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25-September-2013 - Runescape Bonds


Drazhor

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It is not a 'facebook game with swords'

Go out and look at the MMORPG market literally every game of note has something akin to sof, solomans or bonds in place.

 

Trying to deride microtransactions as making something a 'facebook' game is utterly stupid, it is a fact of every single facet of the gaming market.

Pc games, console games, mobile games, web games they are ALL using microtransactions be it in smaller in-game buys or outright add-ons/DLC.

 

You just sound like an annoyed kid ranting and throwing out random terminology and insults to try and prove your point at anyone who disagrees in the slightest without actually considering the full meaning of those words or having a real concept of the gaming market as a whole.

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What harm does giving bill gates junior the ability to buy gold have on you? The kind of person who is going to have and be willing to spend that kind of IRL cash is highly unlikely to have the patience to play the game to any of its endgame content.

 

And why does anyone care if he can buy an advantage? Life isn't fair, and the world doesn't owe any of us anything, especially not in a virtual game. How does someone that is rich in real life buying torva affect your personal gameplay? You used to be able to say that he can crash you at bosses but with instanced bosses becoming the norm that argument holds approximately no water.

 

 

All value of what we have accomplished in this game is subjective and if you find yourself unable to control your emotions to the point that you feel cheated and upset that someone has it easier than you then go find a different game to play and stop filling the air with your complaints.

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But is it really 'corruption'?

 

Or is someone viewing thing as a business exactly what a game like Runescape needs to survive?

It's all very well making an amazing game but if the business is not viable it will flicker out and die as quickly as it was made.

 

I'd much rather have an amazing game with longevity that has a few RWT-esque features I'm not a huge fan of than one that is a forgetten relic because it wasn't financially viable.

It depends where the corruption is.

 

If Mod MMG was getting a bigger paycheck each time he were to increase income dramaticaly then he may get the idea "Never mind the game, I want my bonus'"

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If the singular reason you play is for competition against the "best" in this game, then you most likely were already outclassed, because most of the top players are rich enough to be *able* to spend massive amounts of time playing. (ie: the live with families who will support them even though they are spending the vast majority of their time in an online game)

 

In addition, gp in rs is helpful but not the only skill.

 

I play and compete against friends, and yea now a few of them could buy some more gp, but not really enough to make the competition unfun.

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It's less fun* when you can be beaten in a race by someone who bought an advantage, such as bonds. That is because a game is usually understood to be a small, self-contained unit, with the only input being the player's intelligence and skill. The game has to be smaller than real life, and the strategy and tactics more or less overseeable and understandable. By adding advantages to spending real-world cash, you expand the game to include real life, where you make that cash. By expanding to the whole world, the game ceases to be different from the real world, which makes it hard to 'escape' into the game world and enjoy that universe as an independent universe. Immersiveness is something that a category of players values highly, and it's being broken down.

 

What doesn't help is that Jagex is giving a strong impression of ever increasing the amount of buyable-with-real-cash advantages in the game. That quite quickly leads to the conclusion that there will be more ways to spend money on this game in the near future. Naturally, people start considering what line will be crossed next - straight-up buyable xp? Quests, as someone mentioned? More PoH rooms?

 

Jagex could set a line for themselves and show the players that they stick to it, trying to win back some trust. Examples are: having no more than X SoF promotions (Y new Solomon's/Loyalty items released) per year, or just saying 'we won't release any other way to buy in-game advantages with real-world cash for the next five years'.

 

Similar to the problems with EoC, the lack of information and a lack of direction is missing. Many updates seem to be stand-alone and do not tie in well with previous content, with no apparent reason for their independence, even though there are many ways to combine old and new - look at Runespan, which could just as easily produce real runes and use real essence. Jagex needs to define some clear goals for the game, not just story-wise - that's pretty much sorted, I think - but mechanics-wise and financially. If they present these goals, then the players can understand the developers and business managers, and help to devise solutions where appropriate. In a community this big, there have to be a few good businesspeople running around, wouldn't you think?

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Was anyone else waiting for the, "It's not an in-game advantage - it's a convenience"?

