Chaotic Rapier vs Longsword

[SirIzenhime]

Umm...exactly...that's my point....the hammer won't even last you for 60 kills.

 

 

@green

 

Considering how jagex is talking about this boss, 1-2 hits might not be enough, we'll just have to wait and see how his defense is when he comes out.

I don't know why you're argueing here...I was originally in agreement with you...other than I feel you won't even get a full 60 kills worth....

 

The whole point is the warhammer is not worth bringing up as a viable option to use on this boss because of costs

[Soma2035]

Umm...exactly...that's my point....the hammer won't even last you for 60 kills.

 

 

@green

 

Considering how jagex is talking about this boss, 1-2 hits might not be enough, we'll just have to wait and see how his defense is when he comes out.

I don't know why you're argueing here...I was originally in agreement with you...other than I feel you won't even get a full 60 kills worth....

 

The whole point is the warhammer is not worth bringing up as a viable option to use on this boss because of costs

 

Why wouldn't it be viable? Unless it's very easy to get the drops or the boss is a pushover, you can bet the new goodies will carry a fairly high price tag. The way I see it, if the monster has enough defense to punish Rapier-users, the Maul will reign, unless the monster also has enough attack to force a Divine/Elysian/Dungeoneering Shield. If that's the case, I think it'll be time for people to really bring out the big guns so-to-speak. 9M isn't that big of a price to pay for 50+ kills at that point.

 

Even if the cost is prohibitive, there are other options. Bandos Godsword, for one, has been used for quite a while as a cheap substitute for Statius Warhammer at Corp.

[TheAncient]

BGS may not lower its defense to the point that rapier will be sufficiently accurate

i believe it's 60 seconds off the timer for each time you switch to SWH. so best method for speccing would be to spec transfer to one person 1-2 times

[Elf Spice]

By the third spec you're only draining 15% def so I don't see the point in speccing beyond that.

[stonewall337]

Umm...exactly...that's my point....the hammer won't even last you for 60 kills.

 

 

@green

 

Considering how jagex is talking about this boss, 1-2 hits might not be enough, we'll just have to wait and see how his defense is when he comes out.

I don't know why you're argueing here...I was originally in agreement with you...other than I feel you won't even get a full 60 kills worth....

 

The whole point is the warhammer is not worth bringing up as a viable option to use on this boss because of costs

You are wrong. Wrong. You still wield it when drinking the spec rest, or waiting for teammate to xfer, so its still a minute max ^.^.

 

Obviously you've never pro corped before.

[SirIzenhime]

Umm...exactly...that's my point....the hammer won't even last you for 60 kills.

 

 

@green

 

Considering how jagex is talking about this boss, 1-2 hits might not be enough, we'll just have to wait and see how his defense is when he comes out.

I don't know why you're argueing here...I was originally in agreement with you...other than I feel you won't even get a full 60 kills worth....

 

The whole point is the warhammer is not worth bringing up as a viable option to use on this boss because of costs

You are wrong. Wrong. You still wield it when drinking the spec rest, or waiting for teammate to xfer, so its still a minute max ^.^.

 

Obviously you've never pro corped before.

You're right, I haven't, but that's irrelevant, we're not talking about corp.

We have no idea how many Hammer specs you'll need for this guy if any to begin with. All I've said is I don't think the statius hammer will last you 60 kills. You can't tell me I'm wrong until the boss comes out and people start trying it.

 

(btw, you don't have to say "wrong" twice)

[green9090]

Umm...exactly...that's my point....the hammer won't even last you for 60 kills.

 

 

@green

 

Considering how jagex is talking about this boss, 1-2 hits might not be enough, we'll just have to wait and see how his defense is when he comes out.

I don't know why you're argueing here...I was originally in agreement with you...other than I feel you won't even get a full 60 kills worth....

 

The whole point is the warhammer is not worth bringing up as a viable option to use on this boss because of costs

You are wrong. Wrong. You still wield it when drinking the spec rest, or waiting for teammate to xfer, so its still a minute max ^.^.

 

Obviously you've never pro corped before.

You're right, I haven't, but that's irrelevant, we're not talking about corp.

We have no idea how many Hammer specs you'll need for this guy if any to begin with. All I've said is I don't think the statius hammer will last you 60 kills. You can't tell me I'm wrong until the boss comes out and people start trying it.

 

(btw, you don't have to say "wrong" twice)

The hammer's special is percentage based, so it's highly unlikely that the mechanics of using it on Vex will change much from corp. First hit is 35%, next hit is 35% of 65%, next hit is 35% of that, etc. Very quickly diminishing returns regardless of the target.

