Efficiency

[SixFootOne]

 

 

@SixFootOne (Edited name)

I have no need to make excuses for myself. Dont make excuses for other people and their attitude.

 

Not making excuses for anyone. You can't seem to understand where anyone was coming from, i was explaining it to you. They had legitimate things to say, and got frustrated. No excuses there just telling you why.

 

Its their problem if their posts get hidden. Approx 2 pages of posts were removed with one insinuating that my post was raped by yours, which is a pretty disgusting way of stating something. I dont find this kind of thing acceptable but Ive heard this type of reference made before by teenagers trying to impress their friends.

 

Yes, some people took it too far. But that's not what i was trying to argue.

 

Ill read posts and Ill reply if they bring something good but if they just try to insult then I wont reply.

 

Well actually quite a few people posted plenty of legitimate things, you didn't seem to get any of it, so they insulted you after.

 

And didnt my lack of replies just drive em nuts last night?

 

Yes, when you are sitting here asking for adult conversations and real arguments, then someone presents them and you ignore them, what do you expect other then more insults?

 

If you are claiming you didnt see any insults in my direction then sorry but youre lying.

 

Well lets see here, proof you don't read.

 

People insulted you because you refuse to read posts, then you say things like, your point?

 

That's what i said... PEOPLE INSULTED YOU. So where exactly did i claim i didn't see any insult your way? Obliviously you didn't read my post.

 

There were very few legitimate points raised last night. If what you say is true, they wouldnt have been removed so dont blame the forum mod for other peoples poor behaviour.

 

Yes because grimy bunyip, xpx, pere... they had nothing to say but nonsense right? They made their points that apparently everyone else understood (given they are not getting insulted by anyone other then you) Onto the posts being hidden, as i said before, no one is perfect. I am not blaming anyone for poor behavior. Yes people said things to you that shouldn't have been said, but there were legit posts that were hidden. And well if we can't prove it, i will leave that argument here.

 

I think youll find the same people have done a poor show on this forum elsewhere tonight. Its the same crew time and time again who think its cool to try to bully anyone who disagrees with them. Pack-hunters with no balls to do things by themselves.

 

How much of this forum do you read? There are plenty of people presenting issues, arguments, and evidence to support them. Stop changing what they are saying and making it out to be a bully issue. This isn't the 3rd grade, this isn't the runescape official forums. It's here if anywhere, that you can have a great discussion (granted there is plenty of flaming, idiots, and things that plague the rest of the internet as well as here). But don't skew and generalize the people.

 

 

By the way pack hunters with no balls? You were looking for when you insult people... well there it is. Stop trying to defend yourself to make it seem like you are some sort of intelligent adult looking for a good discussion that has done nothing wrong (by the way, if you say you are not claiming to be perfect you are a hypocrite. People insult you, then you go on badgering them on how you want an adult conversation, but you sit there and insult right back). You are insulting people as well.(yes i understand you were insulted first, but you also sit there and try to turn it around on them)

 

I think youll find if you read my posts Ive actually supported the right for any player to play the game they want.

 

And i think if you read my posts you would see i never mentioned that.

 

Im also a supporter of self sufficiency. If anyone states they are efficient I ask them to justify why. If they dont elaborate, Ill ask again. I dont accept because I am.

 

Alright i understand that. But i think everyone's problem (well at least ob's) was he felt he did a good enough job justifying why he was efficient (as well as a few others)and to ask for anymore evidence is ridiculous. You didn't feel it was good enough, and well we know what came from that.

 

Hope this clears things up so that we can debate. Throw some points at me in an acceptable manner and Ill answer them no problem.

 

That's everyone's problem with you. Many posters provide their points in what seems to be across the board (other then you) acceptable manner. You go on saying they have no points, they start insulting you because every other poster understood this.

[Assume Nothing]

[hide]

 

 

@SixFootOne (Edited name)

I have no need to make excuses for myself. Dont make excuses for other people and their attitude.

 

Not making excuses for anyone. You can't seem to understand where anyone was coming from, i was explaining it to you. They had legitimate things to say, and got frustrated. No excuses there just telling you why.

 

Its their problem if their posts get hidden. Approx 2 pages of posts were removed with one insinuating that my post was raped by yours, which is a pretty disgusting way of stating something. I dont find this kind of thing acceptable but Ive heard this type of reference made before by teenagers trying to impress their friends.

 

Yes, some people took it too far. But that's not what i was trying to argue.

 

Ill read posts and Ill reply if they bring something good but if they just try to insult then I wont reply.

 

Well actually quite a few people posted plenty of legitimate things, you didn't seem to get any of it, so they insulted you after.

 

And didnt my lack of replies just drive em nuts last night?

 

Yes, when you are sitting here asking for adult conversations and real arguments, then someone presents them and you ignore them, what do you expect other then more insults?

 

If you are claiming you didnt see any insults in my direction then sorry but youre lying.

 

Well lets see here, proof you don't read.