 

This is actually a really easy topic to address.

 

Is RuneScape still a game you find fun?

 

If yes, keep playing.

 

If no, stop playing.

 

It really is that simple.

Now factor in thousands of hours of people's invested time - suddenly it's not that simple.
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This is actually a really easy topic to address.

 

Is RuneScape still a game you find fun?

 

If yes, keep playing.

 

If no, stop playing.

 

It really is that simple.

What about the fact that RS is a massive game and any attempt to simplify it to that level is obviously irrelevant. You can enjoy certain parts of the game whilst disliking others - the problems arise when Jagex update the game and damage a part of it that you enjoyed. Eventually they cut down the things you enjoy about the game so much that even if you still like some bits and so can continue playing, when you consider how much more you used to enjoy the game it's really disheartening.

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Updates need to be judged-- the term 'unethical' is perfectly fine to describe certain updates.
I don't understand your first argument. Essentially, you are arguing that since everyone else is doing it, Jagex is justified in doing it too? That's not a valid argument at all.

 

Given that ethical standards are often set on an industry level (either explicitly or implicitly as this case may be)...

 

[bleep] OFF HOW ARE U SO [bleep]ING LUCKY U PIECE OF [bleep]ING SHIT [bleep] [bleep] [wagon] MUNCHER

 

 

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runescape's the kind of game where having standards for gameplay just means that at some point you're just going to get hurt

 

the only satisfaction you're ever really going to have is from finding people you can stand to be around for longer than five minutes, or pretending that everybody besides you doesn't exist, and you're just playing a game that hates you, like dark souls, but without any wit behind it

 

i've wanted to post before about people who seemed like they would rather be playing a single player game, but like i said, i can't make anybody do anything more than anybody else here, so feel free to keep punching that wall

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Now factor in thousands of hours of people's invested time - suddenly it's not that simple.

 

 

I don't know, from the perspective of my thousands of hours and changing opinions about the way online games should work, I think it is that simple.

 

Similar to the problems with EoC, the lack of information and a lack of direction is missing. Many updates seem to be stand-alone and do not tie in well with previous content, with no apparent reason for their independence, even though there are many ways to combine old and new - look at Runespan, which could just as easily produce real runes and use real essence. Jagex needs to define some clear goals for the game, not just story-wise - that's pretty much sorted, I think - but mechanics-wise and financially. If they present these goals, then the players can understand the developers and business managers, and help to devise solutions where appropriate. In a community this big, there have to be a few good businesspeople running around, wouldn't you think?

 

I think there's a direction there that's not too difficult to see. Supplement their revenue by tapping into the huge market for Real World Trading without causing a deluge of more money being added to the game by selling it directly.

 

runescape's the kind of game where having standards for gameplay just means that at some point you're just going to get hurt

 

the only satisfaction you're ever really going to have is from finding people you can stand to be around for longer than five minutes, or pretending that everybody besides you doesn't exist, and you're just playing a game that hates you, like dark souls, but without any wit behind it

 

i've wanted to post before about people who seemed like they would rather be playing a single player game, but like i said, i can't make anybody do anything more than anybody else here, so feel free to keep punching that wall

 

What's wrong with playing it like a single player game? I've done it since I started playing the game in 2003-ish with only occasional excursions into clan-like activities like monster hunting, and I've enjoyed it all along.

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Now factor in thousands of hours of people's invested time - suddenly it's not that simple.

 

I don't know, from the perspective of my thousands of hours and changing opinions about the way online games should work, I think it is that simple.

 

Similar to the problems with EoC, the lack of information and a lack of direction is missing. Many updates seem to be stand-alone and do not tie in well with previous content, with no apparent reason for their independence, even though there are many ways to combine old and new - look at Runespan, which could just as easily produce real runes and use real essence. Jagex needs to define some clear goals for the game, not just story-wise - that's pretty much sorted, I think - but mechanics-wise and financially. If they present these goals, then the players can understand the developers and business managers, and help to devise solutions where appropriate. In a community this big, there have to be a few good businesspeople running around, wouldn't you think?

