Jump to content

15-Nov-2011 - Breaking Dicing


Carl

Recommended Posts

How is this going to stop people from using "human dice"?

 

All they have to do is to have a "referee" player speaking out random numbers, as if (s)he were a dice.

 

Not sure if just dumb.

 

How do someone know the "Referee" isn`t just a friend of the person you`re dicing againts?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Replies 240
  • Created
  • Last Reply

Top Posters In This Topic

How is this going to stop people from using "human dice"?

 

All they have to do is to have a "referee" player speaking out random numbers, as if (s)he were a dice.

 

Whats the NICEST way possible, of saying that this has to be one of the STUPIDEST ideas ever?

CLICK - 770th to 99 SLAYER 2/4/08 - 204th to 99 Summoning 7/1/08 CLICK

tifovsigev3.jpg

Druminator17.png

[Hide=List of Drops That I haven't updated in Years but want to keep in my Sig anyways...]VISAGE DROP - 12/06/07

3 Duo Sara Hilts, 3 Duo Arma Hilts, 2 Trio Arma Hilts.

Dark Bows: (11) Dragon Boots: (50!)

Whip Drops: (42!!!) Dragon Drops: (90+!!!!!) 2 D CHAINS!, 3 D Axe, 8 D meds, 7 left halfs, 7 D legs, 6 skirts, 8 Spears[/hide]

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The premise of the entire game is based around an RNG - the concept of gambling for money will emerge again, it'll take a little time but it's unlikely not to.

 

What's wrong with dicing again?

 

Nothing. It's your cash and you should be able to do what you want with it. People just complained because A) They lost their money, B) They got scammed out of their money and C) All the people advertising dicing games were annoying.

 

For me, only point C has any validity.

Not true, your gp is jagex property, otherwise you could freely sell it to other people to right? So jagex decides what you can do with it and what not.

 

I was speaking more about the morality of it.

It is forbidden in some country's to gamble when you are underage, this could include the dice bag in runescape and jagex could (not sure if possible) get sued for that.

 

Once again, speaking about morality of it, not legal implications. Sex between a man and another man is illegal in some states in the US, does that make it immoral? No. A little gross maybe, but not immoral. :P

 

Drum, that was as nice as it could be put.

Was Deathknell, but the password recovery never worked for me. So I'm this now. Whatever. Someone get me some damn fried chicken!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Not necessarily.

 

One way to ensure neutrality would be to play the game in a closed friend/clan chat, while the "referee" uses public chat. Each player would have their private chat turned off. That way, the "referee" cannot tell a dicer what number to pick, or even see who is playing. Alternatively, they can pay a passerby to utter a random number between 1 and 6, etc.

 

Edit: I wonder how long it will be before someone makes an auto-talker that gives out random numbers. :lol:

ixfd64.png

 

ARENAscape:

 

Baratus [AS] max hit: 166 with Moon Battle Hammer

ixfd64 [AS] max hit: 116 with (untitled spell #2)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

BTW, as any Magic: The Gathering player will tell you, the correct term is GUB, not BBG. :ugeek:

 

=D =D =D

 

TRADE LIMITS WILL SAVE US

 

No seriously, they will.

 

Idiots gunna gamble. Simple as that. And I'm all for the exploitation of stupidity.

 

Lol. The worse part is you're right.

 

Frankly, I'm indifferent to this; yeah, a fair amount of hosts would scam, but you can find trustful hosts if you look around. And as I sad before, I think anyone who diced who wasn't hosting is/was an idiot. Regardless of whether or not the host was a scammer.

 

I wonder if this is a step to them admitting their 'update for clans LOL!' items for events, designed with no true purpose to allow for 'emergent gameplay', was a bust.

 

The problem is they didn't like the gameplay that emerged.

 

How is this going to stop people from using "human dice"?

 

All they have to do is to have a "referee" player speaking out random numbers, as if (s)he were a dice.

 

How in the 7 flying [bleep]ing hells is that not going to be rigged?

