Dungeonsweepers (DGS) - Huge changes; read first post.

[homer205]

Hey guys.

We're looking to improve our floor times, and we believe the next natural step is to have some of the non-keyers take a more active role in the dungeoneering floors.

We want 1 person to volunteer, per floor, to assist the keyer with tasks that are not simply GD clearing. This person from this moment forth, shall be known as the Wingman.

 

Wingmen

 

From now on, we encourage keyers to designate a Wingman at the start of every floor.

 

The Wingman will serve several functions in support of the keyer.

 

- In the case that the keyer disconnects. The wingman becomes the default keyer.

- Second to the keyer, the wingman should be the most vocal person on the team. Giving regular status updates to the keyer.

- The wingman is encouraged to give advice to room clearers, on how to clear GDs more efficiently.

- The wingman is often in charge of opening thieving chests and making altars.

- The keyer will sometimes ask the wingman to hold onto the ggs, for the purpose of carrying the ggs from one gd to the next. The keyer will ask the wingman to perform this task by saying: Drag GGS.- The keyer may or may not ask the wingman to perform a number of additional functions:

.....Bring/Loot Alchemy Runes

.....Bring/Loot Humidify Runes

.....Bring/Loot Entangle Runes

.....Kill Dinos and make leather armor

 

 

PS: Yeah I guess there can be wingwomen too

 

PPS: Wingtrannies?

 

 

This could be confusing in my case. Other than that, sounds like a good idea.

[SirIzenhime]

inb4golvcommentaboutwingman.

[Bladewing]

keyer = maverick = tom cruise

wingman = goose

 

[cabbage] so cash

[Saradomin_Mage]

^ Johnny Cash?

I walk the [agility] line ...

I thought Wingman would be fun for me to give a shot, but the vocal thing is going to kill me because I hate taking initiative at times :P

[Nostar]

Regarding the primal b axe, i did get one yesterday and i find it so much better than a prom 2h, i am finally able to ss flick (such a hassle to ss with a slow wep) and i also feel like i'm getting berserker title more often than i used to with a 2h and over people that are maxed with a 2h ...

 

Basically why i'm telling this is because i can't yet wear a CSB yet and i wouldn't want to unbind my prim b axe.

[xpx]

Everyone should be a wingman, not just 1 person.

Though it is not always possible to get a team of people that are intelligible to know what to do without the keyer to baby feed them instructions.

Everyone should be more active. They should realize what to do next after a gd is cleared and if they don't know, ask the keyer or find something useful to do. Standing around is bever beneficial to floor times.

I think that's true in a good team(like 3bo teams) but on some dgs teams, there aren't enough experienced dungeoeers around to help the keyer effectively. That said, i've always played the part of a wingman, anyway, and Michael frequently plays that role real well, too.

[Kata_Phfract__the_slayer]

i have been around this chat for a few days now, its very helpful!

 

i wonder though, no one appears to care that my binds are a gorg longsword and emp air staff.

[Obtaurian]

i have been around this chat for a few days now, its very helpful!

 

i wonder though, no one appears to care that my binds are a gorg longsword and emp air staff.

 

Have you dg'd with official keyers? Fix your binds before you use the clan chat again, please.

 

Regarding the primal b axe, i did get one yesterday and i find it so much better than a prom 2h, i am finally able to ss flick (such a hassle to ss with a slow wep) and i also feel like i'm getting berserker title more often than i used to with a 2h and over people that are maxed with a 2h ...

 

Basically why i'm telling this is because i can't yet wear a CSB yet and i wouldn't want to unbind my prim b axe.

 

Prom 2h has better DPS than a primal baxe, no contest. You should learn to ss flick with the 2h and get used to the speed. Dungeoneering is about conditioning - you have to change the way you play and think about things compared to the overworld.

