Dungeonsweepers (DGS) - Huge changes; read first post.

[notasoupbowl]

CONGRATS MC ON 120 LEECHING DNGS (L2KEY)

[Obtaurian]

Heads up to anyone looking to join this clan: I joined the cc and asked why they make range armor and yet complain about 3bo people making armour (which if you actually dged with them you know it doesn't happen very often) and instead of getting an answer I was simply kicked.

 

I'm surprised you don't know how to do this at 120 dungeoneering, but ranged armor can be made lossless WHILE killing monsters in a gd. Great for hexes and Kal'Ger floors. You wouldn't have been kicked if you had asked HOW to do it rather than tried to troll.

 

EDIT: Oh, just got the full story. You were actually trolling far more than that. Yeah, you were fair game. :thumbup:

[dukky]

Armor can be made losslessly too though, so why complain about people from 3bo making it? That was really my main point and I admit I was kind of trolling at first and even with that point, though in MY opinion, it's stupid to bind a blood neck far before 120 because so many people don't know how to use them properly and end up wasting food.

 

About you hating on 3bo, I can see where you are coming from and teams are sometimes bad, but you get more good teams than bad teams in my experience. One difference I've noticed though, looking through all the screenshots of fast floors in this thread is that people seem to die ALOT, and with the first death costing 13% xp, average 25 minute dungeons would have to 3 minues faster to make up for this. Once again in MY opinion it is beft to bind a plate over a blood neck unless you are very close to 120, and if i'd gotten my hex at a lower level (I got it at 119) I'd have thought twice about binding it too. On occult/warped floors it's very difficult to not die if keying with a blood neck/hex, and the loss of your own xp is really not worth the time, and if you want to avoid the death you would have to get your whole team tom ecome and tank the dangerours skill room or whateve, or use up alot of food, both of which will slow you down.

 

Honestly if you dg with 3bo for long enough you know who and who not to take and can get good teams all the time.

 

TL;DR: Imo platebody is the best 3rd bind (except hex/blood necks when close to 120), and this is from experience with blood neck and hex, not just because I say so.

[Obtaurian]

Metal armor CANNOT be made lossless unless you're telling me that in a room with a forge you can smelt bars and make items between 2h hits, but then you'd still need the prom ore, which you shouldn't need more than a handful of for ragers. Your time is much better spent making strong melee potions between GDs.

 

Every DGSer with a blood neck knows how to use it properly. Same goes for every third bind; if we didn't make it a point to optimize everyone's usage of their 3rd binds, we'd just tell them to get plates.

 

A lot of our keyers aren't worried about exp as much as floor times, so the rest of the team ends up getting 20-25 minute floors with few or no deaths while the keyer sacrifices his/her exp. This is a personal choice, though, and doesn't really have any bearing on the rest of the clan or keyers. Plenty of them do floors nearly as fast or as fast with no deaths.

 

Plates just aren't useful. It's not hard to simply avoid death if you really don't want to die.

[xpx]

Armor can be made losslessly too though, so why complain about people from 3bo making it? That was really my main point and I admit I was kind of trolling at first and even with that point, though in MY opinion, it's stupid to bind a blood neck far before 120 because so many people don't know how to use them properly and end up wasting food.

 

About you hating on 3bo, I can see where you are coming from and teams are sometimes bad, but you get more good teams than bad teams in my experience. One difference I've noticed though, looking through all the screenshots of fast floors in this thread is that people seem to die ALOT, and with the first death costing 13% xp, average 25 minute dungeons would have to 3 minues faster to make up for this. Once again in MY opinion it is beft to bind a plate over a blood neck unless you are very close to 120, and if i'd gotten my hex at a lower level (I got it at 119) I'd have thought twice about binding it too. On occult/warped floors it's very difficult to not die if keying with a blood neck/hex, and the loss of your own xp is really not worth the time, and if you want to avoid the death you would have to get your whole team tom ecome and tank the dangerours skill room or whateve, or use up alot of food, both of which will slow you down.

 

Honestly if you dg with 3bo for long enough you know who and who not to take and can get good teams all the time.

 

TL;DR: Imo platebody is the best 3rd bind (except hex/blood necks when close to 120), and this is from experience with blood neck and hex, not just because I say so.