 

Here's the thing - for a dice game varient to work, it needs to be something with, judging by past games I've seen, higher then 50/50 odds but equal or lower then, say, 1/3 odds. The numbers have to work in a way that the hosts can make money over time, while keeping the balance off odds vs reward high enough that people will still gamble. It won't be nearly as effective if it can't work in the GE. And it needs to be something that can't be easily manipulated.

 

Lastly, can't be something Jagex can easily fix.

 

Flowers - planted in a non-changing pattern.

 

Horses - you say all the phrases in consequetive order.

 

I saw a comment on odd vs even hit - that's probably going to be exactly a 50/50 ratio, something you can't profit with over time. I thought of 1hit k0s on weak monsters, but that could be manipulated with brews or other potions. Plus it's hard

 

Quite frankly though, the biggest issue is that whatever players come up with, Jagex will probably keep nerfing the game until people run out of ideas.

Squab unleashes Megiddo! Completed all quests and hard diaries. 75+ Skiller. (At one point.) 2000+ total. 99 Magic.
[spoiler=The rest of my sig. You know you wanna see it.]

my difinition of noob is i dont like u, either u are better then me or u are worst them me

Buying spins make you a bad person...don't do it. It's like buying nukes for North Korea.

Well if it bothers you that the game is more fun now, then you can go cry in a corner. :shame:

your article was the equivalent of a circumcized porcupine

The only thing wrong with it is the lack of a percentage for when you need to stroke it.

 


7ApdH.png
squabharpy.png
Poignant Purple to Lokie's Ravishing Red and Alg's Brilliant Blue.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

the fact that so many people could make money and produce no resources kinda hurts the economy.

But that's wrong. It only relocates money, it doesn't affect the economy. One could argue that without this, they will turn to gathering resources, but merchanting has always been a prominent factor on deciding player wealth (merely relocating player wealth, just like dicing), and I doubt dicers will attempt to grow fortunes by fishing or woodcutting.

 

Relocating money is exactly the problem. The idea that these people aren't gathering any resources, or doing anything besides taking someone's money is what gives it a negative economic impact. It's just making money off of money, not contributing to the market at all.

 

You could argue that item flipping and merching is the same in that effect, but it's somewhat different. When you're playing the stock market game there's certainly some risk involved. On the other hand, all you do for dicing is rig the odds (55% chance of the host winning) and take people's money. Then there's some kinda of "dice mafia" thing going on with rich players defending their "turf" by threatening other dicers with mutes from Player Mods that they payed off. It's friggin' crazy...

 

I'm glad dicing is gone. Gambling isn't what Runescape is about,. It just sours my play experience when people make billions doing nothing but rigging a dice game to take advantage of gullible people. Then here I am with hardly any money even though I actually work about ten times as hard as these scammers.

 

Not necessarily.

 

One way to ensure neutrality would be to play the game in a closed friend/clan chat, while the "referee" uses public chat. Each player would have their private chat turned off. That way, the "referee" cannot tell a dicer what number to pick, or even see who is playing. Alternatively, they can pay a passerby to utter a random number between 1 and 6, etc.

 

Edit: I wonder how long it will be before someone makes an auto-talker that gives out random numbers. :lol:

 

^This is easily the worst idea since dehydrated water.

trains2.png

[spoiler=I LOVE MY STATION]

 

01001001001001110110110100100000010101000111011101100101011011000111011001100101

00100000011000010110111001100100001000000111011101101000011000010111010000100000

0110100101110011001000000111010001101000011010010111001100111111

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Scamming, by definition, entails deception - legitimate hosting itself does not involve deception as it's a consensual risk that users take, so no it's not scamming.

 

Their accumulated wealth isn't simply stored in the form of gold pieces either - many hosts expend on goods like you and I. The economic arguments seem rather weak for this type of emergent gameplay, except for the effects of RWTing using the dice.

 

I personally don't see much of a morality issue with dicing - the issue itself is the scamming. If that's all JaGex wants to resolve, then inform players - the problem is information failure, not dicing itself.

