25-September-2013 - Runescape Bonds

[Mischlings]

This actually brought me back into the game. If there was the possibility of getting the entire game (membership) free but pay for other things, I said to myself that I'd come back to the game. Guess what? It's here now, so I'm back.

 

Just bought a bond for 6.9m to get my membership back. With flipping, I get that money in about an hour, so definitely worth it. I'm actually really interested in seeing how all of this plays out.

[Blyaunte]

 

 

 

For the sake of asking, weren't "bonds" used in other gaming systems, specifically WoW and MapleStory, and didn't they pretty much FUBAR the economies of both games?

 

I am not sure of my facts on this, but this is my recollection on this issue ... :unsure:

Maplestory directly sold gold at prices that were never matched by their goldselling counterparts and never could stop the goldsellers nor punish the buyers effectively. My friends bought gold from sellers rather than MS frequently. It was more viable than grinding for hours in a place specifically good for moneymaking at the sacrifice of EXP shortly before we all quit.

 

As for WoW, I don't know if they've ever implemented a bond-like system. Maybe someone else can clarify.

 

But here's the issue - won't R/S Bonds now allow someone to buy R/S gear or skills, using IRL money, and do so "legitimately"?

 

If so, what will this do the game's economy? Will it drive prices up? Down? Existentially sideways? :unsure:

 

It shouldn't impact too much badly other than perhaps denting the top tier items as it can remove some demand for them alongside draining some gold from the economy.

 

When it comes to most skills they are still limited by the gathering, a factor that cannot be altered by money in-game or not. It may afford some users to reach buyable 99s a bit faster but as the items they need to buy are still restricted by said gathering it shouldn't hit prices too much. If anything it would increase demand vs supply and make prices better on the low end stuff.

 

 

After posting my earlier comments, my friends and I were chatting about this in my FC, last night. We discussed it at length and we’re still piecing together what the net effect of it may be. One of the guys was saying that he thinks this is going to be a reasonable coin sink and that the net effect is that we may start seeing base materials, i.e. skilling products, start having greater value once again.

To be honest, I am not sure what to think. On the one hand, I am somewhat doubtful that the stats Jagex is quoting are honest – or at least realistic. That said, I have not done the math to be sure if they’re wrong or not, let’s just call it a “vibe” I get.

My concern is that I don’t know whether this will cause inflation or deflation – or if it will have any actual effect at all.

My experience tells me that any time a governing body floods its economy with bonds, as a means of balancing the economy, it generally turns out bad, in that it floods the market with money and causes a decrease in the value of what a [base cash amount] buys, while it increases the costs of everything else.

I understand that it doesn’t seem a bad thing when there’s a lot of money around. It's one of those wonderful economic markers when people have money and are spending it -- but that only lasts as long as the bubble does, and then it goes bad real fast …

[kamil1210]

My concern is that I don’t know whether this will cause inflation or deflation – or if it will have any actual effect at all.

Bonds in Runescape doesn't create money, you can only remove money from runescape by changing bonds from untradeable to tradeable

 

My experience tells me that any time a governing body floods its economy with bonds, as a means of balancing the economy, it generally turns out bad, in that it floods the market with money and causes a decrease in the value of what a [base cash amount] buys, while it increases the costs of everything else.

Again, bonds in real life and in runescape are different. You can't compare them.

One of the guys was saying that he thinks this is going to be a reasonable coin sink and that the net effect is that we may start seeing base materials, i.e. skilling products, start having greater value once again.

Money sink from bonds is small (10% of GE value) and many ppl won't use this option.

[AirlessWig]

Bought one for 6.5M and got me 14 days of membership.

I can easily gain more on the GE during that period of time so I can only hope prices stay this low and I'll never have to pay for membership again :-)

[jasignhagj]

 

It was only time until Jagex added pure uncut RWT into the game. Final nail in the coffin for me, no way I'll be renewing my membership now.

So because, as a company, Jagex is trying to combat something that has a bad influence on their game (while, of course, making an extra bit of money from it), you want to cry over it?

Honestly, that is ass-backwards.

Oh come on, that's a blatant misrepresentation on what was actually said. Stick to the points made.

 

I'm not crying over it, but I'm not going to financially support a company that has completely abandoned its values. It's sad to see how many people see no problem with this.

[Blyaunte]

 

My concern is that I don’t know whether this will cause inflation or deflation – or if it will have any actual effect at all.

Bonds in Runescape doesn't create money, you can only remove money from runescape by changing bonds from untradeable to tradeable

 

My experience tells me that any time a governing body floods its economy with bonds, as a means of balancing the economy, it generally turns out bad, in that it floods the market with money and causes a decrease in the value of what a [base cash amount] buys, while it increases the costs of everything else.

