Jagex Attempting to Stop Monopolies?

[Soma2035]

Why are YOU suddenly the person who gets to decide how all players should play this game?

 

 

 

It's not him deciding it. Obviously if Jagex puts out an intentional update that hurts a certain group (certain groups of merchanters have been hurt directly and intentionally in the past) then they do not support that method of playing.

 

 

 

Don't shoot the messenger, be mad at Jagex because they don't like the way mass merchenters are playing, and are taking steps to put it to a halt.

 

 

 

A) This so called "step" hardly affects mass merchants.

 

 

 

B) Jagex has released intentional updates that hurt other groups before, and have specifically clarified that they are not discouraging that type of play. I.E. Pures.

 

 

 

C) The people most hurt by this update are the small time merchants who purchase a high quantity of some low value items, and resell after a short period of time. Not investors. Note that Jagex specifically encouraged this type of exchange in their KB.

[Soma2035]

 

There is an intrinsic counter for price manipulation in the free market. Caps on prices, price changes, and on the amount you can purchase are completely unnecessary... or would be, if Jagex were to fix the damn Grand Failure.

 

 

 

How do you propose to fix it?

 

 

 

Remove all the restrictions? What would be it diffirent from old system... apart from being faster? Part of this counter manipulation mechanism you talk about is supervision from various govermental and semi-govermental agencies. No market is truly free.

 

I agree that current system is bad and needs changing. What I disagree with is bringing old, inefficent system back. As i pointed out in the post i'd like to GE to be supervised rather than controlled.

 

 

 

Limitations on offers - Extended. 10%, or 15% perhaps, but not 5%.

 

 

 

Updating prices - 6+ times a day rather than 1, updates based on offers and uncompleted transactions rather than completed transactions.

 

 

 

As for the intrinsic mechanism, I don't care how many people are price manipulating Saradomin Godswords up. I'm not paying 500M for it. If you and a bunch of manipulators raise the price of an SGS beyond the price I'm willing to pay, I'll simply get it myself or live without it.

 

 

 

Supply and Demand is the concept that Jagex has failed to grasp so far. If an SGS is worth 50M at equilibrium, if you manipulate the price up to 60-70M, you won't be able to sell them, because it's not at equilibrium. The more above the equilibrium you go, the less you'll be able to sell. And all the extras that are trying to be sold will inevitably bring the price back down.

 

 

 

The reason market regulations are needed in the real world economy is that there are items you NEED. The majority of us can not go and produce our own food, despite the fact we NEED it to live. In Runescape, anything you need, you can get yourself. Anything you can't get yourself isn't a NECESSITY. And in truth, anyone can get anything with enough persistence.

[Obtaurian]

I believe that the Jagex opinion of merchants is similar to their opinion of pures. They do not acknowledge pures as players, in that they do not provide updates specifically for them, and any update that hurts them is OK, because to Jagex, the game is about raising your skills in order to reap the benefits of having higher levels. Because merchanting has nothing to do with levels, it is not acknowledged as a legitimate style of game play.

 

 

 

It seems logical to me that no player would need more than ten Godswords, Bandos Plates, etc, an hour. You could argue that a player would need to buy more than one rare an hour, but that's definitely the exception.

 

 

 

I'm not saying that merchants, pures, etc, are bad, wrong, or whatever. I'm just saying that they do not register as legitimate players to Jagex.

 

 

 

I'm sure we all know by now that these restrictions were implemented because there were players affecting the prices of high end items. The prices of items like Godswords should only be affected by the players who buy them for practical purposes. When these prices begin to be affected by the "illegitimate" populi of Runescape, we have a problem - according to Jagex.

[shivers21]

some of you say that this update does not effect you, but it does, especially f2p, there magic system is [bleep]ed now they won't be able to alch plates anymore, unless they smith them themselves, and how many people do that? this does not affect me that much, it will in the case of not being able to buy some of the weapons I use alot (dds's for bounty hunter), but I will just wait the 4 hours, quite an inconveinence, but there are ways to get over this.

[magmaguard3]

What amazes me is jagex has not realized after one major failed attempt that LIMITS DO NOT WORK. We don't need any more limits jagex. What we do need is creative ideas that will not add on ridiculous limits but rather change the way something works.

 

 

 

Just give manipulators a few weeks, they will figure out a way around this just like RWT did, and thrive once again.

