Well Known RWT'rs banned.

[Zerker_Jane]

You're assuming Jagex is going to even press charges. Highly doubt Jagex is pressing charges on an 18 year old.

 

Nothing will happen. The irs is not going to come chasing down these kids. The u.s. government is not going to do anything. A very small few made a shady couple hundred thousand on the internet. They'll get banned, that's it.

 

If I am wrong, I will gladly eat my words. But nothing will happen.

 

You're wrong.

[Artemis1330]

Thanks for your brilliant contribution.

[n64jive]

I would say that those who haven't been banned are likely waiting for the bot nuke. The bot nuke should drive up RWT prices, however the CE may also affect those prices. It's a gamble.

 

As for IRS gains and money launder, etc....That can all be handled with an offshore bank account. They are really not hard to get. The government isn't going to be too concerned either over a couple hundred grand being "laundered". In the event one of the actions does trigger an audit, it is very unlikely it would trigger anything more then back-taxes.

 

They could lie and say they obtained the funds playing poker online. Online gambling is illegal, but the government doesn't seize the money nor charge fines(except for taxes and tax penalties) on payouts. They would simply believe you, say you owe for the taxes on those earnings, and probably an additional 10% as penalties.

 

This is all if they got caught. I would put it at 50/50.

[Logdotzip]

Well I don't believe they'll caught caught or prosecuted regardless, I only say that because Jacmob had a conversation with a friend once asking for the names of all the major RWTers followed by letting him know that he's definitely considering legal action.

 

RWT is extremely big, bigger than it ever has been. I have friends who stake and DDoS and make $3k a week steady. I'm not saying I agree with those actions, but if you can make three thousand dollars a week off some game, power to you. People literally live off this shit. So when Jacmob said that to my friend (who himself was a RWTer and was offered amnesty by Jacmob in exchange for names), it could be serious.

 

But all Jmods are so full of shit that it's probably nothing to worry about for the stakers / RWTers

[RU_Insane]

I imagine Jagex would be concerned with the laundering of what is essentially their property, especially if that unreported revenue can be seized and redirected to corporate funds (is that possible?). Why wouldn't they pursue action if RWT has ballooned to this point? They took down iBot and RSBuddy, can't they take down the other major players?

[n64jive]

Well I don't believe they'll caught caught or prosecuted regardless, I only say that because Jacmob had a conversation with a friend once asking for the names of all the major RWTers followed by letting him know that he's definitely considering legal action.

 

RWT is extremely big, bigger than it ever has been. I have friends who stake and DDoS and make $3k a week steady. I'm not saying I agree with those actions, but if you can make three thousand dollars a week off some game, power to you. People literally live off this shit. So when Jacmob said that to my friend (who himself was a RWTer and was offered amnesty by Jacmob in exchange for names), it could be serious.

 

But all Jmods are so full of shit that it's probably nothing to worry about for the stakers / RWTers

 

That actually seems like a pretty reasonable figure. Gold prices seem to be around $0.45/million. This means that $3,000 is roughly 6.666 billion. If you can make 100m/hour from staking (especially with DDoSing), that would equate to about 66 hours a week, which is easily obtainable. I would assume that they probably play much less and make much more an hour if those are the figures they make. 200m/hour would get them down to 33 hours a week, which is probably on the low end.

 

Mod Mark and MMG have stated that RWTer's and bots are scum of the game...but the fact is they created a game that is sooooooo time consuming and based around end game content that and black market industry has risen that literally produces incomes that top entry level engineers. Instead of going to college for 5 years to become a computer engineer, I could have instead focused on the simple task of bot farming and gold selling.

 

It really puts things into perspective. Runescape is a game, but creative minds turned it into a business. Can't really fault them all that much for that.

 

 

I imagine Jagex would be concerned with the laundering of what is essentially their property, especially if that unreported revenue can be seized and redirected to corporate funds (is that possible?). Why wouldn't they pursue action if RWT has ballooned to this point? They took down iBot and RSBuddy, can't they take down the other major players?

 

Mainly because the burden of proof falls on Jagex. The legality of the sale of virtual property currently has no case-laws. It's a very small topic on the national scale and honestly, most court systems would probably throw it out because of this. You could easily afford a lawyer that would likely get the case dismissed in short notice, especially making 200k/year.