I don't think the pictures on the thread well represent the average- 90% or more are keyers who have platebodies anyway or just people who enjoy hero keying and don't give a rats *** about deaths(Tui :twisted: ). DGS only has guidelines for DPS/wingmen binds, as it's clear that clearing gd's with 4 people isn't particularly dangerous and higher DPS is of critical importance. Platebodies are looked down upon as they are very selfish binds and hardly help the team at all(it's rare to see food be scarce for anyone but the keyer). Thus we have spend long time testing and calculating combinations of binds that actually benefit the team, while don't hurt the player much(only hurts them if they are unwilling to learn smart combat mechanics). It also doesn't help that 3bo is ignorant about new things for dungeoneering, and the recent change of desperado(which most if not all 3bo hexers were using) clearly proves that point.

 

It's funny how you so clearly admit that there are rubbish dungeoneers in 3bo and they do nothing about it, as it was something acceptable. DGS actually works on educating people and thus none of our higher(105+) is rubbish, and most are very, very good. I agree that the cream of the crop of 3bo(or rather 4bo) is better than the top of DGS, but the difference isn't significant and considering we accept people of all dungeoneering levels adds for a friendly and accepting community within the clan.

[VonMedo]

You guys are awesome,did 1-30 2 times today bc your so awesome =)

(was getting 12 xp second time lol)

hope ill get in clan one day <3

[pulli23]

Armor can be made losslessly too though, so why complain about people from 3bo making it? That was really my main point and I admit I was kind of trolling at first and even with that point, though in MY opinion, it's stupid to bind a blood neck far before 120 because so many people don't know how to use them properly and end up wasting food.

 

About you hating on 3bo, I can see where you are coming from and teams are sometimes bad, but you get more good teams than bad teams in my experience. One difference I've noticed though, looking through all the screenshots of fast floors in this thread is that people seem to die ALOT, and with the first death costing 13% xp, average 25 minute dungeons would have to 3 minues faster to make up for this. Once again in MY opinion it is beft to bind a plate over a blood neck unless you are very close to 120, and if i'd gotten my hex at a lower level (I got it at 119) I'd have thought twice about binding it too. On occult/warped floors it's very difficult to not die if keying with a blood neck/hex, and the loss of your own xp is really not worth the time, and if you want to avoid the death you would have to get your whole team tom ecome and tank the dangerours skill room or whateve, or use up alot of food, both of which will slow you down.

 

Honestly if you dg with 3bo for long enough you know who and who not to take and can get good teams all the time.

 

TL;DR: Imo platebody is the best 3rd bind (except hex/blood necks when close to 120), and this is from experience with blood neck and hex, not just because I say so.

 

You know EVERYONE can die once to shave 3 minutes of the time (and still the toal xp is higher).

So in total of 5 deaths the total xp is higher if you got 3 minutes of the floor times - and unless you're selfish it's good to die if it means you can shave a minute from the total time by dieing once as keyer.

 

For me personally, I don't mind about times, or about personal xp per hour: what I value most is the TOTAL xp/hour, or even better total "relative" xp per hour. (So for floor 30 I expect less xp/hour than 45) - focussing on the whole team. This means I don't mind dieing if it helps the team, though I do mind mindless rushing & dieing to just speed up everything.

 

I think for keyers a plate can be usefull, but what use has it for dpsers? - There's almost always much more food than can be aten, and if needed I'd die once at boss. - I've been able to do this from lv 80 - 100, why couldn't I do this 100 - 120?

 

I personally am thinking about binding gauntlets (though I'm really, really wondering - the closer I get the more I wonder), a rapier is just a bit "too much" for me too handle at the moment, swapping between surge box, rings & styles is about as much as I can do (while praying best). I'm unsure if I get personally real benefit from using rapier, also considering I have to use prome.

 

Gauntlets are "easier" to manage, giving a static dps boost to your main weapon.

 

However as prome is in both cases the best I can wield - and I actually can soon make both the rapier & gauntlets (yet not the plate) I sincerelly wonder if the plate would also be a viable option? - considering I'm not 99 defense and the plate might give me sufficient armour to "tank" those things such as lv 120 zombies?

