Vorago Teaser - June 24th

[Hedgehog]

I don't think the boss that drops the 2nd highest tier of weapons should be that hard.

[Quyneax]

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I'm not a huge boss hunter, so forgive me if I sound rude or ignorant. But could elaborate on what mechanics would make a good boss? I thought KK was good and that RS players were just so resourceful that they figured out how to duo him. Obviously he was not, so I wanna know, what actual mechanics do you have in mind?

 

Use of environmental effects - e.g. since this is set in a cave, falling rocks that kind of thing that the player has to move out of the way of.

 

Use of defensive abilities - have the boss have something like reflect, to make players think more carefully about when they use abilities. (Nex and KK do this a bit, but having the damage reflected would make it more important)

 

Attacks that do more damage to people wearing gear of a certain class.

 

Locational damage - think the QBD super hot breath attack. But you could have a bit of a twist so that whilst this attack is active, if the player stands closer to the source of the damage, the player damage is also increased, meaning the player has to balance damage taken vs damage dealt.

 

A higher emphasis on DPS in aggro calculations (if one player can tank whilst the rest of the team just goes max DPS on the boss, it makes things unnecessarily easy.)

 

Minions/Adds that aren't completely trivial to deal with or completely ignorable. Perhaps have killing the minions be optional, but relate the boss's damage somehow to the number of minions (with a cap to) so that killing the minions will make the kill easier, but slower. E.g. if all minions are dead the boss deals 75% damage for the rest of the fight.

 

If the boss is magic based, have it be more susceptible to normal/ancient spells in different phases so your team requires players on both spellbooks.

 

Just off the top of my head :P

[/hide]

It's important to think of the things that players can use: Abilities, prayers, style switching, movement, designated roles, food, familiars and cannons. Both monsters and players should be able to use all of these - boss mechanics will decide whether the cannon is worth it.

 

Monster health, autoattacks and defence are just ways to keep a constant pressure on the players. For example in pre-EoC Nex you saw that players were using the most tanky gear possible (Pernix, divine, even SoL tanks on ice phase) because the pressure was very high. Post-EoC Nex you see that only the tank really bothers (and helps the team, with Provoke and luring for example), the pressure is lower - also because Nex herself is less tanky, so phases are shorter.

[/hide]

So what your are saying is that this boss should combine the abilities use of warband NPCs, the style switching and 1 hit ko of KK, the phases and prayer of Nex, and the healing abilities of current bosses, including in dungeoneering bosses? Basically the best traits of current bosses. Just to be clear. Because if that's what you are saying that sound very tough for players to fight. I'd be scared to try it.

Not all of them.

 

Basics of a boss designed at tier 11:

1. Level 110 defence and constitution. 4400 base health, roughly 1500 base armour.
   
2. Level 110 armour - just the main pieces, no capes or anything. That puts the total health up to 4400 + 6600, 11000 health - 12650 with shield. About 1500+3000 armour, 1500+3800 armour with a shield. By comparison, the highest armour a player can currently get (outside of DG etc.) is about 1213+2088.
   
3. Level 110 food - 2200 per bite. Assuming 28 inventory spaces, the total health is 11000-72600 excluding healing from abilities. Probably about 20 spaces on food, good for 55k total health.
   
4. Level 110 potions - Overloads are at 3+15% boost, rounded down, so that's 19 levels, but a better tier of potion should be 4+18%, a boost of 23 levels.
   
5. Prayer restore - If it's a divine or semi-divine being close to a god, like Mahjarrat or Nex, assume a going rate of 10 points per second or so. That's enough to keep turmoil and soul split going, but no more - sufficient Smite/Soul Split damage would eventually disable prayers. A couple of flasks of super (or extreme) prayer potion (565/dose for extreme) should serve as backup. Unintelligent creatures like kalphites shouldn't use prayers, just high armour and damage reduction.
   
6. One positive passive ability - it can be something like an aura (Vampirism, Penance, Aegis), a spirit shield effect (30% damage reduction with prayer drain), the blood necklace effect (on steroids as appropriate), poison, reach with melee (halberd, combine with knockback and stun for extrasuperfuntimes), Ancient Magic effects (blood, ice), casting Disrupt Shield and Vengeance (technically not passive), using a dwarf cannon, rotting food (ghasts) or a passive weapon effect (godswords, EE, Barrows sets). This ability just functions all the time, so you'll just have to deal with it.
   