[green9090]

I am not getting rid of my primal battleaxe, nor am I getting rid of my law bind. The primal battleaxe is BETTER for monoliths (particularly when trying to get a new shade off the mono) and low defense/hp monsters (see: c1s), and also has a much better interval for soul split flashing that's easier to pull off with door lag. Meanwhile, the DPS difference between it and prom 2h is slight enough that I regularly get berserker with my battleaxe, mainly because I'm better about flashing turm/ss constantly than most people, and I wouldn't be with a 2h (door lag ALWAYS messed me up for the several months I had a 2h bind, the interval is just straight up less natural). I also key a lot, so it's nice to have that katagon kite off the table sometimes.

 

Primal battleaxe and prom 2h are nearly identical weapons, so I think it really is a case of what people feel the most comfortable with. If you force me to switch to a 2h, I'll become less effective as a result. Of course, I'd just quit at that point.

[Nostar]

^this.

 

Untill i have a prim 2h i'l keep my b axe. :P

 

The door lag makes it just impossible for me to ss flick without losing a ton of pray points.

[MstrMonopoly]

.....Kill Dinos and make leather armor

.....Kill Dinos and make

.....Kill Dinos

 

quitting clan tbh

[Andy]

.....Kill Dinos and make leather armor

.....Kill Dinos and make

.....Kill Dinos

-Presuming you know how to not waste time making armour (don't make armour/kill dinos while there's a gd)

[Saradomin_Mage]

I'm sure he meant it in jest. (MstrMonopoly, that is)

*Insert Bro Pal dino roar*

[xpx]

I am not getting rid of my primal battleaxe, nor am I getting rid of my law bind. The primal battleaxe is BETTER for monoliths (particularly when trying to get a new shade off the mono) and low defense/hp monsters (see: c1s), and also has a much better interval for soul split flashing that's easier to pull off with door lag. Meanwhile, the DPS difference between it and prom 2h is slight enough that I regularly get berserker with my battleaxe, mainly because I'm better about flashing turm/ss constantly than most people, and I wouldn't be with a 2h (door lag ALWAYS messed me up for the several months I had a 2h bind, the interval is just straight up less natural). I also key a lot, so it's nice to have that katagon kite off the table sometimes.

 

Primal battleaxe and prom 2h are nearly identical weapons, so I think it really is a case of what people feel the most comfortable with. If you force me to switch to a 2h, I'll become less effective as a result. Of course, I'd just quit at that point.

Although i know grimy, obt and mc disagree with this, i'm leaning towards primal baxe being atleast as good as prom 2h, but for an analysis, lets turn to some graphs and grimys dps calc:

 

The basic areas where melee is and should be used in dungeoneering are(assuming you have 2 weapons to choose from):

 

1. Low defense monsters- examples include shades and lower level monsters. On these monsters, your best attack style should be used, which is slash from both 2h and baxe. These monsters have up to ~50 def max hit.

 

2. Slash weak monsters- examples include zombies, mages and rangers(last two because of their armor). On these monsters, slash style should be used, which is the best style for both 2h and baxe. These monsters have up to ~220 def max hit against slash.

 

3. High def, melee resistant and stab weak monsters- examples include high level demons, bats and hellhounds. Your best melee style should be used for these monsters, which is slash for both 2h and baxe. These monsters have up to around ~550 def max hit against slash.

 

4. Crush weak monsters- examples are all skeletons and fire giants. Crush style should be used for these monsters, which is the secondary style for both 2h and baxe.These monsters have up to around ~220 def max hit.

 

Now, i've plotted 2 graphs to compare the two weapons(prom 2h and prim baxe) in these four areas of work. For all the calculations a setup of hood+weapon is used, with t9 berserker ring, 99 str/attack, nonpotted, no prayers.

 

 

 

(the graphs are plotted as DPS vs. def max hit, btw)

 

Now, in the first area, baxe has the clear advantage, being up to 10% better than 2h. In the second area, the weapons are virtually identical, so there isn't anything to really set them apart. In the 3rd area, 2h is the clear winner, being up to 15% better at really high def. For the forth area, baxe is again on top, and is really always a better crush weapon than 2h.

