Jagex Attempting to Stop Monopolies?

[Makoto_the_Phoenix]

It's still too liberal. Whatever happened to buying armor because you planned on using it, instead of screwing over some guy who wants to buy it so he can go fight monsters by buying up all the stock and making him pay extortion prices. The people who do that are no better than people who engage in ticket scalping to scam children at a freaking Hannah Montana concert.

 

 

 

 

Ticket scapling is not illegal though. It's a simple matter of suply and demand. If enough people want something, they will pay any price for it.

 

 

 

lrn2 economics

 

Take a picture of the officer's face after you tell him that story. That'd be priceless.

[Omar]

this is ridiculous..

 

 

 

they need to leave merchants alone.

 

You need to leave RS alone.

[turbofreak12]

Well, I think something had to be done about price manipulation by large clans, but this change might have been a little drastic. Changing the limit form 100 to 25 seems reasonable, as it would hinder huge market buy-outs or sell-outs, without really hindering the freedom of small time merchanters, or small-time merchant clans. But, it really doesn't affect me, since I only do small investments (I've got about 500k invested in sharks and lobbies right now :thumbsup: ).

[nyyankees588]

With the addition of more rules the end of runescape seems to be coming sooner and sooner.

[Creator288]

With the addition of more rules the end of runescape seems to be coming sooner and sooner.

 

No, just loss of market control.

 

 

 

but really, I never saw the point in merchenting, I buy items because i want THE ITEM.

 

It's honestly sad that we can't buy items because we intend to use them...

[Tekilla]

Might these limits actually cause people to begin buying up items faster rather than buying them in large quantities but over a longer period of time

 

 

 

I believe what you mean is , that people will now strive to always have an offer on the G.E. As opposed to buying a large quantity, reselling it, and buying another, they will now have to constantly move bit by bit, buying and selling in small bundles.

 

 

 

Any who, I believe this is really unfair, Although I understand that price manipulation was a problem, it will not be stopped by a measly restrain. This is like a picketed fence in the way of a rampaging bull. I can honestly say I merched, in perhaps small amounts, and I see nothing wrong with it. Price manipulation is usually done by large groups anyways, so this will only increase their number and size. Thanks a Lot Jagex :wall: -.- :wall:

 

 

 

(P.S. I would make a better Siggy if I had the time)

[Omali]

Ticket scapling is not illegal though. It's a simple matter of suply and demand. If enough people want something, they will pay any price for it.

 

 

 

lrn2 economics

 

 

 

Umm...Ticket scalping is illegal in several countries as well as multiple states in the US. So, as said before, tell your story to your arresting officer. I'm sure he'll love it.

 

 

 

Lrn2 litigation :wall:

[Lord_Firer]

Ticket scapling is not illegal though. It's a simple matter of suply and demand. If enough people want something, they will pay any price for it.

 

 

 

lrn2 economics

 

 

 

Umm...Ticket scalping is illegal in several countries as well as multiple states in the US. So, as said before, tell your story to your arresting officer. I'm sure he'll love it.

 

 

 

Lrn2 litigation :wall:

 

 

 

Lol, very funny. Anyway, if people did not fall for the greed of manipulating the prices to make huge profits, then this would not have happened. It seems that the few that are of no decency seem to make it worse for us all. RWT is just another case of this happening. Jagex has no option but to do this. But I do believe that it could have been delt with better.

[ItemLendingInc]

I don't like these updates.

 

 

 

Why can us Merchants not conduct business?

[ItemLendingInc]

Also looks like they have restricted how much food you can buy.

 

 

 

 

 

Great job! Brovo! :roll:

[elit9]

Anyone else want to replace the entire U.S. House with Jagex's staff? They at least understand how to fix their economy!

 

 

 

(I've never really had much of an opinion on GE price manipulation, but that might be because I stopped playing before the heyday of this "manipulation".)

 

Replace the U.S. House with Jagex's staff and get communist Russia and China? Is that what you want? Don't you know that Ronald Reagan and Margaret Thatcher were famous for deregulating the American and UK's economies respectively...Thus bringing about great economic spurts?

