Dungeonsweepers (DGS) - Huge changes; read first post.

[Zaaps1]

I have since stepped down from a leadership/administrative role in dgs and I see some new updates to the bind guidelines and such being very obtrusive to the eager learners of tip.it. Why exactly has it been decided that putting such guidelines is deemed necessary. I completely understand requiring people to switch from really crappy dps weapons to prom 2h's and such. However, requiring someone to switch from a Prim B axe, which I can see no difference in regards to Dps not plotted on a graph and shown on paper in comparison to a prom 2h, to be any better at speeding up a floor. I believe stressing initiative and having everyone learn to be a "wingman" would be the best route. Throwing an accumulation of more and more guidelines and requirements onto a new dungeoneer's load of things to remember is only going to turn people away and send this vision and mission of the clan to something more dge (dungeon elites) in vision.

How I feel.

 

Imo while the Battleaxe is inferior against most of the high-level monsters you find, there's absolutely no reason to ban using it (unless you're over 113 dg, of course). I find it a ton easier to use than a 2H, and not just because I can use the tank ring, just because it feels more natural.

 

Plus it doesn't sound like a falling desk when you hit something.

[Grimy_Bunyip]

 

nice job team, way to lose berserker AND battlemage to the keyer.

 

---

 

]Under that assumption your accuracy on t6 rangers with 2h or baxe would be around 60-70% range, which clearly seems bogus to me

This. Something is wrong in the calculations here, because accuracy is barely an issue on rangers below t10 and mages below t9 or so. Accuracy only really becomes a problem for the battleaxe on very high defense monsters like bats, fire giants, high-tier warriors, etc. For bosses, they're usually ragered to hell, meaning that battleaxe ends up better on them than a 2h.

I have my doubts, I'll see if i can get any data collected on the matter.

[Obtaurian]

Alright, we're doing away with the battleaxe/csb clause until there's conclusive evidence to support prom 2h > baxe.

 

YOU SHOULD ALL BLAME GRIMY AND PM HIM WITH INSULTS AND FOUL LANGUAGE.

[Grimy_Bunyip]

Alright, we're doing away with the battleaxe/csb clause until there's conclusive evidence to support prom 2h > baxe.

 

YOU SHOULD ALL BLAME GRIMY AND PM HIM WITH INSULTS AND FOUL LANGUAGE.

and then help me collect data after you're done with that.

[SirIzenhime]

]Under that assumption your accuracy on t6 rangers with 2h or baxe would be around 60-70% range, which clearly seems bogus to me

This. Something is wrong in the calculations here, because accuracy is barely an issue on rangers below t10 and mages below t9 or so. Accuracy only really becomes a problem for the battleaxe on very high defense monsters like bats, fire giants, high-tier warriors, etc. For bosses, they're usually ragered to hell, meaning that battleaxe ends up better on them than a 2h.

 

I know you've already adressed this grimy, but I just wanted to confirm it more.

I have around a 70% accuracy on the tier 11 rangers (not really exactly, just what it seems to be around).

I almost never mess on tier 10 and lower rangers or mages when I have turmoil up (which also means it isn't even a full turmoil boost)

When I switched to a b axe from 2h, I instantly noticed I was performing better. The ONLY weapon I would ever unbind it for is a primal 2h.

Removing the "must have CSB with B axe" rule was a good call imo.

[xpx]

Removing the "must have CSB with B axe" rule was a good call imo.

I honestly don't think it was that good of a call, though i don't agree that 2h is better than baxe.

 

As my analysis suggests, the weapons are very much equal and server some similar and some different roles in a dungeon, so keeping the number of 2hs similar to the number of baxes is important. Thus, although i don't agree that there should be a strict rule, there should atleast be a strong suggestion that if you don't use a csb or never key(which is common in the cc), you should have a prom 2h bind. Having 5 primal battleaxes is definitely worse than having 3 prom 2h's and 2 baxes, so that's why the rule made sense, but not in a strict fashion.

[DeeKay]

I DGed through the CC for the first time today (88 Dungeoneering), and gotta admit that I've never seen anything like it. The teamwork was flawless, with everyone having the correct supplies and no time wasted on arguing or flaming.

Overall, it was a large dungeon rush completed in 30 minutes, compared to 1:10 - 1:30 I usually manage in world 117. Amazing stuff.

Real shame there are no more players in the CC.