 

I think there's a direction there that's not too difficult to see. Supplement their revenue by tapping into the huge market for Real World Trading without causing a deluge of more money being added to the game by selling it directly.

 

runescape's the kind of game where having standards for gameplay just means that at some point you're just going to get hurt

 

the only satisfaction you're ever really going to have is from finding people you can stand to be around for longer than five minutes, or pretending that everybody besides you doesn't exist, and you're just playing a game that hates you, like dark souls, but without any wit behind it

 

i've wanted to post before about people who seemed like they would rather be playing a single player game, but like i said, i can't make anybody do anything more than anybody else here, so feel free to keep punching that wall

 

What's wrong with playing it like a single player game? I've done it since I started playing the game in 2003-ish with only occasional excursions into clan-like activities like monster hunting, and I've enjoyed it all along.

I've been in the same mind set of the solo play. Have been a solo player since 2002 and only occasionally partake in group stuff. Mostly dungeoneering and that's it. Much prefer solo

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But is it really 'corruption'?

 

Or is someone viewing thing as a business exactly what a game like Runescape needs to survive?

It's all very well making an amazing game but if the business is not viable it will flicker out and die as quickly as it was made.

 

I'd much rather have an amazing game with longevity that has a few RWT-esque features I'm not a huge fan of than one that is a forgetten relic because it wasn't financially viable.

It depends where the corruption is.

 

If Mod MMG was getting a bigger paycheck each time he were to increase income dramaticaly then he may get the idea "Never mind the game, I want my bonus'"

 

 

On the other hand, if the additional profits were rolled back into the game, then we'd have to consider the good it does for the game via more resources and a bigger budget. One could argue that funding such investments provides significant benefits to RuneScape's long-term health, easily outweighing the moral cost of allowing some players to trade money for time--which they could already do.

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I've been in the same mind set of the solo play. Have been a solo player since 2002 and only occasionally partake in group stuff. Mostly dungeoneering and that's it. Much prefer solo

 

 

I even do Dungeoneering solo - it's reflected in my level, but it's just my personal preference when it comes to how I play.

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didn't say anything was wrong with single playering

 

just have to watch out for when jagex wiggles its fingers into the wiring, and not be too sore about other parties attempting to exert control in the game cause that's the kind of game it is

 

as for where the money goes, i actually can see that they're investing a bunch into production values, however they still seem to prioritize the wrong types of things, instead of alloting the proper amount of time to polish certain things postrelease instead of using a bunch of generic time blocks to govern everything and cutting it off as soon as it runs out since they'd rather declare a lost cause than risk fixing something since they seem to overly fear wasting time as opposed to getting something properly done

 

if they say it all goes back into the cash shop, they clearly haven't seen a lot of the recent work, i mean yeesh those outfits, just hideous

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Let's take bonds out of this entirely. Player A has a real life friend Player B. Player A gives his real life friend Player B's new character 100 million gp. Is that breaking the rules or is it fair?

 

Player B is in Player A's clan. Player A gives Player B 100 million gp. Is that breaking the rules or is it fair?

 

Look, fair trade was removed like it or not. Unbalanced trades are now allowed in the game. If you wanted to, you could give 1 billion gp in coins or items to anyone for any reason. The game's been that way for nigh on two years I believe.

 

Does it really matter that Player A gave 100 million to a player because they're his real life friend or clanmate compared to giving 100 million to an unknown player in exchange for 20 bonds? The results are the same in that noob players now have a lot of cash that came from another player and not from the game.

 

Except for the time in fair trade, you always had the ability to give money to friends, families or strangers. Now you just have the same ability, except now it can be in exchange for an item that offers runecoins, spins or membership days. Nothing is the game has changed except perhaps much more gp being put into circulation.

You forgot the pay to win aspect.

 

Player A buys 10 bonds for 30 pound.

Player A sells all bonds and makes 60m in 2 minutes.

 

That is my only problem with bonds.

 

And when you take bonds out of the equation, it's still Player B giving Player A 60 million for no work in game. Player B still had to gather the GP from somewhere in game so it didn't just immediately get injected. If you had no problem with this situation when its friends, then there a small logical step to the bond situation between strangers.