 

People insulted you because you refuse to read posts, then you say things like, your point?

 

That's what i said... PEOPLE INSULTED YOU. So where exactly did i claim i didn't see any insult your way? Obliviously you didn't read my post.

 

There were very few legitimate points raised last night. If what you say is true, they wouldnt have been removed so dont blame the forum mod for other peoples poor behaviour.

 

Yes because grimy bunyip, xpx, pere... they had nothing to say but nonsense right? They made their points that apparently everyone else understood (given they are not getting insulted by anyone other then you) Onto the posts being hidden, as i said before, no one is perfect. I am not blaming anyone for poor behavior. Yes people said things to you that shouldn't have been said, but there were legit posts that were hidden. And well if we can't prove it, i will leave that argument here.

 

I think youll find the same people have done a poor show on this forum elsewhere tonight. Its the same crew time and time again who think its cool to try to bully anyone who disagrees with them. Pack-hunters with no balls to do things by themselves.

 

How much of this forum do you read? There are plenty of people presenting issues, arguments, and evidence to support them. Stop changing what they are saying and making it out to be a bully issue. This isn't the 3rd grade, this isn't the runescape official forums. It's here if anywhere, that you can have a great discussion (granted there is plenty of flaming, idiots, and things that plague the rest of the internet as well as here). But don't skew and generalize the people.

 

 

By the way pack hunters with no balls? You were looking for when you insult people... well there it is. Stop trying to defend yourself to make it seem like you are some sort of intelligent adult looking for a good discussion that has done nothing wrong (by the way, if you say you are not claiming to be perfect you are a hypocrite. People insult you, then you go on badgering them on how you want an adult conversation, but you sit there and insult right back). You are insulting people as well.(yes i understand you were insulted first, but you also sit there and try to turn it around on them)

 

I think youll find if you read my posts Ive actually supported the right for any player to play the game they want.

 

And i think if you read my posts you would see i never mentioned that.

 

Im also a supporter of self sufficiency. If anyone states they are efficient I ask them to justify why. If they dont elaborate, Ill ask again. I dont accept because I am.

 

Alright i understand that. But i think everyone's problem (well at least ob's) was he felt he did a good enough job justifying why he was efficient (as well as a few others)and to ask for anymore evidence is ridiculous. You didn't feel it was good enough, and well we know what came from that.

 

Hope this clears things up so that we can debate. Throw some points at me in an acceptable manner and Ill answer them no problem.

 

That's everyone's problem with you. Many posters provide their points in what seems to be across the board (other then you) acceptable manner. You go on saying they have no points, they start insulting you because every other poster understood this.

[/hide]

 

Well, he did respond to my posts, so I can assume that he does actually read posts.

 

As for the xp thing for me; It really depends on the skill, and level of loathing I have for it really. If I can get Summoning Xp through Nail Beasts 5 times faster, but collecting those stupid nails are a [bleep], I'd rather train via Yaks/Titans.

[Chayliel]

Let me try to take this absolutely preposterous debate in a more reasonable direction:

 

Obviously we can agree that people, regardless of what they like to do, can arbitrarily have fun doing whatever they want however they want it in almost any situation. Let's get real here, people spend real money on real junk every day of our lives, such as televisions over 40 inches, or McDonalds. People also work at seemingly punitive jobs, not necessarily low-pay, but generally professions and crafts that could be considered quite useless to the general populace, or serve no purpose other than the entertainment of specific individuals or colleagues therein, such as theoretical physicists. This is where I'm going to try to draw the line, because it's not the actual efficiency or meaningfulness of the task we're actually examining, but rather the point at which reasonable suddenly transcends logic, and simply turns into what could be perceived as lame, unnecessary, "stupid," or the veritable wall of insults seemingly loaded into the humorously flared blunderbuss we call chat. (Much like this post, and this topic)

 

For example, Johnny is busy collecting money. Calculating the average costs of training every skill to 99 and then some keeping in mind buyable skills and time factored into them, Let's just say we're gonna spend around 7-10 billion Runescape coins. It's a realistic number, regardless of what anyone thinks, because Runescape is economically illogical on it's own, and the numbers follow suit. Let's also factor in a good 3-5 billion for purchasing items just for the sake of having them, such as spirit shields, or party hats. Johnny, however, has more than this amount, with absolutely no plans to spend ANY of it at any time. What's the point? It's silly.

 

Another example, our hero Johnny is SICK and TIRED of training runecrafting, even with the most efficient method of RCing (Ourania altar in some opinions). So, Johnny starts grinding away, to the point it begins cutting into his social life, his sleep, and his health. We've all seen it happen, and this is where efficiency completely blocks the fun aspect. You're no longer training for the sake of training, it's just ridiculous now.

 

So, recapping, 5m for a berserker ring isn't a bad idea. Sitting there amassing more money than you need for the sake of amassing money is a bad idea. Likewise, training RC because you want the level is a pretty good idea, whereas grinding away at it out of a misplaced sense of need is a bad idea.