 

 

 

The world has swung from that of a free market stance to a command economy stance and finally back to a free market stance once again albeit with a mixture of government intervention this time around. The free market came to a halt with the Great Depression but after a few decades the fall of the Berlin Wall just close to 2 decades ago signified the return of the free market but this time in the form of a mixed economy. The world has seen how both the free economy and command economy have failed and thus many feel that the mixed economy is the right way to go.

 

 

 

However the bigger question is THE EXTENT to which governments should interfere in the free market...if Jagex ran the US economy, there will be so much regulation and State Owned Enterprises which have no profit incentive of motive that it will result in great inefficiency and a failed economy. I'm not saying that the current US leaders are good either...many people blame Alan Greenspan for his lack of regulation because he kept interest rates at low levels allowing easy credit to form and thus the housing bubble to emerge. The current sub-prime crisis is the result of much greed among Americans both home-owners and people on Wall Street. I loved seeing how America fell...they really deserve it...look at their humongous trade deficit with the rest of the world and you will see the reason why they have been able to enjoy such high standards of living in recent years while the majority of the world slogged away in poverty.

 

 

 

America preached about the need for transparency and regulation but the hypocrites practiced none of that themselves.

 

A decade ago during the Asian financial crisis, countries such as Korea (one of the worst hit countries of the crisis) were cornered, bullied and bashed up with the many strict pre-conditions before the US would offer any form of aid to them...this time round the tables have turned and the Korean Development Bank (KDB) left Lehman in the lurch without bailing them out =D>

 

 

 

Okay, first off Id like to point out the fact that my RL reference was a throwaway comment referring to the fact that Jagex is indeed doing something with their economy, instead of just sitting there and waffling like the U.S. congress has done with the bailout bill. By no stretch of the imagination do I think we should implement a command economy, set price controls, or do anything crazy like that. At first glance I was going to leave it at that and congratulate you on taking the time to make a nice, well-thought-out post anyway, but after reaching the end I realized it actually wasn't quite that.

 

 

 

Seriously, if you somehow feel better about your own situation due to the financial crisis, you clearly do not understand the full scope of this problem; this truly is a global issue. Even if you live someplace thats been lucky enough to somehow escape (for the most part) the effects of the downturn of markets across the globe, the effects will inevitably be felt when the credit market freezes over. Unfortunately, I don't know anything about the financial situation of Korea back in the day, but I do know some things about the nearby nation of China. The U.S. government already effectively bailed out a nice portion of China, since the equivalent of over 10% of that nation's GDP is still invested in the recently-saved Freddie Mac and Fannie Mae. It's not like we just randomly hate that corner of the world, lol. Lehman's failed rescue by KDB is just a coincidence, and it's not like anyone ever thought every single company was going to make it out of this thing alive, anyway.

 

 

 

Additionally, I dont really see how you can criticize the standards of living in the U.S. - I mean yeah, I do see your point, but it doesn't make much sense to use this discussion as a platform to propagate this viewpoint. You're doing this in spite of the fact you seem to live in a place with at least the freedom and opportunity to indulge in activities like accessing the internet to play MMORPGs and post on online forums. In the end, that kind of amenity connotes a standard of living that is much closer to that which many Americans enjoy than it is to the way MOST people live, Im afraid. :)

 

 

 

The assertion that the world has "slogged" in poverty is somewhat fallacious, too. In fact, the total amount of money held in securities throughout the world has DOUBLED in the past decade, largely in part due to the advancement of a myriad of countries across the planet. As it would turn out, they sent lots of goods to the United States and made bank; did you consider the recipients of all that money the U.S. was throwing around while increasing that trade deficit? Interestingly enough, this is also tied into the point you brought up about Greenspan; his keeping the interest rates low not only opened the door for easy credit, but it also encouraged all the people with some vested interest in that newly doubled amount of money to put their cash in some asset other than U.S. treasury bonds, the traditional ultra-safe investment utilized in this situation. One of the chief investment vehicles which was instead used turned out to be these great things called Collateralized Debt Obligations (CDOs), which are basically shares of packages of thousands of home mortgages. Needless to say, as the housing bubble burst (for a variety of reasons), the value of these securities tanked, and that is part of the reason as to why were at the point we are today.

