Dungeonsweepers (DGS) - Huge changes; read first post.

[xpx]

What do you mean by "people like you" :P

You know you are special and we all love you <3:

[Dragonlordjl]

Well, I am pretty damn slow switching to my surgebox, that's the main reason I considered a b-axe.

[Andy]

Rather than going the lazy way and switching to a baxe, learn how to switch better (or use an ahk script if you're that bad at switching.)

[Michael]

Don't get a baxe because you're lazy.

[xpx]

Well, I am pretty damn slow switching to my surgebox, that's the main reason I considered a b-axe.

that's actually a reason for you to keep 2h(you may not understand why, but it's not really important).

[Grimy_Bunyip]

Well, I am pretty damn slow switching to my surgebox, that's the main reason I considered a b-axe.

that's actually a reason for you to keep 2h(you may not understand why, but it's not really important).

Damnit xpx, why must you say these things in public without talking to us about it.

You keep missing out on discussions we have. DGS opinions on weapons binds changed about a day before you made that post.

You should probably speak to obtaurian to get an update.

[Th e Doctor]

What are said new opinions?

[xpx]

What are said new opinions?

Apparently, i could have been right all along, although using a baxe is still a privilege and i guess the leaders will be talking to players who should make the switch(and we are working on tracking player binds to help better recommend binds to players).

 

binds form link:

https://spreadsheets.google.com/viewform?hl=en_GB&formkey=dFl3X1JMMGw1VWVObmpSMDFWYVRlc1E6MQ#gid=0

(we will hunt you down and kill you if you derp)

[z0diark]

 

All dps isn't equal, Zombies have alot of lp while fogottens have very little, but at the same time, both need to be killed, and different weapons have the advantage. The advantage 2h has over baxe isn't as pronounced because of the lack of lp, but it saves atleast as much time or more because of it. 2h is the jack of all trades, while baxe fills a niche, so that's why 2h is considered to be best, though it'd not always best in providing berserker titles.

 

For anyone interested in Prom 2h vs Baxe...

 

Although i know grimy, obt and mc disagree with this, i'm leaning towards primal baxe being atleast as good as prom 2h, but for an analysis, lets turn to some graphs and grimys dps calc:

 

The basic areas where melee is and should be used in dungeoneering are(assuming you have 2 weapons to choose from):

 

1. Low defense monsters- examples include shades and lower level monsters. On these monsters, your best attack style should be used, which is slash from both 2h and baxe. These monsters have up to ~50 def max hit.

 

2. Slash weak monsters- examples include zombies, mages and rangers(last two because of their armor). On these monsters, slash style should be used, which is the best style for both 2h and baxe. These monsters have up to ~220 def max hit against slash.

 

3. High def, melee resistant and stab weak monsters- examples include high level demons, bats and hellhounds. Your best melee style should be used for these monsters, which is slash for both 2h and baxe. These monsters have up to around ~550 def max hit against slash.

 

4. Crush weak monsters- examples are all skeletons and fire giants. Crush style should be used for these monsters, which is the secondary style for both 2h and baxe.These monsters have up to around ~220 def max hit.

 

Now, i've plotted 2 graphs to compare the two weapons(prom 2h and prim baxe) in these four areas of work. For all the calculations a setup of hood+weapon is used, with t9 berserker ring, 99 str/attack, nonpotted, no prayers.

 

 

 

(the graphs are plotted as DPS vs. def max hit, btw)

 

Now, in the first area, baxe has the clear advantage, being up to 10% better than 2h. In the second area, the weapons are virtually identical, so there isn't anything to really set them apart. In the 3rd area, 2h is the clear winner, being up to 15% better at really high def. For the forth area, baxe is again on top, and is really always a better crush weapon than 2h.

 

Keep in mind, while these graphs show a 2-1-1 win for the baxe, it isn't always as simple, and i'd say they are completely degenerate for most teams, so you'd want an equal amount of either of these weapons. Also, what the baxe has going for it is that it is one handed(can use tank ring with it or mage with ease), potion and prayer bonuses(strong melee, turmoil) help the faster, less accurate weapon more and as said by green, it's easier to SS flash with one.

 

The graphs are assuming just the weapons with hood, no prayer, potions or other gear(no blood neck, for example). One thing that i wasn't sure about and still aren't is what the exact def values are(so you can better pinpoint the significant areas), although we are now sure armor on forgottens doesn't get full def bonuses.

 

From grimys data, i'd assume t11 fogotten mages to have around 340 def max hit.