 

On the bright side this will stimulate the economy. Player A who buy bonds with real cash then trade those bonds to Player B for GP will likely use that GP to purchase items for playing the game. Player B, just being a rich ingame player will likely not be spending that GP (hoarding it) so he sees no problem trading the GP for more membership days or runecoins.

 

 

@Nukemarine:

Are you seriously equating the ability to donate cash/items to the ability to trade cash/items for items that can only be bought for real-life cash? Those things are not the same. Almost nobody just 'donates' cash, because there's no immediate benefit to be gained (yes, it's nice, but that's it). You are effectively saying that all the current trades of gp-for-bonds would have been gp-for-nothing trades if this update hadn't happened. It's hard to take that statement seriously.

 

Yes, I am comparing the two. If you have a real life friend that starts the game and you give his new character 20 million gp and in return of your help he gives you $15 which you use to pay for members then you just simulated exactly what is happening with bonds. More likely, your friend would not pay you money and you're just being a good bud helping him get started but the friendship is a real world aspect affecting the ingame economy.

 

Now, I don't know where you get the "Almost nobody just 'donates' cash" statistic from but I doubt it. I've given gp to people I knew in real life that played this game. I just don't do it for strangers. The bond situation now allows strangers to do for each other what before was primarily limited to good friends. You may not like the comparison because it now happens on such a scale as to dwarf the previous situation. However, bonds create a method that matches another situation where players in real life exchanged cash then traded gp in the game. Jagex is wagering that bonds will compensate enough to remove that market.

 

Time will tell. I think Jagex needs to create a bulk redeem process that offers bonus spins and runecoins at 80% of the Jagex store direct bulk buy bonuses. Reason being bonds are tempting to trade for GP if you want to use it for membership, spins or runecoins. You can only have so much membership (maybe 25 bonds). I just think that they need to make bulk spins and runecoins just as attractive to encourage players to redeem bonds for those further stimulating the economy.

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Was anyone else waiting for the, "It's not an in-game advantage - it's a convenience"?

 

This is actually a really easy topic to address.

 

Is RuneScape still a game you find fun?

 

If yes, keep playing.

 

If no, stop playing.

 

It really is that simple.

Now factor in thousands of hours of people's invested time - suddenly it's not that simple.

Cut your losses, dude, cut your losses :D

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I've been in the same mind set of the solo play. Have been a solo player since 2002 and only occasionally partake in group stuff. Mostly dungeoneering and that's it. Much prefer solo

 

 

You aren't playing a single player game though. Yes you aren't playing in a group, but your actions impact the larger game world. You rely on the larger game world to provide things for you, and you compete against other players. And you likely have friends on the game, even if you don't participate in larger group activities.

 

A true single player game has vastly different requirements to an online multiplayer game.

 

---

 

As for equating bonds with donations, that is not true. Donations are a different beast, compared to bonds. Bonds are similar to RWT. Your example of a friend giving 20m to help a friend out, and then that person gives them 15$ to pay for membership is an example of RWT.

 

Also, bonds enable someone to legally trade real world cash for advantage in the game. But players were already *able* to do this before. Jagex is unable to prevent everyone from RWT, or prevent the websites from existing.

 

This demand will be satisfied, and Jagex cannot stop it. Clearly people want it, even though some of us don't like it. Adding bonds simply lets Jagex get a slice of the pie, and maybe help reduce the effective cash "in flow" which results from them adding bots and gold farming specifically for the purpose of selling it. (which does cause inflation, although all the gold has to be generated from somewhere) It's a better solution than Jagex selling gold directly. (though they are somewhat close with things like Squeel)

 

The (non)existence of bonds would not have any impact on whether people can buy advantage in the game (as that is *already* possible, and people *already* do it) This means I don't think debating the ethics of Jagex adding bonds is as simple as saying they shouldn't do it.

 

They have already proven they cannot stop gold farming from existing. Nor can they stop gold selling from large rich players, or gold buying from a large portion of the community. This RWT aspect *will* exist whether Jagex is involved or not.

