17 March 2014 Mahjarrat Memories

[W aldo]

Wow this a new debate, intricate lore details, very refreshing from the usual high-level player debates haha.

[HunterDexter]

On the existence of Mah: when you power up the World Gate, you go through 3 worlds, the world with the flames, Abbinah and New Domina. Just like all other worlds, they have a runic symbol on the Gate. These symbols are, in the order you power the Gate up: M,A,H.

Nice little teaser in a teaser. :p

[Sylpheed]

The fact that Zaros doesn't question the existence of Mah basically flat out tells us that she's real.

[Rena]

The fact that Zaros doesn't question the existence of Mah basically flat out tells us that she's real.

What benefit would he gain from questioning her existence?

 

Oh and false exclusionary disjunct.

[Yoko Kurama]

 

The fact that Zaros doesn't question the existence of Mah basically flat out tells us that she's real.

What benefit would he gain from questioning her existence?

 

Oh and false exclusionary disjunct.

 

 

Yes, Sylpheed's reason for not doubting Mah's existence (namely that if Zaros thinks she exist, we should too) was wrong, but his conclusion is right. We have no reason to doubt that Mah, at one point existed, and probably still exists. J-Mods have definitely confirmed this -- Mah is not merely a myth (as Wahiesetal might think). Indeed, no one, not me nor Sy, in this thread doubted that Mah exists -- though there is some doubt as to whether the Muspah existed.

[Rena]

I'm not doing that Mah exist(s/ed) but the reasoning behind coming to that conclusion was poor.

 

I kind of dislike how Jmods release information/lore not gainable from in-game. Kind of ruins the suspension of belief and the immersion into the world when the player can act like a God and know things the player should not know in game.

 

For instance, with Sliskes' mastery of shadows - what if "Zaros" was just one of his puppets and he is using this "Zaros" to control the other Zarosian Mahjarrat for his own benefit so that he can rise to become a new god? And he is trying to do so without the Stone of Jas so he is getting the gods to fight amongst each other in hopes he can claim an elder artefact for his true ascendancy. He doesn't want to make the Dragonkin stronger by using the Stone because he has already seen what happens to a Mahjarrat who uses the stone before ascending to godhood (Lucien, unlike Zamorak who is still alive)

 

Well... that's ruled out because Jagex has explicitely stated that Zaros is Zaros and that Zaros will be returning in the next quest.

 

Kinda... kills the fun of speculation.

[Sy_Accursed]

I'm not doing that Mah exist(s/ed) but the reasoning behind coming to that conclusion was poor.

 

I kind of dislike how Jmods release information/lore not gainable from in-game. Kind of ruins the suspension of belief and the immersion into the world when the player can act like a God and know things the player should not know in game.

 

For instance, with Sliskes' mastery of shadows - what if "Zaros" was just one of his puppets and he is using this "Zaros" to control the other Zarosian Mahjarrat for his own benefit so that he can rise to become a new god? And he is trying to do so without the Stone of Jas so he is getting the gods to fight amongst each other in hopes he can claim an elder artefact for his true ascendancy. He doesn't want to make the Dragonkin stronger by using the Stone because he has already seen what happens to a Mahjarrat who uses the stone before ascending to godhood (Lucien, unlike Zamorak who is still alive)

 

Well... that's ruled out because Jagex has explicitely stated that Zaros is Zaros and that Zaros will be returning in the next quest.

 

Kinda... kills the fun of speculation.

 

Y'know what else kinda ruled that out?

 

Zaros being referenced as a God in the god letters and in cryptic in-game stuff prior the the Mahjaratt even existing as a concept within the game and well before they were given any tie to Zaros.

 

Zaros as the 'dead' must not be spoken about god is a fact left over from the Andrew Gower original lore, back when Sara, Zammy and Guthix were 3 brothers who claimed to have created the world.

[Sy_Accursed]

Except, the Mahjarrat do not consider murder, even of their own kin, to be some sort of sin, or something to atone for. In fact, they openly celebrate culling the weak of their species, and social Darwinism. They also consider violence and the rule of the strong to be the 'natural' way. So why would they be the atoning for the loss of a life, when they don't view it as a bad thing? It's far more likely, and strongly supported, that the term 'propitiation' in this context refers to them trying to appease Mah. The energy used for this propitiation is the energy of the sacrificed Mahjarrat (we know that upon death they release bursts of energy), and it is this same energy that they consume in modern-day rituals. This energy, again, comes from the sacrificed Mahjarrat, and as far as the books attest, has no link whatsoever to whatever energy they might need to procreate.