7. One negative passive ability - reverse of above. Vulnerability to fire, spears, high hits, lots of hits, reflected damage, familiars, anything.

 

Weapons should be at t110 as well, special moves can be basically anything. The choice of prayers used (protects or soul split? curses or prayers), spells used (barrage or surge?), abilities used (single-target dps or multi-target? shield or no shield? KO focus or dps focus?) and any special moves will help flesh out a boss too.

 

Having the basic boss design, you can start trading out things. +10% armour for -10% damage? OK. +10% health and food healing in return for -10% accuracy? OK. An extra passive effect in return for not being able to run or Surge? OK. This kind of thing is to flesh out the boss to fit the story better, e.g. if the living rock patriarch was actually a boss, you'd give it a shield, lots of defence and health, regenerative abilities and summoning abilities, but you would make it vulnerable to large groups of people, powerful attacks (2h pickaxes, if they existed) and long-range magic attacks, slow and inaccurate, using only melee.

 

You can also add special vulnerabilities, for example I've always thought that you should be able to use grapples versus Nex (since she's so agile and everything).

 

In my opinion, you should let the natural state of combat do as much work in your boss design as possible. Coming up with special unique moves but leaving regular combat unused is just stupid.

[Maxingmck]

Great another boss drop i have to DIY

[Alg]

but people would hate that forever

...I love bosses like this. :sad:

[iBe]

i had a concept about a boss that was so large that it occupied three floors, and it took a team on each of the floors to coordinate in friendchat to kill it

 

but people would hate that forever

 

I don't have this many friends. :(

[PolarBearBlue]

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[hide]

I'm not a huge boss hunter, so forgive me if I sound rude or ignorant. But could elaborate on what mechanics would make a good boss? I thought KK was good and that RS players were just so resourceful that they figured out how to duo him. Obviously he was not, so I wanna know, what actual mechanics do you have in mind?

 

Use of environmental effects - e.g. since this is set in a cave, falling rocks that kind of thing that the player has to move out of the way of.

 

Use of defensive abilities - have the boss have something like reflect, to make players think more carefully about when they use abilities. (Nex and KK do this a bit, but having the damage reflected would make it more important)

 

Attacks that do more damage to people wearing gear of a certain class.

 

Locational damage - think the QBD super hot breath attack. But you could have a bit of a twist so that whilst this attack is active, if the player stands closer to the source of the damage, the player damage is also increased, meaning the player has to balance damage taken vs damage dealt.

 

A higher emphasis on DPS in aggro calculations (if one player can tank whilst the rest of the team just goes max DPS on the boss, it makes things unnecessarily easy.)

 

Minions/Adds that aren't completely trivial to deal with or completely ignorable. Perhaps have killing the minions be optional, but relate the boss's damage somehow to the number of minions (with a cap to) so that killing the minions will make the kill easier, but slower. E.g. if all minions are dead the boss deals 75% damage for the rest of the fight.

 

If the boss is magic based, have it be more susceptible to normal/ancient spells in different phases so your team requires players on both spellbooks.

 

Just off the top of my head :P

[/hide]

It's important to think of the things that players can use: Abilities, prayers, style switching, movement, designated roles, food, familiars and cannons. Both monsters and players should be able to use all of these - boss mechanics will decide whether the cannon is worth it.

 

Monster health, autoattacks and defence are just ways to keep a constant pressure on the players. For example in pre-EoC Nex you saw that players were using the most tanky gear possible (Pernix, divine, even SoL tanks on ice phase) because the pressure was very high. Post-EoC Nex you see that only the tank really bothers (and helps the team, with Provoke and luring for example), the pressure is lower - also because Nex herself is less tanky, so phases are shorter.

[/hide]

So what your are saying is that this boss should combine the abilities use of warband NPCs, the style switching and 1 hit ko of KK, the phases and prayer of Nex, and the healing abilities of current bosses, including in dungeoneering bosses? Basically the best traits of current bosses. Just to be clear. Because if that's what you are saying that sound very tough for players to fight. I'd be scared to try it.

Not all of them.

 

Basics of a boss designed at tier 11:

1. Level 110 defence and constitution. 4400 base health, roughly 1500 base armour.
   
2. Level 110 armour - just the main pieces, no capes or anything. That puts the total health up to 4400 + 6600, 11000 health - 12650 with shield. About 1500+3000 armour, 1500+3800 armour with a shield. By comparison, the highest armour a player can currently get (outside of DG etc.) is about 1213+2088.
   
