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MUST WATCH: UPDATE: Holland considers virtual theft a crime


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Holland might consider the thefts of virtual goods (aka your stuff in the bank of RS) a punishable crime.

 

 

 

Source: http://www.nos.nl/nosjournaal/artikelen/2008/10/21/211008_virtuele_diefstal.html

 

Holland's main news site.

 

 

 

 

Should the theft of virtual goods be punishable? Today a Judge in Leeuwarden takes a closer look at this question.

 

 

 

"Yes." says the District Attourney, "Because virtual items can be considered goods." And if those goods are taken, it is considered theft, the DA says.

 

 

 

"No." says the lawyer who represents one of the 2 suspects standing trial. "Legally speaking, they aren't goods, so it cannot be stolen. points in a game aren't tangible, because they exist in a non-real world. And how can you steal something that doesn't exist in the real world?"

 

 

 

RuneScape

 

So what is this case about? Two kids, 14 and 15 of age, allegedly forced a 13 year old to come home with them, september last year. There he was beaten, kicked and threatened with a knife.

 

 

 

The jealous suspects wanted the 13 year old to transfer the posessions in a game called RuneScape to their own accounts. Eventually he gave in.

 

 

 

RuneScape is a game in the virtual world on internet. Players create a charachter that can learn skills such as woodcutting, fishing or firemaking. There is also fighting in the game.

 

 

 

Through missions the players can earn experience points and earn money, with which items can be bought. Just like the game Second Life, players to regular day-to-day stuff such as go to the movies or to school. [yeah I didn't get that one either]

 

 

 

You can play the game for free, or pay for an enlarged version. In the latter case you have access to a bigger world and more items.

 

 

 

Worldwide, RuneScape has about 135 million registrars. About 10 million of those play the free version at least once a month. A million more use the pay-to-play version.

 

 

 

Unique

 

Two weeks ago, the suspects heard a punishment demanded against them of 80 hours community service, four weeks of conditional juvenile detention, and a two year trial period. In that demand the act of violence was included.

 

 

 

This particular case is unique. It could be the first time someone will be convicted for stealing virtual goods. And even if the judge decides not to convict the boys, it would be interesting to see if the DA thinks a law needs to be made against stealing virtual goods, making it a punishable crime.

 

 

 

During the court case, the DA referred to the tapping of electricity. it too is not tangible, but stealing it is a punishable crime.

 

 

 

The lawyers of the suspects thought that this was not a good comparisson, because electricity allows you to do things in the real world: turning on a lamp. With virtual goods you cannot do anything in the real world, according to their statements.

 

 

 

It'll be interesting to see how this plays out. Notice that the crime took place during the area where it was still possible to trade everything you have ALL in one go.

 

 

 

Check this post for more information as it is released.

 

 

 

A sidenote though: while this kind of thing is now next to impossible in RS, "virtual goods" is somethign that affects not just RS players, but everyone in other like-minded games and even outside of games. If this becomes a serious issue, it could go as high as the EU's court of justice, turning it quickly into a global matter (not this particular case, but wether or not virtual goods are considered real enough to be punished for if you stole it)....

 

 

 

UPDATE:

 

The suspects have been punished for the specific crime of stealing virtual goods. A giant leap forward according to experts.

 

Dutch article, with a link to the TV segment:

 

http://www.rtl.nl/(/actueel/rtlnieuws/binnenland/articleview/)/components/actueel/rtlnieuws/2008/10_oktober/21/binnenland/1021_1745_virtuele_diefstal_bestraft.xml

 

 

 

 

Is is considered theft if you steal someone elses virtual stuff?

 

 

 

Runescape

 

That question got answered today by a judge in Leeuwarden with a firm YES. Two boys, 14 and 15 of age, have been ordered 160 and 200 hours of community service respectivly, because they co-erced a classmate into giving up their items in RuneScape.

 

 

 

Knife

 

The victim was forcibly brought home with the other 2, and there was beaten, kicked and threatened with a knife. The victim then give the items that he himself worked for to collect, to thetwo other boys.

 

 

 

First Time

 

It was the first time ever that a judge in the Netherlands had to decide wether or not the theft of virtual goods is punishable. The judge decreed that items who only have a value on the internet, should still be considered goods. And therefor the theft of them is punishable.

 

 

 

I have to agree with the experts. "Some things we all think should be punishable [the theft] are finally now considered punishable by law. Just think of virtual books, money, and basicly everything these days that can be done virtually."

 

 

 

Another link (english):

 

http://www.boston.com/news/nation/articles/2008/10/21/dutch_court_convicts_2_of_stealing_virtual_items/

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Rofl, nice.

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Hi,

 

 

 

I just saw this on 'our' news, I was about to ask if someone has seen this too and I can't wait to see the outcome. The boys probably won't be punished, as there is no law for this. But I think after this trial, it will be questionable of there will come a law for this. If it will, probably other countries will follow us in this case. What do you guys think about it?

 

 

 

Grtz,

 

Mr Luth

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I hope it does not happens. It's a game, if we take it that seriously we might as well give up totally on our real life.

 

 

 

Some players can become politicians, some can become attorneys.

 

 

 

Jagex can make a "Runescape Court". Then players who has "Skilled" in being attorneys will defend the charged....

 

 

 

rofl, my point: I hate scamming but the game shouldn't go as far as this.