 

There is no reference anywhere that the energy used for propitiation was the same energy that they used for procreation. Nowhere. Zaros, again, does not comment on procreation. Nowhere does he mention that the energy used to procreate is what is being used to sustain them on Gelinor. There is no reference at all to the propitiation in the Ritual of Rejevention having anything to do with the sacrifice used in the ritual that is killed. The most clear reading seems to be that the Ritual of Rejuvenation sacrifices one Mahjarrat as an act of propitiation to appease a hostile god. 

 

As for twisting words, I am not sure where I have done that (perhaps misunderstood, yes). You made a claim that turned out to be untrue (an honest mistake) about Zaros hypothesizing something. You refuse to document this, or acknowledge that you made a mistake, and keep trying to recton your original misunderstanding. 

 

But they don't need to consider it a sin for the theory to pan out, if the energy now being used for regeneration was always propitiation via new life it'd just be an inbuilt result of their culture regardless of their opinion on it. Plus we must not forget I am not saying this is something they knowingly do and the comment comes from Zaros so the word choice is not reflective of how they think about.

 

Equally I am not saying there is a specific reference it is used that way - like I said it is not there in black and white that is why it is a THEORY and not a fact. It is based on the facts we do have and filling in grey areas with THEORY that does not contradict these facts.

The simpler reading has just as much not there in black and white theory to it - Zaros does not say the energy was given to Mah that is purely theory based on his wording.

The fact the energy ever went anywhere other than into the mahjaratt themselves to regenerate them is also just a theory with no evidence either way since nothing in the memories says where it went.

etc.

 

I'll admitted when I first posted early in the morning I made a booboo in overstating my theory as fact, but I am not retconing anything - I have a well thought through theory that does not contradict any single fact of information we have been given thus far. It may not be the most straight forward reading of the facts or the least complicated theory to fill in some of the blanks, but it does not contradict anything so there is no reason to claim it is wrong or breaks anything.

 

I am not one to make up a crack-pot theory for the sake of it regardless of lore, I'm a lore nerd if I make up a theory I am careful that it does account for all we have been told and does not contradict any of it, even if it uses a more nuanced interpretation (which tbf isn't unheard of as Jagex have used such twists when expanding lore on several occasions).

 

Yes by all means the simpler reading exists and is perfectly valid but it is not 'more strongly supported' it has just as many grey areas and until such a time as some of these grey areas are filled in in such a way that makes 1 theory impossible they both rely on the same evidence just interpreted differently.

[Saradomin_Mage]

But they don't need to consider it a sin for the theory to pan out, if the energy now being used for regeneration was always propitiation via new life it'd just be an inbuilt result of their culture regardless of their opinion on it.

Why do you keep coming back to this? It was solely propitiation and nothing to do with procreation at all. Procreation was the Ritual of Enervation, i.e. copulating during earthquakes. The Ritual of Rejuvenation was purely to propitiate Mah. When someone ends up on the marker stone, there is no new baby Mahjarrat that suddenly pops out.

[Sylpheed]

Calling it now, FotG is going to reveal that Zaros himself is an Elder artifact.

[Ts_Stormrage]

YOU'RE A HALLOWCRUX, ZAROS!

[Rena]

 

I'm not doing that Mah exist(s/ed) but the reasoning behind coming to that conclusion was poor.

 

I kind of dislike how Jmods release information/lore not gainable from in-game. Kind of ruins the suspension of belief and the immersion into the world when the player can act like a God and know things the player should not know in game.

 

For instance, with Sliskes' mastery of shadows - what if "Zaros" was just one of his puppets and he is using this "Zaros" to control the other Zarosian Mahjarrat for his own benefit so that he can rise to become a new god? And he is trying to do so without the Stone of Jas so he is getting the gods to fight amongst each other in hopes he can claim an elder artefact for his true ascendancy. He doesn't want to make the Dragonkin stronger by using the Stone because he has already seen what happens to a Mahjarrat who uses the stone before ascending to godhood (Lucien, unlike Zamorak who is still alive)

 

Well... that's ruled out because Jagex has explicitely stated that Zaros is Zaros and that Zaros will be returning in the next quest.

 

Kinda... kills the fun of speculation.

 

Y'know what else kinda ruled that out?

 

Zaros being referenced as a God in the god letters and in cryptic in-game stuff prior the the Mahjaratt even existing as a concept within the game and well before they were given any tie to Zaros.

 

Zaros as the 'dead' must not be spoken about god is a fact left over from the Andrew Gower original lore, back when Sara, Zammy and Guthix were 3 brothers who claimed to have created the world.

 

God letters are not strictly canon. Guthix's mannerism of speech and referring to the other gods as "brothers". Saradomin calls Guthix his brother, which could be seen as a priest/Christianity relation thing, but why would Guthix call Saradomin or Zamorak "brother"? Oh, I have the answer for this though.