 

I think if Jagex had any sort of case, you would have heard about something by now.

[Mercifull]

In the recent RS Livestream they specifically mentioned some people by name that they were going to persue court cases against civilly AND also that they were prepping evidence criminally (this could perhaps be in relation to laundering or tax evasion). In that example they were talking about bot developers but they also mentioned ongoing cases and preparation for cases against gold sellers. Whether anything will ever come to fruition on that we don't yet know but Jagex aren't sitting back any more and letting people make money using their IP.

[Stev]

Mainly because the burden of proof falls on Jagex.

And then we hear, "We weren't selling the gold, we were selling our time and resources collecting it."

 

:P.

[Guest jrhairychest]

For a couple hundred grand? no...

 

No way in hell any kid under 20 is going to prison for not paying taxes on illegitimate game earnings. Fines? Unlikely, but maybe.

 

The only time I am aware of someone being taken to court over runescape was those bot developers some time ago, and they made millions. Don't recall for sure, but pretty sure there was no jail time.

 

You're assuming Jagex is going to even press charges. Highly doubt Jagex is pressing charges on an 18 year old.

 

Nothing will happen. The irs is not going to come chasing down these kids. The u.s. government is not going to do anything. A very small few made a shady couple hundred thousand on the internet. They'll get banned, that's it.

 

If I am wrong, I will gladly eat my words. But nothing will happen.

 

Some things you might want to consider.........

• As soon as anyone hits 18 they're tried in court as an adult. Referring to an 18 or 20 year old as a kid doesn't wash in court. The law judges you the same as if you were a 40 year old.
  
• Tax evasion in the UK and the US is one of the most 'jailable' offences. You're more likely to be jailed for tax evasion than murder. Ask Al Capone...well....if he was still alive.
  
• A few hundred thousand is very taxable. People have been hounded by the taxation systems in many countries for less. For example, not paying your monthly rates (poll tax) in the UK you are normally jailed for around a month to 6 weeks alone for a sum that can be as measly as £50 ($75). Govenments just won't tolerate it.
  

[Blyaunte]

For a couple hundred grand? no...

 

No way in hell any kid under 20 is going to prison for not paying taxes on illegitimate game earnings. Fines? Unlikely, but maybe.

 

The only time I am aware of someone being taken to court over runescape was those bot developers some time ago, and they made millions. Don't recall for sure, but pretty sure there was no jail time.

 

You're assuming Jagex is going to even press charges. Highly doubt Jagex is pressing charges on an 18 year old.

 

Nothing will happen. The irs is not going to come chasing down these kids. The u.s. government is not going to do anything. A very small few made a shady couple hundred thousand on the internet. They'll get banned, that's it.

 

If I am wrong, I will gladly eat my words. But nothing will happen.

 

Some things you might want to consider.........

• As soon as anyone hits 18 they're tried in court as an adult. Referring to an 18 or 20 year old as a kid doesn't wash in court. The law judges you the same as if you were a 40 year old.
  
• Tax evasion in the UK and the US is one of the most 'jailable' offences. You're more likely to be jailed for tax evasion than murder. Ask Al Capone...well....if he was still alive.
  
• A few hundred thousand is very taxable. People have been hounded by the taxation systems in many countries for less. For example, not paying your monthly rates (poll tax) in the UK you are normally jailed for around a month to 6 weeks alone for a sum that can be as measly as £50 ($75). Govenments just won't tolerate it.
  

 

Just to add to this, in most Western jurisdictions, anyone under 18 who commits an "adult" crime can be tried as an adult if the Courts deem that said individual had the capacity to determine what they were doing was wrong.

 

Additionally, the tax rate on $200K "earned" in one year is huge. It is extremely unlikely that any taxing authority is simply going to look the other way when someone is making that kind of money and not paying taxes on it.

 

Not to mention that spreading such cash around to various accounts only makes it look even more specious. Under today's "Proceeds of Crime" and "Anti-Terror" legislation, the government watches large sums of money (i.e. anything over $5,000.00) whenever it is being transferred around, no matter who's name it may happen to be in.

 

Just sayin' ...

[n64jive]

For a couple hundred grand? no...

 

No way in hell any kid under 20 is going to prison for not paying taxes on illegitimate game earnings. Fines? Unlikely, but maybe.