 

 

 

Of course, in the previous paragraph I didnt discuss the disparity of wealth that could espouse poverty among significant parts of the population. However, going into that would open up a whole new can of worms, Im afraid. :) As it is I can barely even remember what this topic was originally about, so if I still feel like saying something after I remember then I might add something to the "actual" topic at hand. 8-)

[davidium]

i dont see the issue - jagex has identified several attempts to ruin the game for the profit of a few at the cost of the many and are doing their best within the constraints of a complex set of variables

 

 

 

i applaud their attempt and im sure it will be adjusted as time goes by to try to ensure effectiveness.

 

 

 

in principle i dont see the issue in limiting quantities on items which in the majority of cases would only need to be traded in low quantities

 

 

 

stop moaning about a free market - its not a free market as several prices are fixed in the game. your using the term free market as an excuse and cover for ripping people off

 

it WAS a free market initially like any other MMORPGs but jagex dealt the free market a heavy blow with the introduction of the G.E. but even more so with trade limits. By limiting the quantity of an item we can buy now, they are dealing the free market yet ANOTHER blow...triple whammy ftl

 

 

 

you say that it is not a free market because several prices are fixed in the game. EXACTLY...these prices are fixed by none other than jagex. look at the price of phats/3rd age/animal masks and you will see how screwed up their pricings are...well at least recently phat prices dropped slightly but it is still moving too slowly to respond to demand and supply changes fast enough...trade limits were a bad enough thing for the free market..quantity limits only make things worse

[davidium]

 

 

 

yes some people are saying that who needs to trade more than 10 godswords in a couple of hours but that is being rather one-sided and extreme...it is ridiculous how such blind people only think about armour and equipment as GODSWORDS and nothing else...how about smithers who are trading the produce of their skilling to others? as well as those who wish to high alch certain profitable armour parts? these players will find themselves at a loss on how to sell the armour they have smithed or buy the armour they want to high alch no?

 

 

 

O.K. Here goes. What would smithers possibly be making that involves such a high price. Of course (you will hate me for this) godsword shards can be smithed but it doesn't give much xp. And when I last checked people can't make TT items. So yeah. That's all.

 

 

 

sorry but i don't understand what you are saying...in the FIRST post of this topic, the quote said that Jagex imposed quantity restrictions when trading weapons and equipment so anyone would think that these include bronze equipment all the way up to rune equipment no? and i can bet you anything that most smithers will be smithing more than 10 pieces of equipment in 4 hours unless they somehow got loads of randoms :-w

 

 

 

although someone else has clarified that the limit does not apply to all equipment, blame the first post for not being precise and clear.

[davidium]

double post

[ishaltkillu0]

Jagex is so unthinking in these updates, it astounds me..

 

 

 

How much of a lack of creativity do they have? Really, this is all they could come up with to stop dumping and manipulation?

 

 

 

How about this: the average is based on the average buy/sell price of each player yesterday. That way, if I buy 1000 of an item, it has the same effect on tomorrow's price as if I buy 1. It's like making a rule that you only vote once. Through this, you'll still see a system that changes to reflect what people are actually buying and selling for, and you eliminate manipulation. People could still have their merchanting, so everyone goes home happy.

 

 

 

Not as if Jagex would do something as logical as that... maybe they want it to be like a real-world stock market?

 

 

 

Well, in a real-world stock market, regulating to this point would slow down investment, and companies couldn't grow as they do now. The important difference between the real world and runescape is that the grand exchange trades tangible items that are a product of work, and the stock market trades shares of a company that produces something. Big and important difference there. Investing is a good thing in a stock market, because it helps the companies. In runescape, investing is forced to be negative because it's just making money by playing the market to no benefit. Thanks to that, Jagex tries to stop investing and collusion... and we end up with these ridiculous updates added as a silent "f*** you" to all those people who wanted to make some money using their heads and without spending 4 years of monotonous training to 120+.

 

 

 

Certainly affected me.. after my main was unfairly banned with no support form Jagex (Cause it's only thousands of hours and 100+ dollars, right?), I wanted to start a new character and play a bit more casually so I just enjoyed the game more rather than a tedious experience. I did that, and started to merchant so I could get some money to train my skills a bit faster and afford some nice items. With all these new regulations though, maybe I'll just quit. It's quite clear that jagex doesn't care what the people who pay for their now pathetic excuse of a game want. What is the jagex vision of Runescape? 10 hours of repetitive grinding per day for years in order to end up with an above average account which you can't do anything with?