 

Bah, JaGex has initiated some rather unnecessary clamour. *sigh*

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I give it less than a week until the majority of the dicers have found out new, good ways to keep earning money of players gambling. This was a really unnecessary update. Sorry, Jagex, but this battle is already lost. As long as you don't remove gp from the game, gambling will be in RS.

lGxorje.png

 

Add me if you so wish: SwreeTak

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I'll admit that my original "idea" wasn't very bright. But my point is, people can gamble as long as there is a way to generate a random number. For example:

 

1. Asking a passerby to utter a random number (as I just mentioned)

2. The number of characters in the name of the next player who passes through the Al Kharid gate

3. The number of hits it takes to kill a cockroach soldier

4. The amount of damage inflicted by a fire blast (assuming it's uniformly distributed)

5. Betting on a staker

6. The number of iron ores that are successfully smelted

 

With regards to damage done, one simple rule would be "Is the number is a multiple of 2 or 3?" That would provide a nice 2:3 probability.

ixfd64.png

 

ARENAscape:

 

Baratus [AS] max hit: 166 with Moon Battle Hammer

ixfd64 [AS] max hit: 116 with (untitled spell #2)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

^ Problem is those things are NOT random

 

Ask someone a number between 1 and 100, you will get more 17s, 7s, 43s, 77s than other numbers for one thing

 

 

All of those ideas are all terrible.

Check it out, huge amount of effort has gone into this massive mod!

ODG6e0M.png

[hide=old sig]

newsig.png

[/hide]

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I love how people aren't focusing on the removal of something that was ruining the game and are instead focusing on some contradiction Jagex stated. Get a grip people.

Dicing was hardly ruining the game, get off your high horse. It was more honest than armor trimming or any other sort of trust trade scam, and those hardly affecting the game.

Dicing was the second largest supplier of RWT gold, after botting. It also created an annoying community of 'elite' dicers who acted like they owned the GE.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I love how people aren't focusing on the removal of something that was ruining the game and are instead focusing on some contradiction Jagex stated. Get a grip people.

Dicing was hardly ruining the game, get off your high horse. It was more honest than armor trimming or any other sort of trust trade scam, and those hardly affecting the game.

Dicing was the second largest supplier of RWT gold, after botting. It also created an annoying community of 'elite' dicers who acted like they owned the GE.

 

Since we're both operating on speculation, we can't be certain what created most RWT gold. I'd argue that staking is used more frequently for RWT activities, as people trust the system with more risk as no one 'holds' the money.

 

The community problem is more of a player attitude problem that's likely to have occurred by other means anyway - by no means the fault of the concept of dicing itself.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Once again, we can act all huffy about this and that, but the real reason for the removal is that Jagex wants to protect the chil'run from losing their money by their own foolishness and quitting the game.

 

The impact on people that ran real games is minimal. Figure out another way to make cash. Even if you got screwed with, you didn't really lose anything here.

Was Deathknell, but the password recovery never worked for me. So I'm this now. Whatever. Someone get me some damn fried chicken!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

"Human Dice"

 

Requires three people: Host, Countdown person, Better

Host advertises: "Human Dice, x1.9 on Evens"

Better offers up cash, Host calculates wager x 1.9 and calls out payout on win.

Host and Better each type 1 number (0 to 9) and a string of 20 random characters and waits to press enter.

Countdown person counts down "3" enter "2" enter "1" enter "Go"

Both host and better press enter. Any delay of either person nullifies that round.

Countdown person adds up the two numbers and calls out if the sum is even or odd

Pay out better if sum is even

wash, rinse, repeat.

 

This cannot be removed at all unless jagex installs balanced trade again.

 

Variant:

 

Use two emotes to choose from, pay out if better and host both perform the same emote. Still needs a third person to say go.

nukemarine.png

Learn how to Learn Japanese on your own - Nukemarine's Suggested Guide for Beginners in Japanese
Stop Forgetting Stuff for College and Life - Anki - a program which makes remembering things easy
Reach Elite Fitness - CrossFit

Link to comment
Share on other sites

How is this going to stop people from using "human dice"?