 

 

 

Agreed. I'll give jagex props for recognizing the problem, but as Mario said, we don't need more limits. The merchants will find a way around this. :o

[acenator]

About the limits and the free market, is there anybody who follows the news about the real live free market who still believes that we humans are homo economicus? free markets gives free soapbells and after a while a free meltdown. Restrictions are not necessary bad for our health.

 

Regulations to stop fraud and monopolies and such are fine, but what happened to the housing market started with the government trying to make it so that anyone could buy a house.

 

 

 

Janet Reno, Clinton's Attorney General, practically threatened companies with audits and investigations if they failed to give out enough sub-prime mortgages and the government told Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac they had to have something like 42% of their mortgage assets in sub-prime loans. This, in turn lead to more people (as in, people who wouldn't have been able to get them without the government stepping in) buying houses and getting adjustable rate mortgages (ARMs) thinking they'll be able to refinance before their rates go up. More demand means higher prices. Prices go up at extraordinary rates and eventually reach the point where the market can't take them any more. Prices plummet and people with these ARMs can't refinance. People default on their loans and the secondary market (known as Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac (together they owned about 50% of the market) collapses because of it.

 

 

 

Had the government stayed out of the market, these people being forclosed on wouldn't have gotten their loans in the first place, prices wouldn't have skyrocketed and plumeted, and we wouldn't be in this mess.

 

 

 

Also, markets go through cycles. Back in 1889, the markets crashed even harder than in 1929, but the government didn't do anything and it picked itself up and started growing again in about 2 or 3 years. Not to mention that FDR's New Deal caused a recession within the depression and WWII deserves most of the credit for rebuilding the U.S. economy and giving people jobs.

 

 

 

Sorry for being a bit off topic.

 

 

 

EDIT: Added in some extra information that I used in a later post.

[Obtaurian]

some of you say that this update does not effect you, but it does...

 

 

 

I'm pretty sure I speak for all of us when I say that this does not affect your average Slayer. Not unless the average Slayer dies 10 times a task. :|

[acenator]

some of you say that this update does not effect you, but it does...

 

 

 

I'm pretty sure I speak for all of us when I say that this does not affect your average Slayer. Not unless the average Slayer dies 10 times a task. :|

 

I think he was referring to the affects this could have on the prices of these items. I'm not going to make any specific predictions, but, if this has the intended effect (or at least a mild version of it), then prices are likely to change because of it.

[Yes_Its_Ross]

This thread makes me want to play Monopoly.

[Artemis1330]

Far too many people on this thread confuse merchants with manipulators.

 

 

 

Merchants hardly effect prices, if at all. We buy when an item is already falling and sell when it is soon to hit its peak. OR we buy X amount of an item for X price, and resell it for a bit more, usually within the already falling and rising prices the item is going through.

 

 

 

Manipulators simply buy out items, forcing them to rise.

 

 

 

 

 

I agree it is a good thing it stops the manipulating clans. I just think it could of been handled differently, at least at first. Actually seeing a rule made or a JMOD posting on forums that manipulating is wrong/against Jagex rules would be nice. Banning ppl like A_C_I_D_Y and the other big leaders of price manipulation, or at least perm mutes for ppl promoting it.

 

 

 

I was recently told by someone that jmods were spotted in some of the bigger manipulating clan chats. I asked around and a few others also said they saw JMODS from time to time in these CCs. Just sitting there doing nothing. I really dislike how they go from reading the clan chats straight to eliminating all high end item merchanting

[Dragons_Might]

Far too many people on this thread confuse merchants with manipulators.

 

 

 

Merchants hardly effect prices, if at all. We buy when an item is already falling and sell when it is soon to hit its peak. OR we buy X amount of an item for X price, and resell it for a bit more, usually within the already falling and rising prices the item is going through.

 

 

 

Manipulators simply buy out items, forcing them to rise.

 

 

 

Exactly.

 

 

 

I think the reason they're confused is because everyone thinks its merchanting when its just really a more evil form. Plus manipulating is actually noticable on the econamy.. so it gets everyone going.

 

 

 

And EDIT:

 

 

 

I agree it is a good thing it stops the manipulating clans. I just think it could of been handled differently, at least at first. Actually seeing a rule made or a JMOD posting on forums that manipulating is wrong/against Jagex rules would be nice. Banning ppl like A_C_I_D_Y and the other big leaders of price manipulation, or at least perm mutes for ppl promoting it.