 

Keep in mind, while these graphs show a 2-1-1 win for the baxe, it isn't always as simple, and i'd say they are completely degenerate for most teams, so you'd want an equal amount of either of these weapons. Also, what the baxe has going for it is that it is one handed(can use tank ring with it or mage with ease), potion and prayer bonuses(strong melee, turmoil) help the faster, less accurate weapon more and as said by green, it's easier to SS flash with one.

 

I don't really understand banning Primal Baxe without CSB, but then again, it's not my decision, and as i do use a CSB, it doesn't affect me at all.

 

 

Also, for anyone mocking what grimy said about dinos, maybe you guys just don't know how to hunt dinos or haven't been in a team with a good hex in it? I've seen grimy make full range armor using no extra time while doing gds, so, instead of mocking, you guys should learn to become better and more informed.

[TheAncient]

also consider that you can kite much better with a 2h

and yes a good Hexer should learn to make armor lossless

[I_am_Not]

dinos is easily #1 priority.

i refuse to believe other wise

[Grimy_Bunyip]

 

I am not getting rid of my primal battleaxe, nor am I getting rid of my law bind. The primal battleaxe is BETTER for monoliths (particularly when trying to get a new shade off the mono) and low defense/hp monsters (see: c1s), and also has a much better interval for soul split flashing that's easier to pull off with door lag. Meanwhile, the DPS difference between it and prom 2h is slight enough that I regularly get berserker with my battleaxe, mainly because I'm better about flashing turm/ss constantly than most people, and I wouldn't be with a 2h (door lag ALWAYS messed me up for the several months I had a 2h bind, the interval is just straight up less natural). I also key a lot, so it's nice to have that katagon kite off the table sometimes.

 

Primal battleaxe and prom 2h are nearly identical weapons, so I think it really is a case of what people feel the most comfortable with. If you force me to switch to a 2h, I'll become less effective as a result. Of course, I'd just quit at that point.

Although i know grimy, obt and mc disagree with this, i'm leaning towards primal baxe being atleast as good as prom 2h, but for an analysis, lets turn to some graphs and grimys dps calc:

 

The basic areas where melee is and should be used in dungeoneering are(assuming you have 2 weapons to choose from):

 

1. Low defense monsters- examples include shades and lower level monsters. On these monsters, your best attack style should be used, which is slash from both 2h and baxe. These monsters have up to ~50 def max hit.

 

2. Slash weak monsters- examples include zombies, mages and rangers(last two because of their armor). On these monsters, slash style should be used, which is the best style for both 2h and baxe. These monsters have up to ~220 def max hit against slash.

 

3. High def, melee resistant and stab weak monsters- examples include high level demons, bats and hellhounds. Your best melee style should be used for these monsters, which is slash for both 2h and baxe. These monsters have up to around ~550 def max hit against slash.

 

4. Crush weak monsters- examples are all skeletons and fire giants. Crush style should be used for these monsters, which is the secondary style for both 2h and baxe.These monsters have up to around ~220 def max hit.

 

Now, i've plotted 2 graphs to compare the two weapons(prom 2h and prim baxe) in these four areas of work. For all the calculations a setup of hood+weapon is used, with t9 berserker ring, 99 str/attack, nonpotted, no prayers.

 

 

 

(the graphs are plotted as DPS vs. def max hit, btw)

 

Now, in the first area, baxe has the clear advantage, being up to 10% better than 2h. In the second area, the weapons are virtually identical, so there isn't anything to really set them apart. In the 3rd area, 2h is the clear winner, being up to 15% better at really high def. For the forth area, baxe is again on top, and is really always a better crush weapon than 2h.

 

Keep in mind, while these graphs show a 2-1-1 win for the baxe, it isn't always as simple, and i'd say they are completely degenerate for most teams, so you'd want an equal amount of either of these weapons. Also, what the baxe has going for it is that it is one handed(can use tank ring with it or mage with ease), potion and prayer bonuses(strong melee, turmoil) help the faster, less accurate weapon more and as said by green, it's easier to SS flash with one.