 

As to thy secondary question, the term of brother towards my fellow deities is an honorific rather than a familial one, for our past ancestrys are mightily different, yet I call all deities on this world brother or sister, for this is the closest term that humans have to describe our relationship.

Except in game he does not refer to them as "brother" but rather by name directly.

 

Oh and

 

 

I hath no race, I am unique in all of the worlds. I am simply Guthix.

Naragi. As well as being "unique in all of the worlds' ... except the Naragi homeworld of course.

 

Annnnd

 

 

One full year of this planet is the equivalent of one heart beat for myself, although the parallel is flawed for I hath no heart and do not breathe

 

 

"I feel my heart grow heavy and my breathes grow longer."

 

But I hope Guthix was right and the God letters are canon.

 

I exist because I must exist; if I did not, then I would be created again, for the universe requires balance in all things.

Because then he isn't really dead.

 

 

Oh but Jagex themselves says they are non-canon:

http://services.runescape.com/m=rswiki/en/God_Letters

 

The God Letters were written for fun and the information contained in them is not to be considered canon unless otherwise mentioned.

 

[Urza285]

He could be stating that another god of his nature would come... someone who wishes to push out all other gods for the sake of balance.

[Rena]

He could be stating that another god of his nature would come... someone who wishes to push out all other gods for the sake of balance.

It still doesn't help the God letters state that they aren't canon.

[Alg]

Even in they were canon, virtually all of today's lore contradicts them.

[Urza285]

You also have to consider their "big book of lore" has to be interpreted and 'fleshed' out.

[kamil1210]

this is very good “Lore-focused Divination Skilling Update” with cool rewards

[Kimberly]

[hide]

so is tumeken dead??

 

This raises so many possibilities. Did amaskut go loco after he died, or before? If after, was it because the other gods refused to seek vengance against zaros and that's why she's going after them all. If in the desert quest we stop amascut does that mean the desert gods won't fight against zaros and just go for non intervention?

 

[/hide]

[hide]The Amascut we've seen in that prince ali reworked quest is vastly different from what we saw talked briefly about in the MM lore. She seemed morally outraged by the culture of the Mahjarrat and seemed to leave in disgust. It's possible that when she went to the volcano on Freneskrakekeke, she was corrupted somehow by the spirit of Mother Mah? This would put her "crazy" period as you described it before Tumeken's sacrifice. Why the deity would choose Amascut isn't clear, though, so the theory is a bit shaky.[/hide]

[Saradomin_Mage]

http://services.runescape.com/m=rswiki/en/World_Gate

[khandajatt]

This so called "mini quest" was ridiculously long! And i wished that the exp was open fot free to use in any skill, or atleast a small portion of it should have been.

[Sy_Accursed]

 

 

I'm not doing that Mah exist(s/ed) but the reasoning behind coming to that conclusion was poor.

 

I kind of dislike how Jmods release information/lore not gainable from in-game. Kind of ruins the suspension of belief and the immersion into the world when the player can act like a God and know things the player should not know in game.

 

For instance, with Sliskes' mastery of shadows - what if "Zaros" was just one of his puppets and he is using this "Zaros" to control the other Zarosian Mahjarrat for his own benefit so that he can rise to become a new god? And he is trying to do so without the Stone of Jas so he is getting the gods to fight amongst each other in hopes he can claim an elder artefact for his true ascendancy. He doesn't want to make the Dragonkin stronger by using the Stone because he has already seen what happens to a Mahjarrat who uses the stone before ascending to godhood (Lucien, unlike Zamorak who is still alive)

 

Well... that's ruled out because Jagex has explicitely stated that Zaros is Zaros and that Zaros will be returning in the next quest.

 

Kinda... kills the fun of speculation.

 

Y'know what else kinda ruled that out?

 

Zaros being referenced as a God in the god letters and in cryptic in-game stuff prior the the Mahjaratt even existing as a concept within the game and well before they were given any tie to Zaros.

 

Zaros as the 'dead' must not be spoken about god is a fact left over from the Andrew Gower original lore, back when Sara, Zammy and Guthix were 3 brothers who claimed to have created the world.

 

God letters are not strictly canon. Guthix's mannerism of speech and referring to the other gods as "brothers". Saradomin calls Guthix his brother, which could be seen as a priest/Christianity relation thing, but why would Guthix call Saradomin or Zamorak "brother"? Oh, I have the answer for this though.

 

As to thy secondary question, the term of brother towards my fellow deities is an honorific rather than a familial one, for our past ancestrys are mightily different, yet I call all deities on this world brother or sister, for this is the closest term that humans have to describe our relationship.