 

 

 

I was recently told by someone that jmods were spotted in some of the bigger manipulating clan chats. I asked around and a few others also said they saw JMODS from time to time in these CCs. Just sitting there doing nothing. I really dislike how they go from reading the clan chats straight to eliminating all high end item merchanting

 

 

 

I think it's because Jagex knows we can do whatever we want with our money. We earned it so we are alloud to spend it as we want. I think these new limits are more of... Idk, Trying to settle it in a "nonviolent" mannor? (Idk if putting it that way makes sense for everyone..)

[Jenove]

I would rant about this for a long time but lemme shoten this lets hope this works :pray:

 

Right of the bat im a F2per and i do do a little merchangting from time to time, this update KILLS AND I REAPEAT KILLS THE POINT OF USE of GE TO MERCHANT ON F2p. SAY U are merchanting RUNE pl8 or rune scimmys , now you can only get like 10 :wall: :wall: while before i would sell them 50 at a time

 

omfg

 

this realyl freezez the 250 scimmys that i got last week #-o #-o :wall:

[Maulmachine]

:lol: Few know this, but this screws the people with 800m+, at 800m+ you could buy most of any regular item and MAKE it rise, this wasn't merchanting, it was manipulation.

[ogosooo]

This really doesn't affect me at all. I always thought of merchanting as an absolutely pathetic way of making money, considering the low amount of people buying high on some things today. It isn't impossible to make money other ways.... :roll:

[elit9]

Anyone else want to replace the entire U.S. House with Jagex's staff? They at least understand how to fix their economy!

 

 

 

(I've never really had much of an opinion on GE price manipulation, but that might be because I stopped playing before the heyday of this "manipulation".)

[Soma2035]

Anyone else want to replace the entire U.S. House with Jagex's staff? They at least understand how to fix their economy!

 

 

 

(I've never really had much of an opinion on GE price manipulation, but that might be because I stopped playing before the heyday of this "manipulation".)

 

 

 

... What the !@$!@$!!% are you talking about!?

 

 

 

Jagex understands how to fix their economy because they circumvent the easiest solution, in favor of a score of half-arsed attempts to patch up small holes which shouldn't even exist? And on top of that, they're placing the patches in the wrong places?

[The_Gabe]

This really doesn't affect me at all. I always thought of merchanting as an absolutely pathetic way of making money, considering the low amount of people buying high on some things today. It isn't impossible to make money other ways.... :roll:

 

 

 

Wow, that's like saying if they removed skilling, there would be a lot of other ways to make cash. Doesn't anyone get it? If you're good at merchenting, go for it! It's actually a fair, and decent way to make some cash for things like fming, crafting, etc.

 

 

 

Also, why the hell do people keep saying merchenters are damned people? Is it because they can make money without skilling or boss hunting and such, while wasting less energy and actually studying graphs and such instead of going to bandos and repeadily hit bandos every 5 seconds? Merchenting is what helps the economy move. The economy is about 75% dead without them. :x

[Lord_Firer]

I see an issue with the limit set forth in the GE. What I want is a free economy, and it's already been restricted with the trade limits and everyone using the GE. Now, they further prolong the annoyance of restriction by setting more limits on the GE? Are they trying to stop price manipulation? Well, ultimately the prices are set by Jagex and no one is really forced to buy anything from the merchants anyways so this update is one hell of a bugger. :|

 

 

 

Merchanters do nothing for no one other than for themselves. They are a hindrance to the economy. All Jagex are doing is trying to level the playing field. The rich can no longer make the poor - not so rich people pay for items than they should. Free capitalistic economies are not a good thing *cough* Wall Street *cough*. People are forced to buy from merchants when they deplet a market of an item, then flood it again, forceing the person to buy it or go without it. That is what Jagex is stopping with this update, or trying to. We will see how it goes in a few weeks.

 

 

 

There is no need to get the economy moving, it will move by itself when it reflects the people that are using the items. Things would be a lot less expensive without merchanters.

[Tim]

im glad for this. now if i decide to take a break from def' training and do something like slayer i can actully buy a slayer mask. :

[DieselX]

It's not bad, it will stop manipulation, but it hurts honest investors who were trying to make some money with the normal fluctuations of the market. Meh, anything to stop manipulation, right?

