looks like you're going to have to jump off a bridge, after all that is the law. Not.

 

This is a non-sequitur. No, something ridiculous like jumping off a bridge to your death in 24 hours isn't going to be enforced. In fact, such an agreement wouldn't be legally binding anywhere under any circumstance. It's simply not reasonable. As it is, no one has said that ToS are themselves laws. What's been said is that the ToS is legally binding. Before you create your Runescape account, you agree to abide by Jagex's terms and conditions. This is clearly stated on the website.

 

Anyway, here are a few cases on the subject. It seems to me that Jagex has some ground to stand on.

[Makoto_the_Phoenix]

So Jagex went after a domain that engaged in RWT.

 

 

What else is new? What would this gain? All it would do is slightly delay the company from selling their product for a little while longer. It's really not a big deal, and more resources were wasted in getting them to remove the "RS" out of their URL than implementing trade restrictions back in '07.

 

I also have to laugh at the WoW settlement earlier. No company is going to be able to shill out that kind of cash. Blizzard would never be able to fully collect.

 

Hopefully Jagex doesn't try to go down that road. I mean, you can spend millions in lawsuits to come up with a settlement for...a net loss. But Jagex could potentially save face and millions and just implement something that actually works.

[Robert_R]

So basically jagex took the domain name apparently not realizing the company can just change their domain name and keep going.

[RU_Insane]

So basically jagex took the domain name apparently not realizing the company can just change their domain name and keep going.

 

Well, that's partly right. They do realize that companies can switch domains. I think they think that we don't have a clue about their BS. Keep in mind, domain seizures are actually what Jagex is referring to when they say they're taking "action against RWT companies". They really should stop giving such vague answers. It's easy to justify yourself if you say you're only taking "action" against them. The question is, what kind of action, how soon, how frequent? How dedicated are you to actually solving the problem, and not attacking the symptoms of it? Jagex likes to skirt their way around these questions by leaving as many details as blank as possible. And if they do realize that the majority sees through their BS, I guess they seriously don't care anymore and are taking any last steps (the sex offender fiasco, this) to preserve the final remnants of their tattered gaming image whilst simultaneously milking the cash cow for all it has left. That said, none of what I just said should be a surprise to anyone. What I want to know is, why would Jagex pay tens of thousands, if not hundreds of thousands, in legal fees to pursue RWT this way when it's obviously ineffective?

[Makoto_the_Phoenix]

So basically jagex took the domain name apparently not realizing the company can just change their domain name and keep going.

 

Well, that's partly right. They do realize that companies can switch domains. I think they think that we don't have a clue about their BS. Keep in mind, domain seizures are actually what Jagex is referring to when they say they're taking "action against RWT companies". They really should stop giving such vague answers. It's easy to justify yourself if you say you're only taking "action" against them. The question is, what kind of action, how soon, how frequent? How dedicated are you to actually solving the problem, and not attacking the symptoms of it? Jagex likes to skirt their way around these questions by leaving as many details as blank as possible. And if they do realize that the majority sees through their BS, I guess they seriously don't care anymore and are taking any last steps (the sex offender fiasco, this) to preserve the final remnants of their tattered gaming image whilst simultaneously milking the cash cow for all it has left. That said, none of what I just said should be a surprise to anyone. What I want to know is, why would Jagex pay tens of thousands, if not hundreds of thousands, in legal fees to pursue RWT this way when it's obviously ineffective?

 

Believe it or not, news posts declaring victory or progress against RWT/botting - regardless of how hollow or meaningless the actual victory is - scores a major PR victory.

 

Although, considering that the one major case has been in the courts since about 2009, coupled with the fact(s) that Jagex has remained tight-lipped about their fight against bots, morale in the community is low, and botting numbers, along with RWT advertisements, have reached an all-time high, most of the community is pretty much done with the silly masquerade.

[Assume Nothing]

This thread is the reason why the gamer's confidence in JaGex is about as low as an emo chick's confidence about asking a guy out. It's disappointing how unwinnable this war is. Why can't they tackle the problem, instead of it's symptoms? A real answer from a real Jmod would be nice...

[Sona]

Has it occurred to anyone that bots and gold-selling websites are rampant may be due to the game itself? Runescape encourages, for the lack of a better term, its players to work like little maniac-depressive dwarven miners towards the next "achievement" or the next "cape." With very few exceptions (some of the quests, for instance), all we do is repetitively grind on one thing again and again, waiting to hit the next stage for... Most of us don't even know what. At least other MMOs give you some flashy effects and make the thing pretty while you're going about doing it.

 

This, coupled with the steep "learning curve" (c'mon. You can harken back to your days where hill giants were a challenge) and the general behavior of the community (mostly school-aged kids, so what do you expect?) makes RS one of the best breeding grounds for RWT. Because there is virtually no other aspect to the game except for achievements, and because the social element is barely/nonexistent (look at the thousands of threads whining about clans on the official forums, for example), RS has the greatest appeal to one kind of player: the type whose vocabulary rarely extends beyond "noob", "pwned", and "omg".

 

Other games have microtransctions that allows these type of achievement-oriented players a leg-up. Jagex had good intentions. They wanted everyone to stand on equal footing, and they don't want people to simply buy their way to level 2938428324. However, what we see is the opposite. People buy gold because they can't be bothered/do not wish to invest in the time/wants a leg up against the other "noob" in [whatever the highest gear is today.]

 

So they buy gold. As simple as that. At this point, though, bots and RWT are entrenched well enough to make switching models of any kind unfeasible, so there isn't much they could do short of reinventing the wheel altogether.