 

 

 

Oh boy, sign me up... :roll:

[Omali]

It's quite clear that jagex doesn't care what the people who pay for their now pathetic excuse of a game want.

 

 

 

With all these new regulations though, maybe I'll just quit.

 

 

 

Just do it already, it's clear all you're going to do while you're still playing is whine and cry, accuse Jagex of not caring, and call Runescape a "pathetic excuse of a game". Just quit, do us all a favor and don't subject us to your pointless pissing and moaning. Don't feel bad about Jagex missing your five dollars, you'll be replaced within about 3 minutes by some new wallet with a credit card.

 

 

 

Anyway, if people did not fall for the greed of manipulating the prices to make huge profits, then this would not have happened.

 

 

 

Problem is that humans are, first and foremost, greedy and the majority will do anything it takes to forward their own agenda, even at the expense of others.

[qeltar]

I don't like these updates.

 

 

 

Why can us Merchants not conduct business?

 

 

 

Because it's Jagex's game and they don't want it played in that manner?

 

 

 

I may not agree with this policy but it is theirs to make. And given that the trade restrictions essentially force people to use the GE, there is a certain logic to ensuring that it stays a reliable and stable mechanism.

[Kimberly]

It's one thing to make a profit off of changing markets. For one, that's just making a good investment. It doesn't quite harm the market, but simply plays off of the natural rising and falling trends of any market.

 

 

 

However, it's another thing entirely to call a group of people with the sole intent to manipulate the markets for just monetary gain. It is wrong. Playing like that puts everyone else, including "regular merchants" at a severe disadvantage and cripples an already unstable market system.

 

 

 

I am really happy they're doing something about merchant clans. This is a severe problem for the average player.

[rainbowbody]

Well, there are competing needs and rights and some behaviors are problems because of the interference with those of others. But humankind has troubles in sorting that out in the real world so it is not too surprising that it is hard to sort out in the design and implementation of this game.

 

 

 

Some people try to maximize their own profit or do their thing without any concern for the effects on others, and some even actively try to interfere with the needs of others. Most are just trying to to get along and do what they can to play the game and sell what they get or make in the course of the game and buy what they need to continue. Some aspects of the game lead readily to abuse and others are less inherently unfriendly, though it is always possible to play the game in ways that are actively discourteous and disrespectful of others and actively interfere with others and what they are trying to do in the normal course of the game.

 

 

 

The underlying contention here is whether the economics is considered a competitive sport where interfering with others and their ability to play the game is part of playing the game well or is it just behaving badly. I think it is more the latter and that the economics is more a supportive role to developing and playing. But this needs to be made more clear by Jagex and they need to make it publicly clear and stick to the principles they lay out.

 

 

 

Much like many other parts of the game, they need to make the economic rules as intended, designed, and as implemented more clear. Hidden rules and behavior allows constant changes and mostly harms the ordinary player. The ones who try to take advantage thrive in a hidden (as opposed to an open/visible) environment. Yet keeping a lot of stuff hidden is how Jagex works. It allows them to invalidate player experience by continual nerfing or at least changing behaviors and results of activities.

 

 

 

As far as the GE is concerned, it has several flaws in how it works. The price change mechanism versus price setting for buying or selling by a player interact poorly because of the forced hard min/max. There are valid reasons for the min/max, but they fail to see that the having no mechanism to allow a buy or sell offer stay in range is essential when there are hard range limits. This interferes with the pecking order of buying and selling in ways that can be manipulated.

 

 

 

Limits on buying and selling counts on some items seem to be part of trying to keep down the level of interference with normal play that is not so trading oriented. Such may be valid, but since it is all so hidden it is hard to tell if any of it is fair. The key thing here is interference with others as I see it. Buying and selling is part of the game. But if they want to insure that merchants do not dominate the market with their manipulations, then they need to have advertised detection rules that lower their priority in fully advertised rules for resolving buying and selling. Limiting rates is not enough.

[rainbowbody]

Another area that needs to be covered is how the rules to control abusive merchanting fit the life cycle of expensive items. The rules likely need to change over the life cycle in a known way as there are clear stages in it.