[Nostar]

I have also thought about gaunts.

Would they be a viable option ?

I'd boost my 2 last def lvl's for primal gaunts.

 

Constantly switching between 3 weps can get really tiring at some times. :/

[xpx]

I have also thought about gaunts.

Would they be a viable option ?

I'd boost my 2 last def lvl's for primal gaunts.

 

Constantly switching between 3 weps can get really tiring at some times. :/

Gaunts are only an option with 99 def. Right now i'd rank 3rd binds for dgs as:

 

Cele cat > primal rapier > blood necklace > primal gauntlets > primal platebody

[pulli23]

But what without 99 attack/def/str?

[xpx]

But what without 99 attack/def/str?

staff....MAYBE prom rapier. Would really need a neck tbh.

[SirIzenhime]

Armor can be made losslessly too though, so why complain about people from 3bo making it? That was really my main point and I admit I was kind of trolling at first and even with that point, though in MY opinion, it's stupid to bind a blood neck far before 120 because so many people don't know how to use them properly and end up wasting food.

 

About you hating on 3bo, I can see where you are coming from and teams are sometimes bad, but you get more good teams than bad teams in my experience. One difference I've noticed though, looking through all the screenshots of fast floors in this thread is that people seem to die ALOT, and with the first death costing 13% xp, average 25 minute dungeons would have to 3 minues faster to make up for this. Once again in MY opinion it is beft to bind a plate over a blood neck unless you are very close to 120, and if i'd gotten my hex at a lower level (I got it at 119) I'd have thought twice about binding it too. On occult/warped floors it's very difficult to not die if keying with a blood neck/hex, and the loss of your own xp is really not worth the time, and if you want to avoid the death you would have to get your whole team tom ecome and tank the dangerours skill room or whateve, or use up alot of food, both of which will slow you down.

 

Honestly if you dg with 3bo for long enough you know who and who not to take and can get good teams all the time.

 

TL;DR: Imo platebody is the best 3rd bind (except hex/blood necks when close to 120), and this is from experience with blood neck and hex, not just because I say so.

 

 

Has a blood neck, notices NO difference in death counts since I unbound my plate.

Avoiding death is stupidly easy assuming you have a competent team (and don't get spammed Ramo's and Mercs)

If anything, my blood neck saves me deaths. If I'm low on hp, with no food in a hood safe GD (VERY COMMON), I just gather any meleer around, usually gain around 3 salves worth before the room is done, and then there's even food drops to add to that.

 

Armor really doesn't make all that much difference, unless you get a lot of it on. A plate isn't going to stop that saggitarian forgotten ranger from hitting 80+% of the time on you, it isn't going to stop that 143 brute from hitting a 400-500 on you before your prayer is on. And, with all the mages, shades and ghosts running around, your plate is even more crippling as with you, it's almost a REQUIREMENT to pray against them.

 

As for making armor losselessly, what losslessly means, is that when you're doing it, you're able to do other things, as mentioned earlier, making leather armor WHILE doing a GD.

The time spent using ores on a furnace and pounding them into bars, would be better spent buying an herb seed or two, cutting ent/grave and making staffs, clearing any gds that may be around, locating and looting chests, making an altar. Preping herblore pots (making UNFs + buying seconds.)

 

The only time I can see making armor as being fine, is if there's no GDs, you've found access ore (you need over 7 to be considered access ore btw), there's already an altar, enough herbs/seconds for 2 of every pot (5 range/melee for gd clearing), empowered fire staffs are made, an altar is made, and all gated keys are run.

 

In other words....making metal armor isn't a waste of time...about... <1% of the time.

 

Also, the goal of DGS is to TEACH people how to DG well, and this includes TEACHING them how to effectively use what ever third bind they have. We know some people will die more at first without a plate, the idea is to learn how to avoid it, while also being a benefit to your team. People need to learn what and how to use the binds on, whether it be a rapier, hex hunter, cele staff, or bloodneck. The point of the CC is to watch, and teach people how to use them.

 

I have no comments on 3BO, I haven't experienced much issue with them, other then the one time someone was hording food, and wouldn't drop any for the keyer.