 

I don't really understand banning Primal Baxe without CSB, but then again, it's not my decision, and as i do use a CSB, it doesn't affect me at all.

 

 

Also, for anyone mocking what grimy said about dinos, maybe you guys just don't know how to hunt dinos or haven't been in a team with a good hex in it? I've seen grimy make full range armor using no extra time while doing gds, so, instead of mocking, you guys should learn to become better and more informed.

 

as your graph shows, the 2h becomes better at about 200+ slash defense rating right?

Tier 6 rangers have about 200 slash defense.

and tier 7-8 mages have about 200 slash defense.

A lot of monsters in dungeoneering have more slash defense than a tier 6 ranger or a tier 7-8 mage.

 

likewise 2h becomes better than baxe at about 250 crush defense.

The thing is, few things are weak to crush and have low defense other than skeletons.

 

Regarding the primal b axe, i did get one yesterday and i find it so much better than a prom 2h, i am finally able to ss flick (such a hassle to ss with a slow wep) and i also feel like i'm getting berserker title more often than i used to with a 2h and over people that are maxed with a 2h ...

 

Basically why i'm telling this is because i can't yet wear a CSB yet and i wouldn't want to unbind my prim b axe.

just because you're getting berserker doesn't make you a good damage outputter.

You could just be DGing with a bunch of noobs for all you know.

Furthermore you do not have a CSB yet.

A lot of pro DGers use CSB and hexhunters a lot. That makes them stop getting berserker simply because they aren't meleeing 100% of the time.

I've said this and I'll say it again.

Berserker is not a title to be proud of until you can get berserker AND sharpshooter or berserker AND battlemage at the same time.

[LatinII]

How good is Magic compared to Melee in Dungeoneering? Fire Surge with a celestial catalytic staff with T10 Blitzer compared to 99 Strength, Primal 2h and T10 Berserker?

[Grimy_Bunyip]

How good is Magic compared to Melee in Dungeoneering? Fire Surge with a celestial catalytic staff with T10 Blitzer compared to 99 Strength, Primal 2h and T10 Berserker?

fire surge with celestial cat staff is better damage output than a primal 2h without turmoil.

It's mostly the trouble of getting the fire surge runes.

Because even if you have endless fire surge with celestial cat staff, there's still the trouble of getting the fire runes which takes time.

celestial cat is not a bad 3rd bind though.

[xpx]

How good is Magic compared to Melee in Dungeoneering? Fire Surge with a celestial catalytic staff with T10 Blitzer compared to 99 Strength, Primal 2h and T10 Berserker?

Magic isn't a style you should be using alone and nor is melee. Maxed mage(csb, cele cat, t9 blitzer/blazer) has roughly the same dps as prim 2h with t9 berserker, only that those bonuses apply to less monsters. Realistically, you need 2 combat styles anyway, one of which should be melee(and range only with hex).

 

As for grimy, i think you are overestimating the stats on the armors npcs have. Your assumption is based on them having full armors with full stats, but i don't think that's the case. Monsters that are weak to a specific style are definitely in the 200 def max hit range based on accuracy.

[LatinII]

How good is Magic compared to Melee in Dungeoneering? Fire Surge with a celestial catalytic staff with T10 Blitzer compared to 99 Strength, Primal 2h and T10 Berserker?

fire surge with celestial cat staff is better damage output than a primal 2h without turmoil.

It's mostly the trouble of getting the fire surge runes.

Because even if you have endless fire surge with celestial cat staff, there's still the trouble of getting the fire runes which takes time.

celestial cat is not a bad 3rd bind though.

 

Thanks. I have bound a celestial catalytic staff to me a couple of days ago (ditched my platebody for it) and I can't say I've had any problems with running out of fire runes. You need 417 rune essence to make 1250 fire runes which is 20850 coins and monsters can drop more than 100 rune essence at once sometimes. I just craft the runes whenever there's nothing to do.