 

 

 

When an item is introduced to the game, it fits into a collection of existing items of related game purpose and values and affects all of them in some direct or indirect way. Some items fit in the middle and seem to have less impact. It is the high end items that seem to have large impact. If it is a new high end weapon, shield or armor, then it has an interesting impact. Generally, it changes the pricing of other high end stuff of similar purpose over time. It is initially scarce, making a sellers market. It stays that way for a while. During this phase, buying several of such an item (counting already owned items) should get reduced priority (and possibly limits) over new buys. This is the only way to keep the merchants from going wild in the initial phase. Getting items to those wanting to use them should have priority always and it is particularly important in the beginning. But such reductions should only affect the exchange and never affect drops as a player should always be encouraged to try to get the items through other game activity.

 

 

 

When items become established, pricing stabilized over a decent period and the supply/demand becoming more normal for rarer useful stuff, the limits and priority behaviors should be less onerous, though should still be there. When items become very mature, newer high end stuff having affected their value for a while, then there should be less constraints, though there still needs to be some to insure normal needs get met without manipulation.

 

 

 

If this is done well, it does not prevent merchanting (buying low, holding, and selling high), but it means it has to contend with normal item life cycle properties without dominating it. Merchanting even has a good aspect in that it allows there to be a more continual demand, that a big ticket item can be sold quickly most of the time and allows items to be available more quickly during the ebb and flow of drops. The idea is to allow this aspect without merchanting becoming the dominant factor.

[rainbowbody]

The rules need to be clear to all and not involve any judgement in application and lead to desired properties in the game. We always get hung up over intent which is almost impossible to know for sure. A well designed game makes desirable stuff happen normally independent of intent of the players. There are examples of this from other game-like contexts. Sports come to mind. So let me examine one such professional sport: baseball.

 

 

 

In Major League Baseball (USA), a couple of issues come to mind that may help illustrate this. One is fan interference: fans trying to get a ball from their seats. The other is batters getting hit by pitches.

 

 

 

Fans are generally charged a lot more money to be in seats next to the field, and are allowed to bring in gloves. But if they try too hard to get a ball that a fielder might get, they get punished. This is a ballpark design issue. If the ballparks were designed so the the fans could reach into the field area from their seats in any way that could interfere, then this would never happen. And that is doable without excessive cost. So I place the blame on the club and ballpark owners and the rule making organization. If a fan does something unusual to circumvent that design then, intent is clear and not a fuzzy judgement issue. That fits well in computer game design situations as well.

 

 

 

When a batter gets hit with a pitch, it becomes a judgement call to determine if it was intended. That is very uneven, but is there because there is this bit of managerial insanity in the baseball culture of needing to retaliate. Some pitchers also are higher on intimidation as a style than are other pitchers. The batter gets a free pass to first base, but the judgement comes in as to whether the pitcher should be ejected. If the rule were set to be that if the pitch is inside and hits the batter, the pitcher is ejected, then the judgement factor is removed, and ejection is just a situational rule with no judgmental aspect to it. They could even use replay to help determine the case or even one of those computer determinations of ball flight versus the strike zone. The rule would be clear and known and not have any judgement needed.

 

 

 

This shows that clear public rules that really fit can make things much easier. This is where Jagex needs to go with how they do this game. It applies to the GE cases in particular.

[m00finz]

Finally, no need to freak out whenever I buy an item that's got any value.

 

 

 

I know nobody needs ten godswords, unless they intend on merching.

[Deathmath]

Well, I've pretty much given up on complaining about how Jagex runs the economy. They've always been some combination of clueless or uncaring about this issue, and I don't see that changing any time soon.

 

 

 

+1. I have no idea what Jagex was trying to achieve with this update... or what they've been trying to achieve with ANY economy - related update since the Grand Exchange. :wall:

 

Perfect wording...

[Dire_Wolf]

I have come to conclusion of this of Runescape economy.

 

 

 

Since the release of GE (Ge is very useful), but that killed the economy so it seems. That+Tradelimit.

[Dioxxipus]

Way to strick another fatal blow to the economy and merchanting Jagex. It seems that you just don't get that a) some people like to merchant, and B) we can handle things very competently without your rules as if we were 7. (which some of us are, but seriously)... Let's try not to be too dictatorial now...