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What exactly is difficult to master about RS combat?

Was referring to dangerous PvP and PK'ing. It was very easy to quickly detect which opponents actually knew how to fight and which ones didn't based on their decision-making whilst in combat.

 

Bad PK'ers...

-depended on rushing, tagging, and PJing for kills

-got killed by rushers, taggers, and PJers

-would choose to safe instead of spec if both fighters are low hp (doesn't apply for tanks)

-wouldn't use terrain to their advantage (using trees and wilderness signs as safespots for kiting or healing without taking additional damage)

-didn't hybrid/tribrid (different armor styles counts as hybridding)

-didn't know phoenix necklaces, pizzas, tuna taters, and brews exist

 

I'd also argue that PK'ing with less than 45 defense after 2006 is another sign that they don't know what they're doing but there were still a few low def pures kicking ass around that time. It's just that by then, the only people who 1 def pures could consistently kill were other 1 def pures or extremely unskilled people w/ defense. After armor got atrength bonuses and natural selection weeded out the people who would wander into the wild skulled with their bank and everyone hopped on the 1 def bandwagon, 1 def pures quickly became obsolete

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What exactly is difficult to master about RS combat?

Well, if you want to try and get any drops in FFA pvm against anyone who knows how to use abilities for max DPS...

 

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What exactly is difficult to master about RS combat?

Was referring to dangerous PvP and PK'ing. It was very easy to quickly detect which opponents actually knew how to fight and which ones didn't based on their decision-making whilst in combat.

 

Bad PK'ers...

-depended on rushing, tagging, and PJing for kills

-got killed by rushers, taggers, and PJers

-would choose to safe instead of spec if both fighters are low hp (doesn't apply for tanks)

-wouldn't use terrain to their advantage (using trees and wilderness signs as safespots for kiting or healing without taking additional damage)

-didn't hybrid/tribrid (different armor styles counts as hybridding)

-didn't know phoenix necklaces, pizzas, tuna taters, and brews exist

 

I'd also argue that PK'ing with less than 45 defense after 2006 is another sign that they don't know what they're doing but there were still a few low def pures kicking ass around that time. It's just that by then, the only people who 1 def pures could consistently kill were other 1 def pures or extremely unskilled people w/ defense. After armor got atrength bonuses and natural selection weeded out the people who would wander into the wild skulled with their bank and everyone hopped on the 1 def bandwagon, 1 def pures quickly became obsolete

 

People with 1 defence pures often made the accounts solely to fight other 1 defence pures and would refuse to even fight anyone with defence, was just a different faster combat mode.

 

Not sure how I can defend the levels of skill it to took to pk with an iron titan at level 35 though. 

 

 

And in general to people saying the old combat took no skill, high risk pk fights (like risking 50m++) were pretty skill based, I used to generally avoided them or expect to lose just because I staked rather than pk'd. Nothing at all similar exists in the game now. And this was just for edgeville fights, hybrid high risk was even more intense.

[spoiler=found an old video of high risk fighting]

 

 

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I think the main thing eoc was missing is wasd movement. That would be the largest factor in improving combat. Right now their version of hard fights is implementing movement. If they put in wasd movement you could move to a more skill based fighting style where abilities mattered more then just for the best dps.

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If wasd movement was to work, it must either have a fixed camera that cannot be rotated, or one that has fixed orientation with respect to your character (EG over the shoulder, over the head, chase cam, etc), or else wasd will simply confuse the hell out of ordinary players who are not used to wasd movements.

 

Eitherway, my problem with wasd movement is that wasd movement tends to work better for 'smooth' games (like WOW where you can move anywhere you want) rather than 'stutter' games (ie ones that fixes your movement into grids, where you must move one grid into the next), not to mention the camera sudden turns will feel odd at best, nauseating at worst.

 

My take on Legacy is that while it changes game play for those who crave pre-eoc combat, but don't want to play 2007, is that the two systems of combat, especially when you take post eoc bosses into account, are FAR too different from each other to integrate them into one single gameplay. EG taunting in KK would not work unless you completely change the mechanics of how it targets, just for the legacy players. Giving them abilities to deal with this particular issue completely and utterly defeats the purpose of the legacy mode in the first place.