 

It's not so much relevant that you've never pro corped before, but it is relevant that you've never used the hammer before.

[SirIzenhime]

does it still lower if you miss?

[green9090]

No. However, I'd be absolutely shocked if it missed more often on Nex than corp, because corp has insane slash and crush defense as well as being partially immune to non-spears. Nex could have much much higher defense than corp and still be weaker to hits from the stat hammer.

[SirIzenhime]

well, we'll have to wait until he's released, for all we know, he could be completely immune to crush attacks, or randomly prays against an attack, or....you just can't melee him (for what ever reason they may come up with)

 

They did say he'll have 15 unique moves, who knows what they'll come up with.

[Soma2035]

well, we'll have to wait until he's released, for all we know, he could be completely immune to crush attacks, or randomly prays against an attack, or....you just can't melee him (for what ever reason they may come up with)

 

They did say he'll have 15 unique moves, who knows what they'll come up with.

 

Yes, but, going back the original post I quoted when I mentioned SWH -

 

For all we know, Nex could be immune to melee. We don't have enough information to work out what would be best for fighting it yet.

 

yes, but the overwhelming chances are that if it does require melee, it will have high defense and therefore will need cls or maul. of course, we can only speculate though.

 

The point wasn't to say that SWH would be the standard special weapon. The point was that Rapier isn't going to be excluded solely because the boss has high defense. Notice that if he's completely immune to crush attacks, that includes the Chaotic Maul, too. Or if he's completely immune to melee, all three will be useless.

[TheAncient]

at the end of the day, we can only really speculate so i don't think much significant can be said about the subject.

[Soma2035]

at the end of the day, we can only really speculate so i don't think much significant can be said about the subject.

 

For all we know, Nex could be immune to melee. We don't have enough information to work out what would be best for fighting it yet.

 

yes, but the overwhelming chances are that if it does require melee, it will have high defense and therefore will need cls or maul. of course, we can only speculate though.

 

...

[TheAncient]

at the end of the day, we can only really speculate so i don't think much significant can be said about the subject.

 

For all we know, Nex could be immune to melee. We don't have enough information to work out what would be best for fighting it yet.

 

yes, but the overwhelming chances are that if it does require melee, it will have high defense and therefore will need cls or maul. of course, we can only speculate though.

 

...

 

cool story bro

 

there's little wrong with speculating, especially when you even explicitly state that you are speculating. at the end of the day we can't say anything conclusive, and i didn't claim that i know for a fact rapier will be useless. i just said chances are it will be less useful than maul or cls

 

if you're reallygoing to nitpick, i probably should have used the word "conclusive" rather than "significant" but if you care that much i don't even know what to say to you

[Soma2035]

cool story bro

 

there's little wrong with speculating, especially when you even explicitly state that you are speculating. at the end of the day we can't say anything conclusive, and i didn't claim that i know for a fact rapier will be useless. i just said chances are it will be less useful than maul or cls

 

if you're reallygoing to nitpick, i probably should have used the word "conclusive" rather than "significant" but if you care that much i don't even know what to say to you

 

Okay, hang on a second. All I originally said was, and I quote,

 

Statius Warhammer.

 

All this was meant to imply was that your speculation was based on flawed information - that defense would likely conquer the Rapier. I don't really care if you used the word conclusive or significant - either way, the underlying assumption, that defense would force a Chaotic Longsword or Maul, was incorrect.

 

Now, why can't anything else significant be said about the subject?

[TheAncient]

cool story bro

 

there's little wrong with speculating, especially when you even explicitly state that you are speculating. at the end of the day we can't say anything conclusive, and i didn't claim that i know for a fact rapier will be useless. i just said chances are it will be less useful than maul or cls

 

if you're reallygoing to nitpick, i probably should have used the word "conclusive" rather than "significant" but if you care that much i don't even know what to say to you

 

Okay, hang on a second. All I originally said was, and I quote,

 

Statius Warhammer.

 

All this was meant to imply was that your speculation was based on flawed information - that defense would likely conquer the Rapier. I don't really care if you used the word conclusive or significant - either way, the underlying assumption, that defense would force a Chaotic Longsword or Maul, was incorrect.

 

Now, why can't anything else significant be said about the subject?