Except in game he does not refer to them as "brother" but rather by name directly.

 

Oh and

 

 

I hath no race, I am unique in all of the worlds. I am simply Guthix.

Naragi. As well as being "unique in all of the worlds' ... except the Naragi homeworld of course.

 

Annnnd

 

 

One full year of this planet is the equivalent of one heart beat for myself, although the parallel is flawed for I hath no heart and do not breathe

 

 

"I feel my heart grow heavy and my breathes grow longer."

 

But I hope Guthix was right and the God letters are canon.

 

I exist because I must exist; if I did not, then I would be created again, for the universe requires balance in all things.

Because then he isn't really dead.

 

 

Oh but Jagex themselves says they are non-canon:

http://services.runescape.com/m=rswiki/en/God_Letters

 

The God Letters were written for fun and the information contained in them is not to be considered canon unless otherwise mentioned.

 

 

 

Yes the God Letters are not strictly canon but the example of Zaros must not being spoke of does not contradict any more recent additions and is the most finite example of the concept so there is no reason to not use it as an example point, especially as I even referenced the fact other in-game stuff follows the same line and that it was a leftover from the god letters lore days.

 

They are a perfectly fine source for filling in grey details as long as you do so with the awareness that anything newer entirely supercedes them and is not a contradiction. The same as pretty much any fandom universe does - non-canon sources are allowed to fill in grey details, as long as said detail does not contradict anything from the official canon and is only valid so long as this remains true.

 

Also side bar your point about the 'I have no race' comment is invalid. It is established in the current lore gods have no race and they stop being of their race as soon as they ascend. Guthix was not a Naragi, Saradomin is not a human, Armadyl is not an Aviansie, Zamorak is not a Mahajaratt, Marimbo is not a monkey, Brassica Prime is not a cabbage. They originally were these races/things but after ascending they are not anymore. Plus his being unique in all the worlds is not an issue either - he was the only Tier 2 god to have ascended instead of being created making him unique and he was the only Naragi origin god as all the others died so he was unique in that respect too. Where as other gods are not unique due to sharing tiers of ascension and most if not all of them their origin race still lives so they could be made less unique by another ascending. So all told that passage holds up even in todays lore.

[Blutters]

So, ever since Dungeoneering was released I swore Stalkers were considered a kind of demon, and while reading the lore for this miniquest, I totally expected that they would be the Chthonian race mentioned throughout, from how the Chthonians were described.

However, on the RSWiki I see no mention of Stalkers actually being demons anywhere...

Am I the only one who was under this impression?  :wacko:

[Wkw]

So, ever since Dungeoneering was released I swore Stalkers were considered a kind of demon, and while reading the lore for this miniquest, I totally expected that they would be the Chthonian race mentioned throughout, from how the Chthonians were described.

However, on the RSWiki I see no mention of Stalkers actually being demons anywhere...

Am I the only one who was under this impression?  :wacko:

You make a good point..

[Sy_Accursed]

Alas based on the existing lore Stalkers do not fit the bill at all.

 

We are told about how they followed Bilrach from their homeworld without a even a passing notion of the contract stuff Chthonians liked. Plus it is somewhat implied given their close relations during the empire most Mahjaratt would have an awareness of what Pandemonium and its people were like, which you'd think would make the journals.

 

Then we are also told in the civil war the chthonian were all but wiped out with the remnants going into the abyss - and those that did survive were lesser, animalistic ones not talking planning ones. Stalkers having a homeworld to come from is contradictory to this.

 

The only 3 confirmed chthonian groups all equally have a strong grounding in the lore.

Virii were dog-like pack animals that some kept as pets and such - this fits for both Nex's pack of virii (bloodreavers) and for Ocellus who was Zaros' pet.

Then a summoning experiment at Viggora's folly managed to drag Abyssal demons and bloodvelds out.

Presumably by the abyss link walkers leeches and guardians are chthonian though no confirmation.

 

Essentially all told as things stands their origins seem questionable for them to be demons at all and the state of the chthonians does not support a group like the stalkers existing. Plus personally the setup of dg doesn't imply they are demons imo - the bosses are such defined blocks of the mages, the behemoths, the stalkers and the demons would be kinda odd if the stalkers were demons too.

 

I mean they could be demons, heck they could be surviving infernals we are told nothing about or a splinter group of chthonians. Its not impossible, but where things current stand factual they are not and they don't seem overly likely to be chthonians, even if they are a demonic race.

[Urza285]

The stalkers from lore are psyonic beings with magical properties. They create nests and are immensely diverse much like the behemoths.