Homosexuality - Gay Bashing?

[deloriagod]

 

I think one of the important things to note here is that sexual orientation is not an opinion or a decision, but rather a biological component that we have very little self-control over.

 

 

 

It can be compared to skin colour. Is it immoral to be born with black skin instead of white?

 

I agree that people have very little self-control over their sexual orientation. But different people lack self-control in different areas. Bisexuals have an easy time choosing an orientation than a gay person and a straight person has a harder time choosing orientation than a bisexual person. But lack of self-control is not an excuse in society.

 

 

 

 

Who's to say we choose sexual orientation? Who's to say what causes us to like the opposite/same sex isn't dormant until we become sexually mature? I know I didn't choose to be bisexual. I didn't decide one day that I liked guy and girls. I always had those feelings, it just took me a while to come to terms with it an accept it.

[insane]

What do you mean by "normal species functioning", and how does it apply to homosexuality and not blindness?

Blindness is an impairment. Explain how homosexuality is an impairment.

 

 

 

Blindness is a visual impairment, and homosexuality is a reproductive impairment. Surely from an evolutionary standpoint homosexuality can be viewed as a defect?

[warren211]

"Let he who is without sin cast the first stone"

 

 

 

I don't support gay marriage because, being a Catholic and in my own moral beliefs, I just don't agree with it. but you don't see me crusading against them. Hate gays? leave them alone and get on with your life. their marriage doesn't affect you.

[Solidus_77]

How do you compare blindness with being gay? You can become blind but you can't become gay so there's a difference right there. Blindness is a physical malfunction while being gay is not physical.

 

 

 

Surely from an evolutionary standpoint homosexuality can be viewed as a defect?

 

 

 

So because they have a different sexual orientation they are unable to preform their duties as a human being? Not quite.

[deloriagod]

What do you mean by "normal species functioning", and how does it apply to homosexuality and not blindness?

Blindness is an impairment. Explain how homosexuality is an impairment.

 

 

 

Blindness is a visual impairment, and homosexuality is a reproductive impairment. Surely from an evolutionary standpoint homosexuality can be viewed as a defect?

 

 

 

From a purely evolutionary standpoint, yes I can see how it could be viewed as a (reproductive) defect. However, seeing the populations and problems in the world at this point, I wouldn't call it a defect. We have plenty of people with many many more on the way. We have overpopulation in areas and we're using a lot of our natural resources. In my eyes, we're f*ing ourselves up at this point. We already have a problem with the o-zone and global warming (pretend for a moment this actually exists) so who's to say we're even going to exist in 200 years? 100 years? Would homosexuality still be seen as a defect if reproduction wasn't necessary anymore?

 

 

 

I think I'm rambling so I'm going to stop there.. :-k

[Cyco_Reborn]

Homosexuality, from a scientific and evolutionary point of view, could be seen as a form of natural selection ie. the weak resort to homosexuality and thus don't produce any young whom would be weak and affect the plight of the species. When I was reading an article in a New Scientist magazine it said something about Humans naturally and subconciously avoiding those whom may carry disease, such as homosexuals and the overweight, for those were signs of ill health and disease.

 

 

 

From a cultural point of view it is sometimes seen as tradition in certain cultures, particularly african tribes, where homosexuality is involved in reliogious ceremonies and rituals.

 

 

 

Anyway, from my point of view I fully support the gay/bi movement, as I am Bisexual.

[LilDefenders]

I think it's all right to be gay/bi/lesbian doesn't matter what your preference is to me. I myself have a gay brother and well of course I back him up because I love him, but even before I found out that he was I didn't think it was that big of a deal. I 100% back up same sex marriage. That's probably why I'm not religious because I think what the bible says is full of [cabbage].

[Satenza]

Would you say it's natural in the same way blindness is natural?

 

 

 

That's more of a departure from normal species functioning though. Homosexuality is just a variation of an attribute of normal species functioning.

 

 

 

What do you mean by "normal species functioning", and how does it apply to homosexuality and not blindness?