 

It would have been far easier, and yield better results, by introducing servers that has pre-eoc combat and is completely seperate from eoc servers, while bosses that are designed exclusively for eoc remains on eoc servers. It would also take less effort on jagex's part since it would at least only involve recycling old code and not having to integrate the two different combat systems onto the same server (and avoiding the dreaded job of balancing the two).

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Yeah trying to implement wasd movement in to a game built around a grid mechanic and that's never had that movement style is fraught with more issues than benefits for anyone but the players who happen to be good at that sort of game.

 

Personally wasd would be an awful move to make from my perspective. Trying to do wasd movement and clicking/using mouse at the same time and using ability hot keys is just not a play style I'm very good at, especially not when I mostly play on a laptop trackpad making wasd+mouse a plain pita regardless of talent. Not to mention camera issues - if it was fixed perspective it'd be a pita to access things and view things in the way we are accustomed too, plus fixed cameras are a nightmare in terms of getting stuck and clipping and such. If it was mouse controlled my god just kill me now - I don't play games with that sort of camera on pc for one very simple reason, like many the combination of the closer screen and quick movements and instability of the camera make me get headaches and motion sickness. Do it on a console game, not a problem, but on a pc screen I'll have my head under a pillow trying to nap til I don't feel like lunch is about to re-appear before I achieve anything.

 

Plus it just seems like a crazy move to make: Half the whiners and quitters and ranters related to eoc hated it because it changed too much. Swapping from point and click to wasd would be a far far far bigger change, not only in terms of recoding fundamentals of the game engine, but also in terms of the end user experience (and it'd be all end user experience regardless of interest in combat).

 

I really wish Jagex wouldn't be so flailing like a fish outta water with combat things though - the beta of improvements is barely underway and many of those improvements directly fix/alter many issues that make people want a legacy mode (eg special attacks, how momentum works, reduced buttonmashing via revolution) and this is only what they've done already not whatever else they are going to look at. Is it not utterly moronic to be developing fixes that may very well solve the issue but at the exact same time be offering to dev an entirely different solution? Could we not get the upgrades out and see how they fair and then, if needs be, address a legacy mode concept? To me this just feels like they've got a canvas and started to draw a cat with their right hand, thne their left hand has grabbed a pen and started working on a giraffe on the other side of the canvas where the only outcome can be the two collide in the middle and nothing quite matches up and nothing can be finished to the right standard so instead of two lovely pictures you end up with one mess.

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They already said wasd movement was possible and decreasing the grid size was possible even up to 10x its current size.that would be a great change to be honest.



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They already said wasd movement was possible and decreasing the grid size was possible even up to 10x its current size.that would be a great change to be honest.

 

They also said html5 engine would be launching in July last year and offer a smoother, better playing experience for everyone...it's now 7 months down the line html beta has been sitting gathering dust for months and most people can barely get it to load let alone be playable.

I'd take anything they said as 'possible' in relation to the big rs3/html5 thing with a rather large pinch of salt at this point.

 

Besides just because it is possible doesn't mean it will be done or that it'd be a good idea to do it in terms of dev cost vs returns.

That said I wouldn't mind it being an option if they could muster it, as long as it was just that - an option - not something you have to use to be competitive in combat as I certainly would not be using it.

Shrinking the grid to give the illusion of smoother/free movement wouldn't be bad either but some how I can see them being reluctant to actually do it - It'd require every single piece of terrain and object to have its dimensions redefined, plus recoding of movement, and click areas, clue scroll co-ordinate mechanics would need a big overhaul too, as would force walk/blocked tiles to smooth off edges, as well as any dig in place x things from quests etc.

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Why would you break down RS' unique points in favour of even more generic MMORPG elements?

 

I have a fairly old suggestion for Agility and movement here, including WASD:

7. Agility. Agility has few benefits, especially at higher levels, and it takes a long time to train. People have wanted WASD movement in RuneScape for a long time. How do these tie together? They are both about movement. And since the action bar and the New Interface System have radically changed input with their customizable hotkeys, it’s possible to tie WASD and hotkey movement quite nicely into Agility. Essentially, all you need is a movement pattern - a manoeuvre - and a hotkey to run that pattern.