[dukky]

I understand your points, but the one thing you can't do with a blood neck is go into a room with a mage and a ton a rangers that you have no reason to kill (short skill/puzzle room) and come out unharmed, like you can do with a plate. I know this applies mostly to the keyer, but if you have a door gated and find one of these such rooms where you would be fine with a platebody (primal platebody has more def bonuses than full bandos). Then you have to regate and either let someone with a platebody do the room or bring the whole teams there.

 

I do understand you more now from reading your responses, and may even try doing some floors with dgs in the future.

[notasoupbowl]

Bind sag body if you key, blood neck if you don't as your 4th, also get 99 range asap obviously

 

Once in a while it is better to pray range w/ a mage that can bind. Especially with hex and/or sag body

Still rarely ofc

But yes OCCASIONALLY you will have to die. I can avoid deaths as a keyer most of the time but idc about xp and get bored going slow

[xpx]

I understand your points, but the one thing you can't do with a blood neck is go into a room with a mage and a ton a rangers that you have no reason to kill (short skill/puzzle room) and come out unharmed, like you can do with a plate. I know this applies mostly to the keyer, but if you have a door gated and find one of these such rooms where you would be fine with a platebody (primal platebody has more def bonuses than full bandos). Then you have to regate and either let someone with a platebody do the room or bring the whole teams there.

 

I do understand you more now from reading your responses, and may even try doing some floors with dgs in the future.

Or you can still tank the room alone. There are actually very few real rape puzzle rooms that someone with no armor can't do with proper combat mechanics.

[green9090]

I key with a blood necklace and still only very rarely die when I wouldn't have died anyway (if a room has a t11 mage, t11 ranger, some books, a brute, a pickaxe, a shade... what's your plate gonna do, seriously? Also, when I run out of prayer and there's no altar close to completion, I'm dying regardless of binds). It's a matter of being smart with your prayer, having a team that gives up food when you need it, and being good at safespotting monsters. A plate is like training wheels- a lot of what it does is just making up for mistakes. A good player doesn't need it.

[z0diark]

Did my first floor with DGS today, thanks to all involved for making it fun and fast :) Is anyone able to explain to me thoroughly the best way to make range armour lossless? On that note, surely you need to spend time chopping logs to make traps and therefore it's not entirely 'lossless', or do you collect logs from drops? Also, out of interest (I don't own one) what's the best way to make use of a blood neck, just attack loads of meleers and get them to crows around you as you prot from melee in gds?

[Obtaurian]

Did my first floor with DGS today, thanks to all involved for making it fun and fast :) Is anyone able to explain to me thoroughly the best way to make range armour lossless? On that note, surely you need to spend time chopping logs to make traps and therefore it's not entirely 'lossless', or do you collect logs from drops? Also, out of interest (I don't own one) what's the best way to make use of a blood neck, just attack loads of meleers and get them to crows around you as you prot from melee in gds?

 

You pick up logs from drops or buy t1 logs from the smuggler in the beginning or when/if you go back to make runes/buy a tool kit.

 

You can use any tier of log for any tier of dino - the trick has near 100% success rate regardless. You can fletch a trap while running or between 2h hits in a gd. You aggro a dino (best done with a hex), place a trap and STAND ON TOP OF THE TRAP. Do this while you're killing monsters in a gd and perform each action between 2h hits. While you're standing on the trap, the dino will automatically be caught after a few seconds. Skin it and make armor while you run/between 2h hits. With armor, hexes are more effective against mobs and bosses, and it's especially helpful to make armor for a keyer with a hex.

 

It should also be done on Kal'Ger floors. Then you laugh while the other four people are busy buying/mining ore and taking forever to make it. At the very worst you'd have to buy proto hides, but crafting is still much faster.

[Andy]

Did my first floor with DGS today, thanks to all involved for making it fun and fast :) Is anyone able to explain to me thoroughly the best way to make range armour lossless? On that note, surely you need to spend time chopping logs to make traps and therefore it's not entirely 'lossless', or do you collect logs from drops? Also, out of interest (I don't own one) what's the best way to make use of a blood neck, just attack loads of meleers and get them to crows around you as you prot from melee in gds?