 

The only time I am aware of someone being taken to court over runescape was those bot developers some time ago, and they made millions. Don't recall for sure, but pretty sure there was no jail time.

 

You're assuming Jagex is going to even press charges. Highly doubt Jagex is pressing charges on an 18 year old.

 

Nothing will happen. The irs is not going to come chasing down these kids. The u.s. government is not going to do anything. A very small few made a shady couple hundred thousand on the internet. They'll get banned, that's it.

 

If I am wrong, I will gladly eat my words. But nothing will happen.

 

Some things you might want to consider.........

• As soon as anyone hits 18 they're tried in court as an adult. Referring to an 18 or 20 year old as a kid doesn't wash in court. The law judges you the same as if you were a 40 year old.
  
• Tax evasion in the UK and the US is one of the most 'jailable' offences. You're more likely to be jailed for tax evasion than murder. Ask Al Capone...well....if he was still alive.
  
• A few hundred thousand is very taxable. People have been hounded by the taxation systems in many countries for less. For example, not paying your monthly rates (poll tax) in the UK you are normally jailed for around a month to 6 weeks alone for a sum that can be as measly as £50 ($75). Govenments just won't tolerate it.
  

 

Just to add to this, in most Western jurisdictions, anyone under 18 who commits an "adult" crime can be tried as an adult if the Courts deem that said individual had the capacity to determine what they were doing was wrong.

 

Additionally, the tax rate on $200K "earned" in one year is huge. It is extremely unlikely that any taxing authority is simply going to look the other way when someone is making that kind of money and not paying taxes on it.

 

Not to mention that spreading such cash around to various accounts only makes it look even more specious. Under today's "Proceeds of Crime" and "Anti-Terror" legislation, the government watches large sums of money (i.e. anything over $5,000.00) whenever it is being transferred around, no matter who's name it may happen to be in.

 

Just sayin' ...

 

If the person didn't claim the income on their tax return in 2013, they would be required to pay back taxes and a penalty when they got caught. The only reason they would be jailed would be if they failed to pay the taxes.

 

Long story short, these kids/young adults lives will not be ruined...

[Kaida23]

Long story short, these kids/young adults lives will not be ruined...

Except for possibly having a criminal record of tax evasion, which could exclude them from any number of career paths and have the IRS looking a lot closer at their tax returns for the next decade or so.

 

Some things follow you forever.

[Blyaunte]

For a couple hundred grand? no...

 

No way in hell any kid under 20 is going to prison for not paying taxes on illegitimate game earnings. Fines? Unlikely, but maybe.

 

The only time I am aware of someone being taken to court over runescape was those bot developers some time ago, and they made millions. Don't recall for sure, but pretty sure there was no jail time.

 

You're assuming Jagex is going to even press charges. Highly doubt Jagex is pressing charges on an 18 year old.

 

Nothing will happen. The irs is not going to come chasing down these kids. The u.s. government is not going to do anything. A very small few made a shady couple hundred thousand on the internet. They'll get banned, that's it.

 

If I am wrong, I will gladly eat my words. But nothing will happen.

 

Some things you might want to consider.........

• As soon as anyone hits 18 they're tried in court as an adult. Referring to an 18 or 20 year old as a kid doesn't wash in court. The law judges you the same as if you were a 40 year old.
  
• Tax evasion in the UK and the US is one of the most 'jailable' offences. You're more likely to be jailed for tax evasion than murder. Ask Al Capone...well....if he was still alive.
  
• A few hundred thousand is very taxable. People have been hounded by the taxation systems in many countries for less. For example, not paying your monthly rates (poll tax) in the UK you are normally jailed for around a month to 6 weeks alone for a sum that can be as measly as £50 ($75). Govenments just won't tolerate it.
  

 

Just to add to this, in most Western jurisdictions, anyone under 18 who commits an "adult" crime can be tried as an adult if the Courts deem that said individual had the capacity to determine what they were doing was wrong.

 

Additionally, the tax rate on $200K "earned" in one year is huge. It is extremely unlikely that any taxing authority is simply going to look the other way when someone is making that kind of money and not paying taxes on it.

 

Not to mention that spreading such cash around to various accounts only makes it look even more specious. Under today's "Proceeds of Crime" and "Anti-Terror" legislation, the government watches large sums of money (i.e. anything over $5,000.00) whenever it is being transferred around, no matter who's name it may happen to be in.