 

 

 

What's worrying is that tendency of Jagex's to put their noses in absolutely everything. They can't just let people trade things freely, nope, they just have to screw with it. Can't let it just go naturally, no that's just not right, they have to "fix" it. They just have to put warning messages everywhere, a million words to filtrer, a heap of silly rules with no real use, a controlled market, a set of defined chat phrases already typed up. They just can't help themselves, they have to put stops on everything.

 

 

 

I don't play RS anymore, btw, the updates are pretty useless nowadays, and the community is awful. In the game I'm playing right now, the company doesn't intervene at all, apart from hosting events every 2 weeks or so. They don't touch at the economy, there is no filtrer, no warning screens, no report button, no ignore button, no random events, none of any of that. Is it chaos, anarchy, name-calling? Nope. That's just jagex trying to make you believe that you need all those stops, you don't. For instance, in RS, Jagex makes such a big deal out of transferring items from a character to another. In most games, obviously it allowed, it's your items, you do what you want with them. But jagex just has to make a big deal out of it.

 

 

 

What's there to say? Congratz, manipulation is gone, but you had to gave up, yet again, some of your liberties for it. That's really what it boils down to. Jagex will just rip away from you all your liberties, and all your rights, and they will put in place "safer" measures because they think they have better judgement than you do. They just have to screw with every single thing that get's too fun, or too profitable. You're allowed to have fun, but just the kind of fun that Jagex judges you have the "right" to have.

[Lord_Firer]

It's not bad, it will stop manipulation, but it hurts honest investors who were trying to make some money with the normal fluctuations of the market. Meh, anything to stop manipulation, right?

 

 

 

What's worrying is that tendency of Jagex's to put their noses in absolutely everything. They can't just let people trade things freely, nope, they just have to screw with it. Can't let it just go naturally, no that's just not right, they have to "fix" it. They just have to put warning messages everywhere, a million words to filtrer, a heap of silly rules with no real use, a controlled market, a set of defined chat phrases already typed up. They just can't help themselves, they have to put stops on everything.

 

 

 

I don't play RS anymore, btw, the updates are pretty useless nowadays, and the community is awful. In the game I'm playing right now, the company doesn't intervene at all, apart from hosting events every 2 weeks or so. They don't touch at the economy, there is no filtrer, no warning screens, no report button, no ignore button, no random events, none of any of that. Is it chaos, anarchy, name-calling? Nope. That's just jagex trying to make you believe that you need all those stops, you don't. For instance, in RS, Jagex makes such a big deal out of transferring items from a character to another. In most games, obviously it allowed, it's your items, you do what you want with them. But jagex just has to make a big deal out of it.

 

 

 

What's there to say? Congratz, manipulation is gone, but you had to gave up, yet again, some of your liberties for it. That's really what it boils down to. Jagex will just rip away from you all your liberties, and all your rights, and they will put in place "safer" measures because they think they have better judgement than you do. They just have to screw with every single thing that get's too fun, or too profitable. You're allowed to have fun, but just the kind of fun that Jagex judges you have the "right" to have.

 

 

 

Your right, but price manipulation is at the expense of others. It should not happen in the first place if these people that did it were decent, but no, greed is too much.

[ckellingc]

Not good news for the skillers I'm afraid. So I'll take it battlestaves per hour has dropped to?

[acenator]

Free capitalistic economies are not a good thing *cough* Wall Street *cough*.

 

First off, I haven't heard of any fully free capitalistic economy in a long while.

 

 

 

Secondly, it was government regulations that caused what's happening in the real world right now.

 

 

 

Janet Reno, Clinton's Attorney General, practically threatened companies with audits and investigations if they failed to give out enough sub-prime mortgages and the government told Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac they had to have something like 42% of their mortgage assets in sub-prime loans. This, in turn lead to more people (as in, people who wouldn't have been able to get them without the government stepping in) buying houses and getting adjustable rate mortgages (ARMs) thinking they'll be able to refinance before their rates go up. More demand means higher prices. Prices go up at extraordinary rates and eventually reach the point where the market can't take them any more. Prices plummet and people with these ARMs can't refinance. People default on their loans and the secondary market (known as Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac (together they owned about 50% of the market) collapses because of it.