3. Level 110 food - 2200 per bite. Assuming 28 inventory spaces, the total health is 11000-72600 excluding healing from abilities. Probably about 20 spaces on food, good for 55k total health.
   
4. Level 110 potions - Overloads are at 3+15% boost, rounded down, so that's 19 levels, but a better tier of potion should be 4+18%, a boost of 23 levels.
   
5. Prayer restore - If it's a divine or semi-divine being close to a god, like Mahjarrat or Nex, assume a going rate of 10 points per second or so. That's enough to keep turmoil and soul split going, but no more - sufficient Smite/Soul Split damage would eventually disable prayers. A couple of flasks of super (or extreme) prayer potion (565/dose for extreme) should serve as backup. Unintelligent creatures like kalphites shouldn't use prayers, just high armour and damage reduction.
   
6. One positive passive ability - it can be something like an aura (Vampirism, Penance, Aegis), a spirit shield effect (30% damage reduction with prayer drain), the blood necklace effect (on steroids as appropriate), poison, reach with melee (halberd, combine with knockback and stun for extrasuperfuntimes), Ancient Magic effects (blood, ice), casting Disrupt Shield and Vengeance (technically not passive), using a dwarf cannon, rotting food (ghasts) or a passive weapon effect (godswords, EE, Barrows sets). This ability just functions all the time, so you'll just have to deal with it.
   
7. One negative passive ability - reverse of above. Vulnerability to fire, spears, high hits, lots of hits, reflected damage, familiars, anything.
   

Weapons should be at t110 as well, special moves can be basically anything. The choice of prayers used (protects or soul split? curses or prayers), spells used (barrage or surge?), abilities used (single-target dps or multi-target? shield or no shield? KO focus or dps focus?) and any special moves will help flesh out a boss too.

 

Having the basic boss design, you can start trading out things. +10% armour for -10% damage? OK. +10% health and food healing in return for -10% accuracy? OK. An extra passive effect in return for not being able to run or Surge? OK. This kind of thing is to flesh out the boss to fit the story better, e.g. if the living rock patriarch was actually a boss, you'd give it a shield, lots of defence and health, regenerative abilities and summoning abilities, but you would make it vulnerable to large groups of people, powerful attacks (2h pickaxes, if they existed) and long-range magic attacks, slow and inaccurate, using only melee.

 

You can also add special vulnerabilities, for example I've always thought that you should be able to use grapples versus Nex (since she's so agile and everything).

 

In my opinion, you should let the natural state of combat do as much work in your boss design as possible. Coming up with special unique moves but leaving regular combat unused is just stupid.

[/hide]

 

Okay, I feel really bad that I had to read this twice to get it, but I think I understand. So this would be basic boss design and some of the thing Fallstar mentioned (use of shield entire fight, use of landscape/environment, abilities like that player etc) are what players are looking for than just high amount of hp and the occasional 1 trick, right?

[Quyneax]

Whether or not you need to use a shield follows from the boss design, you don't really design a boss around the idea that the hunter is using a certain weapon, just certain roles (like tank, dps, lure) which may or may not require a shield depending on the 'ambient pressure' of the autoattacks and environment.

 

But yeah, that's the basic design and anything 'special' and of course the environment are in addition to that. I'm just outlining what standards a boss should live up to (keep in mind they can be traded out to a certain point) to be worthy of their combat level. Far too many monsters have armour, damage output, food/potion/prayer usage and passive abilities far below the norm, compensating by having loads of 'unique specials' and extra health. Imo the extra specials are just boring, like the KK's orbs.

 

If I had to give the KK abilities, I'd imagine he's a solitary berserker suited to 1v1 combat versus similar creatures - he fights for the right to mate with the KQ once every season, and for that fight he has to be the badassest dude in town. So the KK gets a very dangerous front end (knockback, high damage, 2 square range, stat-draining poison and bleed, Dharok's set effect, poison spray AoE) and a reasonably safe but defensive back end (knockback from wings, trample, short-range multitarget poisonous magic attacks, damage reduction). The front is immune to regular melee, but not because of a special invulnerability, just because of the knockback and high damage - pikes dug into the ground will hold the KK. The front end is dangerous but also vulnerable to debilitating effects, while the back is more armoured and immune to stun and stat drain.

