Chaotic Rapier vs Longsword

[Obtaurian]

Well, the discussion of what is "best" normally turns out to be an argument based on personal opinion. Which is why i worded my post the way i did. Generally referencing the whole CR/CLS debate.

 

But, since it's already been proven that the CR is general better then the CLS, i find it funny that topics like this are still made and discussed about a lot.

 

What i would like to see is research of exactly how better CR is then CLS at training/boss hunting. And if in fact that the whip has better DPM then CLS at training. Like maybe EXP/hr figures.

 

Maybe someone has already done this research, I'm not quite sure. I haven't read this entire thread and i haven't really looked into other discussions on the forum.

 

This thread has been around since those weapons came out; it's part of the reason why we know that the CR is superior almost everywhere. There have been exact figures and numbers -- read the thread.

 

And like SirIzenhime said, this thread exists for the purpose of finding out which is better. The only people arguing opinions (as opposed to facts) are angry CLS owners who try to justify their purchase. Sounds a little like you, incidentally.

[green9090]

Quick question.

 

Given that I already have a Divine Spirit Shield, which would be the best choice, Chaotic Rapier or Longsword? Most people pretty much agree that Rapier/Defender is better than Longsword/Defender at GWD Bandos / Saradomin, but when it comes to including Divine, I've heard mixed answers. Some people say Longsword/Divine is significantly better than Rapier/Divine, others say they're pretty much even. Which is it, really, and how big is the difference?

 

I'm currently leaning Rapier, as I can use it for Slayer if I ever feel like it. Also, for solo-ing bosses, I can always bring and equip a defender if it looks like I need the extra damage output (read: get crashed).

At Bandos, in decent gear, rapier and divine is slightly, slightly better than longsword and divine. If your gear is a little more welfare, it might go slightly in the other direction. Really, Bandos is insanely near the turning point between the two weapons without defender (with defender the rapier is markedly better).

 

At Sara, longsword and divine wrecks rapier and divine. Longsword might also be slightly better than rapier with defender, but maul will wreck both in that case (there is no defense value at which either rapier and defender or maul won't be better than longsword and defender, barring slash weaknesses or crush/stab resistances).

[HexiledRazz]

Well, the discussion of what is "best" normally turns out to be an argument based on personal opinion. Which is why i worded my post the way i did. Generally referencing the whole CR/CLS debate.

 

But, since it's already been proven that the CR is general better then the CLS, i find it funny that topics like this are still made and discussed about a lot.

 

What i would like to see is research of exactly how better CR is then CLS at training/boss hunting. And if in fact that the whip has better DPM then CLS at training. Like maybe EXP/hr figures.

 

Maybe someone has already done this research, I'm not quite sure. I haven't read this entire thread and i haven't really looked into other discussions on the forum.

 

This thread has been around since those weapons came out; it's part of the reason why we know that the CR is superior almost everywhere. There have been exact figures and numbers -- read the thread.

 

And like SirIzenhime said, this thread exists for the purpose of finding out which is better. The only people arguing opinions (as opposed to facts) are angry CLS owners who try to justify their purchase. Sounds a little like you, incidentally.

 

 

I thought a common poster that i see like you would at least look at someone's levels before making accusations as to what chaotic they own.

 

Anyway, I'm pro rapier for when i finally to get 80 dungoneering. As it would be more suited for my needs.

 

I guess i should have given the thread a bit more of a look through before i posted. But i couldn't be asked to read over 70 pages #-o

 

I'll look for these statistics.

[bedman]

Quick question.

 

Given that I already have a Divine Spirit Shield, which would be the best choice, Chaotic Rapier or Longsword? Most people pretty much agree that Rapier/Defender is better than Longsword/Defender at GWD Bandos / Saradomin, but when it comes to including Divine, I've heard mixed answers. Some people say Longsword/Divine is significantly better than Rapier/Divine, others say they're pretty much even. Which is it, really, and how big is the difference?

 

I'm currently leaning Rapier, as I can use it for Slayer if I ever feel like it. Also, for solo-ing bosses, I can always bring and equip a defender if it looks like I need the extra damage output (read: get crashed).