[Assume Nothing]

Let me try to take this absolutely preposterous debate in a more reasonable direction:

 

Obviously we can agree that people, regardless of what they like to do, can arbitrarily have fun doing whatever they want however they want it in almost any situation. Let's get real here, people spend real money on real junk every day of our lives, such as televisions over 40 inches, or McDonalds. People also work at seemingly punitive jobs, not necessarily low-pay, but generally professions and crafts that could be considered quite useless to the general populace, or serve no purpose other than the entertainment of specific individuals or colleagues therein, such as theoretical physicists. This is where I'm going to try to draw the line, because it's not the actual efficiency or meaningfulness of the task we're actually examining, but rather the point at which reasonable suddenly transcends logic, and simply turns into what could be perceived as lame, unnecessary, "stupid," or the veritable wall of insults seemingly loaded into the humorously flared blunderbuss we call chat. (Much like this post, and this topic)

 

For example, Johnny is busy collecting money. Calculating the average costs of training every skill to 99 and then some keeping in mind buyable skills and time factored into them, Let's just say we're gonna spend around 7-10 billion Runescape coins. It's a realistic number, regardless of what anyone thinks, because Runescape is economically illogical on it's own, and the numbers follow suit. Let's also factor in a good 3-5 billion for purchasing items just for the sake of having them, such as spirit shields, or party hats. Johnny, however, has more than this amount, with absolutely no plans to spend ANY of it at any time. What's the point? It's silly.

 

Another example, our hero Johnny is SICK and TIRED of training runecrafting, even with the most efficient method of RCing (Ourania altar in some opinions). So, Johnny starts grinding away, to the point it begins cutting into his social life, his sleep, and his health. We've all seen it happen, and this is where efficiency completely blocks the fun aspect. You're no longer training for the sake of training, it's just ridiculous now.

 

So, recapping, 5m for a berserker ring isn't a bad idea. Sitting there amassing more money than you need for the sake of amassing money is a bad idea. Likewise, training RC because you want the level is a pretty good idea, whereas grinding away at it out of a misplaced sense of need is a bad idea.

I call this the toppling point. Efficiency is NOT just about grinding your ass off. Efficiency, factors in fun. If you are no longer enjoying the activity, then it is no longer fun, and thus, no longer efficient.

 

Edit - End of break, I'll post more in roughly an hour and a half.

[CaJ]

We got two topics going about this issue. Same responses...

 

Lovely...

[Troacctid]

Another example, our hero Johnny is SICK and TIRED of training runecrafting, even with the most efficient method of RCing (Ourania altar in some opinions). So, Johnny starts grinding away, to the point it begins cutting into his social life, his sleep, and his health. We've all seen it happen, and this is where efficiency completely blocks the fun aspect. You're no longer training for the sake of training, it's just ridiculous now.

The obvious response is that Johnny has misevaluated his most efficient moneymaker and needs to reexamine his value of time accordingly.

[Golvellius]

The people I do have a problem with are people who give poor advice on the H&A forums. This includes people who say, for example, that woodcutting magics is good money and will make you mils on the way to 99 woodcutting. While technically true, it's still a poor moneymaker relative to many other method of training or making money. Feel free to play your own way, but there are "best" ways to do everything.

 

I don't know this magical noob who runs around telling everybody that cutting magics and fishing sharks is the best way to get xp or money.

But, I do see lots of players actually doing that in game.

Some of them are DIY players, other are little kids, some actually enjoy the activity, and some are afking.

Its not surprising that somebody would get on these forums who does that and suggest it to somebody else looking for ideas.

But I'm not going to go all clown-time on the thread with "JESUS YOUR DOING IT WRONG. L2B_EFFICIENT".

 

To put an end to this argument, I have devised a clever formula to calculate efficiency

 

Fun = Efficiency for self

 

No but rly

 

Efficiency = (Maximum Amount of Money You Can Make/Hr) - (Money You're Making/Losing Right Now/Hr) / (Experience/Hour) is the formula, get it straight.

 

http://runescape.wikia.com/wiki/Efficiency

 

Ha, I was wondering how such wide spread butchery of the word began.

This may be it.

I was under the impression that RS wiki has decent information, but clearly this is a hack application of something copied from a freaking economics book.

This is the applied math approach to the age old problem of:

Do I keep making what I make, do I make something else, do I move all manufacturing to china and cash out with my golden parachute?

 

The implicit statement that nobody here seems to read is that you will be doing the thing that gets you your "value of time" all the time.

Your only evaluating the impact on your bank statement with regards to not doing it for something else.

Nothing more.

Its about making gp, not about fun.

For a video game that is just ridiculous; it's monotonous, it's job-like, and without a doubt its not necessary.

I work to live not live to work.

The advice that nobody wants here: "Live a little and stop finding excuses to live at the tormented demons or frost dragons."

 

Good news, I'm out.

I've had enough jollies here.