 

I think a setup like that would encourage a few pikes (there should be pikes with 2 square range, honestly) to hold the KK back while rangers shoot the eyes and mouth to stun it, and people around the back target the legs to make sure the KK doesn't bulldozer over the pikes. If the legs aren't cut, the pikes won't hold, the rangers will get eaten and the team wipes. If the rangers don't hit the eyes and mouth, the KK isn't slowed, the pikes won't hold, the team wipes. If the pikes don't keep outside the range of the jaws, they'll get eaten, the team wipes.

 

Just think of how glorious it is to have a line of crossbows guarded by a line of pikes, the crossbowmen targeting specific eyes, the pikes trying to knock back the jaws, while behind the KK you can see a bunch of mages trying to freeze the legs with ice barrage, and all the time the KK tries to rush ahead, doing more and more damage as the fight goes on. When you started, you could afford to take a hit or two, but not the hits that the near-dead KK will dish out.

 

(anyway it's 3 am so this might not work as intended, but okay)

 

In regular bossing, I don't think people want close kills every single time. They want a strategy that works 90% of the time and occasionally an 'accident' that gives some excitement and a good story. One-off quest bosses are different, they always have to be close, there doesn't have to be a reliable method (well, 60-70% is nice).

[iBe]

Whether or not you need to use a shield follows from the boss design, you don't really design a boss around the idea that the hunter is using a certain weapon, just certain roles (like tank, dps, lure) which may or may not require a shield depending on the 'ambient pressure' of the autoattacks and environment.

 

But yeah, that's the basic design and anything 'special' and of course the environment are in addition to that. I'm just outlining what standards a boss should live up to (keep in mind they can be traded out to a certain point) to be worthy of their combat level. Far too many monsters have armour, damage output, food/potion/prayer usage and passive abilities far below the norm, compensating by having loads of 'unique specials' and extra health. Imo the extra specials are just boring, like the KK's orbs.

 

If I had to give the KK abilities, I'd imagine he's a solitary berserker suited to 1v1 combat versus similar creatures - he fights for the right to mate with the KQ once every season, and for that fight he has to be the badassest dude in town. So the KK gets a very dangerous front end (knockback, high damage, 2 square range, stat-draining poison and bleed, Dharok's set effect, poison spray AoE) and a reasonably safe but defensive back end (knockback from wings, trample, short-range multitarget poisonous magic attacks, damage reduction). The front is immune to regular melee, but not because of a special invulnerability, just because of the knockback and high damage - pikes dug into the ground will hold the KK. The front end is dangerous but also vulnerable to debilitating effects, while the back is more armoured and immune to stun and stat drain.

 

I think a setup like that would encourage a few pikes (there should be pikes with 2 square range, honestly) to hold the KK back while rangers shoot the eyes and mouth to stun it, and people around the back target the legs to make sure the KK doesn't bulldozer over the pikes. If the legs aren't cut, the pikes won't hold, the rangers will get eaten and the team wipes. If the rangers don't hit the eyes and mouth, the KK isn't slowed, the pikes won't hold, the team wipes. If the pikes don't keep outside the range of the jaws, they'll get eaten, the team wipes.

 

Just think of how glorious it is to have a line of crossbows guarded by a line of pikes, the crossbowmen targeting specific eyes, the pikes trying to knock back the jaws, while behind the KK you can see a bunch of mages trying to freeze the legs with ice barrage.

 

In regular bossing, I don't think people want close kills every single time. They want a strategy that works 90% of the time and occasionally an 'accident' that gives some excitement and a good story. One-off quest bosses are different, they always have to be close, there doesn't have to be a reliable method (well, 60-70% is nice).

That KK description was so deep.

In the first line, are you saying that designers don't take optimal strategies into consideration? I think not, especially considering the latest boss and his 1 hit KO move that forces us into slaying it with others.

[crazycdcm]

Just think of how glorious it is to have a line of crossbows guarded by a line of pikes, the crossbowmen targeting specific eyes, the pikes trying to knock back the jaws, while behind the KK you can see a bunch of mages trying to freeze the legs with ice barrage, and all the time the KK tries to rush ahead, doing more and more damage as the fight goes on. When you started, you could afford to take a hit or two, but not the hits that the near-dead KK will dish out.

It's a great vision, but I think it's beyond RS.

[PolarBearBlue]

Just think of how glorious it is to have a line of crossbows guarded by a line of pikes, the crossbowmen targeting specific eyes, the pikes trying to knock back the jaws, while behind the KK you can see a bunch of mages trying to freeze the legs with ice barrage, and all the time the KK tries to rush ahead, doing more and more damage as the fight goes on. When you started, you could afford to take a hit or two, but not the hits that the near-dead KK will dish out.