At Bandos, in decent gear, rapier and divine is slightly, slightly better than longsword and divine. If your gear is a little more welfare, it might go slightly in the other direction. Really, Bandos is insanely near the turning point between the two weapons without defender (with defender the rapier is markedly better).

 

At Sara, longsword and divine wrecks rapier and divine. Longsword might also be slightly better than rapier with defender, but maul will wreck both in that case (there is no defense value at which either rapier and defender or maul won't be better than longsword and defender, barring slash weaknesses or crush/stab resistances).

Nice point, people seem to forget this sometimes.

Some people like to bring up the point that CLS is better than rapier at high defence bosses, because the extra accuracy makes up for the loss of 1 game tick (speed).

Well, then maul would be better than longsword for the exact same reason...

 

The only other factor that comes in, is the shield spot, and then we are at your point. Only if you really want to use that divine or DFS or whatever, you want to use a longsword over a maul.

[Quyneax]

The rapier would allow you to kill the minions faster, thus ssing while taking less damage. So I'd say that if Green didn't already take that into account, rapier wins even more.

[green9090]

The rapier would allow you to kill the minions faster, thus ssing while taking less damage. So I'd say that if Green didn't already take that into account, rapier wins even more.

Good point. Yeah, my analysis was strictly against the boss.

[xSxqPowerx]

As someone with rapier and longsword with divine, my feel-based analysis for bandos is that longsword has a slight edge over rapier when using divine. This would probably change with a defender.

But as noted above, minion kills are a LOT easier, allowing for more health from soul split between kills. It also means overload time is saved by doing the house tab trick for longer.

[sumondskull6]

As someone with rapier and longsword with divine, my feel-based analysis for bandos is that longsword has a slight edge over rapier when using divine. This would probably change with a defender.

But as noted above, minion kills are a LOT easier, allowing for more health from soul split between kills. It also means overload time is saved by doing the house tab trick for longer.

 

House tab trick..?

 

Wait, do you mean turning on build mode so that your overload time and prayer doesn't drain..?

Edited December 28, 2010 by sumondskull6

[xSxqPowerx]

As someone with rapier and longsword with divine, my feel-based analysis for bandos is that longsword has a slight edge over rapier when using divine. This would probably change with a defender.

But as noted above, minion kills are a LOT easier, allowing for more health from soul split between kills. It also means overload time is saved by doing the house tab trick for longer.

 

House tab trick..?

 

Wait, do you mean turning on build mode so that your overload time and prayer doesn't drain..?

Yep.

[Silmandra]

House tab trick?

[xSxqPowerx]

House tab trick?

When you click on the house options button your overload timer does not go down, boosted stats don't go down, etc.

So if minions are killed faster you can do this for longer, making the overloads last a bit longer. Not a huge advantage at bandos, but it is a cool trick to know.

[green9090]

House tab trick?

When you click on the house options button your overload timer does not go down, boosted stats don't go down, etc.

So if minions are killed faster you can do this for longer, making the overloads last a bit longer. Not a huge advantage at bandos, but it is a cool trick to know.

It is a pretty huge advantage in larger/faster teams and slow spawn worlds though. If you're quick about it you can sometimes almost double your overload timer.

[theotherscaper]

For some reason over all the posts, you all have forgotten the cannon argument. According to Zarfot, Chaotic longsword is better than Chaotic rapier because it makes the cannon more accurate (which I'm guessing is due to the higher stab bonus that CLS has).

 

And here's a link for proof:

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nXBiOS5NpeQ

 

So for slayer tasks that you hardly melee like daggs and cave crawlers, CLS would be the better choice.

[green9090]

For some reason over all the posts, you all have forgotten the cannon argument. According to Zarfot, Chaotic longsword is better than Chaotic rapier because it makes the cannon more accurate (which I'm guessing is due to the higher stab bonus that CLS has).

 

And here's a link for proof:

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nXBiOS5NpeQ

 

So for slayer tasks that you hardly melee like daggs and cave crawlers, CLS would be the better choice.

For dags, you don't want to use a chaotic anyway due to extremely high drain rate vs. negligible advantage.