 

All they have to do is to have a "referee" player speaking out random numbers, as if (s)he were a dice.

 

Whats the NICEST way possible, of saying that this has to be one of the STUPIDEST ideas ever?

 

No, the stupidest idea ever, would be actually buying into that shit.

 

[bleep] OFF HOW ARE U SO [bleep]ING LUCKY U PIECE OF [bleep]ING SHIT [bleep] [bleep] [wagon] MUNCHER

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Please start dicing on odd/even hits from punching guards. I want to see them try to remove RNG in combat, or make hits invisible to others :rolleyes:

 

At least that gets spammers and gamblers out of the GE. However, the punching can be oh so slightly modified so the max hit is an even number. Assuming 0 also counts as an even number, and max is 8 then you have 5 numbers to 4. If zero is said not to count, then raise strength so max is 9 giving 5 odd and 4 even. Take that back, he can probably switch between punch, kick or block to skew the result to his advantage.

 

If you go with my idea (better and host both call out a number at the same time, add together for even/odd result; both perform one of two emotes of match/no match result), then that can be done at the GE.

nukemarine.png

Learn how to Learn Japanese on your own - Nukemarine's Suggested Guide for Beginners in Japanese
Stop Forgetting Stuff for College and Life - Anki - a program which makes remembering things easy
Reach Elite Fitness - CrossFit

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Please start dicing on odd/even hits from punching guards. I want to see them try to remove RNG in combat, or make hits invisible to others :rolleyes:

It'll be hilarious when people start stealing the guards <3

 

As for NukeMarine's idea, it should be possible to create a script that reads the other player's message, removes the random letters, and posts the correct response within a fraction of a second. Not safe at all.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Please start dicing on odd/even hits from punching guards. I want to see them try to remove RNG in combat, or make hits invisible to others :rolleyes:

It'll be hilarious when people start stealing the guards <3

 

As for NukeMarine's idea, it should be possible to create a script that reads the other player's message, removes the random letters, and posts the correct response within a fraction of a second. Not safe at all.

I would figure that problems with lag, especially on trade worlds would be the biggest issue. If the syncing is too far off then the calls won't match cause it looks like each guy is cheating. My understanding of the anti spam is it now prevents rapid typing, so I don't think that'll work within a reasonable time frame (main reason I said to have the number and 20 characters of garbage que'd up). If that's not the case then yes, it won't take much to undermine this either. I'll defer to the scripters if such a thing is reasonable.

 

Of course, there's Rock, Paper, Scissor emotes in the Clan Citadels. However, if a screen scraper can see letters and numbers, it's possible they'll see specific emotes.

 

For now, if the Seal emote works, I guess they can have two people side by side playing as the dice.

nukemarine.png

Learn how to Learn Japanese on your own - Nukemarine's Suggested Guide for Beginners in Japanese
Stop Forgetting Stuff for College and Life - Anki - a program which makes remembering things easy
Reach Elite Fitness - CrossFit

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Of course its not dead. Theres irl money in it, you'd be desperate for a work around too if you were selling rs gold for rl cash.

 

:(

612d9da508.png

Mercifull.png

Mercifull <3 Suzi

"We don't want players to be able to buy their way to success in RuneScape. If we let players start doing this, it devalues RuneScape for others. We feel your status in real-life shouldn't affect your ability to be successful in RuneScape" Jagex 01/04/01 - 02/03/12

Link to comment
Share on other sites

As predicted, a black market has spawned.

 

This'll be more risky for the consumer - it's easier to hide an elaborate algorithm that'll side with a specific person (in this case, DragonDyce) in an irc bot than it would be for an ingame dice. In other words, the odds could be highly stacked against a player in an act of desperation without the consumer actually knowing. It'll be harder to prove scamming too - timestamps don't exist on RuneScape's chat box.

 

Let's see how JaGex deals with this.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now

×
×
  • Create New...

Important Information

By using this site, you agree to our Terms of Use.