[Grimy_Bunyip]

I'd hate to come off as P.O.ed but I am.

Guess who's the one who is going to be doing dozens and dozens of c6 solos counting hits and misses by hand until there's enough data to come to a reasonable conclusion?

I am.

So unless you feel like donating time to collecting data with me, please just bind a damn 2h and sit tight until we can give you a good answer.

As a favor to me for spending time collecting this data if nothing else.

I've spent a lot of time debating dps. Both in DGE and 3BO. Honestly I'm tired of the topic. And nothing you bring up on the topic will be anything that has not already been brought up to me before.

The bottom line is we're not going to know for sure without data.

So either help me get data or just stop bringing up the topic until the data is published.

[green9090]

I'd hate to come off as P.O.ed but I am.

Guess who's the one who is going to be doing dozens and dozens of c6 solos counting hits and misses by hand until there's enough data to come to a reasonable conclusion?

I am.

So unless you feel like donating time to collecting data with me, please just bind a damn 2h and sit tight until we can give you a good answer.

As a favor to me for spending time collecting this data if nothing else.

I've spent a lot of time debating dps. Both in DGE and 3BO. Honestly I'm tired of the topic. And nothing you bring up on the topic will be anything that has not already been brought up to me before.

The bottom line is we're not going to know for sure without data.

So either help me get data or just stop bringing up the topic until the data is published.

Whoa, okay, I don't think it's reasonable to say anyone besides you and Jimi brought up the debate. If you're going to tell me my weapon bind sucks when I like it a lot better than the one you're telling me to use, that counts as opening yourself up to a big "nuh uh." You don't have to sacrifice a ton of time collecting data, but we don't have to have our weapon bind outlawed if it's not very clearly inferior (like, say, a warhammer) either.

 

That said, I wouldn't mind collecting data. What sort of data are you looking for, specifically? Maybe it would help if you published a template for us to fill in so we have a better idea of how we might help.

[Zaaps1]

I wouldn't mind setting up a test to confirm or refute the idea that prom 2h > primal baxe. Got a Statistics test tomorrow as well, so clearly that's been on my mind, lol.\

 

If we can compile data, we can prove a significant difference of the prom 2h over the primal battleaxe. This, however, requires careful planning.

 

X1 = Average Strength Xp per floor for someone using a Prom 2H

X2 = Average Strength Xp per floor for someone using a Primal Baxe

 

Note that these two people must be in the exact same floor. Neither should use boosts, so no turmoil/piety flashing or melee potions, because then every single person doing this test would have to do the same. Also, people doing this test should be 99 attack/99 strength/99 defense/99 hitpoints (because eating would cut into dps) and optimally have the same 3rd bind, if any. Finally, neither should be the keyer.

 

While the style of dungeoneering certainly impacts this data, as will the presence of either at a room (one might be in a GD while the other is doing a puzzle, for example), as well as personal bias (someone might try to get extra hits in to skew the data), a large enough sample size SHOULD be able to offset this, and simple trust is all we can rely on for the last point.

 

Optimally, it should be the same people each time, but I don't expect anyone to want to do that, so I suppose we will have to settle for more than 1 person doing tests for each group.

 

Test will use hypotheses:

 

H0: X1 = X2. With the average strength xp per floors being equal.

Ha: X1 > X2. With the average strength xp per floor of the prom 2h being greater than that of the primal baxe.

 

The t statistic can then be calculated accordingly, as can the p value.

 

I'm not sure how confident of a result you guys want, but running some quick dummy calculations:

 

With a sample size of 10, if X1 averages 2k xp higher than X2, we are 81% confident, which is terrible.

With a sample size of 50-100, if X1 averages 2k xp higher than X2, we are 98% confident, which is very good.

With a sample size of 200, if X1 averages 2k xp higher than X2, we are 99.99...% confident, and we might as well be 100% confident.

 

Those calculations were run with a Standard Deviation of 5k, which imo should roughly be equal. Of course, with larger Sx, we are less confident.

 

The actual proposal is to first try to determine the Standard Deviation of the Average Strength Xp per dungeon for each, then work from there.

 

This is all, of course, assuming anyone cares. Was a nice review for my test, anyway.

[green9090]

I wouldn't mind setting up a test to confirm or refute the idea that prom 2h > primal baxe. Got a Statistics test tomorrow as well, so clearly that's been on my mind, lol.\

 

If we can compile data, we can prove a significant difference of the prom 2h over the primal battleaxe. This, however, requires careful planning.