 

 

 

Blindness is a lack of something physical whereas homosexuality is not a lack of anything substantial. It affects only which sex you prefer, it does not render anything useless like blindness does to sight. It perhaps makes your attraction to the opposite sex non-existence and this is why it is a variation, just as your attraction to the same sex is absent.

 

 

 

You can clearly say that homosexuality is a negative attribute from a hard-evolutionary line, which I guess is what you were saying earlier. I think this type of proposition can never really be fully explained from a purely scientific viewpoint because it never offers an analysis of a situation. Just like I could say that the reason I am sat in my chair is because my legs are bent and muscles contracted. It tells me why I am sat in my chair but it does not give a satisfactory answer.

 

 

 

Regardless I do not judge people on whether they accept homosexuality or not. As I believe everything is relative, its true homosexuality could be negative just in the same way being straight could be negative depending on the situation we are thrown into.

[Nadril]

What do you mean by "normal species functioning", and how does it apply to homosexuality and not blindness?

Blindness is an impairment. Explain how homosexuality is an impairment.

 

 

 

Blindness is a visual impairment, and homosexuality is a reproductive impairment. Surely from an evolutionary standpoint homosexuality can be viewed as a defect?

 

 

 

Being homosexual doesn't mean that you simply become in able to make a baby. If the world some how depended on a homosexual person having a child (for some strange reason, even though overpopulation is often times an issue) that person could still make a baby with another female/male (depending on their gender). They may not like it, but they aren't completely unable to do so.

[venomai]

What do you mean by "normal species functioning", and how does it apply to homosexuality and not blindness?

Blindness is an impairment. Explain how homosexuality is an impairment.

 

 

 

Blindness is a visual impairment, and homosexuality is a reproductive impairment. Surely from an evolutionary standpoint homosexuality can be viewed as a defect?

 

Blindness impairs vision. On the other hand, homosexuality does not impair reproductive ability. I don't see what you hope to achieve by comparing the two.

 

 

 

And by the same logic, you could say all men have the reproductive impairment/defect of not being able to reproduce. So what?

 

 

 

Homosexuality, from a scientific and evolutionary point of view, could be seen as a form of natural selection ie. the weak resort to homosexuality and thus don't produce any young whom would be weak and affect the plight of the species. When I was reading an article in a New Scientist magazine it said something about Humans naturally and subconciously avoiding those whom may carry disease, such as homosexuals and the overweight, for those were signs of ill health and disease.

 

No -- homosexuality is not seen as a disease in any sort of evolutionary or scientific point of view. :| Refer to warri0r's nicely cited post on page 2 for a more "scientific" view on homosexuality.

[warri0r45]

Its unnatural to be gay whether you like it or not.

 

 

 

Why do people continually say crap like this? It isn't 'unnatural' to be gay. It happens in nature, both wild and civilized, and by the dictates of nature, i.e. by biological and environmental factors.

 

 

 

Would you say it's natural in the same way blindness is natural?

 

 

 

Not in that respect, no. If IÃÆââââ¬Å¡Ã¬Ã¢ââ¬Å¾Ã¢m reading it right youÃÆââââ¬Å¡Ã¬Ã¢ââ¬Å¾Ã¢re saying blindness as opposed to sight is unnatural as homosexuality as opposed to hetero is unnatural.

 

 

 

I'd call it natural the same way different skin colours are natural.

 

 

 

But then I read this and I think true, in this respect it's natural in the same way different skin colours are - you can't control it or choose to be one orientation or the other. That's the point I was making. I wouldn't call peoples condition 'natural' or 'unnatural' based on how malfunctional they are so as to stigmatize blind people, etc, although I think you could probably define malfunction or abnormality unnatural on a technicality. Either way homosexuality doesnÃÆââââ¬Å¡Ã¬Ã¢ââ¬Å¾Ã¢t mean your bits fall of or you stop producing sperm hence perhaps your analogy is more accurate when comparing sterility to non-sterility?

 

 

 

Ok, Ive seen points stating that being gay is ok becuase Its there choice, or gentics.

 

 

 

What about paedophiles, You could state the same points.

 

 

 

What about Bestiality? Exact same statments can be applied.