 

Like I said, SWH is expensive and not necessarily a viable weapon for a lot of monster hunters. I'm not poor and even I wouldn't be willing to shell out 9M regularly for a weapon that degrades so quickly. Therefore, assuming very high defense and that SWH is impractical, LS/maul will be better than rapier. Of course, if you assume medium-high defense and plenty of cash to fund SWH specs, rapier may be better. It is really just a matter of underlying assumptions, and I think mine are more reasonable for the majority of players.

 

Moreover, we don't even know if SWH is accurate enough to reliably spec Nex without needing a second or third hammer spec. I can pick any set of arbitrary assumptions to prove or disprove whether or not SWH works or not - we simply do not know. For all you know, Nex could have immunity only to SWH specs.

[Soma2035]

Like I said, SWH is expensive and not necessarily a viable weapon for a lot of monster hunters. I'm not poor and even I wouldn't be willing to shell out 9M regularly for a weapon that degrades so quickly. Moreover, we don't even know if SWH is accurate enough to reliably spec Nex without needing a second or third hammer spec. I can pick any set of arbitrary assumptions to prove or disprove whether or not SWH works or not - we simply do not know.

 

But we're not choosing any arbitrary assumptions - we're following yours. Namely, where you said that the defense would force a Chaotic Maul or Chaotic Longsword. We know, from experience, that Statius Warhammer is fairly accurate. The Corporeal Beast has very high defense already and the Statius Warhammer hits it fine. So simply having a lot of defense isn't going to count out Rapier.

 

And no offense but if you're not willing to shell out for a Statius Warhammer, I think a lot of professional monster hunters would consider you poor. I'm not even close to rich, but I'm more than ready to use PvP equipment in safe PvP just to have a good time. Shelling out 9m for an SWH is nothing. Especially compared to the potential returns on it.

[TheAncient]

Like I said, SWH is expensive and not necessarily a viable weapon for a lot of monster hunters. I'm not poor and even I wouldn't be willing to shell out 9M regularly for a weapon that degrades so quickly. Moreover, we don't even know if SWH is accurate enough to reliably spec Nex without needing a second or third hammer spec. I can pick any set of arbitrary assumptions to prove or disprove whether or not SWH works or not - we simply do not know.

 

But we're not choosing any arbitrary assumptions - we're following yours. Namely, where you said that the defense would force a Chaotic Maul or Chaotic Longsword. We know, from experience, that Statius Warhammer is fairly accurate. The Corporeal Beast has very high defense already and the Statius Warhammer hits it fine. So simply having a lot of defense isn't going to count out Rapier.

 

And no offense but if you're not willing to shell out for a Statius Warhammer, I think a lot of professional monster hunters would consider you poor. I'm not even close to rich, but I'm more than ready to use PvP equipment in safe PvP just to have a good time. Shelling out 9m for an SWH is nothing. Especially compared to the potential returns on it.

 

not going to respond to further posts as this is just repeating the same points over again, but:

we DON'T know that SWH is reliable on this boss. simply making that assumption is not sound until we see evidence and have experience at the boss. moreover, we cannot say with a good degree of certainty the rank order of chaotics until we understand the boss mechanics. we are all just guessing and the fact that we are guessing should be highlighted.

 

lol, "professional monster hunter". 1000 DK tribrid solos and 250 TD's in the past week alone; 1B+ in drops over my RS career; call me an amateur please.

 

the reason corp solo is not that common is because cost-per-trip is very high. even though it can generate an expected gross profit of over 9M an hour (assuming kills are valued at 900K - which is backed by a drop log with ~11k kills and my calculations - and 10 kills an hour - 6 min/kill is reasonable), it is not that commonly done simply because sigils are so rare and there is a large chance that, for the entirety of your corp career, you never pay off your SWHs/costs or even come off largely negative (if you're unlucky and get no sigils). a people give up before they get an ely or divine and that's where the majority of the profit is anyway.

 

9M per SWH is not nothing. That comes down to 150K per spec. Assuming a reasonable 10 kills per hour, that's 1.5 MILLION per hour in costs. Considering I get about 3M an hour monster hunting, this new boss would have to at least be 150% the gross profit of my current monsters in order for SWH to be worth it.

 

likewise, this boss may have an extremely low droprate, in which case SWH may pay itself off in the very long run but may be extremely expensive in the short run.

 

for the large proportion of "non-pros" SWH is just not a reasonable assumption to make. this final statement is an OPINION, and if this OPINION is all that we differ on there is no point in arguing because we can go back and forth all day.