You clowns can have fun writing another 3 pages of idiotic arguments that will just magically vanish. :wink:

[Guest jrhairychest]

@SixFootOne

I think we are now past this point but I’ll respond as you’ve taken some time on the subject.

 

I take exception that you legitimise poor behaviour on the part of others, excusing it as if some fmod made a mistake in removing posts, state that if someone doesn’t understand something they deserve to be insulted. Where are you going with this? Will I now be accused of making them write their responses? I now just ignore them and debate the posts that bring something into the debate. Ignoring it does drive the pack hunters nuts. It doesn’t give the attention the posters crave and it wastes their time posting. It’s not all bad. Some do come out of the mob mentality occasionally and it’s great to see because they do put some good stuff forward.

 

You trivialise the issue of pack hunting as if it’s some sort of school prank that goes on with young kids. That is an out of touch look on it and you’re so wrong. What is so clever about a mob mentality and playing up to it? If they think they can get away on it here they think they’ll get away with it in real life. If you think it is so trivial then tell that to the parents of kids who have committed suicide because of things like this. On-line bullying has become such a problem that sites like Facebook have started to take it seriously. It is also part of the UK government’s Safeguarding strategy for Young People and Vulnerable Adults. I suggest you take this issue a little more seriously.

 

You ask me if I read forums. Yes I do. No surprise that the same group drew this responses elsewhere. This one really hit the spot, and no surprise, it involves some of those you imply as innocent:

The editorial staff is made of volunteers, treat it as such. There will be some articles one will disagree with, and one is welcome to post in a respectable manner.

 

However, what I see is a few users going beyond constructive criticism, instead they are harassing Racheya, no ifs or buts about it, it's harassment. If it continues, it will be treated as such (1 warning, 2nd offense is a ban).

 

A few things that really disappointed me about this thread, friends being called in to help argue an argument, not a discussion.

 

You take exception to the fact that I think pack hunters have no balls? The irony is you care more about me making the statement than considering its meaning.

 

Don’t take it personally that I didn’t respond directly to your post. In light of how it was disgustingly portrayed I really didn’t want to read it. Not your fault or mine, just the way it is.

 

@Not_trolling

Lol an interesting viewpoint about the level of loathing about a skill. Puts a new look on it. Is that an outlook on all skills or just the summoning as you do state the fun factor is important in a later post.

 

Not that keen on summoning myself and I’m totally poor at it, mainly because I hardly do combat these days. It feels like Santa has given me a christmas present when I level it.

 

@Ring_World

You made me cringe with your first paragraph. Not because I disagree with it but because when I first started mining....That was me too. Gleefully running to and from the Varrock mining area.For ultra cringe factor.........and please, I didn’t know any better...........After I’d mined a inventory of tin/copper I’d go smith it in Lumby then go back. :oops:

 

I agree DIY is not for everyone. I just prefer the skill associations that go with it but that’s just my way of thinking. Levelling skills together where possible. I’d never be happy having 99 smith then looking at my mining level at something like level 60 or 70.

 

I also agree there’s good money to be made in other areas and for yourself and others that is the perfect solution to how you get your fun from playing. DIY doesn’t pay bad though as you profit from anything you do. Perhaps not as effective slapping monsters around for a living, but hey it pays the rent. Have you tried doing this method yourself or did you decide it just wasn’t for you anyway?

[homer205]

I'm going to tentatively wade into this debate, I haven't read all of the thread but I've seen most of it (about 75%). I don't check it regularly enough to see the posts that were deleted but I'll just say that as it's impossible to determine/prove unless you have screenshots (which you wouldn't be able to post anyway) so arguments on that point should cease.

 

Going to start off with my view on the meaning of efficiency, per dictionary.com: accomplishment of or ability to accomplish a job with a minimum expenditure of time and effort.

To me, if I am enjoying something then it requires little effort (regardless of actual clicking/attention involved) as my enjoyment makes me forget/disregard the effort. People also tend to associate time with effort, this means that if they have a task (generally a skill or making money) which they don't want to complete then they have 4 options:

1. Don't train that skill/gather money.

2. Find the fastest (generally deemed boring or expensive) way to achieve their goal.

3. Use a slow, (generally deemed enjoyable) way to reach their goal.

4. Find a middle ground between options 2 and 3.

 

Of this, options 2, 3 and 4 can be considered efficient, though different people will dicsover what option they prefer on their own. Option 1 can't be considered efficient since nothing has been achieved. Not_trolling touched on the weighing up of which option to take when he spoke about taking a boring path which had 5 times the xp/h of an enjoyable one. Jr responded by saying he would take option 4, sometimes however, there is no middle ground and a choice has to be made, the resentment (on both sides) of those that choose differently seems to be part of the argument on this thread, after all, people tend not to like being disagreed with. As I previously mentioned, sometimes option 4 doesn't exist, likewise, sometimes people do not enjoy any methods of training a skill, in this case they either don't train it or choose the fastest method. As there was obviously a reason why the goal was set, people choose to take the fast option (since they don't enjoy either option, effort can be considered equal) in this case, being efficient isn't fun. If however, any of the options which result in the completion of the goal are chosen, and the fastest method which is enjoyable is chosen, then that method can be considered efficient. Finding the correct personal balance between the effort caused through actual attention/clicking and effort caused by the boredom/enjoyment (in enjoyments case it would be negative effort) is what each person needs to do for each goal in order to be efficient.