 

 

 

Where is the line drawn? If not at homosexuality then where? Sex is for Procreation, thats why kids keep having kids. what kinda morals are people teaching there kids? Yes hating people for the way they are isnt good, but you have to put ur foot down when things become unhealthy for society and people.

 

 

 

Just becauce something is seen in nature doesnt mean we need to do it as the items listed above. Ill add canablism to that, Since monkeys eat monkeys then its alright for humans to eat humans?

 

 

 

Here we go. No, I'm not trying to say anything natural is OK. In determining whether it's ok, I'd ask whether it harms people. Does a consenting act between two adults behind closed doors harm anyone? I don't think so. By the way sex isnÃÆââââ¬Å¡Ã¬Ã¢ââ¬Å¾Ã¢t just for procreation.

 

 

 

My argument thus far has been itÃÆââââ¬Å¡Ã¬Ã¢ââ¬Å¾Ã¢s akin to racism discriminating against gays based on sexual orientation as itÃÆââââ¬Å¡Ã¬Ã¢ââ¬Å¾Ã¢s beyond their control. Thankfully, basically everyone in this thread is sensible and doesnÃÆââââ¬Å¡Ã¬Ã¢ââ¬Å¾Ã¢t discriminate merely because homosexuals are of their particular orientation.

[yomom1919]

Not Again...

 

 

 

Any argument that anyone against homosexuality can and will make has already been rebutted in the "Official Anti-Homosexuality Rebuttal Thread", which can be found here: http://forum.tip.it/viewtopic.php?t=689 ... osexuality

[insane]

Being homosexual doesn't mean that you simply become in able to make a baby. If the world some how depended on a homosexual person having a child (for some strange reason, even though overpopulation is often times an issue) that person could still make a baby with another female/male (depending on their gender). They may not like it, but they aren't completely unable to do so.

 

 

 

Say there's two male-female couples. Couple one contains a heterosexual male and female. Couple two contains a homosexual male and female. You have to bet on one of the couples promoting their species through reproduction. You're telling me that you don't obviously bet on couple one? If you do bet on couple one, you're telling me that couple one has an evolutionary advantage over couple two as their genes are passed onwards and the species survives. Of course couple two could reproduce, but are you going to bet on them over couple one? No.

 

 

 

Blindness impairs vision. On the other hand, homosexuality does not impair reproductive ability. I don't see what you hope to achieve by comparing the two.

 

 

 

It totally impairs it. Maybe not to the extent that blindness impairs vision (although 70-80% of blind people can be cured to an extent), but no homosexual animal (besides a human) is going to reproduce. The only reason a homosexual human would reproduce cannot be explained in natural terms. Therefore I don't see how, from a purely evolutionary standpoint, homosexuality is not seen as a defect when the heterosexual gene (if one exists) is much more conducive to the survival of the species?

 

 

 

And by the same logic, you could say all men have the reproductive impairment/defect of not being able to reproduce. So what?

 

 

 

 

That's like saying all ears have the defect of not being able to smell. It's just a stupid statement without any relevancy to this debate.

[MasterMarduk]

Ok, Ive seen points stating that being gay is ok becuase Its there choice, or gentics.

 

 

 

What about paedophiles, You could state the same points.

 

 

 

What about Bestiality? Exact same statments can be applied.

 

Key word here being gentics, I hope you realize.

 

 

 

Where is the line drawn? If not at homosexuality then where? Sex is for Procreation, thats why kids keep having kids. what kinda morals are people teaching there kids? Yes hating people for the way they are isnt good, but you have to put ur foot down when things become unhealthy for society and people.

 

Who in God's name told you the only reason for sex is procreation?

 

 

 

Don't say the Church, 'cause you'd be misinformed if you thought that was the proper source for such a ludicrous belief. I've taken seven years of learning this crap, so don't respond unless you've got some sources to back you up; sex is more than just 'procreation', even the Church testifies to that.

 

 

 

And on top of that, what about homosexuality is "unhealthy for society and people"? I'd love to hear your take on it.

 

 

 

Let see, Boy + Girl = baby.