 

For cave crawlers, sure, maybe. MAYBE. But it'll only be the tiniest bit better than the rapier, if at all. You lose a whole lot of melee DPS for that cannon DPS.

 

In fact, hell, if higher attack bonus is that big a deal for the cannon, wouldn't the MAUL be best? What's the rationale behind choosing CLS over rapier but not maul over CLS?

[Nifflin]

For some reason over all the posts, you all have forgotten the cannon argument. According to Zarfot, Chaotic longsword is better than Chaotic rapier because it makes the cannon more accurate (which I'm guessing is due to the higher stab bonus that CLS has).

 

And here's a link for proof:

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nXBiOS5NpeQ

 

So for slayer tasks that you hardly melee like daggs and cave crawlers, CLS would be the better choice.

For dags, you don't want to use a chaotic anyway due to extremely high drain rate vs. negligible advantage.

 

For cave crawlers, sure, maybe. MAYBE. But it'll only be the tiniest bit better than the rapier, if at all. You lose a whole lot of melee DPS for that cannon DPS.

 

In fact, hell, if higher attack bonus is that big a deal for the cannon, wouldn't the MAUL be best? What's the rationale behind choosing CLS over rapier but not maul over CLS?

 

A balance between character dps and cannon dps? So for example the loss of character dps which comes from choosing CLS over rapier is smaller then the gain in cannon dps, however the same would not be true to maul and CLS? Just speculation, I don't really know but that could explain it.

[green9090]

That would work if CLS was a good midpoint between rapier and maul, but it's worse than both. In max gear, maul is better than CLS at lower enemy defense than CLS is better than rapier, meaning that maul or rapier will always be better than CLS. That heavily implies that with a cannon you'd want to be choosing either rapier for melee DPS or maul for cannon DPS.

[xpx]

The difference between cannon accuracy with either cls or rapier is hardly noticeable and there hasn't been any real information about this as it's almost impossible to test the difference, and with the introduction of dragon defender cls might be better no more(if it ever was). If cannon accuracy really means that much then you'd want to use maul anyway, but as most cannonable monsters have really low defense already, the extra accuracy makes no difference at all.

[Quyneax]

One reason you'd want a slower, more accurate weapon, sacrificing dps, is that you are looting or kiting or ss flashing a lot. However in these cases the maul also has the advantage (that is, kiting zilyana, ss flashing graar and looting at mutated velds/crawlers are the only realy applications of this anyway).

[stonewall337]

For some reason over all the posts, you all have forgotten the cannon argument. According to Zarfot, Chaotic longsword is better than Chaotic rapier because it makes the cannon more accurate (which I'm guessing is due to the higher stab bonus that CLS has).

 

And here's a link for proof:

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nXBiOS5NpeQ

 

So for slayer tasks that you hardly melee like daggs and cave crawlers, CLS would be the better choice.

He also says he kills 5.5k of those an hour, which is faster then you can kill dags IIRC, which makes the difference.

[Quyneax]

5.5k cannonballs, 650 kills. 5.5k is like 8 effigies per hour :blink:.

[SirIzenhime]

One reason you'd want a slower, more accurate weapon, sacrificing dps, is that you are looting or kiting or ss flashing a lot. However in these cases the maul also has the advantage (that is, kiting zilyana, ss flashing graar and looting at mutated velds/crawlers are the only realy applications of this anyway).

 

You can Soul split Bandos with a rapier ;)

[stonewall337]

5.5k cannonballs, 650 kills. 5.5k is like 8 effigies per hour :blink:.

Think he said effigy every 50 mins or so.

[Obtaurian]

One reason you'd want a slower, more accurate weapon, sacrificing dps, is that you are looting or kiting or ss flashing a lot. However in these cases the maul also has the advantage (that is, kiting zilyana, ss flashing graar and looting at mutated velds/crawlers are the only realy applications of this anyway).

 

You can Soul split Bandos with a rapier ;)

 

That would be pretty dangerous, though. Maul is the same speed as Graar's melee attack, so you can guarantee that he'll never hit while you SS flash.

[SirIzenhime]

all you need is the right interval, you can guarantee he won't hit you

[xSxqPowerx]

With rapier I think you can do 3 flashes then wait one round, 3 flashes then wait, etc.