Again, bonds in real life and in runescape are different. You can't compare them.

One of the guys was saying that he thinks this is going to be a reasonable coin sink and that the net effect is that we may start seeing base materials, i.e. skilling products, start having greater value once again.

Money sink from bonds is small (10% of GE value) and many ppl won't use this option.

 

 

Fair enough - but let's look at it this way. When everyone has loads and loads of money, and the cost of everything gets so grossly inflated, and the economy is so FUBAR, that Jagex has to basically reboot the game, don't say that I didn't mention that it was a possibility ...

 

:lol:

 

 

 

“Thank you. Since we decided a few weeks ago to adopt the leaf as legal tender, we have, of course, all become immensely rich. [...]

"But we have also," continued the management consultant, "run into a small inflation problem on account of the high level of leaf availability, which means that, I gather, the current going rate has something like three deciduous forests buying one ship's peanut." [...]

"So in order to oblviate this problem," he continued, "and effectively revalue the leaf, we are about to embark on a massive defoliation campaign, and...er, burn down all the forests. I think you'll all agree that's a sensible move under the circumstances.”

― Douglas Adams, The Ultimate Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy

[SwreeTak]

 

 

I wonder what the reaction to bonds would of been if they didn't make the whole false anti gold farming speach.

 

It isn't completely false. Certainly they make too big of a number of it, but I do believe that it will actually work a bit as intended as well. Even if the gp/irl cash rate is still bad compared to that of many goldfarming sites it is a safe alternative. Many players will for sure use this new alternative. Even if I can agree with you partly. They make too much of a 'show' of this.

 

The way I see it is, anyone who knew the RWT market before will understand that theres legit sellers everywhere you turn. People who have handled over 2 million in total and so on. The only cut gold farmers take is in customers that are unlikely to risk such a trade. Anyone who has previously done or are not scared to go for the GoldFarm option will still buy their gold elsewhere. Anyone who is 100% scared will buy a bond. The effects are very minimal. And also GoldFamers have MUCH more botting power now.

 

They can have a farm of F2P bots just to top up member bots membership if they wanted. Allowing even more inflation and bots. Gold farmers become stronger.

 

Bonds are cheap though. FTP accounts are free. All they need is more bots? Bots are free. One account can pay for 2-3 bots a day. 10 accounts 20-30. 50 accounts 100-150 member bots.

 

These 100-150 member bots can easily make MUCH more money ontop of the FTP ones. Without the risk of using their irl money to fund the bots in the first place. They now have a free opening which will grow after each month.

 

Bonds cannot match due to the fact players decide the price. Not jagex. RWT can undercut at anytime and currently has not needed to change their price.

 

It would take a bond 15m to match RWTs prices. Bonds are around 7-8 right now.

 

Its not event touched the market for these GoldFarmers.

 

 

I believe that you are all right in the above. You just posted it in more detail than I did in my original post. I still do believe in that this will have an effect though. Even if it is just a small one. Certainly I believe there are trusted goldfarming sites, but, and that one is one big but right there, who created and runs the game? Do you think someone who just like once every third year or something like that would risk his or her account by using a goldfarming site? When there's now a clear alternative? I believe the far most of RS players who buy rsgp for rl cash does it in small amounts. There's been posts about this previously in this thread.

I will admit that I may just be hoping for too much. But I actually believe this may work. Even if bonds are still rather 'cheap'. It's about more than just the price when it comes to this kind of things. Goldfarming sites may be as safe and trustworthy and so on. Jagex still made and run the game.

[kamil1210]

Fair enough - but let's look at it this way. When everyone has loads and loads of money, and the cost of everything gets so grossly inflated, and the economy is so FUBAR, that Jagex has to basically reboot the game, don't say that I didn't mention that it was a possibility ...

If ever jagex will have to do do big changes in runescape economy it is unlikely that it will be due to bonds. You are wrong beacuse you think bonds in runescape and in real wrold are the same. They are completely different. Also I won't debete if bonds are bad or good in real life.

[God Of Lego]

Best option for the economy was to either remove gravestones or at least cut it down to 5 minutes max!

[Wkw]

Best option for the economy was to either remove gravestones or at least cut it down to 5 minutes max!

I agree. High end items NEVER leave the game with them.

At least make them 5 minutes max, and finally allow degradables to drop to other poeple.

 

Oh, you're at nex and your computer gets hit by lightning?

lol bye bye drygores, ascensions, torva, and pernix

[Mylez]

This is laughable. I have quit RS but I saw this and thought it was funny. No person that is selling gold now for cash is going to sell for bonds long term. If I were selling 2B I could A sell to a gold reseller for .20-.22/M (price when I quit rs) so $400 or I could B sell for 200 bonds (assuming 10m each). What he hell do I need 200 bonds for? Lifetime membership? Spins? Runecoins? No thank you. I'll take the $400 and be on my way.