 

 

 

Had the government stayed out of the market, these people being forclosed on wouldn't have gotten their loans in the first place, prices wouldn't have skyrocketed and plumeted, and we wouldn't be in this mess.

 

 

 

Also, markets go through cycles. Back in 1889, the markets crashed even harder than in 1929, but the government didn't do anything and it picked itself up and started growing again in about 2 or 3 years. Not to mention that FDR's New Deal caused a recession within the depression and WWII deserves most of the credit for rebuilding the U.S. economy and giving people jobs.

 

 

 

This was copied and pasted from a previous post on this thread (with a few changes). Please try to look into these things a little more closely before making accusations.

 

 

 

Again, sorry to be off topic, but I have to make sure people understand what's happened.

[Dexek]

I would rant about this for a long time but lemme shoten this lets hope this works :pray:

 

Right of the bat im a F2per and i do do a little merchangting from time to time, this update KILLS AND I REAPEAT KILLS THE POINT OF USE of GE TO MERCHANT ON F2p. SAY U are merchanting RUNE pl8 or rune scimmys , now you can only get like 10 :wall: :wall: while before i would sell them 50 at a time

 

omfg

 

this realyl freezez the 250 scimmys that i got last week #-o #-o :wall:

 

 

 

First off, you can still buy 100 rune scitimars at a time, just as before. You can sell any given amount that you have, as always. If you're having trouble, I'd be glad to buy all of your rune scitimars for trade price. :

 

 

 

I personally think that these limits are an "ok" way to combat manipulation.. but I would much prefer manipulators were picked out and treated accordingly based on their actions.

[davidium]

I can't say i like the way Jagex seems to be interfering with just about every small thing that "goes wrong". The distinction between disapproving of something and disallowing it seems to have been lost in debates like this. We should be free to make whatever moral, political or other criticisms we choose of what is happening in society. To some of us, freedom of speech is the most important choice of all. However, criticism should not be confused with censorship or bans. The fact that you find something offensive is no good reason to turn it into a criminal offence. Just because someone's actions irritate you or that you don't like what someone is doing doesn't mean that the activity should be banned altogether.

 

 

 

Yet there is a powerful trend in recent months for Jagex to try to outlaw whatever is deemed outlandish. Ideas for safespots such as those as the sara gwd, Real World Trading, coarse language, minor "glitches" which do not harm anyone (not talking about glitches such as doomsday but MINOR ones in the name of fun) and many more are not just frowned upon or denounced but are likely to be investigated, prepertraitors punished and ideas demolished altogether. In a free society, however, people ought to have the right to make the choices for themselves even if it is the 'wrong' choice and despite the fact that others might disapprove.

 

 

 

Unfortunately, Jagex is a company where illiberal liberalism and intolerant tolerance are the dominant values. All of this is done in the name of defending newbie players in a safe and cosy environment. Jagex determines what we can say or cannot say, how much we can buy and cannot buy, how we should go about killing monsters such as sara's commander zilyana, restricting the value of items we can give our friends, setting price ceilings and price floors for us and so many more.

 

 

 

For people who think that setting price ceilings and price floors do not affect prices on GE and thus are fine please think again. In the real world, trade taking place in black markets do not affect the prices of goods being traded at price ceilings and floors too just like Runescape but everyone who has studied even a bit of economics should know that price ceilings and price floors without further regulation will result in a black market which is DEFINITELY worse than a free market. This statement is widely accepted by just about every well-known economists.

 

 

 

Increasingly, Jagex is gearing the game towards one which is meant for kiddies below the age of 13 rather than above the age of 13...warning signs, strict censorship, trade limit...protect, protect, protect. Just because Jagex thinks that young players do not have the intellectual capability to understand, participate and thus benefit from merchanting/manipulation doesn't mean that they should restrict it altogether. Come on...if this is a game for people above the age of 13 the players then should be of a certain maturity and ability to protect themselves instead of having a nanny to babysit them all the time. Even games like MapleStory which is suitable for players below 13 and even below 7 do not censor as much as Jagex nor restrict activities that much. Free trade is allowed with no restrictions to RWT and stuff and language censorships are much more liberal.

 

 

 

Many of play MMORPGs as a form of escapism to enter a virtual world where we are free of society's constraints. Imposing even more restrictions than those in the real world is rather quite a turn off.