 

 

 

No, I dont go to church but im also not an atheist. Its just fundiment flaw, For a species to survive they need to procreate and If there procreations are gay then that ends that. Now lets say this becomes on a massive scale. That leads to declining birth rates And not only that it leads to not on men lusting over women but other men as well and fankly ive had enough of that crap too. Thats not to even mention the numbers of guys that dont even come out anyways then catch something and bring it home.

 

 

 

The best way to keep a social structure working and healthy is to have it set to biological norms. Men were made to be with women, Is that so hard to understand? Women + women = adoption, Men + Men = ewww. Bi people lead to problems were they cant marry more then one and so they go off and find the other they want and even some gay people do this as well. That is how meny viruses and and stuff are speard to others through sex with a random person just to get there fix.

 

 

 

Im not saying being gay is "wrong" or you will burn in hell, but Parades and celebrations about it are way to much. If your gay be gay, If your straight be it, if your bi pick one they are both the same. Its just the destruction thats put onto the system when things like these are place on it. I personally dont see why most people are gay, If you look theres plenty of people of the oposite sex that are just as equal to those of the same, same emotions feelling, desires.

 

 

 

Also on the consent thing, In nature theres not much consent. There its all about power and dominance.

[Lenin64]

In before flame war

 

 

 

Men were made to be with women, Is that so hard to understand? Women + women = adoption, Men + Men = ewww. Bi people lead to problems were they cant marry more then one and so they go off and find the other they want and even some gay people do this as well. .

 

This is the worst part of you post. What makes women together better than men together? And as for your stement about bi people, straight people do the same stuff- they;ve even written movies and songs about it. And women were made to be with men, too...

[Nadril]

No, I dont go to church but im also not an atheist. Its just fundiment flaw, For a species to survive they need to procreate and If there procreations are gay then that ends that. Now lets say this becomes on a massive scale. That leads to declining birth rates And not only that it leads to not on men lusting over women but other men as well and fankly ive had enough of that crap too. Thats not to even mention the numbers of guys that dont even come out anyways then catch something and bring it home.

 

 

 

You're assuming for some reason that homosexuality would increase. There is no evidence of homosexuality actually increasing in people over the years, save for maybe more people "coming out" and admitting they are gay after it becomes more accepted. Still its not like a majority of the world population is going to be gay, thats just silly and is a complete dramatization.

 

 

 

 

 

Women + women = adoption, Men + Men = ewww.

 

 

 

The [bleep]? It seems like the ONLY reason you are against homosexuality because it is 'icky', you are perfectly fine with two women why? I mean, why is it not immoral for two females to be gay but immoral for a man to be?

 

 

 

It makes no sense.

 

 

 

 

 

Bi people lead to problems were they cant marry more then one and so they go off and find the other they want and even some gay people do this as well. That is how meny viruses and and stuff are speard to others through sex with a random person just to get there fix.

 

 

 

FALSE. STD's can be transmited through any person, straight gay or bisexual. Their sexual orientation has nothing to do if they will catch a disease or not please stop spreading these blatant propaganda things you hear.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Im not saying being gay is "wrong" or you will burn in hell, but Parades and celebrations about it are way to much.

 

 

 

There are "prides" and celebrations the same way there were marches and movements in the 60's for blacks, its all about getting the same rights as other people. In this case it is the right to get married and to not get discriminated against.

 

 

 

If your gay be gay, If your straight be it, if your bi pick one they are both the same.

 

 

 

Why can't a bi person just be bi?

 

 

 

 

 

Its just the destruction thats put onto the system when things like these are place on it. I personally dont see why most people are gay, If you look theres plenty of people of the oposite sex that are just as equal to those of the same, same emotions feelling, desires.

 

 

 

It's all about what you are sexually attracted to, you have very little to no control over what you are attracted to as a person. It's not as much as the qualities as the other person as just who they are.

 

 

 

I mean, if it was just the qualities someone was interested in than why doesn't everyone just feel sexually atracted to anyone who shares those 'qualities' they are interested in, male or female?

 

 

 

 

 

Also on the consent thing, In nature theres not much consent. There its all about power and dominance.

 

 

 

In the human world however there is consent.

[Rebdragon]

Women + women = adoption, Men + Men = ewww.