[Grimy_Bunyip]

How good is Magic compared to Melee in Dungeoneering? Fire Surge with a celestial catalytic staff with T10 Blitzer compared to 99 Strength, Primal 2h and T10 Berserker?

Magic isn't a style you should be using alone and nor is melee. Maxed mage(csb, cele cat, t9 blitzer/blazer) has roughly the same dps as prim 2h with t9 berserker, only that those bonuses apply to less monsters. Realistically, you need 2 combat styles anyway, one of which should be melee(and range only with hex).

 

As for grimy, i think you are overestimating the stats on the armors npcs have. Your assumption is based on them having full armors with full stats, but i don't think that's the case. Monsters that are weak to a specific style are definitely in the 200 def max hit range based on accuracy.

I estimated that the monsters had about 5 defense levels above the requirement of the level to wear the armor.

Which is fairly conservative considering tier 11 mages should have about 115 defense. Which is a good 16 levels over their respective tier.

Secondly I think full armor is a fair assumption when it comes to rangers/mages. Because they both wear full armor, and the accuracy on rangers would not be possible if they did not wear full armor.

[xpx]

How good is Magic compared to Melee in Dungeoneering? Fire Surge with a celestial catalytic staff with T10 Blitzer compared to 99 Strength, Primal 2h and T10 Berserker?

Magic isn't a style you should be using alone and nor is melee. Maxed mage(csb, cele cat, t9 blitzer/blazer) has roughly the same dps as prim 2h with t9 berserker, only that those bonuses apply to less monsters. Realistically, you need 2 combat styles anyway, one of which should be melee(and range only with hex).

 

As for grimy, i think you are overestimating the stats on the armors npcs have. Your assumption is based on them having full armors with full stats, but i don't think that's the case. Monsters that are weak to a specific style are definitely in the 200 def max hit range based on accuracy.

I estimated that the monsters had about 5 defense levels above the requirement of the level to wear the armor.

Which is fairly conservative considering tier 11 mages should have about 115 defense. Which is a good 16 levels over their respective tier.

Secondly I think full armor is a fair assumption when it comes to rangers/mages. Because they both wear full armor, and the accuracy on rangers would not be possible if they did not wear full armor.

Under that assumption your accuracy on t6 rangers with 2h or baxe would be around 60-70% range, which clearly seems bogus to me(they are only like level 60 monsters). I'm not saying that they don't wear full armor, but i think the armor they wear doesn't have the same stats as the ones monsters drop or you can make yourself. That way, jagex can easily manipulate defense into creating weaknesses for different classes, as we see from zombies and skeletons(and it's highly likely those monsters don't have any slash/crush armor on them at all).

[green9090]

]Under that assumption your accuracy on t6 rangers with 2h or baxe would be around 60-70% range, which clearly seems bogus to me

This. Something is wrong in the calculations here, because accuracy is barely an issue on rangers below t10 and mages below t9 or so. Accuracy only really becomes a problem for the battleaxe on very high defense monsters like bats, fire giants, high-tier warriors, etc. For bosses, they're usually ragered to hell, meaning that battleaxe ends up better on them than a 2h.

[Low C]

I have since stepped down from a leadership/administrative role in dgs and I see some new updates to the bind guidelines and such being very obtrusive to the eager learners of tip.it. Why exactly has it been decided that putting such guidelines is deemed necessary. I completely understand requiring people to switch from really crappy dps weapons to prom 2h's and such. However, requiring someone to switch from a Prim B axe, which I can see no difference in regards to Dps not plotted on a graph and shown on paper in comparison to a prom 2h, to be any better at speeding up a floor. I believe stressing initiative and having everyone learn to be a "wingman" would be the best route. Throwing an accumulation of more and more guidelines and requirements onto a new dungeoneer's load of things to remember is only going to turn people away and send this vision and mission of the clan to something more dge (dungeon elites) in vision.