[Soma2035]

not going to respond to further posts as this is just repeating the same points over again, but:

we DON'T know that SWH is reliable on this boss. simply making that assumption is not sound until we see evidence and have experience at the boss. moreover, we cannot say with a good degree of certainty the rank order of chaotics until we understand the boss mechanics. we are all just guessing and the fact that we are guessing should be highlighted.

 

And that is exactly the point I've been trying to make, which you've been ignoring.

 

If the SWH isn't reliable, that means the boss has high enough defense that neither CLS nor CM will be effective, either. That's how accurate SWH is, from our current experiences. The new boss is probably not going to have bizarre rules that say "Oh crush weapons that are not chaotic maul will suffer a -500 attack penalty," and that's pretty much what it will take for SWH to be unreliable while chaotic maul still works.

 

Pretty much the only reasonable situation that doesn't depend on some totally bizarre mechanic that would make Rapier significantly inferior is a major slash weakness. At that point, you might as well have said "if the boss is weak to longswords then longsword > rapier."

[TheAncient]

not going to respond to further posts as this is just repeating the same points over again, but:

we DON'T know that SWH is reliable on this boss. simply making that assumption is not sound until we see evidence and have experience at the boss. moreover, we cannot say with a good degree of certainty the rank order of chaotics until we understand the boss mechanics. we are all just guessing and the fact that we are guessing should be highlighted.

 

And that is exactly the point I've been trying to make, which you've been ignoring.

 

If the SWH isn't reliable, that means the boss has high enough defense that neither CLS nor CM will be effective, either. That's how accurate SWH is, from our current experiences. The new boss is probably not going to have bizarre rules that say "Oh crush weapons that are not chaotic maul will suffer a -500 attack penalty," and that's pretty much what it will take for SWH to be unreliable while chaotic maul still works.

 

Pretty much the only reasonable situation that doesn't depend on some totally bizarre mechanic that would make Rapier significantly inferior is a major slash weakness. At that point, you might as well have said "if the boss is weak to longswords then longsword > rapier."

 

i could apply arbitrary restrictions to LS/Maul/Rapier but it seems to me that Jagex would much more likely place a restriction that limits SWH usefulness rather than maul, rapier, or LS since SWH is a specialist weapon while LS/maul/rapier are general use. however, we are really only guessing. aside from these arbitrary restrictions (and yes I agree they are arbitrary), these are possibilities IN ADDITION to the major reason not to use SWH - the extreme cost.

 

as to accuracy:

 

SWH crush bonus: 123; with defender, 150

Maul: 167

 

Let's say maul has 40% accuracy on the boss. I won't do the math but 40% maul accuracy is most likely low enough to warrant maul over LS/rapier. In this case Maul will be useful, as it should have the highest DPS among the three.

 

Maul will always be more accurate than SWH+defender. 40% accuracy on SWH is too low to be reliable and spec-bar efficient.

 

this is just an example of the range of accuracy in which maul will be good but SWH spec will not be reliable (and therefore cost/spec-bar efficient)

 

at the end of the day, do you not agree that it is pointless to speculate because we simply do not know much about the boss? it could be hugely profitable with SWH or SWH might be near 100% accuracy. or it could have total crush immunity in which case SWH would be useless, as well as maul. at the end of the day we are arguing based on our initial assumptions, both of which are to an extent valid because we do not know anything about the boss.

 

to conclude: rapier could be good for this boss if SWH is able to lower its defense significantly. however, we do not know whether or not SWH is ineffective on the boss due to random immunities, is unreliable, or too cost-inefficient, in which case maul or LS is more likely to be the superior weapon. soma believes SWH will not be strongly affected by these limitations; I do.

[Soma2035]

at the end of the day, do you not agree that it is pointless to speculate because we simply do not know much about the boss? it could be hugely profitable with SWH or SWH might be near 100% accuracy. or it could have total crush immunity in which case SWH would be useless, as well as maul. at the end of the day we are arguing based on our initial assumptions, both of which are to an extent valid because we do not know anything about the boss.

 

to conclude: rapier could be good for this boss if SWH is able to lower its defense significantly. however, we do not know whether or not SWH is ineffective on the boss due to random immunities, is unreliable, or too cost-inefficient, in which case maul or LS is more likely to be the superior weapon. soma believes SWH will not be strongly affected by these limitations; I do.

 

So, if it's pointless to speculate, why did you begin the speculating, hmm? Again, my first post was a direct response to YOUR speculation.

 

Now, as far as your SWH argument goes, there are two reasons that I find your belief to be very unlikely.