 

X1 = Average Strength Xp per floor for someone using a Prom 2H

X2 = Average Strength Xp per floor for someone using a Primal Baxe

 

Note that these two people must be in the exact same floor. Neither should use boosts, so no turmoil/piety flashing or melee potions, because then every single person doing this test would have to do the same. Also, people doing this test should be 99 attack/99 strength/99 defense/99 hitpoints (because eating would cut into dps) and optimally have the same 3rd bind, if any. Finally, neither should be the keyer.

 

While the style of dungeoneering certainly impacts this data, as will the presence of either at a room (one might be in a GD while the other is doing a puzzle, for example), as well as personal bias (someone might try to get extra hits in to skew the data), a large enough sample size SHOULD be able to offset this, and simple trust is all we can rely on for the last point.

 

Optimally, it should be the same people each time, but I don't expect anyone to want to do that, so I suppose we will have to settle for more than 1 person doing tests for each group.

 

Test will use hypotheses:

 

H0: X1 = X2. With the average strength xp per floors being equal.

Ha: X1 > X2. With the average strength xp per floor of the prom 2h being greater than that of the primal baxe.

 

The t statistic can then be calculated accordingly, as can the p value.

 

I'm not sure how confident of a result you guys want, but running some quick dummy calculations:

 

With a sample size of 10, if X1 averages 2k xp higher than X2, we are 81% confident, which is terrible.

With a sample size of 50-100, if X1 averages 2k xp higher than X2, we are 98% confident, which is very good.

With a sample size of 200, if X1 averages 2k xp higher than X2, we are 99.99...% confident, and we might as well be 100% confident.

 

Those calculations were run with a Standard Deviation of 5k, which imo should roughly be equal. Of course, with larger Sx, we are less confident.

 

The actual proposal is to first try to determine the Standard Deviation of the Average Strength Xp per dungeon for each, then work from there.

 

This is all, of course, assuming anyone cares. Was a nice review for my test, anyway.

FAR more than testing the weapons, this would test the skill of the players. Hit by hit analysis is the only way to go for fine distinctions like this, variables like who gets to the GD first, who has the better internet, who's better at getting on a monster they won't overkill, etc. etc. will completely skew the data.

[Zaaps1]

I wouldn't mind setting up a test to confirm or refute the idea that prom 2h > primal baxe. Got a Statistics test tomorrow as well, so clearly that's been on my mind, lol.\

 

If we can compile data, we can prove a significant difference of the prom 2h over the primal battleaxe. This, however, requires careful planning.

 

X1 = Average Strength Xp per floor for someone using a Prom 2H

X2 = Average Strength Xp per floor for someone using a Primal Baxe

 

Note that these two people must be in the exact same floor. Neither should use boosts, so no turmoil/piety flashing or melee potions, because then every single person doing this test would have to do the same. Also, people doing this test should be 99 attack/99 strength/99 defense/99 hitpoints (because eating would cut into dps) and optimally have the same 3rd bind, if any. Finally, neither should be the keyer.

 

While the style of dungeoneering certainly impacts this data, as will the presence of either at a room (one might be in a GD while the other is doing a puzzle, for example), as well as personal bias (someone might try to get extra hits in to skew the data), a large enough sample size SHOULD be able to offset this, and simple trust is all we can rely on for the last point.

 

Optimally, it should be the same people each time, but I don't expect anyone to want to do that, so I suppose we will have to settle for more than 1 person doing tests for each group.

 

Test will use hypotheses:

 

H0: X1 = X2. With the average strength xp per floors being equal.

Ha: X1 > X2. With the average strength xp per floor of the prom 2h being greater than that of the primal baxe.

 

The t statistic can then be calculated accordingly, as can the p value.

 

I'm not sure how confident of a result you guys want, but running some quick dummy calculations:

 

With a sample size of 10, if X1 averages 2k xp higher than X2, we are 81% confident, which is terrible.

With a sample size of 50-100, if X1 averages 2k xp higher than X2, we are 98% confident, which is very good.

With a sample size of 200, if X1 averages 2k xp higher than X2, we are 99.99...% confident, and we might as well be 100% confident.