It's a great vision, but I think it's beyond RS.

 

Maybe right now, but I don't think so. if I understood everything that was written, then Jagex is certainly trying to get there. They just aren't making enough use of what they put into a boss.

[WeatherMatt]

Quyneax for RS Content Designer '14!

[Ezkaton]

Quyneax for RS Content Designer '14!

 

Maybe for bosses... She and Aiel once outlined what a skill designed by them would be like... Think Agility xp/hr with Hunter apm and an essential suit that gives you the xp/hr.

That's the first thing she'll create :P

 

But otherwise that design sounds amazing. Proper fight really.

[crazycdcm]

Quyneax for RS Content Designer '14!

 

Maybe for bosses... She and Aiel once outlined what a skill designed by them would be like... Think Agility xp/hr with Hunter apm and an essential suit that gives you the xp/hr.

That's the first thing she'll create :P

 

But otherwise that design sounds amazing. Proper fight really.

Did the skill name being with a D? :twisted:

[Mr_Muto]

Looks promising. I'm also looking forward to the July BTS as well, and hopefully with any luck, Divination.

[Estoc]

Just think of how glorious it is to have a line of crossbows guarded by a line of pikes, the crossbowmen targeting specific eyes, the pikes trying to knock back the jaws, while behind the KK you can see a bunch of mages trying to freeze the legs with ice barrage, and all the time the KK tries to rush ahead, doing more and more damage as the fight goes on. When you started, you could afford to take a hit or two, but not the hits that the near-dead KK will dish out.

It's a great vision, but I think it's beyond RS.

 

Maybe right now, but I don't think so. if I understood everything that was written, then Jagex is certainly trying to get there. They just aren't making enough use of what they put into a boss.

 

Jagex will never get there as long as they let themselves be held back by decade old limitations of the game and the whiny playerbase.

[iBe]

Just think of how glorious it is to have a line of crossbows guarded by a line of pikes, the crossbowmen targeting specific eyes, the pikes trying to knock back the jaws, while behind the KK you can see a bunch of mages trying to freeze the legs with ice barrage, and all the time the KK tries to rush ahead, doing more and more damage as the fight goes on. When you started, you could afford to take a hit or two, but not the hits that the near-dead KK will dish out.

It's a great vision, but I think it's beyond RS.

this. just think of the response they got after the release of dungeoneering where they tried to force teamwork upon us. People refusing to train because they could not solo it, and eventually they increased solo xp rates.

[Binary Mage]

Someone pointed the following out on /r/runescape--apparently the poster isn't the original image creator but I'll still say thanks to Jikkicraft.

 

[spoiler=Vorago Image - Large]

 

 

 

Apparently he is closer thank we think?..

[Artemis1330]

I usually chalk stuff like that up to Pareidolia or Apophenia, like when people see Mary Magdalene on a pancake (or was it French toast?) or the face on mars

[Binary Mage]

I think this is a bit different, especially since there is both the plant growth on the same location as the concept art and the shine from Vorago's eye showing at the crack between the Vorago-head-shaped cropping and the area around it. It's a bit more believable than simple pareidolia.

[Urza285]

Grab your pick axes fella's and lets help free our new 'friend'.

[JeRambo]

Maybe he'll come breaking out of the stone for the fight? Or we need a group of people mining away at him to fight him? :P.

[Wkw]

recruiting 1337 vor team

min stats

80+ min with d pick in tb

99 combats

ovl

turm

1300m+ bank

[PolarBearBlue]

recruiting 1337 vor team

min stats

80+ min with d pick in tb

99 combats

ovl

turm

1300m+ bank

 

I have turm, ovl, and 90+ mining with d pick in tb. How about we make an exception for me on the combat stats and bank pl0x. :twss:

[Wkw]

recruiting 1337 vor team

min stats

80+ min with d pick in tb

99 combats

ovl

turm

1300m+ bank

 

I have turm, ovl, and 90+ mining with d pick in tb. How about we make an exception for me on the combat stats and bank pl0x. :twss:

only if you have skype and are able to tank 100% of the time in black (g) while also dealing 1/3 of total dps because when we vor we do it on the john

[Urza285]

Get your dragon pickaxes before they skyrocket.

 

Inb4 rs market fraud.