 

Sure people with average wealth who have never rwt'd (at least sold) will use this bc hey "I can get free membs and spins!" But no one that sold dicing/staking/merching/botting profits over the past few years will sell for bonds. Other than maybe selling some for spins to max. Long term this is a wasted update.

 

Peace,

Vann

 

PS: Before anyone flames me for being a rwt'er just know that I don't care. I've quit the game just got this email from Jagex and thought it was funny so I figured I'd read this topic while bored at work. Also, some of the people on this forum that are "adamant" against rwt are some of the biggest hypocrites I know.

 

If we're going by Jagex' statistics, it's safe to assume a large proportion of the Tip.It community RWT :p

[Kaida23]

If they are, they'd best keep it to themselves. :P

[Wkw]

But now you can RWT with those bonds...

 

"i traded real money for a bond and traded a bond for MONEY HAHAHA MONEY"

[Hoet]

Bonds are so cheap right now it's unreal. They will almost definitely rise in price in the long run. Right now the supply of bonds is at an all-time high, since so many people are buying on release. The amount of bonds entering the market will soon diminish greatly. I foresee bonds being at least 10M each long-term.

 

At rates right now - where 1 Bond costs ~7M, and at a market price of $0.4/M, people can buy members for about $6 per month.

 

But now you can RWT with those bonds...

 

"i traded real money for a bond and traded a bond for MONEY HAHAHA MONEY"

You can RWT with any tradeable item, it's irrelevant what you buy (GP, Bond, Party Hat) since all items can be exchanged in-game.

[Wkw]

Bonds are so cheap right now it's unreal. They will almost definitely rise in price in the long run. Right now the supply of bonds is at an all-time high, since so many people are buying on release. The amount of bonds entering the market will soon diminish greatly. I foresee bonds being at least 10M each long-term.

 

At rates right now - where 1 Bond costs ~7M, and at a market price of $0.4/M, people can buy members for about $6 per month.

 

But now you can RWT with those bonds...

 

"i traded real money for a bond and traded a bond for MONEY HAHAHA MONEY"

You can RWT with any tradeable item, it's irrelevant what you buy (GP, Bond, Party Hat) since all items can be exchanged in-game.

 

What I said was a tad sarcastic.

 

And... aren't you one of the biggest gold selling sites out there?

[Mischlings]

Okay, I'm realizing now that my last post was a little unclear about what I meant, so I'm going to attempt to lay out the way that I see this and understand what they're doing.

 

This isn't Jagex just adding RWT elements to the game. Instead, they've pretty much converted the game to being free to play with the possibility for microtransactions, which is basically the dominant method of game design and monetization now. The key change is that they added the ability to buy membership with currency in the game, and an item that can be sold for in-game money with real currency. Honestly, a free-to-play with microtransactions model is kind of inevitable for games at this point, though they're currently putting it in here alongside the current subscription model instead of supplanting it entirely, which is a weird in-between that a lot of games developed for the subscription model have to deal with.

 

It's now possible to access the entire game without having to pay real money for it. Sure, the price is probably going to be a little steep (the bonds would have to sell for 15m in order to really compete with gold sellers), but it's still possible, which is a huge change to how some of the game works - I wonder how my 12-year old self would've reacted to this back in 2004, when I wanted membership so badly but had no way of getting access to it. For people who could possibly pay for it, the ability to buy more than just the 7-day trial without having to use real money could also be motivation for them to break down and pay for membership - it's a lot of money if you're not very well-versed in ways to make money, so it'd encourage people to actually pay for membership rather than rely on buying it with gold. However, as you get better at making money, paying something like that might be more worth your time, at which point you pay for it with bonds, which means that each month is paid for with $10 rather than $8, which could be a significant boost in revenue if enough people go in that direction.

 

The other side is buying the bonds to buy money. Whenever I'm working on training up skills that require money, I always find myself in the situation where I'm thinking "It'd be great to cut out making the money", but I've been too paranoid about losing my account to buy gold before. With this, assuming that the price of them goes up eventually (this is actually the opposite of how most items in the game normally work, since the scarce supply means they go up for a long time before settling on some lower price, but this is different because the supply has no bound at the moment and won't stop until people realize they're not getting a good deal), I might actually do that from time to time. What happens when I do? Someone buys it and gets membership (I presume), I get gold, and Jagex gets money. Everyone gets something positive out of the equation, and no items or money are added to the game like they would if there was a straight up store for gold.