 

Imagine you have a customizable obstacle course shaped like a clan battlefield. To learn a manoeuvre, you need to design a course that incorporates it and repeat it a certain number of times, say twice for each level you need to learn a certain manoeuvre. The level requirement depends on the length of the path, the complexity of the path and the speed you travel at - running it doesn’t cost extra, but skipping squares like the Surge ability requires greater Agility. For example:

  • Level required to learn manoeuvre = 4 (number of squares travelled + ticks waited) + 20 (number of changes of direction + number of squares jumped)
This is plain regular movement, not specifically combat-related, but very usable in combat. The movement can be absolute, using the compass for directions, or relative, using character facing as guide. You can also choose between walking, running and ‘currently active movement mode’, set separately for each manoeuvre. Since manoeuvres are based on squares, you go through them faster when running, which is why it is important to be able to set movement mode. Each manoeuvre increases your fatigue by a certain amount, proportionate with the level requirement.

 

The biggest moves you could get would be moving 25 squares straight ahead, or a 24 tick delay before walking 1 square, or skipping 4 squares, or moving 10 squares and then moving 10 more in another direction and so on (remember, level 99 counts as level 100). There are lots of uses for this: agility courses are one, but also things like standing under a stunned enemy or kiting a Ket-Zek, moving around barricades or through the Sorceress’ Garden and even simply running from the Grand Exchange underwall tunnel to the Edgeville fairy ring.

 

If you rigidly apply this system, WASD movement would require level 4 agility for walking and level 8 for running (because running happens two squares at the time). However, it should be included as four free manoeuvres from level 1, for both absolute and relative movement. It would cost no more fatigue than regular movement. To make easy walking and running possible, the control key toggles the current run mode for one move action - ctrl-W when the default is ‘run’ makes you walk one up, ctrl-D when the default is ‘walk’ makes you run two to the right.

 

Hopefully, this system makes movement easier, allowing players to focus more on the tactics of the game, while also involving movement much more into those tactics than it is now. Combined with the updates to attack at range (see 4. Combat), easily performed complex movements make combat more interesting.

 

The point being that square- and tick-based combat is interesting exactly because it's using discrete units/turns instead of being real-time.

 

Edit: for section 4, check the link in my signature.

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Why would you break down RS' unique points in favour of even more generic MMORPG elements?

^This

 

I don't want wasd movement of any kind. I play Runescape because it's different from other games; I don't want to make it more like other games without good reason, and I have yet to see any good reason (in my eyes) for wasd movement in any form. And I don't see any way to add it into the game without significantly changing the existing movement method, either.

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Well making the grid more sensative would be better, but wasd isn't much... those moments when you thought you were between the fire walls...



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Well making the grid more sensative would be better, but wasd isn't much... those moments when you thought you were between the fire walls...

Have to agree with this. Regardless of which system they use, it'd be nice if they could 'tighten' up the movement system, if such a thing is possible without breaking everything else.

 

...You know, I can't help but wonder how the game would be if it was more turn-based.

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I do not want WASD movement.. At least not if it limits mouse movement.

Why would it do that when you need the mouse to click abilities, tabs, etc...

 

WASD would most likely be a toggle option.



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You need the mouse to click abilities and tabs and windows in other MMOs, but you still can't click to move. I like that I can click the minimap and move to a target. I like that I can click on the screen and move. I don't want that removed. I dislike WASD/Arrow movement.

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Really interested on seeing how jagex handles this. This is some of the best rs news i've seen in a long time as i like many dislike the 200 level calculation and would like special attacks and old combat back. But how are people with EOC, momentum, and legacy play at the same spots, especially pvp?

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To be honest, my opinion on this has nothing to do with whether or not legacy mode or EOC is "better." The main issue I have with this topic is that Jagex can't stick to their guns. They can't please everyone.

 

As far as the Legacy vs. EOC debate, personally I'm used to EOC when it comes to PVM activities. I like that it's optional no matter what the outcome is. But, I find it hard to believe that they can seamlessly integrate legacy mode into the combat system without completely redesigning the EOC aspect of combat as well. I voted against legacy mode simply because I'm now used to the way EOC works. I'm not interested in relearning the combat system when the inevitable change to the EOC system comes.

 

But anyway, that's my 2 cents.

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  • 1 month later...