 

Those calculations were run with a Standard Deviation of 5k, which imo should roughly be equal. Of course, with larger Sx, we are less confident.

 

The actual proposal is to first try to determine the Standard Deviation of the Average Strength Xp per dungeon for each, then work from there.

 

This is all, of course, assuming anyone cares. Was a nice review for my test, anyway.

FAR more than testing the weapons, this would test the skill of the players. Hit by hit analysis is the only way to go for fine distinctions like this, variables like who gets to the GD first, who has the better internet, who's better at getting on a monster they won't overkill, etc. etc. will completely skew the data.

 

That's very true, but hopefully with enough people in the sample this problem is mitigated somewhat. It's the best alternative I think we have other than having 1 person do the entire test.

 

Other than DPS analysis, of course.

[Saradomin_Mage]

]Under that assumption your accuracy on t6 rangers with 2h or baxe would be around 60-70% range, which clearly seems bogus to me

This. Something is wrong in the calculations here, because accuracy is barely an issue on rangers below t10 and mages below t9 or so. Accuracy only really becomes a problem for the battleaxe on very high defense monsters like bats, fire giants, high-tier warriors, etc. For bosses, they're usually ragered to hell, meaning that battleaxe ends up better on them than a 2h.

Being a bit pedantic here, but the KB states that mage armour actually has about 50% of the slash defence of range armour, tier on tier.

Obviously this would make mages softer targets than rangers, unless they have higher defence or something.

 

For data collection, could we just hunt certain monsters in dungeons with possibly known defence statistics (I remember Grimy did DPS calculation to work out the stats of Forgotten Rangers), and get #s on hits/misses?

Continuing my hero career:

[xpx]

I'd hate to come off as P.O.ed but I am.

Guess who's the one who is going to be doing dozens and dozens of c6 solos counting hits and misses by hand until there's enough data to come to a reasonable conclusion?

I am.

So unless you feel like donating time to collecting data with me, please just bind a damn 2h and sit tight until we can give you a good answer.

As a favor to me for spending time collecting this data if nothing else.

I've spent a lot of time debating dps. Both in DGE and 3BO. Honestly I'm tired of the topic. And nothing you bring up on the topic will be anything that has not already been brought up to me before.

The bottom line is we're not going to know for sure without data.

So either help me get data or just stop bringing up the topic until the data is published.

I'm sorry but really, as i know the rule was brought in by your initiative i'd have thought you'd already done the testing to confirm 2h really is better.

 

In any case, yes, i'd be willing to help test this, as i don't think the testing is even that hard(you basically need to record accuracy on t11 mages, rangers, level 128 zombies and 136 skeletons, all of which are common).

[Uzamak1]

Where do I sign up to be a winger?

I'd like to be Cheeese's wings

[Grimy_Bunyip]

Infinite accuracy data machine tbh.

 

 

Anyways I'll take any data I can get.

Just make sure you this is without prayers, you are not wearing that affects accuracy aside from your SSH, and not potted, not weakened by mages, etc.

I'll make the data log I'm entering info in public once I'm done with this merc leader.

[notasoupbowl]

Continuing my hero career:

doesn't count, you died

[Blutters]

Is there a time when the chat is more focused and populated/active? I admit I only tried twice (about two 30 minute periods) but got no responses. I thought I had the wrong chat at first; It seemed everyone was on about PK'ing, rather than DG'ing.

I really hope to see what it's all about soon, because to be honest, DG'ing (and therefore getting the gear for Nex, and getting to Warped floors (2 levels!!!)) is just about the only thing that can renew my interest in RS at this time.

[Grimy_Bunyip]

I've had about as much data collecting from the merc leader as I can stomach

 

All my data in here at this current time.

interestingly enough, it seems mages have higher slash defense than rangers.

 

https://spreadsheets.google.com/pub?hl=en&hl=en&key=0AldEhLOK6ejJdHJoNWhYNzB5cjJVOE8ySThmT01idUE&output=html

[aerendil]

Just done my first 2 dungons with Dgs, very satisfied, far better than the average w117 or even w148 teams :) probs gona get ccbow with you guys ;). Always got a constant lag prob, so if u dung with me, have patience ;)

 

Meamzed

[green9090]

@ Grimy, yeah, mages are REALLY strong against melee compared to rangers. You never noticed this?