 

Just sayin' ...

 

If the person didn't claim the income on their tax return in 2013, they would be required to pay back taxes and a penalty when they got caught. The only reason they would be jailed would be if they failed to pay the taxes.

 

Long story short, these kids/young adults lives will not be ruined...

 

Um -- you may want to check your facts:

 

Under the UK's Proceeds of Crime Act, 2002: http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2002/29/section/334

 

334 Penalties

 

(1)A person guilty of an offence under section 327, 328 or 329 is liable—

(a)on summary conviction, to imprisonment for a term not exceeding six months or to a fine not exceeding the statutory maximum or to both, or

(b)on conviction on indictment, to imprisonment for a term not exceeding 14 years or to a fine or to both.

(2)A person guilty of an offence under section 330, 331, 332 or 333 is liable—

(a)on summary conviction, to imprisonment for a term not exceeding six months or to a fine not exceeding the statutory maximum or to both, or

(b)on conviction on indictment, to imprisonment for a term not exceeding five years or to a fine or to both.

 

You will find similar provisions under U.S. Law -- look it up under The Patriot Act -- and under Canada's The Proceeds of Crime (money Laundering) and Terrorist Financing Act.

 

If what they're doing is considered "criminal", in that they received funds through an illegal operation, and then hid said funds in order not to claim the income therefrom, they're pretty much guilty under these laws and will be punished to the full extent of same.

[Failed Acct]

I understand the majority here are probably young and naive with mommy and daddy worrying about the taxes, but saying that this is not a serious offence is laughable. Earning 200k in one year in the united states puts you in one of the top tax brackets, and you can expect to owe about a third of that to the government. The idiot kids probably blew all the money on stupid crap, and if they can't come up with ~65k they WILL go to jail and it WILL permanently affect them.

 

There is a reason for the quote "Nothing is certain but death and taxes"

[Mercifull]

Exactly. Take the recent case of Bob Ashford, Police and Crime Commissioner candidate. He was forced to stand down from the application after it was discovered he was convicted of trespass in 1966 and fined £2. The fact he has been working in the Youth Offending Service for the last 30 years still didn't mean he was able to go for the top job that he wanted because of a silly mistake when he was 13 years old.

[Blyaunte]

Ah -- in Canada, the penalties are quite interesting:

 

http://www.fintrac.gc.ca/pen/1-eng.asp

 

FINTRAC may disclose cases of non-compliance to law enforcement when there is extensive non-compliance or little expectation of immediate or future compliance. Criminal penalties may include the following:

 

Failure to report suspicious transactions: up to $2 million and/or 5 years imprisonment.

Failure to report a large cash transaction or an electronic funds transfer: up to $500,000 for the first offence, $1 million for subsequent offences.

Failure to meet record keeping requirements: up to $500,000 and/or 5 years imprisonment.

Failure to provide assistance or provide information during compliance examination: up to $500,000 and/or 5 years imprisonment.

Disclosing the fact that a suspicious transaction report was made, or disclosing the contents of such a report, with the intent to prejudice a criminal investigation: up to 2 years imprisonment.

[n64jive]

If you don't pay your taxes, you aren't immediately hauled off to jail. They send out a notice and you are usually forced to pay the backtaxes with penalty. My father has been a CPA for over 30 years.

 

Next, it's quite easy to get quite a bit of that money back. Taxes may be certain, but when you are talking about 66k in taxes, there are many things you can do to probably reclaim at least half of that.

[ilovecuttingyews]

If you don't pay your taxes, you aren't immediately hauled off to jail. They send out a notice and you are usually forced to pay the backtaxes with penalty. My father has been a CPA for over 30 years.

 

Next, it's quite easy to get quite a bit of that money back. Taxes may be certain, but when you are talking about 66k in taxes, there are many things you can do to probably reclaim at least half of that.

Especially if they're still students. I don't know about other places, but I get a massive percentage back (I'm thinking close to all of it) simply because I'm a student.

[999134]

It seems unlikely they are going to be made to repay any of it, won't believe it until I see it, its like telling drug sellers to pay tax.