Legacy Mode – Progress Update

 

Hi everyone,

 

In February we announced big plans for RuneScape’s combat – to introduce a Legacy Combat Mode for those who preferred the old combat gameplay and game interfaces.

 

We’ve been working on the design and development of Legacy Mode since you voted for us to start, back in mid-February. We’ve made good progress since then, and are aiming for an initial beta in May. The beta will be incredibly important and Legacy needs to well-tuned before it’s ready to leave beta, so while we’re pretty confident in ‘summer’ release, it wholly depends on how testing and feedback goes.

 

---------------------------------------------------------

 

So, what is Legacy Mode?

 

Legacy Mode is a way to play the modern game, but with the feel of the old combat gameplay and interfaces. Combined with the combat changes being introduced to the wider game, such as 138 combat calculation and special attacks, Legacy will feel like the simpler experience familiar to those who played prior to the Evolution of Combat and RuneScape 3.

 

To get a sense of what Legacy Mode will look like, this is a target mockup that we’re working towards – as you can see, it looks very close to the game screens of 2011:

 

Legacy_Mode_Mock_Up_L.jpg

 

Legacy_Mode_fixed.jpg

 

---------------------------------------------------------

What will Legacy Mode include?

 

Legacy Mode isn’t a replica of the game back from 2011, but it will have the most important things: especially old-style interfaces, removal of EoC abilities and reinstatement of Special Attacks. It’s a way to experience the modern game, with content and equipment that’s be introduced over the last couple of years, without the need to learn our more recent combat system.

 

Here‘s how the modes compare:

 

Legacy_Comparison_c_l.jpg

The majority of game worlds will allow those in Legacy Mode to play alongside EoC players, so the two groups can play together, interact and fight side-by-side if they wish. We’re also intending to create a few Legacy-only worlds, for players who want to do PvP exclusively against other Legacy Mode users.

 

Please also note that it is critical to us that in making Legacy Mode we don’t sideline or negatively impact the modern combat system for those who like it.

 

We’ll have a lot more detail about Legacy Mode when we get towards beta.

 

---------------------------------------------------------

 

What next?

 

Legacy Mode is just one of a many major improvements we’re making to RuneScape’s combat this year, and you can read about the other features in the Evolution of Combat Improvements. As you can see, we’ve got a ton of plans and this is obviously a lot of work for our combat development team. As a summary, here’s our current plan for combat improvements:

  • April - Combat Improvements Beta update.
  • May – Release current batch of combat improvements.
  • June – Legacy Mode beta.
  • June – Release rejuvenation of PvP improvements.
  • Summer TBD – Legacy Mode, 138 combat calculation and special attacks.
  • Summer TBD – Grouping system & first batch of PvP content reworks.

     

     

Thanks for reading and I hope it’s been a useful update as to our plans. Legacy Mode is going to be a collaborative effort and we intend to shape it around what you want – please join the discussion on the forums to be a part of that.

 

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As an 07 player that quit when EoC came out. (I can't say it was entirely because of EoC, real life was busy and it was a rather large straw on an already overburdened camel's back), I'm certainly curious enough to check this out when it's released.

 

Thing is, though, it's not just the EoC attack style or whatever that changed, the combat changed massively with everything. My favorite thing to do was bandos, 2 claws and a few chaotic maul hits, unreliable damage and competitiveness with other PvMers that involved just enough luck to keep everyone interested in competing, some people hated it, some loved it like I did. Before I quit, I tried out EoC bossing, and both bandos and corp were the same, I just stood there and mashed my keyboard, watching the exact same numbers popping up without any element of randomness, wondering if there was much point in mashing the keys in a specific order outside of queuing them to cooldown optimally (A skill that took all of 5 minutes to master) and wondering how people were gonna chat if we were all mashing our keyboards. (They wouldn't)

 

Dunno if any of that EoC stuff changed as time went on, but if it's still not random damage, it's gonna be impossible for them to implement random damage vs reliable damage without making 1 of them useless/underpowered for certain activities, such as competitive pvm and pvp.

 

Best I am expecting is "Look you have your old combat! It's so weak that you'll never use it long term and it's unusuable to pvp with, but hey while you're here why don't you try this EoC stuff? It's super great, much better exp than the crummy old combat." then they don't have to care about balance as long as old combat remains suboptimal as they've already stated it will be. I am being very cynical, though.

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