 

You really should put titles and units on your axes D: Can you please explain what the numbers on the y-axis are and what 'def max hit' is? Also, how did you get your data?

 

P.S. Why so secretive Grimy?

[xpx]

You really should put titles and units on your axes D: Can you please explain what the numbers on the y-axis are and what 'def max hit' is? Also, how did you get your data?

 

P.S. Why so secretive Grimy?

I know i should, but that's party because i want people to pay attention and party because i want to avoid awkward questions about dps: higher is better(they are graphed as dps vs. def max hit).

 

Grimy didn't get to fully say what he meant, but after his long and painful research about dungeoneering accuracy(for which we all should be grateful for) it looks as though baxe might be better, but we are still collaborating on how we can best utilize that information.

 

And, again:

https://spreadsheets.google.com/viewform?hl=en_GB&formkey=dFl3X1JMMGw1VWVObmpSMDFWYVRlc1E6MQ#gid=0

(fill out or die!)

[Michael]

Be careful when filling that out, I don't mind if you make legitimate mistakes but if you spam if I'm gonna be [bleep]ing annoyed.

[Ezkaton]

Just had perhaps one of the best DG's I've had :3 I was a nub in a pro team of Troll, Coq, Meam and Matt and I managed to keep up. :3

 

Thanks DGS for getting me into DGing :3

[LinkOlaran]

Is there a point in filling out the Binds form if I don't dg a huge amount with you guys? I keep meaning to actually join a dg, but I always end up going with a few hyters whenever I decide to dg, lol.

 

That being said, I do want to level up soon - Thunderous should be entertaining for me on dialup to begin with, but I do have a question - what's the deal with primal baxe and using it 'correctly', again? I'm assuming my tactics for combat change or something when using baxe, rather than 2h, but other than that I really don't know.

 

Excuse my cluelessness here :P

[green9090]

Battleaxes go for low defense and crush weak first- it has significantly better raw DPS (raw DPS is the damage per second of a weapon assuming it never hits a 0, taking accuracy out of the equation) in exchange for accuracy, and stays better than 2h at crush longer than it does in slash as far as enemy defense rising. Shades, skeletons, zombies, spiders, jellies, and low level dogs are all major battleaxe territory and should generally be targeted first by battleaxe users. 2hs by contrast would be focusing on rangers, mages (in absence of hexes), bats, and other high level tank monsters (most of these would be surged, so if there's a surge they should still get off and do something else).

 

A third bind like blood necklace or primal gauntlets favors battleaxe, while a hex or rapier favors 2h. Cele cat can go either way.

 

Note that this is all assuming prom 2h- the primal scimitar fares better in comparison, but is still a little bit inferior on low defense monsters like zombies and shades.

[LinkOlaran]

That makes a good deal of sense, thanks :)

 

Personally, I may end up binding a cele cat staff once I get 100 dg, if not just to be different, but because of the mentions of DGS wanting more surgers now. Plus, I've always preferred maging over ranged. Plus I already have T5 blazer ring, and only T1 desperado, lol. I rarely end up using range in dungeons, unless the situation calls for it (Necrolord, although I now understand that it's almost as easily killed by surging as it is by ranging - assuming solo dg leveled version, anyway).

 

And yeah, I still need to upgrade my blazer ring. And my zerker ring another tier when I get closer to 90 dg.

[green9090]

Cele cat is definitely a good third bind, but it takes a lot of work. You HAVE to be good about making yourself fire runes, as cele cat with air surge is worse in every way than empowered fire with fire surge. It's not too hard though, just takes attention.

 

As an aside, you should never, ever use ranged if you have a surgebox bound- ranged is 100% useless in dungeoneering without a hex. I don't even have a ranged ring leveled. The only place where ranged is acceptable is necrolord, and fire surge is just as good if not better.

[Obtaurian]

Everyone knows the clan high scores are broken, right? Well if you search for DGS you'll find the top clans on one page in the 6,000s or something, lol. DGS is currently #7 for total exp (we were around #11 when the high scores went down) and still #5 for dungeoneering, but we're much closer to #4 than we were before.

 

I hate the random noobs who see us on the high scores and try to use the chat without reading the guidelines, but I love that we're one of the top clans in Runescape.

[LinkOlaran]

I guess if I start using cele cat, I'll have to be far more conscious of rune ess drops and looting them to be crafted into fire runes when needed. Gonna need a huge amount for surging, though.