 

Because we can't determine via a forum which activities people find enjoyable (unless they take the time to specifiy which few do) people disregard enjoyment when responding to help and advice topics. Those that don't and give options which prioritises what they enjoy (assuming it will be the same as the op) tend to give poor advice (unless their enjoyed method happens to be the best, when it's not you get the advice like picking flax/cutting trees for cash).

 

One thing that seems to be forgotten when people describe no lifing/extremely attention requiring methods as not being what is meant by efficiency, for some people they can be (if that's their goal) and thus they enjoy that, this shouldn't be disregarded or else you're basically doing what jr is complaining about in regards to the majority (of posters in this thread) view of his training methods except about methods which result in higher output.

 

I hope that's enough to warrant a reply as I feel I've put forward my views on the topic sufficiently for the time being. In regards to the flaming which has gone on in this thread, both sides are guilty, while I personally don't have a side (you're all quite entertaining really). Not going to go back through the whole thread to do this (which is a shame really, because there's some great hypocrisy if you search for it, but it'd take too long).

 

To jr:

Sixfoot didn't say that the moderators had made a mistake, he merely said that it can happen. This is implication, if you argue against it then you are legitimising it. In this case you have to accept that all parties can do this (which has happened in response to your posts such as "your point?" and asking for mature arguments). I believe Vulxai summed this up quite well:

Agreed, a debate is only a debate when there are points to go on, however, saying to let you know when they want to have an adult debate insinuate's they are minor children, which can be insulting, and saying they're playing adolescent tag-team can also be insulting. You could have just as easily said something along the lines of "Please point out the points you are trying to make" or something along those lines.

Also you need to stop using multiple people disagreeing with you as a point in your favour, you can't just assume that they are working together judging by the times I've seen grimy and obtaurian online I'd doubt it anyway).

 

To the pro efficiency group (there's too many of you for me to bother attributing posts indivdually, if it doesn't apply to you then disregard it):

While many of you seem to be frustrated that your posts are being ignored despite providing legitimate discussion, rather than flaming, why not quote your original post in order for it to be part of your new post so it can be replied to rather than than you being accused of flaming. If you add a summary then it should theoretically be understood by those willing to put in a reasonable amount of time reading/comprehending it (unless they're stupid or the post is deliberately confusing). Alternately you could ask which points there is confusion over, allowing you to explain them and get the discussion you wanted in the next reply.

 

I think this post has gone on long enough and hope to get some responses.

[T. Skill]

I used to play for "efficiency" until I realized that the fun in completing goals (for me at least) was the process of working towards achievement, and not the achievement itself. So sure it may take me longer than someone playing efficiently to accomplish my goals, but at least I'll have fun doing it my way. That is not to say that someone playing for efficiency isn't having fun, though.

[Guest jrhairychest]

@Ring world

Sometimes I do miss the innocence of the newbie days lol.

 

The LRC doesn’t do a lot for me. With Iron and gold prices roughly the same I’m quite happy to powermine the iron and trade it for gold. I mine in a nice quiet area too so it’s peaceful.

 

I think most enjoy gaining XP fast at some points in the game but it’s just finding the right balance of choosing something for myself that’s enjoyable. Hence agility in Brimhaven and thieving master farmers which was good cash at the time, rather than doing PP.

 

I think DIY, like most of the other stuff is pretty subjective. I just hate looking at the connected skill (wc with say fletch) and think ‘grrrrr’. It just doesn’t look right. I’m also a skinflint so I don’t like spending cash on things I can get myself. It may seem slow but I think in the long run it serves me well and I’m in no rush to 99 things. It’s just as and when.

 

Did you burn yourselves out going for fletch? I think putting pressure on yourself to do something like that tends to kill the motivation so you end up not doing it, or doing it but having a hatred for the skill. Are you sure you’re not DIY, as your stats are fairly balanced?

 

@homer205

I couldn’t find much in the first part of your post as you’re not exactly committing to anything here. It’s very middle of the road. You’re elaborating on your own definitions of efficiency/fun/subjectivity. What side of the fence are you on? If you’re efficient what makes you an efficient player? Are you more a fun player who does what he wants no matter how long it takes. Are you absolutely efficient and must get that 99 in as little time as possible? Give me your reasons why you do it and why/if it’s better for you. You are asking other posters in this debate to elaborate and post their original claims to efficiency( you wont get much), which is commendable, but you won’t commit yourself.

 

I commend you looking at the Jr Vs others aspects of this post. I also take it you've recently read the recent tipit times post here. Ironically enough, I haven’t seen yourself or SixfootOne there. Naturally of course, I shall look forward to both your posts on there, condemning the behaviour judging by your stances on player behaviour.