 

Honestly, from the moment I saw this, it struck me as a really clever way to sell gold for real money while avoiding some of the other pitfalls that could've gone along with it. Giving the value of it to the players is also interesting, since the only reason someone would buy the bonds for real money is to get gold from them, so the market will eventually decide what they're worth. I'm back in the game now, and I'm really interested in seeing how this'll work out.

[Fallstar]

I doubt they will rise much more than the current price. One group will buy membership using the premier membership deals for example that give discounted mems in a 12 month block. Another group perhaps values the RSGP required for bonds over the real money required for membership. Those of us still on legacy membership rates pay only £3.40/month - when 1 month's members costs about 50% more than that in equivalent gp when purchased using bonds (remember it's 2 bonds for 1 month). On top of that, many players have months of membership time they have yet to use from various promotions, such as the membership card promotions from last year, which they can use should their subscription stop.

 

The conversion rates of bonds to runecoins and spins are also very poor if you compare the gp/$ and $/spins-runecoins conversion rates. The lower bound for the price of bonds is effectively determined by the price of membership. But then, there's only a limited demand for membership purchasable using rsgp, as I explained above. If the supply of bonds exceeds the number of players who want to buy membership, then there is no real lower limit on their price.

[Hoet]

If the supply of bonds exceeds the number of players who want to buy membership, then there is no real lower limit on their price.

The thing is, at 7M a pop, people are paying $0.714/M for gold. As time progresses, and the newness factor wears off from being able to buy gold directly from Jagex, people will start demanding more in return. The "money sink" created with the Bond market is essentially 0. No one is going to be paying 10% to re-trade them. 95% of people who buy a Bond in-game will be redeeming it themselves. Bonds last one trade, and they're eliminated. Gold continues circulating.

 

People will not be buying as many Bonds in 2 weeks, 2 months, or 2 years as they are today. We are seeing the highest amounts of Bonds entering market right now. Supply will decrease, while demand should stay flat.

[chenw]

 

 

It was only time until Jagex added pure uncut RWT into the game. Final nail in the coffin for me, no way I'll be renewing my membership now.

So because, as a company, Jagex is trying to combat something that has a bad influence on their game (while, of course, making an extra bit of money from it), you want to cry over it?

Honestly, that is ass-backwards.

Oh come on, that's a blatant misrepresentation on what was actually said. Stick to the points made.

 

I'm not crying over it, but I'm not going to financially support a company that has completely abandoned its values. It's sad to see how many people see no problem with this.

 

 

A value which is of basically no value in today's world.

 

If you said this 5 years ago, I would have agreed, but times change, and so must people, so must company, or else they'd just end up an empty husk of theirs.

 

It may not be a desirable outcome, but if it means jagex keeping the game around longer, so be it.

[Ammako]

If Jagex knew about 40-50% of RuneScape players RWTing, why are 40-50% of players still here?

Because then they'd be banning nearly half of their playerbase, which results in cutting nearly half of their profits away.

[abellus]

Geez, sometimes I wake up and see these updates and wish Runescape had just died 5 years ago. It's like they're trying to repair a dilapidated house with masking tape. You can only use so much tape until it all collapses.

 

This update will work for the first few months while RWTers adjust, but eventually you'll be back to a situation where RWT prices are cheaper than bond prices. Sure, it's a bit more risky to buy from RWTers, but the prices will balance out in such a way that it will be worth the risk.

 

Remember: Jagex has to pay their workers first-world salaries. RWTers can get away with paying their workers third-world salaries. RWTers will always be in a position to win a price war against Jagex, no exceptions.

 

 

[Ammako]

But what if it's true?

If RuneScape really has died, what will we do?

 

And what will we do?

'bout all the fans who have the 'Scape tattoo?

[abellus]

Oh, and I guess we can't ignore the fact that jagex is now fully endorsing the idea that the wealthier you are in real-life, the wealthier you shall be ingame. And don't give me that crap "well... technically we're not selling GP directly..."

[Tres]

I like this update

 

Good sides are that everyone can work their way in game to obtain bonds to pay their membership and solomon items...this will bring alot new members to play that didnt bother to pay rl cash before. Gold is spreading from rich players to poor players. Supplies goes up because more players are able to train expensive skills.

 

Bad sides might be that supplies goes up which encourages bots to do them again for better cash and rl wealthy ppl can become rich in rs without any work. Dunno how rwters will live with bonds maybe they start selling bonds cheaper than jagex, instead of gold.

 

for jagex dunno if this is good or bad update but in my case they will no longer get my money to pay members as i can afford buying it with rs gold as long as i live and all current and future solomon items too.

 

I think trade limit worked better after all as solution of rwting. It could been just adjusted little bit more advantage to high level players and between longtime friends.

[Stev]

Anyone else find it strange that the big YouTubers who were SO against RWT, SoF, and micro-transactions are praising this update? It's like they did a complete 180...