[Obtaurian]

I guess if I start using cele cat, I'll have to be far more conscious of rune ess drops and looting them to be crafted into fire runes when needed. Gonna need a huge amount for surging, though.

 

Try to do floors with The Bemis when you can and watch him closely. He's pro with a celestial staff. :thumbup: The only bad thing about having more staffs in DGS is that more than one on a team is BAD. They have to compete for fire runes and ess drops.

[ghjkl]

I guess if I start using cele cat, I'll have to be far more conscious of rune ess drops and looting them to be crafted into fire runes when needed. Gonna need a huge amount for surging, though.

 

Try to do floors with The Bemis when you can and watch him closely. He's pro with a celestial staff. :thumbup: The only bad thing about having more staffs in DGS is that more than one on a team is BAD. They have to compete for fire runes and ess drops.

or you can just buy ess, 400 costs 20k

[z0diark]

You really should put titles and units on your axes D: Can you please explain what the numbers on the y-axis are and what 'def max hit' is? Also, how did you get your data?

 

P.S. Why so secretive Grimy?

I know i should, but that's party because i want people to pay attention and party because i want to avoid awkward questions about dps: higher is better(they are graphed as dps vs. def max hit).

 

Grimy didn't get to fully say what he meant, but after his long and painful research about dungeoneering accuracy(for which we all should be grateful for) it looks as though baxe might be better, but we are still collaborating on how we can best utilize that information.

 

And, again:

https://spreadsheets.google.com/viewform?hl=en_GB&formkey=dFl3X1JMMGw1VWVObmpSMDFWYVRlc1E6MQ#gid=0

(fill out or die!)

 

Lol, I know what DPS is but not what def max hit is. The figures you were giving in your earlier post (for def max hit) were in the order of hundreds, whereas the scale on y-axis was hundreds of thousands :S

[Obtaurian]

I guess if I start using cele cat, I'll have to be far more conscious of rune ess drops and looting them to be crafted into fire runes when needed. Gonna need a huge amount for surging, though.

 

Try to do floors with The Bemis when you can and watch him closely. He's pro with a celestial staff. :thumbup: The only bad thing about having more staffs in DGS is that more than one on a team is BAD. They have to compete for fire runes and ess drops.

or you can just buy ess, 400 costs 20k

 

The point is to not waste time and to be efficient when gathering fire runes, which most staff users don't do.

[Dragonlordjl]

I guess if I start using cele cat, I'll have to be far more conscious of rune ess drops and looting them to be crafted into fire runes when needed. Gonna need a huge amount for surging, though.

 

Try to do floors with The Bemis when you can and watch him closely. He's pro with a celestial staff. :thumbup: The only bad thing about having more staffs in DGS is that more than one on a team is BAD. They have to compete for fire runes and ess drops.

or you can just buy ess, 400 costs 20k

 

The point is to not waste time and to be efficient when gathering fire runes, which most staff users don't do.

This. It is [bleep]ing stupid to try to make fire runes at the beginning of a floor, yet some people try to do it.

 

1) It wastes a huge amount of time at the start of the floor, which could be used to kill monsters.

 

2) If you hoard enough ess/cash to buy ess at the start that you have enough to make both your tele/cure runes AND fires, you're shortchanging the rest of your team. And by that, I mean that at least one person (maybe more) will probably not have runes to gate stuff at the start, which slows the floor WAY down.

 

3) You don't NEED fire runes at the start of a floor. With a CCS, your Air Surges will still be powerful enough to dispatch any mage-weak monsters like Warriors you might come across in the first several rooms.

 

4) Honestly, the most efficient way to craft fires is to just take ess as you find it and then craft like a few dozen every time you come across a RC altar as you progress through the dungeon. Barring that, you'll probably need to HT at some point, so craft 50 or so then. Unless you're one-wayed with some BS rooms like flowers or barrels or some [cabbage], HTing in the middle of the dungeon to craft a few hundred fires is a pretty big waste of time. If there are no GDs and there's nothing to run around gating, as a last resort you could be killing random monsters while you wait for to get extra food/GP and level mod.

 

The only reason you should ever HT to make fires (other than if the keyer tells you because that's the next path to take) is if you have home gated, which really shouldn't happen.

[ghjkl]

its called gate ht until you get coins

[Dragonlordjl]

its called gate ht until you get coins

Well, yeah. But you get my point :rolleyes: Obviously you gate home until you need to gate something else, but generally it doesn't take that long for everyone to be able to gate something useful.