 

@Xara

At least you learned by the experience of it.

[Assume Nothing]

Lol an interesting viewpoint about the level of loathing about a skill. Puts a new look on it. Is that an outlook on all skills or just the summoning as you do state the fun factor is important in a later post.

 

Not that keen on summoning myself and Im totally poor at it, mainly because I hardly do combat these days. It feels like Santa has given me a christmas present when I level it.

 

Almost every skill has the same outlook. Take fishing for example. I can either; Fish whilst talking at Otto's place, Fish at Piscatoris, Flyfish at Shilo with a bank, Fish Sharks, or Fish Rocktails.

 

I find Monkfishing slow and often too tedious, with little clicking to do, but spots constantly changing. I hate it, because I have to pay attention to it, but I barely need to do anything (So it's not a watch youtube thing either). Also, it's slow xp.

 

Fly Fishing with a bank; Requires too much running. I dislike it because again, it's not powerfishing, it's a repetition of a pattern of clicks, and spots change too much here too.

 

Shark Fishing: Far too slow. Checking on the Xp and finding out you've only gained 2000 fishing xp the past 5 minutes is very discouraging, and isn't even good profit.

 

Fish Rocktails; Haven't done too much of it, but it's chill and I like it. Not the greatest Xp in the world, but hey, I like it. Reasonable profit too

 

Barbarian fishing; Ah. Pretty much the same as flyfishing, but you get to drop fishies instead. I actually somewhat enjoy it, because the xp gained is fast (which is good, because if I want a higher level, I obviously want to see a little progress), and because there is something for me to actually do. And since spots don't move constantly, I can watch youtube clips or talk in clanchat between dropping periods.

 

Seeing above, I can say that fun is an important factor. Not sure if it's the best example in the world, but I do Rocktail fishing not because it's the best xp, it's because I like it. Although, there is a correlation between how much I like a method and xp/h, I don't always pick the better xp/h. I'm sure there are better examples, but I need sleep about now so I can't provide any right now. Perhaps I'll post tomorrow

[homer205]

@Jr

Firstly I don't consider myself and efficient or DIY player. I used to DIY but burnt out that and stopped that long ago (haven't gained a fletching level since prior to constructions release). If I hadn't taken the time to cut my logs, gather natures etc, then I may have 99 in it. This is just my personal view, shows how burning out on a skill can go both ways. I don't really consider myself efficient, when I slay (my favourite skill) I don't use a cannon (though I have previously) and don't use piety/wouldn't use turmoil if I had the level. While it's argued that its slower (and therefore requires more effort) because I enjoy slaying in this way I discount the added effort/time it takes. I'm quite glad you couldn't tell which side of the fence I was sitting on from my first post, that was the idea, so people would judge based on my points rather than whether I agreed/disagreed with them.

 

In my example of my preferred skill, the way I train it this way is because I tend to browse other websites while doing most activities in runescape. If I was using piety then I would feel obligated to pay full attention which would decrease my enjoyment (as it's now only coming from runescape as opposed to runescape + something else). Even if it worked out to be more profitable/faster looking at other websites and using piety, because I wouldn't be getting the full benefit of piety (slow to attack the next monster, turn off prayer when not in combat etc) I would feel as though I was wasting my gp. This feeling would override any statistical improvements gained from piety and make me feel worse about training slayer. To avoid this, no piety is used even though it's slower. Also, I tend to avoid newer training methods, preferring to stick with what I know though slowly changing over time.

 

I wasn't meaning that others should say what their preferred setups are, only that they need to decide them independantly and that help and advice topics will tend to only give option 1 unless this is excluded in the post.

 

I read the tip it times article (though I had been following this thread previously). I didn't however read the accompanying thread, after following the link I saw lots of arguments and that it had been locked so I didn't take the time to read those posts carefully, though it seems racheya is being flamed from what I did read.

 

@Xara

For me, there are skills I don't like, yet I want a certain level in (77 runecrafting for bloods in dungeoneering for example). Since I don't enjoy the path, I want to take the option which involves the least training. For me this means genie lamps (though no zmi, like I said, slow to switch training methods). For me, I'll have more fun once I'm at the level than actually training it, this is only for some skills though.

 

@Not_Trolling

I think this is a good example of what you were talking about. I can see different people taking each of those options. They all have their own advantages and disadvantages which can be worked around (money can be made in other ways for example). That each of these methods seems to be relatively popular to different portions of the runescaping society supports their merits. The xp/h, gp/h and fun/h of all different methods is also affected by these values for other activities, which means there's a wide array of choices for what to do as each person has to weigh up all of the different factors. Don't forget also that sometimes you're just more in the mood for one type of training over another even if it isn't usually that way.

[waylon]

I quite enjoyed the Efficiency Wars article. It reminds me a lot of a previous article about a time when some friends decided to hold a woodlands camp-out within Runescape. While I might not participate in something like that, I very much appreciated that there are people who want to do such things and who create and find such opportunities within the system. It makes me wonder how much the "emergent gameplay" tools sold by Faruq in Al Kharid are really used.