A tangle gum log can be bought for like 300 gp when you buy your runes and tk at the start, or it can be picked up from drops. To make armour losslessly, hit a dino while you're fighting things in guardian doors and set up your trap. When your trap is set up, stand under it and within 5-10 seconds the dino will be killed. Grab the hides and make the armour in between 2h hits. You can also do this while there is downtime (and assuming you've already gated something beforehand, if not, go gate a door if there are any doors not gated.).

 

To get monsters piled on you in a gd, take your hood off (presuming it's not a rape gd full of t11 rangers and meleers of course.). Otherwise just stand around piles of monsters. I haven't had any experience with a blood necklace so I don't really know all the proper mechanics.

 

edit:ninja posted by obt

[Obtaurian]

With a blood necklace you have to be very conscious of where you position yourself in relation to monsters. Always lure melee monsters over to the ranged ones and position yourself so that the greatest number of monsters possible are near you. Then watch the 40's fly.

 

And like Cheeesy said, the fastest way to aggro monsters is to take your hood off - but only in melee pray safe rooms or areas of the room.

[z0diark]

Or you can still tank the room alone. There are actually very few real rape puzzle rooms that someone with no armor can't do with proper combat mechanics.

 

What do you mean by 'with proper combat mechanics'? Can you explain the best way to tank these rooms w/o armour?

 

Bind sag body if you key, blood neck if you don't as your 4th, also get 99 range asap obviously

 

If you have hex, wouldn't the extra damage done by it due to the increased range attack bonus (less 0s) of sagg body be more than the damage done by a blood neck? If not, how much better is blood neck than sagg body?

 

P.S. Thanks Obtaurian, I'll try to practice that as soon as i can :D

[Obtaurian]

By 'combat mechanics' he means safespotting, sidestepping, use of trample mechanics, etc.

 

Blood neck vs. sagittarian body as a fourth bind for a hexhunter is definitely debatable. IMO, keyers with hexes should bind a sagittarian body for sure, as they'll be using their hexes far more than their 2hs and keyers should consider armor anyway. Sagittarian bodies also offer a HUGE accuracy boost to the inaccurate hexhunter bow. For DPSers, a blood neck might be more useful as they'll be using melee around 60% of the time or more, and they're also free to make ranged armor whereas the keyer is not.

[brunokiller]

Is ranged (read sagit arrows bind) useful without a hex? I don't find myself in need of mage very often to be honest.

 

I can get a celestial surgebox instantly.

[Obtaurian]

Is ranged (read sagit arrows bind) useful without a hex? I don't find myself in need of mage very often to be honest.

 

I can get a celestial surgebox instantly.

 

I don't know half of what you can do in a floor, so for you, I have no idea. ;)

 

But for everyone else, arrows are completely useless without a hex. The only time you'd ever need arrows - for Necrolord - you can use a surgebox with a staff instead, and it's only very slightly worse than a grave short with fractite arrows (best arrows you can buy from the smuggler).

 

A team with all arrow binds and no surgeboxes would be slowed down considerably by a few t11 warriors, not to mention dreadnaught and hope devourer.

[dukky]

Is ranged (read sagit arrows bind) useful without a hex? I don't find myself in need of mage very often to be honest.

 

I can get a celestial surgebox instantly.

 

I don't know half of what you can do in a floor, so for you, I have no idea. ;)

 

But for everyone else, arrows are completely useless without a hex. The only time you'd ever need arrows - for Necrolord - you can use a surgebox with a staff instead, and it's only very slightly worse than a grave short with fractite arrows (best arrows you can buy from the smuggler).

 

A team with all arrow binds and no surgeboxes would be slowed down considerably by a few t11 warriors, not to mention dreadnaught and hope devourer.

Dread and hope are fine with ragers and faster to melee if u have them.

Arrows are also useful for world gorger+kalger, but csb is better. Having a random person with sag arrows when u have no hexes on team is usually nice though. (for those 3 bosses)

I just did 3 sub 20 min kalgers (with 3bo ofc ;-), all f59, so fair amount of warriors) with no surgeboxes tho, and "only" 2 hex. But I have to agree lack of surge slowed each floor down 30 secs or so. If u leech def on them its not too bad. There were 4 or 5 instances in those 2 floors where plate saved me from instant death though. (High warps with 4 120 dgers = hard rooms)