 

Given this scenario, I believe it is far better for Jagex to be involved than to stay out of it, as they are capable of helping manage it, and potentially benefiting the game.

 

Also, the whole idea that microtransactions are bad for the game, or that being able to buy your advantage is that bad... It has worked in other games, and it is quite successful. People seem to enjoy it that way..

 

@Meirin: In an ideal world I would love an online game which did not have an impact from real world circumstance. However this is not really feasible. free time already has an impact on how well you can do (those who have jobs or lives which enable more free time allows further progression!) As for the other things, there are already plenty of mechanisms for a richer person to gain more advantage than a poorer person (even though they are against the rules) and the enforcement of this rule is not feasible as proven by the fact that Jagex cannot (or won't) ban everyone for RWT.

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Was anyone else waiting for the, "It's not an in-game advantage - it's a convenience"?

 

 

This is actually a really easy topic to address.

 

Is RuneScape still a game you find fun?

 

If yes, keep playing.

 

If no, stop playing.

 

It really is that simple.

Now factor in thousands of hours of people's invested time - suddenly it's not that simple.
Yet, I have just under 300 days of play time spread across ten years and I'd have no qualms with leaving the second I didn't find the game fun.

 

The types of players that play despite hating either Jagex or certain types of content must either be narcicisstic or addicted. They can say they stick around because they still enjoy aspects of the game, but judging by forum posts here and on RSOF, people spend more time complaining than they do playing.

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Jagex, i love you..

and love takes everything from you to get it.

that's why i am spending my money on you, to build our relationship, our love.

please find more ways to take my money

 

I LOVE YOU!

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Jagex, i love you..

and love takes everything from you to get it.

that's why i am spending my money on you, to build our relationship, our love.

please find more ways to take my money

 

I LOVE YOU!

idk sounds like a pretty toxic relationship to me

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But is it really 'corruption'?

 

Or is someone viewing thing as a business exactly what a game like Runescape needs to survive?

It's all very well making an amazing game but if the business is not viable it will flicker out and die as quickly as it was made.

 

I'd much rather have an amazing game with longevity that has a few RWT-esque features I'm not a huge fan of than one that is a forgetten relic because it wasn't financially viable.

It depends where the corruption is.

 

If Mod MMG was getting a bigger paycheck each time he were to increase income dramaticaly then he may get the idea "Never mind the game, I want my bonus'"

 

 

On the other hand, if the additional profits were rolled back into the game, then we'd have to consider the good it does for the game via more resources and a bigger budget. One could argue that funding such investments provides significant benefits to RuneScape's long-term health, easily outweighing the moral cost of allowing some players to trade money for time--which they could already do.

 

 

People made the same argument for SoF, which has been out for what, 18 months now? And I am yet to see an increase in the quality of updates we have received.

Asmodean <3

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But is it really 'corruption'?

 

Or is someone viewing thing as a business exactly what a game like Runescape needs to survive?

It's all very well making an amazing game but if the business is not viable it will flicker out and die as quickly as it was made.

 

I'd much rather have an amazing game with longevity that has a few RWT-esque features I'm not a huge fan of than one that is a forgetten relic because it wasn't financially viable.

It depends where the corruption is.

 

If Mod MMG was getting a bigger paycheck each time he were to increase income dramaticaly then he may get the idea "Never mind the game, I want my bonus'"

 

On the other hand, if the additional profits were rolled back into the game, then we'd have to consider the good it does for the game via more resources and a bigger budget. One could argue that funding such investments provides significant benefits to RuneScape's long-term health, easily outweighing the moral cost of allowing some players to trade money for time--which they could already do.

 

People made the same argument for SoF, which has been out for what, 18 months now? And I am yet to see an increase in the quality of updates we have received.

 

I'd say the quality of updates has increased immensely this past year; quest in particular are much richer rather than just cheesy do this do that do the other.

A lot of graphics have been seriously ramped out quality wise too.

 

Plus we know from their last financial reports Jagex posted their best profit for a while, but then reinvested all of that profit and a substantial amount more in to the business; so we can categorically say they are not padding their pay cheques they are pumping money in to growing the teams and the studio as a whole.

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