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It's a bit like saying the MP3's on my ipod are not tangible. Can the theft of my music be regarded as theft? I read somewhere that although you can insure the music player, insurers are refusing to insure the contents i.e the music. I was curious to determine whether proof of what was on the player was the problem or the fact that MP3 is not tangible.

 

 

 

In the same breath, the judge regards virtual money and items as really existing but in the end they are all the property of JaGex and not the person who created the character. (which is why you are not allowed to sell on your character).

 

 

 

Interesting information nevertheless - good read.

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The court of Leeuwarden is NOT in Holland. It is in Friesland, an other province of the Netherlands.

 

I HATE it when my county gets called Holland. Holland is a province, not a country.

 

 

 

O/T: There have been trials alike, not only in the Netherlands IIRC. They are kind of a test case, to see what a judge would say if there really WERE to be a court case. Those brats should get some community service for sinking so low that they would threaten a 13 year old with a knife over some RS pixels. That's the true sad part in this story.

 

 

 

There has been a trial earlier about this guy that " stole" stuff from another online game, Habbo hotel. I'm not sure what came from that....

transcript80.png

 

Other data was removed when acoount got hacked...

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Yeah over the Scamming and Theft charges of the items ingame there SHOULDNT be a punishment really...

 

 

 

But thats NOT the point these two kids have commited the offence of BATTERY, ASSULT and WEILDING A LIFE THREATENING WEAPON!

 

 

 

This sould be taking into account as if it were to happen on the streets for a motive of theft. Just because the items stolen were game related does not justify the crimes mentioned above. These kids should get a year to two years in a juvinille correction facilty, A hefty fine and also some comunity service.

 

 

 

Tbh this sickens me!

 

 

 

Over here in the uk. We have had a program on recently about knife crime urging people to stop it. Do you know how many kids-teens die every week over here of knife wounds?

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There's a serious flaw in these arguments here that the Lawyers are bringing up. Neither of those kids own their accounts or the items on it. Therefore, it's out of their jurisdiction to punish them for a transfer from one account to another, even if it was done maliciously.

 

 

 

Runescape Terms and Conditions (Intellectual Property Rights): You agree that all intellectual property or other rights in any game character, account and items are and will remain our property.

 

 

 

The kids can't be charged with theft and the victim can't charge them with theft because he was never in possession of the goods. Aggravated Assault and/or Assault with a Deadly Weapon, maybe, but the theft charges are inapplicable. Jagex gives you the right to "borrow" the items; you don't own them.

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Wow... just wow...

 

 

 

How people can crawl so low is beyond me.

 

 

 

Threatening a 13 year old kids life for... runescape items?

 

 

 

Virtual goods might not be in the real world, but hell, neither are those kids who wanted to pk and ko that kid for his VIRTUAL items. -.-

 

 

 

They should be punished. Not for stealing that kids items, but because they harrased and threatened him with a knife.

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I thought this thread would rather be like "OMFG the government of Holland/Netherlands stole my RS acc!!!!!"

 

 

 

Firstly, selling of Runescape accounts and gold is legally a service. Its like washing someone's car. Runescape accounts don't exist in real life - car washes don't exist as a matter either.

 

Think of the same case, but replace the Runescape stuff with car washing. :mrgreen:

 

(and now make some conclusions yourself after doing that)

 

 

 

Secondly, threatening with a knife and beating up etc is legally punishable. The Runescape part might even not matter in question if it was a crime or not.

 

 

 

Thirdly, you people view Runescape accounts/gold as something virtual and non-existant. I view it the hard effort to get higher levels, as the hours and days of gameplay you put into it, as something that does exist but just in a different way.

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I agree, and to people saying "Oh but it isn't the real world...", what do you mean? When I play games I'm spending time in the real world, and the games themselves are in the real world too (as electricity making pixels flash across the screen). It should only make sense that stealing virtual items should be punishable, because that is like stealing someone's time into something, just like stealing someone's money off of a bank account (besides, money on a bank account is just pixels isn't it?). I believe there was a TipIt times on this too. I guess you could argue that with a bank account you can buy "real life" things though.

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I remember reading about the incident when it happened :o

 

 

 

I think Holland should consider stealing virtual goods. It could be a nice income for the country to have organized scamming corporations =P~

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The least those teens should be charged for is the beating they gave that poor guy :o. Not so sure how game items can be considered tangible enough. To me virtual crime is only really plausible to prosecute when someone rips off bank accounts online or similar identity theft. Enforcing it on an online game seems to me to be incredibly too harsh. Its like prosecuting the child who says "Finders keepers, losers weepers!" The only discipline that the child should get should come from their parents. In the case of online games, the parents are replaced with the game company. So the game company must enforce the discipline on accounts that have violated the rules and stolen from others. Of course though...in a case where someone was robbed at knife point and beaten violently...the least the assailants should be charged for is assault and battery.

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Jowns everything in RuneScape including the game itself. If someone sells any of that stuff for money then they are elling something that belongs to someone else, so they are effectively selling stolen goods.

 

Theft of intelectual/virtual property is still theft and should be punishable.

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I just saw on TV what the outcome of the trial was.

 

160 hours of work for one guy, 200 hours for the other.

 

 

 

I'll try to find a link to the programme, but chances are it will be placed on the internet tomorrow.

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