 

 

 

The [bleep]? It seems like the ONLY reason you are against homosexuality because it is 'icky', you are perfectly fine with two women why? I mean, why is it not immoral for two females to be gay but immoral for a man to be?

 

 

 

It makes no sense.

 

Isn't it obvious?

 

 

 

His moral dogma must allow for porn.

[1_man_army]

If it doesn't harm me or anyone else, then it should be no concern of me or anyone else. I say live and let live.

[MasterMarduk]

Sorry but the idea of guys at all in a sexual way makes me sick, No i dont think lesbians are better and thats not what I was getting at by that statement. #-o

 

 

 

No I dont watch porn Either :wink:

 

 

 

Ive never seen porn as good for anything.

 

 

 

There Orientation has alot to do with it, When people are attracted to a person in a non "normal"(Like home or Bi) way they will hide it and some will even buy it.

 

 

 

Thats were STD's come in, Not the fact there any Sexual orientation but that they have a will to hide it and that will Progresses STD, through sex with people they dont know.

 

 

 

Bi, Because I dont think a person should have more then 1 sexual partner, It leads to jelousy and all the wonderful things that result from that.

[Lionheart_0]

Anything with [ ] is me [i'm on wii]

Sorry but the idea of guys at all in a sexual way makes me sick, No i dont think [bleep] are better and thats not what I was getting at by that statement. #-o

 

 

 

No I dont watch porn Either :wink:

 

 

 

Ive never seen porn as good for anything.

 

 

 

[i will disregard all that.]

 

 

 

There Orientation has alot to do with it, When people are attacked to a person in a non norm way they will hide it and some will even buy it.

 

 

 

[That sentence dosen't make sense.]

 

 

 

Thats were STD's come in, Not the fact there any Sexual orientation but that they have a will to hide it and that will Progresses STD, through sex with people they dont know.

 

[You still don't get it do you? Homosexuals do not create or transfer Std's. Std's czn infect anyone and anyone has the possibility to transfer them, regardless of orientation]

 

 

 

Bi, Because I dont think a person should have more then 1 sexual partner, It leads to jelousy and all the wonderful things that result from that.

 

 

 

[nazi]

[amoeba_009]

I like what my relegion teacher did last year ( Catholic School) He got an article out of a newspaper, and it was about a sports star saying he wont play on the same team as a gay person, because hes gay. And he took out the word gay, and put in the word black, or african american. Im not saying being gay is a skil colour. But it really made the atricle sound stupid. The ancient greeks and romans did it, heck it was expected of them to. Im not saying everyone should be gay, but be tolerant of others. The only gay people that REALLY piss me off, are the ones who wear their pants so tight and so low, you can see all their junk. Really, its great your gay and all, but not everyone cares to see your penis, or your [wagon] crack. -.-

 

 

 

+ Lolz gay threads back. Now wheres that relegion thread.. :lol:

[Wisp]

Bi doesn't mean multiple partners only that you can be attracted to either sex

[Powman3]

I don't mind gays at all. That's their choice and I respect it (though I would never be attracted to another guy).

[MasterMarduk]

Bi doesn't mean multiple partners only that you can be attracted to either sex

 

 

 

Most Bi People I know get involved with multiple partners, and some even try and find couples. (Yes I do know Bi, and Gay people)

 

 

 

Both of which I personally see is wrong, along with being gay in the first place.

 

 

 

I dont harrass gay people I also dont insult them, I tolerate them.

 

 

 

My best freind happends to be Bi, and she knows I dont approve of it, but we both know that means nothing.

[venomai]

but no homosexual animal (besides a human) is going to reproduce.

 

Isn't the main subject of this thread about human sexual orientation?

 

 

 

And by the same logic, you could say all men have the reproductive impairment/defect of not being able to reproduce. So what?

 

 

That's like saying all ears have the defect of not being able to smell. It's just a stupid statement without any relevancy to this debate.

 

My point was: What the hell does it matter with humans?

 

 

 

I don't see what you are hoping to achieve by pointing this evolutionary impairment out.

 

 

 

PS: Since when do analogies need to be relavent to the topic? :-s