 

The Efficiency Wars and the campout article have some similar themes that are also found in Drive: The Surprising Truth about What Motivates Us by Daniel H. Pink. I just bought the book and began reading it. I'm only 30 pages into it, so far, but it's about intrinsic motivation as opposed to extrinsic motivation. The "efficiency wars" in some ways seem to work very much off extrinsic motivation, whereas "emergent gameplay" seems to match intrinsic motivation more closely.

 

Yeah, I grind, and when I do, I feel like a slave, even though nobody is forcing me to play this game. But I definitely grind because I want the rewards of profit in terms of gp or the exp needed to gain additional abilities within a Skill. I ought to credit Frederick Winslow Taylor. He was an engineer in the early 1900's who invented "scientific management," the concepts of using rewards to encourage desired behaviors and using punishments to discourage undesirable behaviors. I learned this from the book.

 

Despite its greater sophistication and higher aspirations, Motivation 2.0 still wasn't exactly ennobling. It suggested that, in the end, human beings aren't much different from horses--that the way to get us moving in the right direction is by dangling a crunchier carrot or wielding a sharper stick. But what this operating system lacking in enlightenment, it made up for in effectiveness. It worked well--extremely well. Until it didn't.

 

That's a quote from pages 19-20 of Drive. "Motivation 2.0" is just Pink's term or metaphor for the system of rewards and punishments that motivates human beings to be productive in society.

 

I don't remember when or where it was posted by Jagex, but at one point they said something about developing a style of leveling up skills that didnt revolve around endless repetitive meaningless tasksor perhaps it might be more accurate to say tasks that become meaningless in and of themselves if they are only performed to gain a long-term extrinsic reward. Im not sure if Daemonheim was meant to be this new system or whether Daemonheim is merely a prototype experiment to find other means of exp leveling. If so, Daemonheim can certainly be a grind, too, but the randomness involved does make it less straightforwardly repetitive and simplistic.

 

This new system, whatever it is or looks like, is supposed to be a part of Jagexs sci-fi MMO Stellar Dawn. I wish them well, and I hope it works. I also hope, if it works and proves to be more fun than the usual model, that it will be ported over into Runescape in some ways.

 

It's an interesting concept, regardless, that extrinsic reward causes people to devalue work or that extrinsic reward turns play into drudgery. And efficiency is just another way to minimize "necessary" (?) drudgery. Isn't it interesting how so many of you (and me) enjoyed being a new player, even though we were doing things "inefficiently." Maybe it's only when we have to compete against others for rank or reward that stategizing for minimizing our labor is part of what takes the fun out of it.

[Assume Nothing]

Either someone merged the posts or someone copy pasta'd. We've been through most of this, why bring it up again.

[waylon]

Either someone merged the posts or someone copy pasta'd. We've been through most of this, why bring it up again.

 

If you're referring to me, yes, I did copy and paste my previous post to here from another thread that was locked. I thought this would be a good place for people to discuss the ideas involved, since the other thread pretty much seemed to have devolved into an empasse.

 

Has anybody read the book I mentioned? Drive?

[Youmu]

So... the conclusions?

 

From this thread, efficiency has several different definitions:

- Efficiency is the best method to achieve a particular goal (speed, money, or a combo of both).

- Efficiency is the method that involves the least effort. This may be AFK in some cases.

- Efficiency is your own preferred method. In other words, fun. This is often ignored when accounting for efficiency.

 

However, efficiency also factors in your ability to do particular methods. Boss hunting may be one of the best methods of cash in the game, but it can be very hard. Skilling is an extremely easy way to make cash, but it doesn't give you much in return.

 

For example, a level 3 is obviously not capable of combat moneymakers, so he/she has to resort to skilling. For the level 3, skilling is the most efficient method of moneymaking.

 

However, a person with maxed combats, max gear, overloads and turmoil has the capability to bosshunt, therefore boss hunting is the most efficient method of moneymaking.

 

Of course, all this falls short to merching, which absolutely anyone can do. However, doing so requires great knowledge of how the economy works, and unfortunately not a lot of people have that knowledge. This means, a method is only efficient if you are smart with it.

 

So the main conclusion?

 

Efficiency is your ability to use the best methods possible (gp, xp, time saved) THAT ARE AVAILABLE TO YOU AND YOUR SKILLS.

 

All the "fun" people can gtfo. Remember, fun is subjective, but that has no effect on efficiency at all.

[Youmu]

Fun is part of the equation too

 

a lot of people hate BA and wont use it for agility training, its not efficient if you hate it because your more likely to burn out along the way.

 

In fact if someone enjoys Brimhaven course its better to do that then BA if they hate it and monkey course if they hate that too.

 

While fun is subjective, it is a key part of the efficiency equation that is unique to the player

Oops, I left out another part of the efficiency equation: the people involved.