[Unknown_Warrior]

I decided to convert from my range gear (which I really didn't care for really except my 125 Promethium arrows p++ from the RC coin abuse days) to Gorg2H, SSH/Platebody, and laws. I have five questions:

 

Can you actually get a Surgebox in Dungeoneering before 70 Dungeoneering?

Where/Which clan chat can I go to to get a Promethium platebody?

When I would join something a little bit more of pro-DG team, and I need to give the keys to the Keyer, how is it done? Drop in Smuggler room? Teleport to the Keyer and trade? Drop in room?

^ for Keyer's food.

If I could join this chat with my 68 DG and complying to the rule that you need to do the last 10 floors large and C1 the rest until you're on f30+, meaning that you people C1 Floors 1-30 whereas I need to start larges at f24, would I need to W117/148 for this?

 

Thanks in advance.

[green9090]

I decided to convert from my range gear (which I really didn't care for really except my 125 Promethium arrows p++ from the RC coin abuse days) to Gorg2H, SSH/Platebody, and laws. I have five questions:

 

Can you actually get a Surgebox in Dungeoneering before 70 Dungeoneering?

Where/Which clan chat can I go to to get a Promethium platebody?

When I would join something a little bit more of pro-DG team, and I need to give the keys to the Keyer, how is it done? Drop in Smuggler room? Teleport to the Keyer and trade? Drop in room?

^ for Keyer's food.

If I could join this chat with my 68 DG and complying to the rule that you need to do the last 10 floors large and C1 the rest until you're on f30+, meaning that you people C1 Floors 1-30 whereas I need to start larges at f24, would I need to W117/148 for this?

 

Thanks in advance.

-I believe so

-I forget what the smithing cc is, but there are people in DGS who would be happy to make you a plate. If you can't find anyone to make you one, I'd just bind a kata plate and then ask around for a high level smith in DGS floors you do until you get a plate bind.

-Keyer will tell you what to do, but generally you'll be leaving food, keys, etc. on the GGS regardless of who they're going to, since it's a convenient location that everyone can access instantly.

-You'll need to solo or do 117 (I strongly recommend solo) for floors below 30 pretty much always. Sometimes keyers try to host DGS floors below 30, but it's hard to find people who want to do them. Don't worry, pretty soon you'll be high enough that you'll be c1ing 1-29 like everyone else.

[Saradomin_Mage]

With regards to the smithing CC, you can try "Dung Smith"

[green9090]

A little bit of data with the battleaxe. It's surprising how much flashing turmoil really helps accuracy, some of these numbers are abysmal compared to what I'd normally be getting.

 

It's also surprising that I went an entire solo medium floor without a single forgotten mage to test.

 

[hide]Equipment: Primal battleaxe, primal platebody, Shadow silk hood, T10 berserker ring

99 in all combat stats, no prayer or potions.

 

Monster: Giant Skeleton

Level: 140

Attack style: Crush

Hit: 9

Miss: 2

Accuracy: 81.8%

 

Monster: Skeleton

Level: 154

Attack style: Crush

Hit: 4

Miss: 1

Accuracy: 80%

 

Monster: Zombie (ranged)

Level: 50

Attack style: Slash

Hit: 7

Miss: 0

Accuracy: 100%

 

Monster: Zombie (melee)

Level: 103

Attack style: Slash

Hit: 10

Miss: 2

Accuracy: 83.3%

 

Monster: Hill Giant

Level: 137

Attack style: Slash

Hit: 13

Miss: 3

Accuracy: 81.3%

 

Monster: Hill Giant

Level: 74

Attack style: Slash

Hit: 6

Miss: 1

Accuracy: 85.7%

 

Monster: T6 Forgotten Warrior with chain armor and kiteshield

Level: 64

Attack style: slash

Hit: 3

Miss: 1

Accuracy: 75%

 

Monster: T8 Forgotten Warrior w/ chain armor and kiteshield

Level: 85

Attack style: Slash

Hit: 5

Miss: 15

Accuracy: 25%

 

Monster: T11 Forgotten Ranger

Level: 114

Attack style: Slash

Hit: 8

Miss: 6

Accuracy: 57.1%

 

Monster: Shadow-Forger

Level: 146

Attack style: Slash

Hit: 14

Miss: 4

Accuracy: 77.8%

 

Monster: Megamastyx

Level: 23

Attack style: Slash

Hit: 5

Miss: 1

Accuracy: 83.3%[/hide]