[Guest jrhairychest]

If you don't pay your taxes, you aren't immediately hauled off to jail. They send out a notice and you are usually forced to pay the backtaxes with penalty. My father has been a CPA for over 30 years.

 

Next, it's quite easy to get quite a bit of that money back. Taxes may be certain, but when you are talking about 66k in taxes, there are many things you can do to probably reclaim at least half of that.

 

I think you missed the point of the whole conversation. Everyone knows that you get notice of payment. The point was that people think they're immune from paying tax or they get a slap on a wrist if they refuse to pay because they're a 'kid' of 18-20. Ask your dad what happens if someone ignores payment orders or refuses to pay up whether they're 18 or 80. Of course, you could possibly claim half of that back but as a judge may rule in favour of it being illegal anway there's a good chance that it will all go back to the government or Jagex depending on which court you're in. Your dad should have already told you that as I don't think you get tax breaks for illegal activity. And before anyone harps on about Jagex not suing, the last guy Jagex sued had to release a statement about being a bad boy, promising never to do it again and paying back substantial damages.

[n64jive]

If you don't pay your taxes, you aren't immediately hauled off to jail. They send out a notice and you are usually forced to pay the backtaxes with penalty. My father has been a CPA for over 30 years.

 

Next, it's quite easy to get quite a bit of that money back. Taxes may be certain, but when you are talking about 66k in taxes, there are many things you can do to probably reclaim at least half of that.

 

I think you missed the point of the whole conversation. Everyone knows that you get notice of payment. The point was that people think they're immune from paying tax or they get a slap on a wrist if they refuse to pay because they're a 'kid' of 18-20. Ask your dad what happens if someone ignores payment orders or refuses to pay up whether they're 18 or 80. Of course, you could possibly claim half of that back but as a judge may rule in favour of it being illegal anway there's a good chance that it will all go back to the government or Jagex depending on which court you're in. Your dad should have already told you that as I don't think you get tax breaks for illegal activity. And before anyone harps on about Jagex not suing, the last guy Jagex sued had to release a statement about being a bad boy, promising never to do it again and paying back substantial damages.

 

You are making assumptions that these kids/young adults/whatever would not pay the taxes. Third, the guy you are talking about is Eric and Mark Snellman. They were not sued for RWT but rather for their software, impulse software, which was botting software and violated a shit ton of copyright/DMA laws. Fourth, there has never been a case against the sale of virtual goods as there is currently no laws against selling virtual goods. Finally, even if there was, how could Jagex prove it. An uneven trade in game doesn't constitute the sale of virtual goods.

 

I think you are the one missing the point of the whole conversation.

Edited September 20, 2012 by Kimberly
removed off topic conersation

[Guest jrhairychest]

Third, the guy you are talking about is Eric and Mark Snellman. They were not sued for RWT but rather for their software, impulse software, which was botting software and violated a shit ton of copyright/DMA laws. Fourth, there has never been a case against the sale of virtual goods as there is currently no laws against selling virtual goods. Finally, even if there was, how could Jagex prove it. An uneven trade in game doesn't constitute the sale of virtual goods.

The same experts that said on these forums that Jagex couldn't/wouldn't sue the software makers as it didn't violate those respective laws? The same people who now harp on that RWT can't be proven/sued for, yet it's never been tested?. You can guarantee that can't you.....No I didn't think so.

Edited September 20, 2012 by Kimberly
removed off topic conversation

[n64jive]

Third, the guy you are talking about is Eric and Mark Snellman. They were not sued for RWT but rather for their software, impulse software, which was botting software and violated a shit ton of copyright/DMA laws. Fourth, there has never been a case against the sale of virtual goods as there is currently no laws against selling virtual goods. Finally, even if there was, how could Jagex prove it. An uneven trade in game doesn't constitute the sale of virtual goods.

The same experts that said on these forums that Jagex couldn't/wouldn't sue the software makers as it didn't violate those respective laws? The same people who now harp on that RWT can't be proven/sued for, yet it's never been tested?. You can guarantee that can't you.....No I didn't think so.

 

What is your point again?

Edited September 20, 2012 by Kimberly
adjusted post to reflect corrected originals

[MTheory]

They said on the live stream they are going after the current two biggest botting sites and suing their owners

[n64jive]

They said on the live stream they are going after the current two biggest botting sites and suing their owners

 

I thought this thread was about RWT.