 

I'm assuming people hate BA and dungeoneering because of their emphasis on TEAMWORK, a skill that a lot of Runescapers unfortunately seems to lack. I guess that relates to another point in my above post: a method is only efficient if you're smart with it.

 

With the BA example, I'm going to assume people aren't smart with BA. Therefore, a lot of people deem BA as inefficient and use courses like Brimhaven instead. (Those tickets are beastly too, especially for a bonus exp weekend! :o )

[999134]

Fun is subjective but its not that subjective, sure you might get the odd wierdo (who will respond to this post) who actually enjoys firemaking, whereas most people enjoy castle wars for example, and if not castle wars there is sure to be a minigame that you enjoy (that is the point in them after all).

 

Also being inefficient really isn't fun, refusing to quest and then getting 99 str on terrible gear because you find it "fun" is just stupid. You have wasted many many hours that the better gear would have saved you, compared to the few hours that would be needed to get a salve ammy or barrow gloves for example.

 

In my opinion efficiency is fun until you take it to extremes, for example people making bolts while firemaking or mousekey inv dropping. In the same way inefficiency taken to extremes is not fun, using a d med and some gold gloves from Canafis while killing rock crabs at level 120 all because you find it fun is plain stupidity and to put it bluntly, you suck.

[Youmu]

Well this applies to activities as well. Are you going to do them in an efficient manner (which you will need to if you want consistent wins), or are you just there for the hell of it, chillaxing?

 

And fun is subjective. If someone chooses to do something way inferior because they find it more fun, then they choose to be inefficient. I guess your example of rock crabs is a good showcase of this.

 

But my point still stands: player choice has NO effect on efficiency. It does not stop the best method (factually!) being the most efficient.

[waylon]

One good thing to note--efficiency is an ambiguous term in some sense. That doesn't mean we shouldn't use it, nor does it mean that I think efficiency is bad.

 

But efficiency is about making trade-offs to achieve desired ends. What do you want, and what cost are you willing to pay to get it? You can be efficient with time, with money, with materials, with experience point gain, or with mouse-clicks. Usually, you can't be perfectly efficient with all of them at once. So you pay the costs you're willing to pay in order get the goal you want.

 

In general, the common tactics or strategies are based around a concept called "maximal average"--or perhaps "minimal average" if we analyze things in terms of cost. What's the least I can pay in terms of time or money or materials or mouse-clicks in order to maximize my financial profits or my experience points? It's a balancing act of juggling multiple cost factors in order to get the greatest exp or gp gain. It's a ratio.

[Assume Nothing]

Well this applies to activities as well. Are you going to do them in an efficient manner (which you will need to if you want consistent wins), or are you just there for the hell of it, chillaxing?

 

And fun is subjective. If someone chooses to do something way inferior because they find it more fun, then they choose to be inefficient. I guess your example of rock crabs is a good showcase of this.

 

But my point still stands: player choice has NO effect on efficiency. It does not stop the best method (factually!) being the most efficient.

 

Hell, even efficiency is subjective. For example; In your eyes, me training with max gear, Overloads and Turmoil (with cannon) is a waste, in my eyes, it is the best way to play the game.

 

Player choice has a major effect on efficiency, would you really train the fastest way possible if you hated it so much you could die? There are people who loathe cannons and usages of potions, I know that for sure

[Bladewing]

training with overloads, turmoil, max gear, and cannon can be objectively shown to be more efficient than using full dragon a glory and a dfs. it is only once you factor personal preference that this "verdict" can change.

[Sir_Kurity]

Fun is subjective but its not that subjective, sure you might get the odd wierdo (who will respond to this post) who actually enjoys firemaking, whereas most people enjoy castle wars for example, and if not castle wars there is sure to be a minigame that you enjoy (that is the point in them after all).

 

I loled :thumbsup:

[Assume Nothing]

training with overloads, turmoil, max gear, and cannon can be objectively shown to be more efficient than using full dragon a glory and a dfs. it is only once you factor personal preference that this "verdict" can change.

 

No doubt it is a ton of xp per hour more then the latter, but how much did all that cost?

 

I think full slayer helm torags whip+defender,glory, supers + (optional:piety, or using clarity of thought/burst of strength) is efficient enough. There was a turmoil, overloads, yak, rapier guy slaying next to me and I was still killing at 2/3rd the speed he was. (oh yea he was 138 im 113 as well)

 

For boss fights its invaluable for training you dont need best in slot gear to be good.

 

 

So its still not objectively the most efficient as theres a huge upfront cost in time and money that simply might be overkill for the training, not to mention the hourly cost (200k for the rapier, more for the overload pot, and prayer pots *all slayers should cannon if they have cannonballs so thats not in the elite vs not*) its like a lvl 100 taking super pots for goblins, sure you can argue it allows you to kill them .43423423 of a second faster but its not worth it.

 

Since you can't make 4m/h, you wouldn't be able to judge. This is the thing about trade-off's