 

1) Special attacks do not share the accuracy of normal attacks. Some of them are explicitly stated to be more or less accurate, but that is not conclusive. While I personally can not speak for SWH from personal experience, I do know that the Zamorak Godsword special has surprising accuracy. I do, however, have a reason to believe that the Statius Warhammer benefits from increased accuracy on its special attacks - see the posts above, where people familiar with this particular weapon, who have used this particular weapon, and who have seen this particular weapon used comment on its rather high accuracy, even on a monster with insanely high crush defense.

 

2) I don't see any rational reason for Jagex to specifically exclude the SWH. Where did Jagex ever declare the SWH a specialist weapon and the chaotic weapons general use? Jagex has never taken steps against the use of PvP equipment outside of PvP before. There's no more reason to believe they'll exclude the SWH than they'll exclude the Chaotic Maul, other than personal bias. In fact, these two items share many similarities. Both are quite difficult to obtain by the typical player's standards. Both degrade over time, requiring upkeep in the form of additional purchases or recharges. Both have fairly high skill requirements. There's simply no reason to believe Jagex will prohibit them specifically. While it's possible, it's just as possible for them to prohibit chaotic weapons altogether, that is to say, not very likely.

[TheAncient]

at the end of the day, do you not agree that it is pointless to speculate because we simply do not know much about the boss? it could be hugely profitable with SWH or SWH might be near 100% accuracy. or it could have total crush immunity in which case SWH would be useless, as well as maul. at the end of the day we are arguing based on our initial assumptions, both of which are to an extent valid because we do not know anything about the boss.

 

to conclude: rapier could be good for this boss if SWH is able to lower its defense significantly. however, we do not know whether or not SWH is ineffective on the boss due to random immunities, is unreliable, or too cost-inefficient, in which case maul or LS is more likely to be the superior weapon. soma believes SWH will not be strongly affected by these limitations; I do.

 

So, if it's pointless to speculate, why did you begin the speculating, hmm? Again, my first post was a direct response to YOUR speculation.

 

Now, as far as your SWH argument goes, there are two reasons that I find your belief to be very unlikely.

 

1) Special attacks do not share the accuracy of normal attacks. Some of them are explicitly stated to be more or less accurate, but that is not conclusive. While I personally can not speak for SWH from personal experience, I do know that the Zamorak Godsword special has surprising accuracy. I do, however, have a reason to believe that the Statius Warhammer benefits from increased accuracy on its special attacks - see the posts above, where people familiar with this particular weapon, who have used this particular weapon, and who have seen this particular weapon used comment on its rather high accuracy, even on a monster with insanely high crush defense.

 

2) I don't see any rational reason for Jagex to specifically exclude the SWH. Where did Jagex ever declare the SWH a specialist weapon and the chaotic weapons general use? Jagex has never taken steps against the use of PvP equipment outside of PvP before. There's no more reason to believe they'll exclude the SWH than they'll exclude the Chaotic Maul, other than personal bias. In fact, these two items share many similarities. Both are quite difficult to obtain by the typical player's standards. Both degrade over time, requiring upkeep in the form of additional purchases or recharges. Both have fairly high skill requirements. There's simply no reason to believe Jagex will prohibit them specifically. While it's possible, it's just as possible for them to prohibit chaotic weapons altogether, that is to say, not very likely.

 

i explicitly stated that my assumptions are assumptions and even dubious ones that that. i have repeatedly said that we do not know. we can only talk in vague terms. i even said "most likely" in the original post; i never claimed certainty. what we do know, as i originally mentioned, is that SWH spec is extremely expensive.

 

1) proof. give me evidence, some kind of log of accuracy. test this claim or it is just superstition to me. before soak, i thought magic defense affected korasi specs for the longest time because of my experiences with it. i was wrong; observations like these often come from superstition and no clearly delinated data.

 

2) SWH is 9M an hour and chaotics are 100k an hour. is that not specialist to you? how many people use chaotics? SWH? regardless, it's still just a matter of opinion. we have no idea what restrictions jagex might place. often their rules are really random - for example, corp and spears

[Silmandra]

Chaotics are 200k per hour.

[Bladewing]

chaotics are about 60-65k per hour per monster attacking you

[TheAncient]

chaotics are about 60-65k per hour per monster attacking you

 

also has something to do with monster level, my guess

 

my cks degrades bout 15% per 2.5h at dk's where like 2-7 things are ttacking me at once; 60k/(hr*monster) would have a much higher degrade rate